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aviatordave
09-10-2006, 05:24 AM
Wattflyer AP, Group Design


Lets face it, winter is on its way and we cant stop it. A lot of us call it building season since the weather does not provide flying conditions.

Im curious in seeing if this forum has enough interest to design and build a common airplane that we can all use for Aerial Photography. This task would take input and dedication from those interested from beginning to end (end being a flyable machine that takes pictures !)

The design would consist of the following:

Aircraft size to match what most forum users have on hand (motor / prop, battery, ESC, camera, servos)
Material to build aircraft (foam or balsa / lite ply)
Tools to build aircraft (table saw, hot wire, glue, hobby knives - maybe share some burden for others)
Computer Aided Design (could be as simple as a hand drawn print to real CAD)
Time and Dedication


For people with no computer design skills (such as myself) I have found this program to be very useful:

Google Sketch (http://sketchup.google.com/download.html) (18 meg download its worth it!)

And I invested about 20 minutes of my time to go through the three Sketch Tutorials here:

Google Sketch Tutorial (http://sketchup.google.com/tutorials.html)(3 tutorials)

Here is what I did this afternoon with an idea I have had bouncing around in my head, the pictures are below.

So if anyone is interested, please chime in and try your hand at a design. If this doesnt pan out, Ill just continue it on my own.but it would be a whole lot more fun with more people!

Dave

ForestCam
09-10-2006, 08:58 AM
Here's mine so far. I've stuck with a Slow Stick theme. The camera will be mounted on the front boom.

Warden
09-10-2006, 12:18 PM
I've thought about building my own design but never took it so far that I put "pencil to paper" so to speak. My thoughts on a good AP platform would be that it be of high wing (no wing struts), pusher design and the camera would be located in a cut-out in the fuselage ala Magpie.

The pusher design would keep the prop out of the way if you wanted to take forward facing shots. If you lost control and the plane hit a car, person, house, etc. it would be soft foam (or balsa) making the first contact not the "pointy" motor and spinning prop. And, depending on the weight of the camera and the AUW of the plane, a pusher design would lend itself very well to hand catch landings.

The camera would be mounted in a cutout in the fuselage so that it would be surrounded and protected by the fuselage structure. Provisions would have to me made to sling the camera under the fuselage in the event that forward facing shots were needed.

Flight controls would be three channel with a fourth channel being flaps if they were deemed necessary. The wing would be a polyhedral undercambered design for high lift and good slow speed manueverability.

The weight and size of the camera will determine, to a large extent, the size and power requirements of the plane. In that respect, a "one size fits all" airplane may not work for everyone.

AviatorDave, Great idea! It'll be interesting to see what kind of design comes out of this.

aviatordave
09-10-2006, 09:11 PM
Forest, nice plane....alot of similiar looks, you made an airfoil...I thought about doing that. Warden has some good ideas, alot of what we want can be implemented easily.

Anyone else out there wanna take a try? Dont be shy...you can always use this plane for a lazy day flyer and put a camera on it later.

Dave

ForestCam
09-10-2006, 09:15 PM
Got some more details done on it, still no camera though.

BTW if anyone wants them I've got a lightweight wheel, servo, 2 Lipos, an outrunner, a prop and a GWS receiver saved as a seperate skp file. :D

aviatordave
09-10-2006, 09:18 PM
Forest - I'll pm you my email, I'd like everything. If anyone wants anything off my plane from post #1, let me know, I have them grouped together.

Dave

ForestCam
09-11-2006, 12:04 AM
Hey Dave, I've uploaded everything here so anyone can use them.

http://home.comcast.net/~forestcam2/skpfiles/

aviatordave
09-11-2006, 03:17 AM
Here is a Predator version...

it rained all day so I had nothing else to do :cool:

Thanks for the servos Forestcam.

Dave

(I made a gearbox on the motor, I read alot of guys use them on the other Predator models)

ForestCam
09-11-2006, 03:24 AM
Have you seen where you can share your skp files directly on SketchUp?

I've uploaded most of mine there too.

aviatordave
09-11-2006, 03:25 AM
No, I havent...but I will look!

Thanks

Dave

ForestCam
09-11-2006, 03:43 AM
Some people have WAY too much time on their hands! :eek:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/download?mid=a2cda9a9ec03c4c739a4fa1369136a6a&rtyp=lt&ctyp=sm

Kosh
09-11-2006, 04:57 AM
This stuff is great guys, Love the flaps on the Predator. Look forward to some more designs and ideas out of this before I dust off my spare foam for one. Bet we can even get a group buy on a wing after the dust settles on designs or have some custom made. Keep the wing 54" or under so it still fits in a car without taking it apart. Good glide and flaps are a must but anything else is open game. Got a idea? Bring it on !!!

ForestCam
09-11-2006, 07:02 AM
I'm having WAY too much fun with this program! :D

I broke out the ruler for these so they are exatly 1:1 scale.

aviatordave
09-11-2006, 07:30 AM
Some people have WAY too much time on their hands! :eek:

hmmm who said this?

LOL - just kidding ya, its pretty easy to use and has alot of potential. I like the servo and reciever - look real!

Have you tried to dimension the plane yet? Do you have any other ideas running around your mind?

Anyone else, give it a try....We need more ideas!

Dave

Kosh
09-15-2006, 08:20 PM
Any new design should please take into account the god ugly wires and rubber bands hanging all over any plane. I like the idea of a nylon bolt mounted wing and this would make just a simple plug and play affair.
Halfway down the page. http://www.hobby-lobby.com/hookup.htm
I could see this used under a wing for flaps or? On the same page is also a servo delay that could also come in handy.

