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View Full Version : Beginner planes: Why do they have rudder instead of ailerons?


Jeremy Z
10-16-2005, 05:58 AM
I was flying some different models in FMS, and I noticed that the aileron models are MUCH more responsive. When one tries to accomplish the same thing with the rudder, it is a delayed effect.

Is that the whole idea? To make sure that nothing happens too quickly when newb slams the stick all the way to the stop?

It is soooo nice to fly those high performance planes, doing loops, rolls, etc. and not think about $$$ when they go *crunch*.

Also, when the newb graduates up to a 4 channel setup, the right stick contains the elevator and ailerons, and the rudder is relegated to the left stick. It seems like it would be a better idea to save the rudder for later, rather than the ailerons.

Thoughts?

Jeremy

Sky Sharkster
10-16-2005, 12:53 PM
To Jeremy, I think the reason "Trainer" and sport planes have rudder control ( as opposed to ailerons) is that the rudder turns the plane-as viewed from above- left and right, like steering a car. The ailerons drop the wing, about the last thing you'd want a new flyer to do. Then they have to remember to apply "up" elevator to circle the plane, then reverse the ailerons to level the wings. Also most "Trainer" planes have lots of dihedral which resists banking, so the ailerons have reduced effect. Ailerons work best on flat (no dihedral) wings and rolling, inverted flight, etc are easier with fully symmetrical airfoils, this is not the kind of set-up that's ideal for a new flyer.
Also it is possible to set up a plane to have elevator/rudder on the right stick and aileron/throttle on the left, just depends which port you plug the servo leads into the receiver. These Transmitter set-ups are called "Modes".
Mode 1
Left stick, Vertical-Elevator, Horizontal-Rudder
Right stick, Vertical-Throttle, Horizontal-Aileron
Mode 2
Left Stick, Vertical-Throttle, horizontal-rudder
Right Stick, Vertical-Elevator, Horizontal-Aileron
Mode 3
Left Stick, Vertical-elevator, horizontal-Aileron
Right Stick, Vertical-Throttle, horizontal-Rudder
Mode 4
Left Stick, Vertical-Throttle, Horizontal-Aileron
Right Stick, Vertical-Elevator, Horizontal-Rudder
As you can see, most right-handers use Mode 2 or 4, I'm a lefty so use Mode 1 or 3. Something for everyone! Ron

KenS
10-16-2005, 01:54 PM
Not real sure why, but there are allot of planes out there that are a blast to fly and labeled as TRAINER that only have the 3 channels, and us poor fools keep buying them and converting them to 4 channel.

Personaly when I got my very first plane back in 94, it was a trainer but it also had ailerons and it was glow fuel.
My opinion is, if your going to have someone with you that knows how to fly,and you can utilize the buddy cord- go for a 4 channel high wing trainer.
If your going to teach yourself to fly, then maybe the 3 channel method is prefered, but to this day I still don't use much rudder to fly that much.
But today is my maiden flight of my Zoom Zoom, after she is trimmed I am going to heavily experiment with the rudder..this will be my first flight in 6 years,and my very first electric...I'm betting she comes back in pieces:eek:

giflyrc
10-16-2005, 03:59 PM
I am right handed and fly:

Mode 1
Left stick, Vertical-Elevator, Horizontal-Rudder
Right stick, Vertical-Throttle, Horizontal-Aileron

Ya flies what ya learns!

Roger aka GIFLYRC

ForestCam
10-16-2005, 05:13 PM
Started out with a 3 ch trainer with rudder and elevator on the right then switched to mode 2 when I went to 4 ch. Took a few crashes to get used to but I'm glad I switched.

qban_flyer
10-16-2005, 06:05 PM
Simple answer.

Three channel designs are more forgiving of beginner's mistakes, therefore they are geared toward that market. Most of them are high wing types.
A three channel model will have increased dihedral when compared to four channel ones so that in case the student gets in trouble (three mistakes high), all he has to do is let go of the 'rudder' stick and the plane will return to level flight by itself.

Most four channel models, including 'trainers' won't right themselves up as readily as one with lots of dihedral. When I began flying R/C in '68 my Minnie Mambo had a total of six (6) inches of dihedral and a 36" wingspan. Whenever I got in trouble, I would let go of the stick and the plane will self correct. I still wound up with it "landing" on trees many times though.

My first aileron plane had a total dihedral of two (2) inches and a 56" wingspan and handled quite different. I smashed a few of them before I got the hang of having to control the thing all of the time.

Check the photos below. The green one (Headwind "B") is a three channel P/F model, the other one (Hobbico Avistar) is a four channel one. See the difference in the dihedral angles? The excessive dihedral on the Headwind "B" will allow it to self correct its flight stance when the flyer lets go of the TX sticks. The Avistar will not, and will crash if a bad flight attitude is not corrected quickly.

watt_the?!
10-16-2005, 09:47 PM
saw this thread- great question!

was going to write- exactly what qban did. but he already nailed it.

nice post qban.

and again, good question also.

Tim.

KenS
10-16-2005, 11:44 PM
Now all they need to do it make a good foam version of a high wing with slight dihedral for intermediates. Or at least a low wing trainer made of foam.
Everything I have seen has way to much balsa for my taste.

qban_flyer
10-17-2005, 02:33 AM
Now all they need to do it make a good foam version of a high wing with slight dihedral for intermediates. Or at least a low wing trainer made of foam.
Everything I have seen has way to much balsa for my taste.

