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Madman
12-28-2006, 08:34 AM
Sorry to be repetitive with this repost, but admittedly the title on the other made it look like spam. Any helpers?

If not, I may have to capitulate to reality and go to a 35% conversion (sigh).
......................
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif EP conversion: 46% TOC Ultimate 10-300
We have this terrific challenge that began on the KnifeEdge\RealFlight G3.5 Simulation forums, but I think the necessary expertise is here. I'm hoping to find someone able to give me guidance in converting the subject 3D biplane to electric. It's fundamental specs include:
100 inch wingspan
110 inches long
3310 sq inches wing area
~44 lbs weight
6-channels, with 15 servos
("normally" takes a 200cc gas engine)

Anyone here interested in helping us put together a simulation of this beast, which I subsequently hope to build and fly (assuming I don't have to first rob a bank to do so).:rolleyes:
Thanks,
Bob
aka

thunder1
12-30-2006, 01:58 AM
Sounds interesting. But why convert a model which is way overbuilt for electric use? The beauty of electric is that the power system doesn't pound the airframe constantly. If a model were to be designed for electric you could probably shave off at least 30% of the weight. Using composite balsa/CF techniques you should be able to easily achieve this.

Madman
12-30-2006, 06:10 AM
Pretty hard to argue with good advice. Appreciate the recommendation. I was hoping for a way to employ the ARF, and save on the build time, since I'd rather be flying ... but if push comes to shove, I just may follow your vector. Thanks, thundr1.

peterkron
12-30-2006, 06:42 AM
im sure one of the giant rimfire or axi brushless motors would work for this. and on the gp website they have a thing where you tell them the basic dimensoins of the plane and it says how many volts you need,what motor, and approximate esc http://www.electrifly.com/powersystem/glow-to-brushless.html or http://www.electrifly.com/config/ but you are looking at like a 12 cell lipo and the whole thing drawing like 200 amps or something like that i don't even no where you can buy a 12cell battery, charger for that battery or a 200 amp esc

peterkron
12-30-2006, 06:48 AM
or maybe get 2 of the biggest motors you can find and have "counter rotating" props and gettwice the power

thunder1
12-30-2006, 09:32 AM
Here's one way to electrify that beast:
http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motors_c50quad.shtml

That's $3K for the motor and then you've got to spring for an ESC and batteries!!!

Madman
12-30-2006, 11:00 PM
Here's one way to electrify that beast:
http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motors_c50quad.shtml

That's $3K for the motor and then you've got to spring for an ESC and batteries!!!
Well, thunder1, that's a really cool powerplant, BUT:
The C50S, with 2-5 LiPoH cells/6000 MAH, delivers a peak 1.0 Kw ...
The C50L, with 3-6 cells/8000 MAH, delivers 1.3 Kw, peak.
and
The C50XL, with 4-10 cells/8000 MAH, delivers 2.2 Kw peak (and weighs 7 lbs)

By way of comparison, the Hangar 9 46% Ultimate TOC was originally powered with a Desert Aircraft DA-150 gas engine (weighing almost 8 lbs), is rated at 16.5 hp (which, by my calcs, is about 12.3 Kw).

I TOLD you this was a challenge!;)

Madman
12-30-2006, 11:07 PM
or maybe get 2 of the biggest motors you can find and have "counter rotating" props and gettwice the power
Now that's pretty innovative, I must say. Would we need to have concentric cylindrical drive shafts (i.e. a shaft-within-a-shaft) to pull that off? Know anyone who's done that at the R/C model level, even for a giant? I need to ponder that one. Thanks for the fascinating suggestion, peterkron.:)

You might notice in my message to thunder1, that I think I need about 12.3 Kw, so even with two motors as you suggest, that's going to be not only pricey (for the simulation, of course, price is no objective;) ), but HEAVY.:(

peterkron
12-31-2006, 12:14 AM
haah thank you madman here is a link to an axi setup with counter rotating props http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-axi5330.htm#Double and theres even a link to a review of some guy who used that to power a 35% edge so maybe you could do that to 2 motors

peterkron
12-31-2006, 12:15 AM
actually it says you can use it to power a single prop also, so maybe you could also link 2 motors to drive 1 prop together like they did there

peterkron
12-31-2006, 12:34 AM
here is a pic i found on rc groups of counter rotating props i have no idea how they did it though

Madman
12-31-2006, 01:02 AM
actually it says you can use it to power a single prop also, so maybe you could also link 2 motors to drive 1 prop together like they did there
Here's some more info on your find for the curious.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=763

Ain't this FUN?:)

Thanks so much for the interest and the info.

Madman
12-31-2006, 03:36 PM
FYI: In response to the dialogue ongoing on this subject on the KnifeEdge\RealFlight G3.5 forum, we have this very thoughtful contribution.

http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showpost.php?p=70721&postcount=58

In that forum, TopSan (aka Frank, from Liepzig, Germany) recommends a specific Plettenberg motor delivering a phenomenal 21 hp; and concludes that it won't be the cost of the motor and ESC that might sink my ship, but rather the cost of the battery suite and charging infrastructure. Great food for thought.

Your thoughts on the points he makes?

What a great group of mentors I'm finding in both forums. Very grateful newbie, I am, I am, I am.:)

chute42
01-01-2007, 02:01 AM
I have been looking to power my next project with a PJS motor, this one might just work for you http://www.visionhobbies.com/1148378.html
If you put the plane on a diet who knows.
Chuck

thunder1
01-01-2007, 05:39 AM
I wouldn't try to just match the performance numbers from the gas motor. Electric motors deliver torque thoughout the entire RPM range so they act like more powerful gas/glow equivalent motors when it comes to thrust.

The C50 Quad delivers over 80 lbs thrust. On a 40 lb model, I'd say that's enough power. Or is there a reason to need more? How many pounds of thrust does the DA-150 put out?

Madman
01-01-2007, 07:03 AM
The C50 Quad delivers over 80 lbs thrust. On a 40 lb model, I'd say that's enough power. Or is there a reason to need more? How many pounds of thrust does the DA-150 put out?
Have requested thrust data from Desert Air for the following props:
2-Blades http://www.desertaircraft.com/theme/bullet_Gold.jpg32x12http://www.desertaircraft.com/theme/bullet_Gold.jpg32x10http://www.desertaircraft.com/theme/bullet_Gold.jpg30x12http://www.desertaircraft.com/theme/bullet_Gold.jpg30x10 3-Blades http://www.desertaircraft.com/theme/bullet_Gold.jpg29x12nhttp://www.desertaircraft.com/theme/bullet_Gold.jpg28.5x12
Please stand by. Your point is well-taken, and I may be viewing this naievely. 2G (80 lbs) should be plenty for a hover-capable 3D bird, huh, if the maneuvers are entered with grace? Will have to think through the power requirements for "snappier" maneuvers, though, pulling a lot more than 2G.

Madman
01-01-2007, 07:09 AM
I have been looking to power my next project with a PJS motor, this one might just work for you http://www.visionhobbies.com/1148378.html
If you put the plane on a diet who knows.
Chuck
Thanks for the PJS lead, Chuck. Being New Year's Eve, what better time to make a dieting resolution?;)
For others, Chuck's lead shows:
PJS 3D 18000 Brushless Outrunner Motor ($465). Weight 3.42 pounds, 10-15 LiPo, max efficiency 102 amps with 15s LiPo (37 pounds of static thrust) -- 77 amps with 10s LiPo, RPM per volt 150, RM 26, recommended prop 30x10. Includes connectors for speed controllers, presolder motor connectors, mounting bolts, and a 3 year limited warranty. Recommend Jeti 200 Amp ESC available from Vision Hobbies

Larry3215
01-02-2007, 01:51 AM
The guys at E-Flightline have been doing very large e-conversions for a long time. Thier Aviation models 35% Yak weighs 35 pounds and has a power system that puts out over 7000 watts and could be pushed harder yet.

http://www.e-flightline.com/

They are useing a geared Lehner motor in that one. Performance is awesome. I think it could easily work on your 44 pound bird.

The Neu Bam would also work, but it would be pushed a bit more. I have seen them set up at over 6000 watts peak which would give you 140 watts per pound. Enough for decent 3D but not spectular.

The best packs for these power levels would be the new Tanic/Enerland/Polyquest 5000 cells or perhaps the newest big Thunder Power 5000 cells. The Tanics are good to 30C easily and hold voltage extreemly well and run relatively cool. Outstanding cells. A 12S2P pack could easily put out 9000 watts with no stress and over 13000 watts for short peaks.

By the way you will save a good bit of weight going with a geared inrunner than any outrunner in this power range.

ESC's are more dificult. You are going to need a pricey European esc as this is way beyond what the Castle HV110 can do. Jeff was pulling 168 amps at 12S on the big Yak.

Knotronic has a new 12S (15S?) 200 amp controller that looks good and can actually be purchaced I think. There is the Schulze, but it is being pushed pretty hard and is over priced I think.