Franny
09-15-2006, 08:46 PM
Hi Guys,

I too have been giving this a bit of thought... I have been using my 1/2A High Thrust Viking as my aerial platform which I can take stills and video with a Nikon Coolpix 3700. I have noticed that that poly-dihedral makes for a bit of rolling that makes the video watching something you don't want to do on a full stomach. I also end up cropping most of the stills to "level" them out. What do you think? I was thinking along the first design with a center pod and pusher prop, but I want to mount the camera inside the pod for protection. Seems that just about every landing I get a bit of dust and dirt in my lens and it takes a bit of work to get it going again. Not to mention the time when the motor cacked about 10 sec into the flight and went in reasonably hard. The problem with enclosing it would be reflections from inside the canopy. If the lens was close enough, that might help. Dunno... I would like to hoist up larger cameras for higher res shots and better video. Long, high aspect, mostly flat wing. I would like to keep the ground speed down as well. I suppose a biplane might work to keep the thing slow but still have ample lift for a relatively heavy payload. Maybe something along the lines of Voyager. I saw a replica in the SeaTac airport and immediately thought that would be the bomb. Just replace the front prop with the photo-pod. Maybe you could have several pods for different filming options and just attach it to the airframe. That might be cool too. Just thinking out loud...

Franny

Franny
09-20-2006, 10:37 PM
Ok, I had another thought... Has anyone tried to use a parachute for recovery? I was thinking for tight areas, it could allow a pretty vertical landing and if the motor was still powered a little, you might still have a bit of directional control. Something like that wouldn't weigh much and wouldn't take up too much space...

Just a thought...

Franny

aviatordave
09-21-2006, 04:57 AM
Neat ideas Franny! Alot of good thoughts toward a perfect AP machine. I've thought about the parachute thing as well.....not sure how it could be employed. although nowadays things get easier with technology.

Keep the ideas coming, the more the merrier

Dave

Franny
09-21-2006, 06:55 PM
Ok, I found a cool site for calculating the parachute size: http://my.execpc.com/~culp/rockets/descent.html (http://my.execpc.com/%7Eculp/rockets/descent.html)

I'll have to look at it a bit, but a simple spring to eject it or maybe a little bitty chute to pull out the main... Dunno. Might be cool as a safety backup for any airplane incase of an emergency. and extra servo is a simple thing nowadays...

If the main was a parasail type, then you could use the power and rudder to get really slow fly bys... Wouldn't that be cool. I have no idea how to hook that up, but I bet with enough control surface and prop flow over the tail feathers it just might work. Then, just kill the throttle to float down and land on a dime. Hmmm...

Franny

bluejay
01-05-2007, 06:12 PM
Hi out there. I've been working with the goole sketchup and want to add some of those drawings to this message . Thus far I've been unable to get it done. Would someone out there be kind enough to guide me thru the procedure, or tell me where to go... to find the information. Thanks !!!!

aviatordave
01-05-2007, 06:42 PM
Hi out there. I've been working with the goole sketchup and want to add some of those drawings to this message . Thus far I've been unable to get it done. Would someone out there be kind enough to guide me thru the procedure, or tell me where to go... to find the information. Thanks !!!!

Hi! hows the snow out there? - just kidding!

click on this link and it shows you which buttons to press, if you still cant get it let us know.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12385

looking forward to see what you drew up....I almost forgot about this thread!

Dave

Sparky Paul
01-06-2007, 12:08 AM
Things to consider..
Pushers.. the motor and dual booms move the c.g. way too far aft, unless the nose is lengthened.. which gives room ahead of the wing for the camera and batteries.
Pushers and twins permit mounting the camera up front on a tilt mount.

Franny
01-06-2007, 01:07 AM
Hey Sparky,

How does that poly-diehedral work for you? Does it rock quite a bit?

Franny

aviatordave
01-06-2007, 01:19 AM
Things to consider..
Pushers.. the motor and dual booms move the c.g. way too far aft, unless the nose is lengthened.. which gives room ahead of the wing for the camera and batteries.
Pushers and twins permit mounting the camera up front on a tilt mount.

Now that you mentioned it, it does look way out of whack! I think it was more an attempt at google sketch than anything. Unfortunately those pics are on my other computer that kind of died. I suppose if I still had that file I could just slide the wings back more and raise the tails. I guess its kind of a starting point...

Dave

TeslaWinger
01-06-2007, 01:43 AM
Interesting project, guys...

Q- If you are gonna mount your cam between the main gears, why have a specially designed plane?

Integrating a cam directly into the airframe like the Predator apeals to me - but it had better be stable- the camera will take the heat directly in case of error so mind yer landings!

Pushers and twins, Sparky! The pod and boom Wingo Porter is BOTH- and an excellent video platform with the nosemounted cam.

An articulated nose mount always gets my vote- think B-17G nose turret with a P-38 layout based on a 2 meter glider wing and carbon tube booms... Now ya got me... Photoshop, next stop! :D

... but is the extra expense and complexity of twins worth it? You should see the twin Porter climb out by RPV- besides the Twin Song reminds of Uncle Skylar King!

I'd like to also consider a nose mount on a pusher pod/boom plane, single motor, similar to the Porter but with better glide potential and an aft facing folding prop using one of my old 2 meter glider wings. Size matters with a draggy cam out in the breeze and a larger plane will fly better with the load- altho a powerful enough motor can make ANYTHING happen!

These digi still cams are shaped worse than microboard video cams- at least the video boardcams are square and smaller, easily faired with a scrap of lexan! If they put the lens on the 'skinny' side it would fair in a lot better- but nooooo...! :D Some creative plastic fairings would be helpful considering the Lump Factor of these blunt instruments!