I know. I am a foam junkie. Don't get me wrong, I love balsa airframes also, but foam is so much easier to work with and it's so cheap!

I enlarged the plans of a very popular, originally plastic covered (trash bags for the most part in the beginning) and carbon fiber model's airframe. I traced and cut its outline onto a 2X4 sheet of Dow's Blucor FFF.

Since the original was called the IFO (Indoor Flying Object) and sold by Hobby Lobby from 2002 or thereabouts, I have chosen to call my one of a kind version the "BLU-F-O" (Blucor Flying Object). While the original could hardly be flown outdoors, mine, being larger and heavier (has a larger power plant also) can be flown in winds of up to 10 mph without problems and it is rather aerobatic to boot.

When using foam, the sky is the limit as to what you can fly. You can transfer the profile of your favorite model from plans to FFF and cut it with an X-Acto knife. Reinforce the fuselage with a carbon fiber tube. Do the same for the wing and tail feathers (no carbon tube reinforcing needed on the horizontal stab). Paint it if you feel like it install your radio gear and go fly in less than 15 hours of total work involvement and less than $5 investment for the airframe.

Once airborne, they all look and behave like flying machines. Photos of my "BLU-F-O" attached below.

timocharis
10-17-2005, 06:44 AM
There's really no reason I can think of to not build a 3-channel aileron plane with moderate dihedral and the rudder coupled to the ailerons to coordinate the turns. This is not great for rolling maneuvers, but probably better than a typical RET plane.

I've seen a few flat-wing designs like this and they fly fairly well.


Dave North

qban_flyer
10-17-2005, 02:18 PM
There's really no reason I can think of to not build a 3-channel aileron plane with moderate dihedral and the rudder coupled to the ailerons to coordinate the turns. This is not great for rolling maneuvers, but probably better than a typical RET plane.

I've seen a few flat-wing designs like this and they fly fairly well.


Dave North

True, but it won't have the self recovery ability the ones with more dihedral would. That self recovery ability is what beginners need for the planes to survive their first few weeks of flight training.

It's just a matter of choice, though.

KenS
10-17-2005, 09:03 PM
Don't forget about the 28" EPP at slofly.com!

qban_flyer
10-17-2005, 10:17 PM
Don't forget about the 28" EPP at slofly.com!

I won't!

AEAJR
10-19-2005, 05:51 AM
There are lots of 3 channel Aileron/elevator or Elevon planes available, so 3 channel does not necessarily mean R/E/T

The "IDEAL" self training beginner plane would be very stable, and would be able to recover to level flight quickly with little or now help from the pilot.

Enter the high wing, high dihedral angle trainer.

Weight is below the wing so it wants to be upright and level.
The dihedral in the wings also wants to bring it back to level.

Now, you can put ailerons on this plane but if you use the rudder instead, then when you induce yaw ( that is what the rudder does ) it presents one wing to the oncoming air. The air gets under the wing, increased lift and tends to bank the plane into the turn.

When you release the yaw, the wings tend to return to level flight.

That makes it a great combo for a new flyer trying to learn on his own.

Ailerons typically require more active management from the pilot both to roll the plane and to "unroll" it.

So, that is why the R/E/T planes are so popular with self trainers.

Also, they can be flown with a much less expensive 3 channel radio. That means only one stick to manage and one stick to learn. Again, easier for the self trainer.

They only require a 3 channel recieiver and only 2 servos. That helps make the planes lighter and makes them inexpensive to build as RTFs or easy to build low cost ARFs and kits.

All of these have contributed to the popularity of the 3 channel R/E/T electics that are selling like hotcakes. :)

You can use the same 3 channel set-up to fly R/E/T, A/E/T or Elevon/throttle and go from highly stable trainer to highly aerobatic A/E plane to a wildly responsive flying wing. All with a low cost 3 channel radio.

Unbalanced prop
10-19-2005, 04:35 PM
Now all they need to do it make a good foam version of a high wing with slight dihedral for intermediates. Or at least a low wing trainer made of foam.
Everything I have seen has way to much balsa for my taste.

MM has a nice one called the "Magpie".

http://www.mountainmodels.com/planes.php

Doug

qban_flyer
10-19-2005, 06:35 PM
MM has a nice one called the "Magpie".

http://www.mountainmodels.com/planes.php

Doug

That Magpie is a very nice looking model. I'd bet it flies as good as it looks.

Thanks for providing us all with the link to Mountain Models. Quite a few nice other models there too.

Unbalanced prop
10-19-2005, 06:40 PM
I have three of Doug's models and they all are easy to build and fly great. I have the Switchback (both versions), the Panic and the Flashback. Think I might get myself a Christmas present and buy the ETana.:D

Doug

qban_flyer
10-19-2005, 06:55 PM
I have three of Doug's models and they all are easy to build and fly great. I have the Switchback (both versions), the Panic and the Flashback. Think I might get myself a Christmas present and buy the ETana.:D

Doug

I do that all year 'round. It's Xmas every week of the year around here!

I liked the Magpie AP in particular. What a nice AP model. I will get me one of those for next week's Xmas Day.

Unbalanced prop
10-19-2005, 07:08 PM
I will get me one of those for next week's Xmas Day.

LOL..........:D :) :cool: :rolleyes:

Doug