There is also a new Jazz 15S 200amp controller due out soon, but I havent seen it actually for sale yet.

Its an easily do-able project - not in any way cheep tho :)

Larry

chute42
01-02-2007, 03:55 AM
Check this motor out http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=CYLBB it will do the job. As was stated earlier it is just a matter of $$$
BTW Vision Hobbies say they have a Jetti 200amp ESC(see post 14)
Chuck

Madman
01-02-2007, 04:10 AM
They are useing a geared Lehner motor in that one. Performance is awesome. I think it could easily work on your 44 pound bird.

Knotronic has a new 12S (15S?) 200 amp controller that looks good and can actually be purchaced I think.

There is also a new Jazz 15S 200amp controller due out soon, but I havent seen it actually for sale yet.

Its an easily do-able project - not in any way cheep tho :)

Larry
Super input, Larry. THANK YOU!
The Lehner 3060 8T used in the big Yak goes for about $725 USD today.
Can't yet locate Knotronic's website, but will look some more.
Don't think the Jazz 15S will be available for awhile, but getting closer, it would seem.
Your reflection on the project not being cheap looks more and more like an understatement, but FUN quantifying it for simulation purposes, and with time, who knows but that it may become affordable as prices drop for this size equipment.

Meanwhile, has anyone a track to a 35% electrified Ultimate?:confused: It's time to start a comparitive spreadsheet.

Madman
01-02-2007, 04:18 AM
Check this motor out http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=CYLBB it will do the job. As was stated earlier it is just a matter of $$$
BTW Vision Hobbies say they have a Jetti 200amp ESC(see post 14)
Chuck
At just a buck under $2K, the Cyclon Big Boss BL Outrunner Motor w/ESC is more than twice the cost of the Lehner 3060 8T, but looks to me to outperform it (at least on paper written by the spin-doctors). The Big Boss just moved to the top of my list for the moment, since performance is the initial objective, until wallet-reality $et$ in. Good input, Chuck. Thanks.

ChinehamGeorge
01-02-2007, 09:57 AM
Hi MadMan

Have you considered the 11kw yes 11Kw Plettenberg Predator direct drive outrunner?

http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Motoren/aussen/Predator/Motor.htm

Cheers n beers
George

gwright
01-02-2007, 01:23 PM
The hangar 9 ultimate arf has been done allready, a couple times. I've flown the one that Dan Redfern did (innderdeamon gearbox guy). It had 4 hacker C50's on it (that are capable of more than 2.2kw by the way), each on 10S lipo (geared to one shaft) with a 36 inch prop. 10KW, which is a touch less in horsepower than a DA150, but with the larger prop, the end result is actually more performance than a DA150. It would really rocket out of hover a lot better than a DA one, and it was heavy. He'd done nothing for weight savings, the gearbox was heavy, and I think the packs he was using were way overkill. Total was something like 52 lbs if memory serves. There are some large motors coming out (pletti has allready shown theirs publicly) that will be able to do the job as a single,.. not with multiples geared. A german fellow flew one at the masters and at tuscon, setup for something around 20KW. When i asked Shulman about it compared to a DA, he said it doesn't compare to the 150 or 200,.. and if they ever came out with a 250CC it might be close to the electric. Unfortunately, setups like that (15S lipo, 300+ amps) probably won't be seen in the mainstream. I'm surely not going to consider a second mortgage to afford the setup <G>.

Madman
01-02-2007, 03:43 PM
Hi MadMan

Have you considered the 11kw yes 11Kw Plettenberg Predator direct drive outrunner?
Cheers n beers
George
I have, now, George, thanks to your contribution. Good looking at the surface. Worth peeling away another layer of this onion, too. Any idea where I should look to find some info on the "future 40.160H" ESC that the motor folks recommend? Google let me down on this one.
On the 2nd day of the new year, I recall (vaguely) TOO MUCH "cheers and beers" ... so I think I'll just say thank you and go take an aspirin.;)

ChinehamGeorge
01-02-2007, 04:09 PM
Hi MadMan
I hope the hangover isn't too bad
I'd personally look at the new Jeti Spin 200. Much easier to set up then the Schulze ESC.
The Jeti wasn't out at the time they wrote that page on the website
http://www.jetimodel.cz/eng/spin_opto_en.html

Cheers
George :)

ChinehamGeorge
01-02-2007, 04:34 PM
Hi MadMan

Just reading your original post again..... 44lbs for a 100" bipe... WOW that is really heavy!!!!!
I know she's a big bird.... but 44lbs!
Personally I would consider anything over 35lbs as heavy for this size of plane.
For electric power of this size I would be aiming for 30-33lbs
I think you have either got to look at lighter airframes or BIY (Built It Yourself)
Nearly all of these big airframes around today are designed for heavy petrol engines which vibrate like hell and are subsequently beefed up a lot to take the stresses and strains of the gas lumps.

Some people think I'm obsessed about weight in aircraft but they all complement the way my planes fly and how slow I can land etc.
A simple example is I now use 3mm bolts to attach a Axi 4130/16 (equivalent to a 0.91 four stroke) to a bulkhead, whereas I used to use 4mm bolts on the IC equivalent.
4 x 3mm bolts = 6g
4 x 4mm bolts = 13g
It doesn't sound much but if you add up all the little savings you get a big saving. (Many drops or water make an Ocean)
This is specially important for 3D aircraft.
The lighter they are the better behaved they are in harriers, waterfalls etc.

But then again you already know this as it sound like you are into big 3D stuff anyway

Cheers
George

gwright
01-02-2007, 06:45 PM
I agree on the weight comments, but this was someone else's plane that he'd converted, I would of course have done things differently, as evidenced by one of my XL's . Their 9 lbs ready to fly, 90 inch span, 1600+ square inches (roughly 30% size although their obviously not scale) http://www.gwmp.net/video/GaryWrightAEF.wmv .

ChinehamGeorge
01-02-2007, 07:52 PM
Hi Gary

Nice flying! You can definitely see the light wing loading.

Have you checked this one out
http://file.espritmodel.com/video/aggressor.wmv

Cheers
George

Larry3215
01-02-2007, 08:16 PM
http://www.kontronik.com/Powerjazz2006e.htm

and

http://www.lipoly.de/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=256_271_254&products_id=3361&language=en

Keep in mind when comparing the large outrunners that they are a good bit heavier than a similar power inrunner setup. That big Cylon for example weighs over 81 ounces.

The Neu Bam weighs about 30 ounces with gear box and the Lehner setup weighs about 58 ounces with gear box IIRC.

That extra 2 to 4 pounds could go into batteries or better flying :)

Larry

Madman
01-03-2007, 01:16 AM
Hi MadMan

Just reading your original post again..... 44lbs for a 100" bipe... WOW that is really heavy!!!!!
Personally I would consider anything over 35lbs as heavy for this size of plane.
For electric power of this size I would be aiming for 30-33lbs

Some people think I'm obsessed about weight in aircraft ...
It doesn't sound much but if you add up all the little savings you get a big saving.
But then again you already know this as it sound like you are into big 3D stuff anyway

Cheers
George
George, I'm really a newbie at this R/C modelling game. I built/flew small models from the time I was 10 years old until I went away to college (and started to fly "the real thing" for Uncle Sam, which put my modeling behind me until last year, when I retired after 45 years playing with bigger birds in the DoD oriented aerospace community... the last ten years spent designing, building, flying and maintaining the CIA's Gnat-750XP, and the USAF's RQ-1/MQ-1 Predator UAVs. In fact, the last couple of years I became the "family" data link guy responsible for the successful enablement of flying UAVs in 20 hour missions over Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq with the operator (we weren't allowed to call them pilots until recently) sitting in a groundstation based in Nevada, for example. But the UAV work makes me REALLY appreciate your weight-consciousness, and understand it fully. I simply need to hone my education in birds of this ("big 3D stuff" you refer to) 35% - 46% Ultimate size, and the help I'm getting from you and others like you is bringing me up on the step pretty smartly. You can't imagine how much I appreciate the tutoring and mentoring I'm getting here and at KnifeEdge/RealFlight.