TW

PS: Franny, anything in front of the lens will degrade the picture badly... except- A piece of 'gell' sheet of photographic UV filter material would save the lens coating from a lot of abrasion from repeated cleanings and easily be replaced when worn, simply taped in place. HEY! Nice Viking! :D

tyson
01-06-2007, 01:46 AM
I want a foam body plane to belly land on and be able to front and side mount a camea

Sparky Paul
01-06-2007, 06:18 PM
Hey Sparky,

How does that poly-diehedral work for you? Does it rock quite a bit?

Franny
.
Some do, some don't.
I take mostly stills, so rocking doesn't really affect the images.
And I change wings a lot, from dihedral to poly with the same fuselage/tail.
There's no hard and fast "must-be's" in any of this stuff.

Sparky Paul
01-06-2007, 06:28 PM
Using any 2M glider wing, this planform works fine.. Drawn up in RcCad..

bluejay
01-08-2007, 11:51 PM
Tyson, Mountain Models sells a camera mount designed to attach to the regular magpie fuse. It has tilt and I hot glued a servo to the top of my camera to trip the shutter. I have been using Walmart 2" industrial strength velcro to attach it with. I also have safety straps for extra insurance. To remove the camera/mount i slide a prop blade between the velcro and work it loose. The camera stays with the mount and is easy to switch from place to place. Camera mount was 10.00 when I got mine.

bluejay
01-09-2007, 12:10 AM
Welp, we'll see if I can get some attachments to stick to this reply

Crash9
01-09-2007, 06:34 AM
Keep this thread going, I followed this a couple of months ago and was wondering how it was going. Anyone build anything yet using the Googlesketch software for there design. Also is the plan for everyone to agree on a design and then build it. I would be down for that and will keep following along. My vote would be for twins or pusher to keep the nose clear.

bluejay
01-16-2007, 05:29 PM
OK, I'll try again to implant my rendition of the ultimate design AP platform. I willingly admit that most of the ideas came from you guys Thanks!! Let me know what you think. I have a problem . when I go to advanced,manage attachment, browse, and select the file, no picture comes up after clicking upload and I'm told the file is invalid. any suggestions?? Thanks !!!!

aviatordave
01-16-2007, 05:32 PM
what is the file name?

example ---> picture.jpg (or) picture.bmp ???

let us know

aviatordave
01-17-2007, 12:57 AM
I think you are trying to load up a google sketch file, which this software will not recognize. I'll send you a pm (private message) to sort this out.

Dave

bluejay
01-18-2007, 12:04 AM
one more time....

bluejay
01-18-2007, 05:05 PM
MY sony dsc600 uses auto focus. I have been using channel 4 (rudder) to trip my shutter,going slow enough for the camera to focus. My question ; Has anyone tried a servo reducer like the adjustable one from Dionysus ($23.00)? What were the results? Can I have yours?:D

aviatordave
01-18-2007, 06:22 PM
Neat idea for a plane! I think pushers have the majority of vote here. Were you able to get any other views to download?

I'm not familiar with the servo reducer from Dionysus? I tried to search for it but found out it is the name of an ancient Greek God.....can you post the web page?

Thanks

Dave

Sparky Paul
01-18-2007, 07:00 PM
Use the "sports mode", if your camera has one. The focus works faster, and you can get a sequence of images.
I've used a 3-position switch to get the camera to focus, and then take the picture..
Off, focus, picture.
The Hitec Flash 5 transmitters have this switch. Some others do also.

bluejay
01-18-2007, 07:16 PM
The web site for dionysus is dionysusdesign.com . They make a number of speciality items for r/c electronics. Thanks for the tip on the sports mode, Sparky. I'll have to work on additional views this weekend, theres a new version of goole sketch "6" I down loaded and I'm not sure if my old files are still avaliable. " Any day you can fly is a good day."

bluejay
01-19-2007, 07:36 PM
More help please. I want to turn my motor from a tractor to a pusher, can I use a tractor prop just by turning it around?

aviatordave
01-19-2007, 07:46 PM
Yep, and reverse the motor's direction as well (just switch 2 of the wires from the esc to the motor)

Are you building the plane in the picture you submitted?

Dave

Flyer 1
01-19-2007, 10:24 PM
More help please. I want to turn my motor from a tractor to a pusher, can I use a tractor prop just by turning it around?
I think you mean can you use the motor without changing the direction, but instead just using a tractor prop installed backwards. Right?
That's what I did on my EasyStar. Works fine, but remember the torque is going to affect the airplane exactly opposite of what it normally would, so your trimming efforts are likely to prove, well, interesting!
However, once I got my EasyStar trimmed out, it'll fly practically forever at minimum throttle.
Flyer

bluejay
01-19-2007, 10:49 PM
Thanks for the input. Yep, the plane in the picture is my goal. I 'll do some work on the views this weekend and submit some more shots for your input. I have a couple motors to try , an axi 2808/20, an align 400L/2500 in a model electronics gearbox @ 5:1 and a 12x6 slow prop. Any tests in the near future will be on snow skis and lipolys wrapped in little blankets.

aviatordave
01-22-2007, 04:44 AM
Here is an alternative for some good wings:

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKYH5&P=

Wingspan: 56" (1420mm)
Wing Area: 620 sq in (40 sq dm)

seems like about the right target. Just remove the nacelles and your good to go.

aviatordave
01-22-2007, 04:50 AM
Any tests in the near future will be on snow skis and lipolys wrapped in little blankets.


I built a balsa box to enclose my 2100 mah lipo. There is a couple pieces of velcro to hold it on. I think if you can just keep the wind off it, you will have no problem.

Dave

Sparky Paul
01-22-2007, 09:22 PM
Easy Star and Easy Glider wings would also be good.. remember to get the CF tube spar with them!

Griffo
01-24-2007, 11:22 PM
Here's my dawings for a modified Nutz.

I plan to make it a 60" wing with an underslung EPP pod designed to carry a Canon S80 and will use the following power setup:

Eflight Power 15 brushless (950kv)
CC 80amp ESC
4400Mah 3S Lipo
Maybe a 10 x 5 prop

Mad Joe
01-25-2007, 01:39 AM
hmm very intresting, Im gonna mess around with this google sketch and see what I can come up with. Im voting for a pusher with the camera in a pod up front.

Sparky Paul
01-25-2007, 01:57 AM
I put an Aiptek in the belly of a ZAGI ripoff.. it was a bit underpowered with the 400 motor, but flew OK..

aviatordave
01-26-2007, 11:05 PM
another interesting design, I think...

A good way to get the prop out of cameras view and it folds for glide. Although this is probobly a several thousand dollar uav, we can copy some ideas from it.

Dave

Crash9
01-26-2007, 11:17 PM
Looks like the set up the film makers in hollyweird use.

bluejay
01-29-2007, 04:15 PM
I just received a couple items from dionysus design that you guys might be interested in. One, is a extra slow servo reducer that allows the camera time to focus as the shutter is clicked by the servo arm, prelim tests show its going to work really well. The other device is a camera position controller that smooths the travel of the camera. Daniel at dionysusdesign.com said they are looking to provide quality products for aerial photography market. give them a look.

DanJones530
01-29-2007, 11:33 PM
Yes, we are open to new ideas! Hopefully new things can be implemented with existing hardware. That means they should be inexpensive and quick turnaround. Thanks Bluejay!

bluejay
01-31-2007, 06:18 PM
I recently saw a post for an oversized slow stick, it was yellow ,had detachable wing tips and was cool. Anybody know where it is??

bluejay
02-05-2007, 04:28 PM
I found it .It belongs to TaSaJaRa. 60" wing ,13"chord 4' length. Looks great for this high altitude flying.

aviatordave
02-06-2007, 05:02 AM
This?

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7179

funny...someone else just asked me that !

aviatordave
02-08-2007, 03:04 AM
Here is a download of two of the models I made. Maybe this can help some others to modify and make changes as they see fit. If you have problems with the files, shoot me a pm.

Dave

'right mouse click'
'save file as'

Wattflyer Group design (http://app3.websitetonight.com/projects/3/2/4/5/32459/uploads/wattflyer_group_design.zip) <--------download

Dont forget, you will need to download google sketchup and that link is on the first post of this thread.

bluejay
02-09-2007, 04:29 PM
Hi. Thanks for the info Dave. I noticed in an earlier post that someone was looking for a clear cover to place over the camera. At walmart I found a 1 gallon jug made out of clear plastic, very flexible . I plan to attach it with magnets and cut a hole for the lens. The jug cuts easily with sissors or dremel and the jug is large enough to give multiple covers, all for $2.61.

aviatordave
02-13-2007, 03:23 AM
Bluejay emailed me his creation due to technical problems. So this is his design and I am posting some different views for him. It looks like a stable platform, good forward unobstructed view -

aviatordave
02-13-2007, 03:37 AM
Solid Edge (http://www.solidedge.com/free2d/default.htm) (requires XP operating system)

TurboCAD (http://jwtfamily.org/joe/files/TCAD_LE_setup_files.exe)

Solid Works Personal Edition (http://www.gxsc.com/products_MD_E_swpersonaledition.htm)

QCAD (http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad_downloads.html)

Alibre Design Xpress 9.1 SP1 (http://www.download.com/Alibre-Design-Xpress/3000-6677_4-10619206.html) (100 meg download!)

We still have alot of winter left (except those in OZ or the tropics :))

Give it a try and let us know if it works or not, I have tried a few...there is a bit of a learning curve.

Good luck - Dave

rea59
02-13-2007, 03:47 AM
Solid Edge (http://www.solidedge.com/free2d/default.htm) (requires XP operating system)

TurboCAD (http://jwtfamily.org/joe/files/TCAD_LE_setup_files.exe)

Solid Works Personal Edition (http://www.gxsc.com/products_MD_E_swpersonaledition.htm)

QCAD (http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad_downloads.html)

We still have alot of winter left (except those in OZ or the tropics :))

Give it a try and let us know if it works or not, I have tried a few...there is a bit of a learning curve.

Good luck - Dave


Just a personal opinion. Solid Works is good and TurboCAD I can do without. My preference is to use Autodesk Inventor. Simply the easiest and best I've worked with. (although very pricey)

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=4246282

bluejay
02-16-2007, 04:44 PM
Mornin Dave, Of the programs listed above which is the most useful for technically challanged nimnos? Not that I want everybody to know just how challanged I am, but.....

aviatordave
02-16-2007, 06:13 PM
Mornin Dave, Of the programs listed above which is the most useful for technically challanged nimnos? Not that I want everybody to know just how challanged I am, but.....


Well I find them all challenging! I just sit and play with it and see what I can do. Some have help files that will get you along but it is a big learning curve. I'm considering taking some CAD classes at our local college. My employer will foot the bill.....after I complete the course with a 'B' or higher....

Dave

bluejay
03-14-2007, 03:58 PM
Hi. I'm just about to maiden my avatar, if the wind ever stops blowin'.

DanJones530
03-14-2007, 05:19 PM
Bluejay, Do you have any larger photos of your new bird? It looks exactly like the rendered drawing you made earlier!

aviatordave
03-14-2007, 08:11 PM
Ya Bluejay...where are the pictures? Dont hold out on us!

Let us know all the euipment your using as well!