Madman
01-03-2007, 01:30 AM
I would of course have done things differently, as evidenced by one of my XL's . Their 9 lbs ready to fly, 90 inch span, 1600+ square inches (roughly 30% size although their obviously not scale).
Gary: George's comment is an understatement indeed. I am humbled by your flying (and your craftsmanship) and have much to learn from you and others like you. Thanks for the demo film. WOW!:cool:

gwright
01-03-2007, 11:01 AM
that clip is a couple years old,.. the plane was flying with roughly 1300 watts of power. We now fly them with the hacker A60 outrunners at a touch over 2000 watts, so performance is a bit more "sparkling". Weight is up about 1/2 lb due to the large outrunners and a few more batteries, but as I found with this model, you can get a little "too light" and a model won't snap or spin very well, so they're better at those elements now, and the current power systems aren't pushed very hard, so you can fly however you want and all components land at just a little over ambient temperature. The real key, however, is to use a very large prop. This holds true on the larger conversions also. The XL in the video is uing a 24X12 on 1300 watts which is about the power of a mild 60 glow or a reallly strong 46/50(but into a 24 inch prop).
There's a lesson here <G>. The 46% ultimate i flew had less actual horsepower in it than a DA150 but instead of a 32X12 it was using a 36X15, so the actual output (thrust/pitch speed) is more than you'd get from a DA150. You're always better off spinning a larger prop a bit slower rather than a small prop at ridiculous rpms. In my XL, you'd never think of flying a model that size with a 46 or 50 (or even a 60), but you'd be spinning a 10 to 12 inch prop at high rpms with those motors. The setup in the video was a 24X12 turned in the mid 4000 range. thrust over 20 lbs (just over 2 to 1) and pitch speed a shade over 50mph. Radar actually showed 57mph level but for 3D you rarely, if ever, fly full throttle level and get to that speed so the larger prop at lower rpms is far more efficient for that style of flying. The tiny props used for glow and gasare sort of like trying to fly in 5th gear all the time and you need 1st gear for 3D and most normal sport flying.

ChinehamGeorge
01-03-2007, 11:24 AM
Hi Gary

Nice information, I always knew larger props were more efficient but I didn't realise by how much.

Got any video of it with the latest setup? - I bet's that's very impressive.:D

With the original Hacker setup, was it the C50-14XL with 6.7:1 gearbox?

Do you know of anyone in the UK selling that E3DXL?

Cheers
George

gwright
01-03-2007, 12:52 PM
that video is with a C50 12XL 6.7 gearbox, 7S lipo and 24X12

At the Joe Nall a couple years ago I was flying that plane and a guy had a 40% cap with DA150 on it flying at the same time. We starting playing "follow the leader" some and he would hover and do stuff, then climb out, then I would hover and torque roll and such, then climb out, we'd follow each other in high alpha passes and figure eights,..etc. We were hovering together at one time and he punched throttle so I did the same. I pulled out about 30 or 40 feet higher initially then his vertical speed caught up to mine and we climbed a LONG way till the planes were tiny. He never accelerated and caught up to me in the vertical (we stayed 30/40 feet apart with me higher from the initial leap), so they were pretty evenly matched in vertical velocity, with the electric pulling the gas out of the hole so to speak. It was pretty eye opening and drew quite a lot of comments. I'd always wondered about the actual vertical speed and this sort of validated my setup. Back to the prop thing. I'd played with 8S and 10S setups on that motor and had to drop prop size accordingly. Strangely enough at 2400 watts into a 20 inch prop (10S) it didn't fly as well or have the vertical punch of the 1300 watt 24 inch prop setup. Speed was of course much higher, but that's something you never use on a 3D plane so it was irrelevant. I went back to the larger prop and lower watts. It was much better for the way the plane needs to fly. The A60 setups are 2KW (plus a tad depending on which packs I use) on a 22X10. It's better than the 7S C50 setup but not as much as you'd think, although there are a lot more watts. The biggest difference is instead of having to watch temps and throttle usage I can fly any way I want, let anyone else fly it doing whatever they want with the throttle and nothing gets much over 100 degrees leaving a huge margin in capabilities. The A60 I'm using is way overkill for the watts, but I needed the M motor to get a low enough KV for the 22 inch prop. An L motor would allow the 24 inch prop due to the lower KV's but then I'd have about twice the amount of motor really needed, with another 1/2 lb or so in weight. It might be interesting to try, to get the mass up a little for crisper starts to snaps and spins,..but I'm very happy with the current setup. Again,.. the point is,.. prop size is almost more important than watts,..to a point.

Madman
01-08-2007, 04:31 AM
An aussie friend provided the subject video (need to unzip to view the wmv file:
http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showpost.php?p=71701&postcount=64
I find this very encouraging with regard to the bigger of the two beasts we've been discusssing here.:)

gwright
01-08-2007, 01:24 PM
That's Dan's plane that I mentioned earlier. You'll notice the punch out of hover is very "spritely" compared to a DA, and that plane is a little heavy,.. 52 lbs if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, I'm the one that can lay claim to damaging it at one time :( He had a prop just a little too big for the gear ratio, and I was doing a high alpha rolling circle with it pretty low (he'd asked me to demo it at the Arizona Electric event). Since it was over-propped for the gearing that was on it at the time (drawing too much current), one motor de-magged, taking out an ESC, then a quick chain reaction occurred, taking out more since now 3 motors have all the load, all happening in a second or so. I got it levelled to "pancake" it down but due to what I was doing at the time it was too low and too slow to get any airspeed to flare with, was like a harrier landing that came down a bit too fast. Hit flat and hard. If it had been on level ground it would have just needed the motors/esc replaced, but there was a burm on one side higher than the ground where the gear landed, and it did some damage to the lower right wing panel.

The above comments about inrunners versus outrunners I will adamantly agree with. For ultimate performance and efficiency, the geared innrunner will always win. In my XL,.. I replaced a roughly 19 oz geared inrunner with a 24 ounce outrunner, so there's 5 oz more weight, and few percent less efficiency (the A60's are really high in efficiency compared to other outrunners so it's not a whole lot), but the A60 is the right KV to run a large prop on 10S instead of 7S, thus lowering current and allowing 4000mah packs instead of 6000mah or 8000 mah packs (offsetting the weight difference in 7S vs 10S), everything stays very cold due to the low current/high voltage setup, and most importantly,..it's a $250 motor instead of a $440 motor <G> . I used to be adamantly against outrunners due to the huge loss in efficiency and higher weight, but the Hacker A series are within just a few percent now in efficiency and VASTLY LESS EXPENSIVE. Also, due to the rotating can, you get exceptional cooling, so you can shove more watts into it for a given size/weight motor and gain back the end result in performance. The C50/7S-6000mah example gave me 10 minute flights with 20~25% reserve in the pack. The A60/10S-4000mah setup gives me 10 minute flights with 15 to 20% reserve in the pack, and the plane actually snaps and spins a bit better because it now has a little more mass. In the end, the real difference is that I now have a little less "excess" gas in the tank at the end of a flight. Yes, the geared innrunner is more efficient, but with the low weight of todays batteries, there are other things that can outweigh that little efficiency loss.

Larry3215
01-08-2007, 06:55 PM
Gary,

Why not change the gearing or select a different Kv on the inrunner set up so it will spin the same prop at 10S at the same power levels as the outrunner. Then, to get the extra mass you wanted for the spins and snaps, go with larger capacity packs instead of a heavier, less efficient motor. Now you will have even longer flight times :)

Ofcourse, now you have to pay more for the motor AND the packs - performance costs tho :)

Larry

gwright
01-08-2007, 08:24 PM
You answered your own question in your last statement. The XL was never made into a kit. The way I designed it there is WAY TOO MUCH laser cutting of plywood (Yes you can use a lot of plywood and still keep a plane light if it's used appropriately <G>), and the kits would have had to be 350 to 400 bucks which is totally unreasonable, so I shelved the project as far as making a product to sell. I've thought about re-visiting that with a new design, scaling up my new 63" E3D to 1.5 times it's current size, using the contruction methods I use in it,..which may make a short kit finanically feasible. To do that, I'd want to be able to recommend a somewhat affordable power system,.. hence the A60 trials. There are other considerations also. As you go to higher resistance windings (going up in winding count) the amount of current you can draw decreases. There's not a C50 acro that works with a 24X12 and 10S packs. I tried the 15XL with that, and at 3200 watts on cold packs it was just a wee bit too much (that's just a little bit over the 2200 watt manufacturers rating <G>). When you get to a low enough KV,..the resistance is too high for the current. The low KV A60's allow this.

Gary,

Why not change the gearing or select a different Kv on the inrunner set up so it will spin the same prop at 10S at the same power levels as the outrunner. Then, to get the extra mass you wanted for the spins and snaps, go with larger capacity packs instead of a heavier, less efficient motor. Now you will have even longer flight times :)

Ofcourse, now you have to pay more for the motor AND the packs - performance costs tho :)

Larry

Larry3215
01-08-2007, 09:53 PM
That low Kv one of the reasons the A60 is heavier - a lot more copper in addition to the moving bell structure and magnets.

All airplanes are a collection of trade-offs and budget is often a driving factor. Saving on costs means increased weight and decreased performance - in some areas at least. Make one thing better and another gets worse.

There is rarely a perfect solution - especially one that fits everyones desires and needs. The trick is getting a good balance that YOU like :)

Larry

Larry3215
01-08-2007, 09:58 PM
Forgot one other thing - the large Hacker inrunners are limited in how large you can go on the props at hi voltages. Thats partly due to the gearing and the size I suppose. Can't cram any more wire into that size case and thats probably the highest ratio thats practical in that size gear box.