Dave

bluejay
03-14-2007, 09:32 PM
OK You guys know I'm a computer NIMNO but I do my best. The plane is really close to the drawings posted by Dave. Wingspan 65", 12" chord,auw about 60 ounces,motor ,align 400lf/2500 in a model electronics minibox at 3.84:1, batteries range from 1800 to 4000mah 3s lipos, has ailerons, flaps ,13x10 apc e prop. The wing profile is an eppler 423 from nastytoes. I'm not a real big fan of tricycle gears but this design really needs it. Camera mount is up front and is the mountian models magpie addon mount. camera is a sony DSC600 and the focus is aided by dionysus 2x servo reducer,that allows my camera just enough time to auto focus (fewer wasted shots) attached to the front of my sony is micro wireless video feed so I can see what the sony sees. It downlinks to a dvd player by me on the ground. camera tilt is smoothed out by dionysus camera position controller and it really does smooth out camera movements. Tilt is a full 90'. Sure hope it flies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For some reason I cant upload the photos. I'll keep trying.

aviatordave
03-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Well you can email them to me again if you need to & I can post for ya. Sounds like a real good plane.....expensive too :)

Dave

bluejay
03-14-2007, 10:18 PM
Thanks. I still don't know why I can't upload this stuff.
By the way, are you surviving the weather over there, storm, ice storm, melt, storm, melt...???

stinkweed007
03-16-2007, 01:14 PM
i got an idea...

bluejay
03-19-2007, 04:01 PM
with CG at about 28% longitudinal balance is very sensitive. AC is almost tail heavy as a gust of wind will tip it aft to sit on its tail. with a 13x6.5 prop , no flaps take off run at 50 ' . Required full up elevator but lacked enough power ? or elevator to gain alltitude. max height about 3'. required full up elevator to maintain flight. with a 15x10 prop ( the only larger prop I had) , take off about 30' but still needed full up elevator to maintain flight. other aspects of flight very stable. max height 25' came & around to land, settled right in with full up elevator. incidence of tail surfaces to wing is about -2*, but it seems more is needed? also I'm not sure if main landing gear should be moved further aft to make for more stable ground handling? The plane is very stable in the air and really visible. It really wants to fly well. Sunday, I made alterations to tail incidence, increased it to about 4*, doubled the size of the elevator. TOO windy to fly, flew my bluejay and ezstar, no camera work. Any ideas on the prototype????:confused: :rolleyes:

Sparky Paul
03-19-2007, 06:00 PM
Elevator controls airspeed, not altitude. :)
Power controls altitude.
It sounds like more power AND move the c.g. aft a bit. It's way nose heavy.

bluejay
03-19-2007, 06:08 PM
thanks I try it , I have an axi 2820/10 if it needs more power.

sierra-gold
03-21-2007, 03:34 AM
Here is an alternative for some good wings:

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKYH5&P=

Wingspan: 56" (1420mm)
Wing Area: 620 sq in (40 sq dm)

seems like about the right target. Just remove the nacelles and your good to go.

Old post, but did anyone ever happen to buy a set of these wings?

They are the size of wing I have often thought about using (even on an SS) and I guess one could "grind off" the engine nacelles successfully.

I'm very pleased with the quality of the wings on my EZ Glider and these should be the same.

SG

aviatordave
03-21-2007, 03:43 AM
No I dont think anyone has used them on a home built craft....but you could be the first. I personally think they would work out great with the engine nacelles ground off. (plus you could use ailerons)

Dave

sierra-gold
03-21-2007, 03:55 AM
I may just order up a set... I like 56"x11". :)

I did buy a set of MX Magister wings (about 500 sq. in.) and had been toying with modifying them with dihedral and not useing the ailerons.

My LHS has carbon tube the same size as the MX wing spar tube (common to EZ Glider, Magister, and probably this wing also). The MX tube is black, but it is FG.

This wing should be great for a windy day SS AP XL.

I'll keep this thread posted on any progress I make.

SG

Flyer 1
03-21-2007, 04:07 AM
I've got a Magister. The wing design is one of the best I've encountered - the danged plane just laughs at moderate winds.
I don't think you'd really need to add much dihedral - it's a hands-off flyer as is, and just a tiny touch should make it a good rudder-only wing.
However, I'd keep the ailerons anyhow! Can't hurt.
Flyer

Crash9
03-21-2007, 04:32 AM
Old post, but did anyone ever happen to buy a set of these wings?

They are the size of wing I have often thought about using (even on an SS) and I guess one could "grind off" the engine nacelles successfully.

I'm very pleased with the quality of the wings on my EZ Glider and these should be the same.

SG
I picked up a set of those Twin Star II wings for back up on my TSII:) . I still haven't used them. The Twin Star has been a good AP platform so I never got around to making a "home made" AP plane with them after coming across this thread. That foam takes abuse very well:) .

sierra-gold
03-21-2007, 03:31 PM
Well I went ahead and ordered up a set of the Twin Star II wings this morning.

The best price I found and the vendor who had them in stock was at BP Hobbies:

http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V904007&pid=V503939

When they arrive they will go into my building que which keeps getting shuffled as items are added.

Many projects started.... but few finished. Probably the sign of a mental condition, like the proverbial cluttered desk. :D

SG

sierra-gold
03-21-2007, 03:41 PM
I'm not getting Email notification of updates to threads I'm subscribed to here.

I have the option of "instant Email notification" in my Options area selected.

The Email address is correct. (My "other RC Group" Email notification is working fine.)

Have I overlooked something here?

I'm wondering if my ISP's SPAM filter is bouncing the Watt Flyer Email to me.

Thanks,

SG

aviatordave
03-21-2007, 04:43 PM
Looking forward to your build w/ those wings. Have you got some sort of design already in your mind...stick or fuse?

I'm guilty also of projects started and stopped....then I end up stealing from them to fix something I am flying....

Is that too much wing for the mighty geared Himax?

Dave

I have the same problem with email notifications, it used to work for me but now doesnt.....could be the spam filter but if I lower its setting I get a ton of junk

Crash9
03-21-2007, 06:06 PM
I only get half of my instant Email notifications. I just keep checking back. I was looking at my Twin Star wings last night and noticed the motor nacelles are slightly cut into the wings. A little filling may be needed.

bluejay
03-21-2007, 08:53 PM
I wanted to share a product report with the readers of wattflyer on a couple of products I have been using from dionysus design (dionysusdesign.com). Since all my AP work is still shots using a sony dsc600 digital camera. I was finding too many photos out of focus either from not allowing my camera time to auto focus(no sports mode etc.), or my trying to manuver the camera at the last second to wiggle the shot in.I called Dan at dionysus and he thought he had a couple items that might help my situation. He was right. I have been using the extra slow servo reducer between my Rx and the hitec 55 servo I use to trigger my shutter. I thought the extra slow model would be too slow, I was wrong. It's timing is still quick enough to focus and start firing off shots. I use a burst mode to take 5 to 10 shots per pass. The camera position controller smooths out the camera travel enough so that those shots taken even with the cameramoving are in focus. Together, the two items work great to complete a smooth operating system that has made my job of editing shots after the flight much easier and more enjoyable. I see these items as part of system now, and rely on them to make me look better than I am. I think you might find them useful in your systems as well.

sierra-gold
03-21-2007, 09:23 PM
Looking forward to your build w/ those wings. Have you got some sort of design already in your mind...stick or fuse?

I'm guilty also of projects started and stopped....then I end up stealing from them to fix something I am flying....

Is that too much wing for the mighty geared Himax?

Dave


At this point my plan is to build it and try it on my SS AP XL. Will the 2025 pull it around... we'll find out. ;)

SG

bluejay
03-26-2007, 09:53 PM
So far I seem to have a power defiency, even with the 15x8 prop pulling about 24 amps wot. I took a nose dive on final (no camera aboard) and dinked the front gear and camera shields. I looking at TASAJARA Big Stick .And Aviatordaves forward mount.

DanJones530
03-26-2007, 11:14 PM
Bluejay,
Sorry to hear about the rough landing. I was still waiting to see some close up photos of your design. My foam cutter is mechanically complete and I need to hook it up electrically. The EPP foam is here, but I may want to start with some inexpensive Polystyrene from Home depot, at least initially. BTW, I replied to your emails again. I hope you got them before they were eaten by the ether.

sierra-gold
03-27-2007, 05:13 PM
Well my Twin Star II wings just arrived... what a total fiasco.

They aren't 56" x 11" (620 sq. in.) as was indicated in a earlier post. They are 56" by 8.5" (9" at the root and 8" at the tip) giving less sq. in. than an SS wing - 475 sq. in.

The Magister wing I have is about the same size and no removing of engine mounts is required. The Magpie AP wing is also close in size. Either would make better windy day wings, but no gain in sq. in. to reduce wing loading.

One of the things I dislike about Multiplex is very unreliable data on their wings - although it seems to be getting better in some ads. A month ago when buying an EZ Glider I found a large variance in wing area in several ads/Tech Specs.

As an example - the URL below gives the Twin Star II wing area as 665 sq. in. - Huh!
http://www2.omnimodels.com/cgi-bin/woi0001p?&I=MPUA2110&P=7

Anyone need a spare set of Twin Star II wings? Have some for sale.

The wing is sold.

S/G

aviatordave
03-29-2007, 10:33 PM
I'm looking here also for wings. These are balsa built up (just like the old days!) 54 inch wingspan and 560 square in of area. Laser cut and ailerons included with 1 servo/aileron. I'm waiting for an email.

sierra-gold
03-30-2007, 05:33 PM
I'm looking here also for wings. These are balsa built up (just like the old days!) 54 inch wingspan and 560 square in of area. Laser cut and ailerons included with 1 servo/aileron. I'm waiting for an email.

Hey Dave,

That looks very interesting. One could cut a few extra ribs and run the span out a bit also. Is it a wing kit, or a whole plane?

I'm working with my MX Magister foam wing right now. It's 64" span with about 575 sq. in. with ailerons. Nice fat foam airfoil and the MX elapor molded foam is pretty tuff stuff.

S/G

Crash9
03-31-2007, 03:43 AM
Now you got me thinking S/G, Magister wings on my Twin Star.....huuummm...

aviatordave
04-02-2007, 01:16 AM
Hey Dave,

That looks very interesting. One could cut a few extra ribs and run the span out a bit also. Is it a wing kit, or a whole plane?

I'm working with my MX Magister foam wing right now. It's 64" span with about 575 sq. in. with ailerons. Nice fat foam airfoil and the MX elapor molded foam is pretty tuff stuff.

S/G

Its from a kit @ MM, its called a tyro 150, but I emailed him to see if he would create a wing kit. its brand new and he hasnt got one together yet, but will work on one. I'm sure others will request one as they crash it.

here is a video of the whole plane flying...does nice IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aC5RjTEkP4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CsCPTdw8vs

Flyer 1
04-02-2007, 01:27 AM
Its from a kit @ MM, its called a tyro 150, but I emailed him to see if he would create a wing kit. its brand new and he hasnt got one together yet, but will work on one. I'm sure others will request one as they crash it.

here is a video of the whole plane flying...does nice IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aC5RjTEkP4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CsCPTdw8vs
Now THAT'S a nice-flying plane - it seems to fly very much like my old Electric Rascal, smooth and forgiving. I might just have to order one for my own hangar.
Flyer

sierra-gold
04-02-2007, 05:00 PM
[quote=aviatordave;174824]Its from a kit @ MM, its called a tyro 150, but I emailed him to see if he would create a wing kit. I'm sure others will request one as they crash it.