The larger - and a bit more expensive Neu motors 1515 series and especially the BAM is good for spinning larger props yet at up to 12S and then there are the big Lehners. Of course now budget is getting to be the lowest priority :D

Larry

Larry

gwright
01-09-2007, 11:08 AM
yeah,.. I proved to myself with the XL that you can actually get too light, so weight isn't really an issue. I'm actualy flying a 10+ oz reciever pack in my current one because i was out of Ubecs (BIG 5 cell nimh),.. so with that and the A60 it'sclose to a pound heavier than the original 9 lb ones and I do like it better due to the mass for snaps and spins (never could snap or spin them at 9 lbs, they flew through i like a foamie).cost becomes a major player, and the A60 is far better in that respect.

Larry3215
01-09-2007, 05:37 PM
On the flip side, sometime extra weight is a major issue even in the larger sizes.

My newest big plane is an 85" span full fuse, full airfoil foamy that came in at 6.25 pounds. It wont snap worth a darn either, but it will spin - sloooooowly :D In this case, extra mass was not an option. The structural strength of the foam is a limiting factor. I had to keep weight to a minimum. Also, because I wanted it to fly like a foamy - which it does :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k93vPVf-7U


Larry

Mike Parsons
01-09-2007, 06:32 PM
I hope you offer a short kit one day Gary. I have an A60 18M that needs a home.

Madman
01-10-2007, 07:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k93vPVf-7U
Larry
Can't seem to get anything from this link other than an infinitely long text file. Haven't bumped into this phenom before. Am I alone?:o
Thx,

Larry3215
01-10-2007, 07:53 AM
Thats odd - I just tried it from the copy in your post and it works fine for me.

Is the YouTube site comming up at all?

Larry

Madman
01-10-2007, 08:07 AM
Larry,
Youtube seems to be AOK and working 5X5 on my PC. Yet when I click on the link quoted in my message to you, it comes up screwy just as it did when I tried to pull it up from your link.
Can I search on the final hook in the URL string and get it? I'll try that.:confused:
Bob
aka

Madman
01-10-2007, 08:21 AM
That's a strange one ... I truncated the address by chopping off the "http://" and plugged it in, and got to the video on Youtube perfectly! Quirky!

Nice piece of flying by Kyle ... do you have the CG set at the aft-limit? Some of the inverted high-alpha harriers are hard to duplicate with my heavier birds (in the G3.5 sim, of course). Don't (yet) have a 85" foamie that weighs in at 6.5 lbs in my sim hangar, so I douldn't play with the physics to duplicate some of those slooooooow (but cool) maneuvers. How's she hold up in the wind?

Madman
01-16-2007, 01:11 AM
http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showpost.php?p=72517&postcount=67

Already sent a request to Hacker for info. Anyone else here have any experience with these?

Larry3215
01-16-2007, 06:30 AM
That's a strange one ... I truncated the address by chopping off the "http://" and plugged it in, and got to the video on Youtube perfectly! Quirky!

Nice piece of flying by Kyle ... do you have the CG set at the aft-limit? Some of the inverted high-alpha harriers are hard to duplicate with my heavier birds (in the G3.5 sim, of course). Don't (yet) have a 85" foamie that weighs in at 6.5 lbs in my sim hangar, so I douldn't play with the physics to duplicate some of those slooooooow (but cool) maneuvers. How's she hold up in the wind?

The CG still needs to go back some more. It takes some down to hold inverted - a tad more than I usually like. When Kyle is flying it doesnt seem to matter where the CG is - any plane he is flying always looks good :)

The big foamy handles moderate winds just fine, but it is very lightly loaded so its not as good as the heavier birds in strong gusty conditions.

Larry

iFLYrc_Vic
01-16-2007, 09:54 AM
On the flip side, sometime extra weight is a major issue even in the larger sizes.

My newest big plane is an 85" span full fuse, full airfoil foamy that came in at 6.25 pounds. It wont snap worth a darn either, but it will spin - sloooooowly :D In this case, extra mass was not an option. The structural strength of the foam is a limiting factor. I had to keep weight to a minimum. Also, because I wanted it to fly like a foamy - which it does :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k93vPVf-7U


Larry

Wow! wished I had the cahoona's to even try some of that stuff....

Madman
01-18-2007, 03:22 PM
http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showpost.php?p=72517&postcount=67

Already sent a request to Hacker for info. Anyone else here have any experience with these?Here's the correspondence string indicating we still have to wait awhile:
Dear Bob,
As soon as I get some specs on it and am allowed to release them I will get them over to you.
Thank You,
Chris Wheeler
Hacker Brushless USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Manzuk [mailto:rjmanzuk@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:48 AM
To: Chris Wheeler
Subject: If this is true, where can I look to find the specs and details?


Thanks, Chris.
Any chance for a peek ahead at the specs of the A200 so we can emulate it in our sim?
Appreciate the timely response.
Bob
If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Wheeler <chris@hackerbrushless.com>
To: Bob Manzuk <rjmanzuk@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:41:11 AM
Subject: If this is true, where can I look to find the specs and details?
Dear Bob, These motors are currently in development and are nearing the production stage. At this point in time I don't have any specs or to much information on them at all as they are still being heavily tested in Germany. As more information becomes available you will see more and more posts and we will also get specs and data on our website as soon as we get it. More than likely the A200 will be the motor for your application.
Thank You,
Chris Wheeler
Hacker Brushless USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Manzuk [mailto:rjmanzuk@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 5:08 PM
To: Chris Wheeler We are modeling (initially for use in the RealFlight G3.5 simulator, and eventually in real life) an electrified Hangar 9 46% Ultimate 10-300 biplane, and are looking for the perfect electrical motor/ESC/etc replacement for it's ARF-recommended Desert Aircraft DA-150 (150cc) gasoline engine, which employs a Mezjlik 32X10 prop. The 110 inch long, 40 lb airplane has a 100 inch upper/lower wingspan, with 3310 sq in wing area, at a loading of 27.85 oz/sq ft. 6 channels with 15 servos. Any recommendations for pertinent Hacker equipment we might employ? Need manuals and specs, or references on where to go to get same.
thanks,
Bob Manzuk
aka
MadMan

Joacim
01-29-2007, 10:45 PM
I belive special versions of Plettenberg Predator can handle 15kw of power, combine this with 15s Lipo and new Jeti SPIN 200A, one motor-prop-ESC, best efficiency in both cost and performance ;)

http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/german/erfolge.htm
http://web.telia.com/~u15807747/
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg83/9305-plettenberg-orbit-brushless.html
http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Motoren/aussen/Predator/Motor.htm

Madman
01-29-2007, 11:36 PM
I belive special versions of Plettenberg Predator can handle 15kw of power, combine this with 15s Lipo and new Jeti SPIN 200A, one motor-prop-ESC, best efficiency in both cost and performance ;)

http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/german/erfolge.htm
http://web.telia.com/~u15807747/ (http://web.telia.com/%7Eu15807747/)
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg83/9305-plettenberg-orbit-brushless.html
http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Motoren/aussen/Predator/Motor.htmI am so impressed with the effort you put into our project in our behalf. Thank you VERY much for your effort. We will price these out, and put them into our comparison matrix; and will publish the matrix when all returns are in.
It appears that your recommendation would be a fine 3D performer, but we will assess that with people who are far more expert than I.
Have a great week, Joacim.:)

Joacim
03-13-2007, 01:02 PM
http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Motoren/aussen/Predator37/Motor.htm


1,9kg motor 15kw power ;)

Madman
03-13-2007, 11:57 PM
http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Motoren/aussen/Predator37/Motor.htm
1,9kg motor 15kw power ;)
Once again, thank you. this Predator 37/06 motor and its companion Future 40.160H ESC, coupled with a CFK 29x12 Kl 3Bl propellor, may be exactly the combination I want to start with for my 46% Ultimate conversion project.

I have written to Plettenburg for pricing and technical data sheets on the motor.

The Predator 30 motor was 875 Euro ($1164 US), so I imagine the 37/06 will be a bit more expensive. Its performance on the Delco Raven with 14 LiPos was amazing! I believe the ESC will cost 644 Euros ($857 US).

Since the airplane ARF kit will cost ~$1700 US, and the batteries another $1500 US, the cost of this mix is hardly inconsequential, but the performance should be stunning.

Anyone want to buy a wife (43 years in bondage), 30 year old house and 3 year old car? Time for me to begin a'trading, I believe.:p

Joacim
03-14-2007, 12:11 AM
Even better would be to use the new Predator with Jeti SPIN300 and 15s Lipo EVO cells to get maximum performance.

Madman
03-14-2007, 08:05 AM
Even better would be to use the new Predator with Jeti SPIN300 and 15s Lipo EVO cells to get maximum performance.
I'm having no succeess with Google finding anything about the SPIN 300. All links I can find to the Jeti family of ESCs don't mention that one. Sorry to trouble you, but might you have a link?
Thanks again for your help. I'm excited about this bird.:)

Joacim
03-14-2007, 11:14 AM
http://www.hacker-motoren.de/images/Catalog07/Hacker-2007-Web38u39.pdf

Madman
03-15-2007, 03:39 PM
http://www.hacker-motoren.de/images/Catalog07/Hacker-2007-Web38u39.pdf
I must ask how you learned of this motor, since clearly it is VERY new to the market ... so new I can't yet purchase it?
I will keep trying, and thank you again for your recommendations:
Dear Mr. Manzuk,

thanks for your inquiry.