/quote]

The only negative possibility I see is that the Tyro 150 kit is normally $120 ($99 on sale right now), that probably puts the wing kit price at about $60. (The going price for wing kits appears to be about 50-60% of kit price at most vendors.) I hate cutting ribs, but that seems expensive to me.

If one looks at glider wing kits at LA - $75 will buy a 110" glider wing kit. :confused:

We'll have to wait and see.

I wish one could just order up 20-30 ribs for a good price. ;)

S/G

aviatordave
04-02-2007, 05:31 PM
well there are the laser cutter guys. If we could get enough people in for a buy we might get a deal. I'm looking into that as well. I've got the software to create a .dwg drawing which they can use in their cutters. I'm sure if we specified an airfoil with chord length someone could hook us up. I kind of miss building with balsa....

sierra-gold
04-02-2007, 05:59 PM
I have Profili 2 which I have used a couple of times to produce ribs I printed out and then cut by hand... too much time used in the process.

I would like to get a simple Clark Y about 12% thick, 11" chord, with cut outs for 1/8" x 3/8" spruce spars at about 30% of chord, and I guess about 1/4" circle cut for carbon arrowshaft LE. Perhaps a couple of lightening cut outs fore and aft of the spars.

That rib would make a nice 60" constant chord wing with 660 sq. in. IMO.

aviatordave
04-09-2007, 05:19 AM
This is an interesting design..dont mind the price :)

I'd like it with twice the chord and half the span.

http://hobby-lobby.com/aeromaster.htm

check out the flight video, looks cool :cool:

Murocflyer
04-09-2007, 05:36 AM
I'm not getting Email notification of updates to threads I'm subscribed to here.

I have the option of "instant Email notification" in my Options area selected.

The Email address is correct. (My "other RC Group" Email notification is working fine.)

Have I overlooked something here?

I'm wondering if my ISP's SPAM filter is bouncing the Watt Flyer Email to me.

Thanks,

SG

My guess if you started the thread with email notification off, it will always be off even if you change it midway through. Same goes if you started it with it on and turned it off, you still get the emails. I know I do.

Frank

Murocflyer
04-09-2007, 05:40 AM
Well, did we build the "Super AP Plane" yet or do I still have to buy the twin motor PEC (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6933517&postcount=185)?

Frank

bluejay
04-12-2007, 08:20 PM
An attempt at uploading... OK, I finally figured this out!!!!!!!!!! Now , how come the picture quality didn't come thru like it shows on my laptop??

aviatordave
04-13-2007, 04:10 AM
Bluejay,

I'm guessing you uploaded the full size version of your picture (bigger than 1.5 mp?). if that is true, the software in the forum downsizes the file size which in turn often makes the picture look pixeled. that software link I sent you will allow you to save your image in a smaller filesize.

Anyway...since you know how to upload pics now....can we see pictures of your plane?

bluejay
04-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Sure. I work on them this weekend and post them early next week. Thanks for the picasa info. I played around with it last night some , its pretty cool.

bluejay
04-16-2007, 05:11 PM
28581

28582

28583If I can get them to upload here's the pics... OK -LOL I have no idea why they came out verticle:rolleyes: :confused: :eek:

Mad Joe
04-16-2007, 08:51 PM
nice... wish I had one!

Crash9
04-16-2007, 08:58 PM
Cool, It's nice to finally see your plane Bluejay. Good looking bird:) .

bluejay
04-17-2007, 03:59 PM
Thanks, I found I was really under powered,and damaged the front gear and camera shields. so I'm ( for now at least ) taking the wing and stuff and putting it on a slow stick type and forward/rearward camera mount. Then I'll either use my axi 2820/20 or go to a hollow fuse.

aviatordave
04-17-2007, 04:44 PM
glad to see you got the picture thing worked out Bluejay! the plane looks good, it might fly better with a different airfoil, the one on there is quite ineffecient as most undercambered wings are. Maybe if you switch to a clark y ?

Sparky Paul
04-17-2007, 06:07 PM
That looks like a Selig 1223 airfoil.. good for lift, not so good for drag. Your "underpowered" note.
A Clark-Y as mentioned, and add some span by tapering the wing to keep the same area.
With that wing, don't use any down aileron! Set your radio for 100% differential.. they only need to go up. The down aileron just adds drag on the wrong side of a turn.
The 1223 is most efficient on very high aspect ratio wings..
SAE and AIAA lifter event planes..

aviatordave
04-17-2007, 06:21 PM
Is the Selig 1223 the same as the Eppler 423? I think that is what Bluejay used...

Sparky Paul
04-17-2007, 06:51 PM
Basically yes.
I've built SAE planes with both.. There's not much to choose between them.
The 200 foot takeoff requirement at extremely high wing loadings makes this type of airfoil practical for lifters.
The speed range is quite restricted due to the drag.
A more slippery style of wing permits a more versatile speed range without excess power.

bluejay
04-17-2007, 07:07 PM
Hey, thanks guys, I'm having a wing cut now that is an eppler 197, of epp and will try to have them interchangable to see the difference, one thing , on the 423 wing its got flaps - I'll remove them and go to full length ailerons and do the differential control

Sparky Paul
04-17-2007, 08:05 PM
There's no real need for full-span ailerons.
Just disable the flaps.

stinkweed007
04-18-2007, 12:00 PM
lotsa designs... lotsa completed prototypes... um... no AP?