At time I don't have more datails about the price of the Predator 37/06, but I think they will be available in the next weeks.
We will send a mail if more informations are available.

Best regards
Mit freundlichem Gruß

Manuel Wuest
TEAM Plettenberg

Plettenberg Elektromotoren
Rostocker Str. 30
D - 34225 Baunatal
Tel: ++49 (0) 56 01 / 97 96 0
Fax: ++49 (0) 56 01 / 97 96 11
www.Plettenberg-Motoren.com (http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/)

Mike Parsons
03-15-2007, 03:47 PM
Joacim is in the know ;)

Joacim
03-15-2007, 04:16 PM
Yes motor and controller are very new, will be avalibul this year i belive, you also have one more option, that is the new Hacker A200 outrunner that is stated to handle 15kw on 14s Lipo, i have no detaled information of this motor and have not testead none in the hacker outrunner family.

Madman
03-15-2007, 09:51 PM
Yes motor and controller are very new, will be avalibul this year i belive, you also have one more option, that is the new Hacker A200 outrunner that is stated to handle 15kw on 14s Lipo, i have no detaled information of this motor and have not testead none in the hacker outrunner family. Ah Joacim ... Not only are you "in the know" as Mike Parsons suggests, but you must also be clairvoyant, in view of this correspondence today with the folks at Hacker:
Hi Bob,

What an exciting project, thank you for your interest in Hacker Brushless Motors. We absolutely have a system for that plane. It’s going to require an A200 with the Hacker MasterSpin 300. Your going to need to run 14S and a 30X14-32X12 Mejzlik prop.

The A200 specs are as follows:

Max Watts 15,000
Continuous Amps 185A
Max Bursts 300A
Idle current 5.1A
Resistance .0105
RPM/V 151
Weight 5.7lbs
Diameter 109mm

The only issue at the moment is the MasterSpin 300. Hacker and Jeti are working very hard to finish the production of this esc. and work out some of the small bugs. So at this point they aren’t availa bl e. The system (motor and esc) will cost $1649.00 and I hope to have them available for shipping by April.

Best Regards,
Kyna Veatch
Office Manager
Aero-Model/Hacker Brushless USA

The 30-32 inch prop sounds just a bit large to me, so I'd ask for your opinion on that ... I was thinking more along the lines of a 3-bladed 28.5 or 29 inch prop on the Plettenberg, and I don't see why this one would do better with a larger prop?

I'm pleased that the Hacker "system" price for the A200 and the MasterSpin 300 ESC will be in the $1650 US range. :cool: I expected to have to pay more. No doubt there will peripherals? Perhaps an ESC programmer or something like that, that will run the cost up more. The Plettenberg motor by itself would cost nearly that much, I expect (once they get it to market).

In your opinion, should I devote all of the 14S LiPo power to the motor, and add separate batteries for the receiver and servos? I've heard various philosophical arguments on keeping the flight-power isolated from the radio and control power, and wondered how you felt about that? Is it merely a matter of endurance, or is there more to it, like reliability, for example?

As always, thank you, Joacim, for your very kind assistance. Come to San Diego and help me maiden this system in the May or June timeframe, assuming Hacker comes through with equipment in april as they suggest at this moment.:)

Mike Parsons
03-15-2007, 09:58 PM
A100 and A200 motors are sweet :)

Joacim
03-15-2007, 10:53 PM
Would love to maiden your "beast" but its a long trip from sweden im afraid ;)

The way i see it, you have to wait for the SPIN300, i see no other good option for these motors!

It is hard to know the A200 performance withaout messured prop data simular from Plettenberg, the Predator 37 have already been proven that it is a sucsess and a working reliabel high performance motor.

Regarding big props, i belive the big predator was equiped with 3blade to keep the size down, i might have to do the same thing with my 10kw setup, ofcorse you can do the same thing with the Hacker, 2blade 30+" or 3blade 28-29+" but the predator has higher KV so it will work better on "smaler" props higher rpm.

I recomend you to have a separate powersuply to resiver and servos for exampel a reliable powerbox, your plane need alot of strong servos,
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652965
Follow the link and you will see my radio instalation, powerbox with 2X Duralite 2800mAh Liion batterys.

For a project this BIG! dont hesitate to ask of help if you are not sure, tru forums like this, or feel free to contact me tru mail and maby i can help if needed.

Another VERY imortant thing wehen using 12-15s Lipo setups is the qualety and perormance of the battery packs, after hard reserch/testing i desided to go with Flightpower, there matching of cells/packs is outstanding.

Madman
03-16-2007, 10:31 PM
Would love to maiden your "beast" but its a long trip from sweden im afraid ;)San Diego in the Springtime is really a great place to be. You don't know what you're missing. We'll keep a guest room open "just in case' you change your mind ... assuming, of course that the Jeti folks come through with that ESC.
It is hard to know the A200 performance without measured prop data simular from Plettenberg, the Predator 37 have already been proven that it is a success and a working reliable high performance motor.I've asked Hacker to provide similar data ... I have no experience with them, so I don't know if they will come through or not. If they do, I'll share it. Otherwise, I guess I'll make some RPM charts myself once I get the equipment.
I recommend you have a separate powersupply to receiver and servos for example a reliable powerbox, your plane needs a lot of strong servos,
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652965
Follow the link and you will see my radio instalation, powerbox with 2X Duralite 2800mAh Liion batterys. NOW I understand what Mike Parsons meant in his messages earlier in this thread. You're a very accomplished young man (7 years younger than my youngest daughter), and I'm VERY impressed with your work, and humbled by your continued willingness to assist us newbies in our evolution in the hobby. Good thread! and some of your videos, as well. Your facial expression at the end of your maiden flight tells all to those of us who haven't done anything this big before. WELL DONE!
I wish my Swedish were as good as your English. In your videos, Sodertalje Hlpt, Sweden (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/NetGeo/plotimage.php?lat=59.2&lon=17.6167) looks like a very beautiful place to fly R/C.
And once again, thanks for your willingness to help me.:)

ElectricFlyGuy
03-17-2007, 02:34 AM
Very nice!! I am impressed! Keep up the good work. Scott;)
San Diego in the Springtime is really a great place to be. You don't know what you're missing. We'll keep a guest room open "just in case' you change your mind ... assuming, of course that the Jeti folks come through with that ESC.
I've asked Hacker to provide similar data ... I have no experience with them, so I don't know if they will come through or not. If they do, I'll share it. Otherwise, I guess I'll make some RPM charts myself once I get the equipment.
NOW I understand what Mike Parsons meant in his messages earlier in this thread. You're a very accomplished young man (7 years younger than my youngest daughter), and I'm VERY impressed with your work, and humbled by your continued willingness to assist us newbies in our evolution in the hobby. Good thread! and some of your videos, as well. Your facial expression at the end of your maiden flight tells all to those of us who haven't done anything this big before. WELL DONE!
I wish my Swedish were as good as your English. In your videos, Sodertalje Hlpt, Sweden (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/NetGeo/plotimage.php?lat=59.2&lon=17.6167) looks like a very beautiful place to fly R/C.
And once again, thanks for your willingness to help me.:)

Joacim
03-17-2007, 11:50 AM
http://www.pjs-modellhobby.com/galleri.htm

Here you can find old movies of come conversions i have made.

The opertunity i have had to cooperate direct with manufactors like Flightpower, Köhler, Jeti, Mejzlik and more have giving me some experience in the field, now when this high powered systems (10s+) are avalibul for everyone and the products are hitting the market i will ofcorse give help to those who wants it!

I am confident that Jeti will come tru with the SPIN300, they have been working with these new controllers a long time now, but i know they wont relese it before it is 100% perfect!

If i get opertunity to travel to San Diego i will let you know :)

Madman
03-17-2007, 08:39 PM
http://www.pjs-modellhobby.com/galleri.htm
Here you can find old movies of come conversions i have made.ack själv , Joacim, du er många.
(Let me know if I got that correct; it's the first time I ever tried to write anything in Swedish.):)

Joacim
03-17-2007, 09:33 PM
Battery you Joacim you are many ;) (translation)

But pretty good for the first time!

Lets start by saying hallo! / Hej!

Madman
03-17-2007, 11:28 PM
Battery you Joacim you are many ;) (translation)
But pretty good for the first time!
Lets start by saying hallo! / Hej!
Oh my! That IS embarrasing. :o The free English-to-Swedish translator I grabbed online took my message and really distorted it. In english, what I meant to say is: "Thank you, Joacim. You are a good man!"
I guess I should stay with my native language, and avoid further embarassment.

Joacim
03-18-2007, 12:16 AM
No problem, i understand you havent been reading english/swedish in shool like we do in sweden.:rolleyes:

"Thank you, Joacim. You are a good man!"
Tack Joacim, du är en god man!



Have you been thinking more abaout your complete setup?

Predator 37/ Hacker A200
SPIN300
14 to 15s Lipo-
Servos-
Powerbox-
Reciver battery-
Connectors-
Motormount-
Prop-

Madman
03-18-2007, 12:50 AM
Have you been thinking more about your complete setup?

Predator 37/ Hacker A200
SPIN300
14 to 15s Lipo-
Servos-
Powerbox-
Reciver battery-
Connectors-
Motormount-
Prop-
I am still waiting for Plettenburg's reply to my request for price and availability information for the Predator 37/06 and the Future 40.160H ESC, coupled with a CFK 29x12 Kl 3Bl propellor. I think they must be out flying instead of responding to correspondence\inquiries. Or perhaps they are inundated with inquiries on their new products and haven't reached mine in the queue just yet?

I expect final price and availability information from Hacker this next week for both the A200 and the MasterSpin 300.

In RealFlight's G3.5 simulator, I am working to come up with a variant model of the 46% Ultimate TOC that will start with the Hacker A200 motor (for which I do have all the information I need)equipped initially with a Mejzlik 30x14 (or perhaps a 32x12). I'm inclined to go with the Jeti MasterSpin 300 ESC, and its associated Jeti MasterBox programmer.

When I get the information from Pletenburg, I'll try to model that as well and do a few fly-offs in the simulator to make some qualitative comparisons before writing any checks to any suppliers. That's just a security blanket for me ... and fully recognize that the fidelity of my simulations could lead me to a wrong decision. I'm trying to be very careful, however. I've modeled a couple of smaller airplanes, and their fidelity has been pleasantly similar to the real airplanes I own and fly.

I am still investigating your recommendations for servos and batteries. There are 15 servos on this 46% bird (1 "throttle", 2 elevator, 8 aileron, and 4 rudder), so I know I must also select match-boxes of some sort to avoid unecessary battery drain due to mismatching.

The motor mount selection awaits my final selection of a specific motor. And, quite honestly, I haven't yet given ANY thought to connectors, but noted your illustrations on your website, and am reviewing that and other information and will be carefully thinking that through in due time.

I'll select the control system batteries when I make the final selection of servos, to go along with my Spektrum AR7000 dual-receiver. DS821 servos from Spektrum output up to 72 inch-oz of torque, and I've found them very reliable so far on smaller airplanes with heavily-loaded flight control surfaces.

Joacim
03-19-2007, 06:19 PM
To me a 30" prop seems big, but that is when i think abaout 36% scale like the Katana, your plane is havier and larger so it could handle bigger prop withaout to much torq movment tru aerobatic, but as i said before you can always go for 3blade.

Biggest coonectors i can think of is the 6mm LMT gold bullets, you are aming for 15kw on 14-15s Lipo with one ESC/motor that means they must handle 300Amps.

With todays state of the art Lipos on the market up to 50c you dont have to use more than 2p, you will have enough capacity and power but also low weight, configure the pack in 3pices, make sure thoce packs are matched togheter, makes it easier to charge/balance and you can use them in other planes, diffrent sizes.

Regarding late reply from european manufactors, i think they have been to hobby expo.

Madman
03-19-2007, 07:52 PM
Biggest coonectors i can think of is the 6mm LMT gold bullets, you are aming for 15kw on 14-15s Lipo with one ESC/motor that means they must handle 300Amps.
I have a lot to learn. the devil is indeed in the details. What fun!
With todays state of the art Lipos on the market up to 50c you dont have to use more than 2p, you will have enough capacity and power but also low weight, configure the pack in 3pices, make sure thoce packs are matched togheter, makes it easier to charge/balance and you can use them in other planes, diffrent sizes.I have an "expert" or two on another forum that are recommending Lithium-ion batteries since they claim L-ions are less expensive, smaller and lighter-weight than LiPos. You seem certain that LiPos are the better choice. Is that your experience, or is there some reading material out there that I can learn from? I could swear I read somewhere that Lithium-ion technology is obsolete, and is relegated to the past, along with NiMH and other earlier but obsolescing batteries?

Regarding late reply from european manufactors, i think they have been to hobby expo.I sadly received an answer this morning from Plettenburg-Elektromoren:(:
Dear Mr. Manzuk, at the moment we don't have the exact price of this motor, but it will be approx 1000€.
What informations do you need about this motor?
Best regards
Mit freundlichem Gruß
Manuel Wuest
TEAM Plettenberg
Plettenberg Elektromotoren
Rostocker Str. 30
D - 34225 Baunatal
Tel: ++49 (0) 56 01 / 97 96 0
Fax: ++49 (0) 56 01 / 97 96 11
www.Plettenberg-Motoren.com (http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/)

I believe that pretty much vectors me to Hacker as my motor supplier of choice. I am going on holiday for 2 weeks, and if by the time I return I have no price from Plettenburg, that will cinch the deal with Hacker as far as I am concerned.

Also, I am now considering JR's DS8711 UltraTorque SX servos, recognizing that my hope to employ my old Spektrum DS821s is an exercise in futility. The JR servos have 5 times (i.e. 400/80 in/oz respectively) more torque than my Spektrums. Now I must review if I need as many as I thought. Perhaps fewer more powerful servos will make up the cost differential?

Thx,
Bob
aka

Joacim
03-19-2007, 09:40 PM
Less expencive is tru, but in terms of perfomance i dont know any Liions that will beat Lipo in terms of power/weight/capacity. If you would have converted a big warbird or scale plane then maby, but now we are talking monster Ultimate with monster motor... maximum performance is the aim! :D

Hacker or not, that is your shoice! yes its a havier motor with lower KV but in a plane this size its very little extra, my guess is you need the extra weight to get balance anyway, but some performance data of the A200 would be realy interesting. Also with the A200 you need the new Jeti SPIN300 with progbox, there you also have ability to get amp, volt, rpm data of your powersystem wich is important for final triming.

I will do some calculation regarding Lipo battery with the A200 setup for your monster, will mail you when i get some result.

Regarding Plettenbergs price i think this has to do with that its 100% made in Germany.


see pic of the SPIN200, there are 2+ and 2- cables, soldier total of 4, 6mm gold bullets and it can handle 400Amp, i will not go over 220Amp so i use only one pair.

As for servos this is not my best area, i leave this to the experts to answear ;)

Madman
03-20-2007, 01:01 AM
now we are talking monster Ultimate with monster motor... maximum performance is the aim! :D AMEN!

... but some performance data of the A200 would be realy interesting. Also with the A200 you need the new Jeti SPIN300 with progbox, there you also have ability to get amp, volt, rpm data of your powersystem wich is important for final triming.Yes, I agree that the weight differential isn't much of a concern in this particular application. Here is the A200 performance Hacker has supplied so far ...
Max Watts 15,000
Continuous Amps 185A
Max Bursts 300A
Idle current 5.1A
Resistance .0105
RPM/V 151
Weight 5.7lbs
Diameter 109mm

I will do some calculation regarding Lipo battery with the A200 setup for your monster, will mail you when i get some result.As always, I really appreciate your expert assistance.

Regarding Plettenbergs price i think this has to do with that its 100% made in Germany.I don't understand what you mean here. My biggest problem with Plettenberg's price was not necessarily its magnitude, but rather its unavailability. They wouldn't give me a firm price, just the 1000 Euro estimate. Hacker will sell me the A200 and the Jeti MasterSpin 300 ESC, with its programmer, for approximately $1700 USD.

I'm leaving on holiday tomorrow for two weeks, but hope to have internet access while travelling, so perhaps we can continue the thread while I am away from home.
Cheers,
Bob
aka

Joacim
03-20-2007, 07:23 AM
Ok then i understand regarding the Predator.

Have a nice holiday!

Madman
03-22-2007, 01:11 AM
Have a nice holiday!I am ... and because my son-in-law is very kind, and lets me have access to his computer, I can continue the discussions, even though I am 2000 miles from home.

Madman
05-04-2007, 03:34 PM
??Does anyone have any recent information on the availability of Plettenberg's Predator 37/06 and the Future 40.160H ESC and/or Hacker's A200 with the Jeti MasterSpin 300 ESC? Here it is the end of May, and I still have received no information directly from the manufacturers regarding firm pricing and ship dates. I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever find a power combination that will let me proceed with this big bird electrification project. Meanwhile the flying weather in San Diego is wonderful, and I recently discovered (and purchased) Precision Aerobatics' magnificent KATANA MD :$ which is exceeding my expectations. But, like all the other birds in my hangar, it's so SMALL! ;-)
Question of the day: will I ever complete the H9 46% Ultimate TOC electrification project before I die of old age (just had my 67th birthday and feeling it).
Bob,
aka

Joacim
05-11-2007, 11:47 AM
What we need now is a little patience, i think the Predator 37 is 3weeks away from production/delivery, SPIN300 is still going tru some development, as with shulzes big esc that needs an extra colblock to work good with this power.