Sparky Paul
04-18-2007, 04:22 PM
We're putting in a pad for the heli fliers...

stinkweed007
04-18-2007, 07:09 PM
hey sparky... if you find Hoffa out there.. lemme know..

Sparky Paul
04-18-2007, 07:35 PM
hey sparky... if you find Hoffa out there.. lemme know..
.
Hoffa (probably) isn't out there, but two club members are.. scattered to the winds..

bluejay
04-18-2007, 08:00 PM
we'll see... as you can see I,ve got some pictures- it's getting them to YOU that's my challenge. But I''m workin' on it.

bluejay
04-18-2007, 08:53 PM
where I live.28744

28745


This last pic is about 5/8 mile from my strip and its about as far as I would want to go with an r/c to take photos

bluejay
04-18-2007, 10:37 PM
upload this28753 Is there a way to delete those duplicate photos? Thanks Sparky Paul.

Sparky Paul
04-19-2007, 12:14 AM
upload this28753 Is there a way to delete those duplicate photos?
Got to Edit, Advanced.. There's a delete box for images.

DanJones530
05-04-2007, 02:34 AM
Bluejay,
The pics look good! I am interested to see how you add ailerons to the EPP wing. I will attempt to add ailerons on my slowstick EPP wing soon.

Dan

bluejay
05-04-2007, 06:41 PM
Hi Dan, I ended up adding them to the trailing edge as opposed to cutting them from the wing material. I used the 6mm foam from bp hobbies and just taped the hinge. So, my chord is 13.5" wing, 65". It came out kinda heavy but thats my fault. Overbuilt. Hope to have photos next week. By the way, Dan Jones is now cutting EPP wings, and they're really well done. contact him for your set at; dionysusdesign.com. If it sounds like I'm a salesman for him- I'm not. I have found his products to be just as advertised and found him very easy to work with.

aviatordave
05-26-2007, 12:02 AM
This site looks promising. I really like the magpie wings, but if I could incorprate ailerons & flaps or flaperons in a balsa/ply build life would be great. I'm going to email them about that, it looks like they will draw up anything for you. Scratch building is easy and if I go this way I'll do a build on it.

http://www.montanamodelworks.com/

DanJones530
05-29-2007, 07:48 PM
Bluejay,
I used the e197 wing profile and made it a flat bottom for my latest project. I used 3 peices of standard styrofoam for this 99" wing. It has 2 CF spars in it, but no ailerons. So we had to use string to pull the tips up to create dihedral. The tail boom is nothing more than a golf club shaft on sale at wal-mart. Flying weight is 5.5lbs and 25 Amps was a bit under-powered. The foam fusalage was covered with epoxy and fiberglass. The camera equipment for AP use will be out front. For the videos, I used a 1.25 lb weight in the nose to make it balance correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIno9ZRMu6w

BTW, servo city just released their camera mounts:
http://www.servocity.com

Dan

aviatordave
05-29-2007, 07:58 PM
Wow Dan, good looking bird.....I agree - it needs a few more watts!

I like the camera tray from servo city, quite affordable as well -

metaglypto
09-15-2007, 04:46 AM
Hey I like what I am seeing here! And I thought all those ideas were mine exclusively. Couple of familiar things I see here, that all seem to agree on to some degree. High wing pusher prop or pusher pod seems fairly universal.

A lot of thought to the twin boom design. I had toyed with that idea, using two Easy Star Fuselages connected side by side via cut down wing sections and connecting stabilizer sections. One side of an Easy Star stab is 8". Connecting two of them would give you 16". Thus cutting and joining the wings would give you an extra 16" of wing area, plus 54" span of the EZ totals 70".

You would then have the option of mounting a single motor on the center section of wing, and trimming off the existing motor mounts, or mounting a motor in each cavity for the EZ, and having a twin engine PEasy-38.

Instead of reinventing the wheel, does anyone have some beater Easy Star Fuses and wings? I sure wouldn't want to go cutting up a couple of new Easy Stars unless I knew it worked. I am almost there. One more perfectly good Easy Star darted in and I shoul have enough spares....he.

I have thought the center section wing could have a camera mounted flush into the wing pointed straight down. Or a pod of some sort mounted for a forward looking camera.

Of course something like that would have a lot ofdifferent areas to stow equipment, and it might need landing gear, depending on where you landed it.

Crash9
09-16-2007, 11:23 PM
Hey I like what I am seeing here! And I thought all those ideas were mine exclusively. Couple of familiar things I see here, that all seem to agree on to some degree. High wing pusher prop or pusher pod seems fairly universal.

A lot of thought to the twin boom design. I had toyed with that idea, using two Easy Star Fuselages connected side by side via cut down wing sections and connecting stabilizer sections. One side of an Easy Star stab is 8". Connecting two of them would give you 16". Thus cutting and joining the wings would give you an extra 16" of wing area, plus 54" span of the EZ totals 70".

You would then have the option of mounting a single motor on the center section of wing, and trimming off the existing motor mounts, or mounting a motor in each cavity for the EZ, and having a twin engine PEasy-38.

Instead of reinventing the wheel, does anyone have some beater Easy Star Fuses and wings? I sure wouldn't want to go cutting up a couple of new Easy Stars unless I knew it worked. I am almost there. One more perfectly good Easy Star darted in and I shoul have enough spares....he.

I have thought the center section wing could have a camera mounted flush into the wing pointed straight down. Or a pod of some sort mounted for a forward looking camera.

Of course something like that would have a lot ofdifferent areas to stow equipment, and it might need landing gear, depending on where you landed it.
That's a pretty good idea. I got a couple e* around here that need to be reborn. I may have to try your PEasy-38 idea....;)