Madman
05-11-2007, 06:26 PM
What we need now is a little patience, i think the Predator 37 is 3weeks away from production/delivery, SPIN300 is still going tru some development, as with shulzes big esc that needs an extra colblock to work good with this power. No-one is giving me a choice, so I guess patience is a new virtue I must establish and maintain. At my age, patience is not a common characteristic ... but thanks for your encouragement.

By the way, since we last corresponded, I picked up a couple much smaller airplanes to keep my thumbs tuned, and to distract me from all the delays with Hacker, Jeti, Plettenberg, etc for the items I REALLY want to get. The UltraFly Ultimate is OK (and is my first foam airplane, so I ma learning some new build processes and procedures); but the WONDERFUL airplane is the Precision Aerobatics Katan MD! It can be seen at http://www.precisionaerobatics.com/product_item.aspx?prodID=1104 and if anyone gives you an opportunity to try one, do yourself a favor and do it. Best 3D bird I've seen so far in my short R/C experience.

Since I value your opinion, would you care to comment on this thread?
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19550

Thanks,
Bob
aka

Madman
06-26-2007, 12:09 AM
What we need now is a little patience, i think the Predator 37 is 3weeks away from production/delivery, SPIN300 is still going tru some development, as with shulzes big esc that needs an extra colblock to work good with this power.
Well, here we are nearly at the end of June. Thank God flying in San Diego has been wonderful, making the pain of no exciting build-project very bearable.

I went to the Hacker site, and looked at what's now available, and am disappointed in that I don't believe Hacker's A200 with the Jeti MasterSpin 300 ESC is going to give me the expected (or hoped for) performance. Their product support team let me down, also, and simply ignored my incessant inquiries. :sad:

It's been a lot longer than 3 weeks since our last correspondence on this thread. Have you heard anything recently regarding any progress with Plettenberg's Predator 37/06 and the Future 40.160H ESC? Or any equivalents or superiors suddenly coming to the surface? I haven't.:sad:

What would you think about electrifying THIS bird? http://www.precisionaerobatics.com/product_item.aspx?prodID=110

I am enamored with PA's KMD, and PA themselves as a designer\manufacturer\supplier.

mickey t
06-28-2007, 01:36 PM
Madman,
have seen the NeuMotors GBAM with 6.7:1 gearbox? It's running 20s lipos in a 46% Ultimate Biplane at 45.5 pounds! here's a link for more.

MT

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688499&highlight=SHV+NALLnall

Madman
06-28-2007, 03:42 PM
Madman,
have seen the NeuMotors GBAM with 6.7:1 gearbox? It's running 20s lipos in a 46% Ultimate Biplane at 45.5 pounds! here's a link for more.

MT

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688499&highlight=SHV+NALLnall
Thanks, Mick. Small world. Just met Steve Nue Tuesday evening at a local (SEFSD) club meeting, and will now follow up with him regarding the NeuMotors GBAM/gearbox combo. The price of the bird may very well be going up still again, but at least its reality is now obvious, and it's up to me to figure out if and how I can pull it off. Ah, the life of a newbie in wonderland.:silly:
Really appreciate your info and interest.
Wanna buy stock in a real adventure?:Q

Joacim
07-26-2007, 10:11 PM
I have no good news, but i know a few manufactors are working hard to improve there new products now ;)

Im following the development with interest of the Cyclon BigBoss, if the final product end up as the designer/engineer wants it will be Awsome!

Peronaly i flew the Predator 30 in the Katana on 11kw, i cant belive how good the new Mejzlik TH prop and the new EVO25 batterys perform, after flight of 9min aerobatic the motor was 35c degrees celsius on the hotest spot, batterys 40c, before i flew max of 10min doing some hard aerobatic, i flew 9min on 11kw and have now recharged 3000mAh !?!? battery same configuration and same capacity as before only EVO25.

This powersystem can handle more and bigger planes, no doubt, 27x12" 3blade prop at 6330rpm gives alot of pull, guess on 15s a 29 or 30" prop 2 blade would work good also, will also test how big one can go with lower Volt, maby 34-36" :)

Madman
07-27-2007, 03:46 PM
Good to hear from you, Joacim.
No ... I have no GOOD news either with regard to this particular project. Perhaps this dinosaur-fueled airplane just isn't intended to perform well as a conversion? Someone told me that very early in the thread, and of course I stubbornly wanted to ignore that advice and take on the challenge of making a really high-performing electric aerobat out of a heavy gasser. I've now seen three that have made the conversion, and in each case so far, none have met my 3D performance objectives. Perhaps I should consider something lighter. I know my tiny PA Katana MD is AMAZING. I just wish there were a larger aircraft out there (in the 45-50% range) designed like my KMD. Perhaps Quique will do something like that for the Turbine Toucan, do you suppose? He's not known for his electrics as much as for his amazing fossil-fueled models.
Good winds, my friend. I've not given up hope, but admittedly I'm slipping.
Cheers,
Bob

Joacim
08-02-2007, 09:07 PM
Stop slipping!...instead buld something smal with avalible products ;)

Predator 30 10+kw
Terminator 6kw
actro 60L 6kw
Neu BAM 5+kw
(maby more cant remember now)
Mejzlik electric props up to 27"
Jeti SPIN200
Kontronik POWERJazz

Coming soon
BIG Predator 15+kw
Hacker A200 15kw
Cyclon BIG BOSS 15kw
GBAM 10-12kw!?
actro 60XL 9kw (maby)
(more interesting motors for next seson will arrive;)
More bigger Mejzlik electric props ;)
SPIN300
big CC esc ? maby
Big Schulze... perhaps
(and more new big escs reveled nest year)
;-)

Madman
08-02-2007, 10:23 PM
Stop slipping!...instead build something small with available products ;-)
Yep! I believe we are drawing the same conclusion. I'm waiting to hear just what Quique Somenzini is going to come up with as his first electrified model of the Turbine Toucan [http://www.turbinetoucan.com/aircraft/] (http://www.turbinetoucan.com/aircraft/%5D) and THAT may be my next model purchase. And Precision Aerobatics is hinting of something new coming down the pike very soon as well (just after their new FiberFusion constructed ADDICTION is released to market). If the TT-e promises to be too far away, and PA takes too long to let us know what their next release will be, then I will absolutely revise my plan and try to electrify something just a little bit smaller (or at least several pounds lighter) than the H9 46% Ultimate, but certainly larger than the Addiction, and also certainly a biplane.
Any interesting large biplanes out there that haven't already been electrified that are screaming for attention by a nut like me? One that I might apply one of the marvelous large power system products that you list in your last message?

Joacim
08-03-2007, 06:50 AM
I now have some experience with the Predator 30 and its performing real good, we will max the powersystem by making a 2blad 30" electric Mejzlik prop for max power/trust, load will be 10-11kw on 15s lipo, i think the prop will be to big for my taste and flying style in the Katana, but on the other hand for larger planes perhaps it will be perfect fitt, if we get 6300rpm on 30x12" prop there will be lotts of trust.

I might test the Terminator and the actro 60xl in future, maby some others also.

My friend is running the BAM in his Velox 2,5m on 5kw, gives him good overall performance but he has trubbel finding a good prop becas it has low rpm/v

Madman
10-14-2007, 02:30 AM
Just in case something new has come along that I haven't learned about yet, I think I'll pull this one back near the top and see if anyone has a motor/ESC combo that might serve my original needs/wants? If not, I may let this thread drift off into the sunset and pursue another, less challenging (as in heavy and expensive), bird to electrify.:{

Joacim? Anything to share?

Joacim
10-14-2007, 01:58 PM
Well for a 40+% conversion market is still missing in a good controller, Jeti is still hard at work with the SPIN300.

For "smaler" things pletti have relesed a new low weight 7+kw Predator so there is now 4 motors from Pletti to power giant scale planes, 6kw up to 15+kw, but for the largest 37 no controller avalible, i dont tink there will be any new "big" reseses for giant scale on the market untill spring 2008 as it looks now.

Im working with Mejzlik now to develope new cooling spinners for giant electrics. Will continue to work and test products for larger electric setups with diffrent manufactors.

Madman
10-14-2007, 03:28 PM
Good to hear from you, Joacim. You have reinforced my fears that the marketplace is not yet quite ready for my 46% high-performance-3D electrification project. God willing, I can wait. My otherwise extraordinarily healthy wife of some 44+ years had a heart attack last week, which reminded us just how fragile we are, regardless of feelings or appearances, and how short life can be. She had a pair of stents implanted in her heart, and is amazingly back to near-normal, and walking a little farther every day to regain her strength and stamina. With that as history, I can return to my toys, and hopefully wait until next spring to see what Jeti comes up with for my really big ambitions.

That spinner looks fantastic! As you know, one of my favorite smaller airplanes is my Precision Aerobatics Katana MD, and just this week PA has finally productionized the carbon fiber spinner for that bird ... a project that took them much longer than expected when the airplane itself first released. The spinner you are testing look even more difficult to mass produce. But the service they will perform in cooling the interior of the motor\battery compartments will be wonderful. Great idea. Keep us informed as to their availability in the mere-mortal :ws: marketplace.

Joacim
10-14-2007, 08:09 PM
Good to hear your wife is ok now! give her a swedish "get well" hugg from me.

Regarding development of giant scale electric products, there is alot going on, we have just entered the tru giant scale electrics now with a few strong steps for real, no more multi motor/controller setups with to big Lipo packs of to many in parallel, the years that will follow now will be exiting for us electro nerds i think/know ;). Many have and will followed Plettenbergs relese of the 10kw motor solution, that is a reality thanks to new high C Lipos that stayes balanced and ok during high load in large packs up to 30cells over time, also with controllers like the SPIN200 one can use these amazingly powerfull setups in every day use with eaze.

The Mejzlik spinners are awsome, extreamly thin and light with an unreal qualety and finnish, i have compared a few spinner by now and i can honestly say that the Mejzlik spinners is in a class of its own. If my testing of Mejzlik cooling spinners continues to go well and that there is interest, these and other Mejzlik cooling spinners can hit the market sooner that you think :) also more carbon electric props.

jimboq8
04-02-2008, 07:18 PM
Hi Guys

I am lookin for the video of the electric 46% h9 ultimate, i have seen it b4 and cant find it, The video is of the plane prop hanging etc etc in the dessert.
To my knowledge it had 4 hackers ganged up on a gear box that was made in the uk.

Can you help? cheers.

James

Mike Parsons
04-02-2008, 07:59 PM
Hi Guys

I am lookin for the video of the electric 46% h9 ultimate, i have seen it b4 and cant find it, The video is of the plane prop hanging etc etc in the dessert.
To my knowledge it had 4 hackers ganged up on a gear box that was made in the uk.

Can you help? cheers.

James
61522
I know exactly which on your talking about, but I havent seen it in ages. As a consolation prize, here is one of QQ flying a Hacker A100 outrunner powered Python :)

http://www.rccraze.com/PYTHON.MPG

jimboq8
04-02-2008, 08:59 PM
thanks mike

Madman
04-03-2008, 08:27 AM
Hi Guys
I am lookin for the video of the electric 46% h9 ultimate, i have seen it b4 and cant find it, The video is of the plane prop hanging etc etc in the dessert.
To my knowledge it had 4 hackers ganged up on a gear box that was made in the uk.
Can you help? cheers.
JamesDid a search on MAN's site, and got the AUG 2005 Issue date, but I couldn't hook up to the link ... can you?
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=PubPagi&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle+Title&mid=13B2F0D0AFA04476A2ACC02ED28A405F&tier=4&id=1CC0341914FE4BED8722965CA5BBDCD6
I sent a request to find it in the archives, but no reply yet.
As I recall, that wasn't the best power suite for 3D, and the climbout from hover was pretty minimal at best ... but so far, the motor and ESC producers are 'still testing" a power suite that will meet my needs that led to the establishment of this thread. I'm still interested, but I'm a year older, and likely not to get any younger. At risk of being repetitive ... I said this was going to be challenging.::o

Joacim
04-03-2008, 10:05 AM
Howdy Madman,

Today there are products avalible to do this conversion, i have stared a 42% conversion using the Predator 37, Jeti SPIN300, Mejzlik prop, Flightpower 14s3p Lipo. The controller are only avalible for special order from Jeti. Plane is a Extra 260 but i was also considering the 46% Ultimate, but my friend might do it in near future instead using simular setup. This powersystem equals a 212cc gas boxer engine but with lower weight.

http://wattsup.se/

One other option is now also avalible, the Cyclon BIG Boss with Cyclon Sigma controller, 15/20kw 32" prop and 12s Lipo.

jimboq8
04-03-2008, 10:23 AM
Hey Bob

Couldntopen the video either but got some excellent ideas tho. cheers

Madman
04-03-2008, 03:33 PM
Howdy Madman,
Today there are products avalible to do this conversion, i have stared a 42% conversion using the Predator 37, Jeti SPIN300, Mejzlik prop, Flightpower 14s3p Lipo. The controller are only avalible for special order from Jeti. Plane is a Extra 260 but i was also considering the 46% Ultimate, but my friend might do it in near future instead using simular setup. This powersystem equals a 212cc gas boxer engine but with lower weight.
http://wattsup.se/
One other option is now also avalible, the Cyclon BIG Boss with Cyclon Sigma controller, 15/20kw 32" prop and 12s Lipo.Wonderful to hear from you Joacim. I LOVE your "WATTSUP" website, and have bookmarked it so I can go in once a week and get a spoonfull of humility. You really ARE an accomplished young man. I'm not certain that I'm mentally or emotionally prepared to have JETI build a 300 ESC for m on "special order". No mention of it at their website, yet. I seriously doubt they would support that product for a novice like me, compared to a genuine expert like you. I WILL, however, explore that Cyclon Big Boss ... which at Horizon Hobby, for example, is listed at $1,999 complete with its ESC. (At this writing, Horizon lists it as "out of stock" so there must be others who also have discovered that combo. Do YOU have confidence in them and their products? I simply don't know them (yet). If your friend decides to build the Ultimate, as you suggest he might, please let me know if he's willing to set up a build-thread, so I can learn still more.

You have already taught me much, and I REALLY do appreciate it.
Good winds,
Bob
aka

Joacim
04-03-2008, 04:02 PM
Jetis policy is that they do not stock or provide the 300A ESC becas the setup and powerlevel it can handle realy means one needs to take special care about every detale of the setup, its also more dangerous, with a controller handling 18kw acidents can easely happend. Thats why they only have the SPIN 300 as special order, mail them about delivery time and price.

I have good confidence in the Cyclon line of motors, they are very well engineered and good qualety, i have tested Nano, Micro, PR Line, Power Line, P&F. For price/ performance i havent found any other motor on the market today that can beat the Cyclon Premium. When it comes to power/weight, the Power line with silver wind is hard to beat.

I sat down with the man behind the Cyclon at Nuremberg, Mr Fabrice, he demonstrated and showed/ talked about the new generation of BIG BOSS and the controller for it, its been tested with 15kw continuos power 30min without heat problem, a max burst level of 20kw is possible. Becas of Cyclons safety policy its ment for max 12s Lipo, instead you pull more amps, up to 400A, becas of this and the demanding pole design its ment for use only with the BigBoss ESC.

Weight 2,3kg
10s 32x12"
12s 30x12"
300/400Amp
Max eff 90%+
140 KV
model weight 20-40kg

Last time i spoke with Mr Fabrice, the motor was ready to hit the market, but they where still missing supplys of the FETs for the big controller, i will ask again if the new BigBoss with controller is ready.

Mike Parsons
04-03-2008, 04:07 PM
Opps. Sorry guys, here is the video:

http://www.wattflyer.com/photopost/data/500/PYTHON_MPG.FLV

Madman
04-03-2008, 05:41 PM
Opps. Sorry guys, here is the video:
http://www.wattflyer.com/photopost/data/500/PYTHON_MPG.FLV
Mike ... what do you recommend to clean up the mess I've made on my monitor while watching your video?????

Any specs available on that Python's power setup, beside the Hacker A100, that is? ESC? Batts? Prop? A website reference will do.

All that video does, along with Joacim's continuing encouragement, is reinforce my desirement to do the foolish deed and put together the electrified H9 46% TOC Ultimate.
Anyone have an idea who designed that H9 bird, so I might contact them about taking away some materials for weight reduction's sake without degrading its structural integrity once electrified? I e-mailed H9, but got no reply.

Madman
04-03-2008, 05:47 PM
I have good confidence in the Cyclon line of motors, they are very well engineered and good qualety, i have tested Nano, Micro, PR Line, Power Line, P&F. For price/ performance i havent found any other motor on the market today that can beat the Cyclon Premium. When it comes to power/weight, the Power line with silver wind is hard to beat.
Have you any experience with NeuMotors? Your opinion? Since Steve Neu resides here in San Diego, and belongs to the same model club as me, I thought having the producer nearby might have value when you get into the challenges associated with electrifying a bird this big? (Remember, I still consider myself a novice, although a year since this started has accumulated a LOT of flight time, so I am more comfortable in myself and my level of understanding the related technologies.

Thank you for the continuing stream of valuable info.
Good winds,
Bob
aka

Joacim
04-03-2008, 06:41 PM
I dont have much experience with Neu motors, i have friends that have tested them in Glider/Hotliner F5B and helis, also one that uses the BAM in a Velox. A gerad inrunner for an aerobatic plane is not my cup of tea ;)

Latest info regarding the Cyclon BigBoss, it will hit the market with the controller in 40-50days, the price is 1000Euro- motor 1000Euro- controller.

KV 150
12s 300Amp continuos power possible
Resistance is 0,05Ohm (half of the hacker)

Robby
04-19-2008, 08:05 PM
Could you convert that vid into a .mov,, or at least something other than a .swf ...

Not getting it to load... :(

Thanks,
Robby