combined A10 thread

[PiedmontQC]

Hello,

I am new to electrics, I have not even tested my $20 Yak yet.
I am looking for any info on the GWS A-10. I have read about
the mods that should be done as far as adding strength to the
airframe. I would like to know about what sort of power system
upgrades work with this plane, ie... motor specs, battery capacity.
and the like. Do you have to use 2 speed controls or 1 with higher
Amp rating? I ordered a $30 brushed speed control from Tower and
they sent me a 45 Amp brushless unit. If there is a way to wire this
up to twin brushless motors I think this could be a project I might
like.

Thanks all............................................... ................Al T.

[RickAvery]

I’ve built an A-10 with the e-flightline set up of twin hi-max 2015 4100s & two CC 25amp ESCs. I’m using a Kokam 2000mah 3s 15c LiPo. I built it up a bit heavy with carbon spars in the fuselage, wing, horiz. Stab. and nacelle supports. The plane is very fragile and will not tolerate rough landings without damage. The 3s is a little high on the wattage for the 2015 4100s so I don’t fly at WOT for extended periods but she does fly well when I do!! On the bench it pulled 28amps static. After 75 or so flights, the motors are still running fine. I built with no landing gear as I have to land on a smooth hard pack dirt runway. Hand launch, belly land. She has plenty of power and flies with good authority. Cruising around at half throttle she looks very scale and sounds like no other. (can you say vacuum cleaner? LOL). I used 2 cc 25 ESCs and I didn’t cut the red, center wire from one of the ESCs, I just carefully released the pin from the connector and taped it back out of the way. You need a ‘Y’ connector. Two leads from the ESCs into one lead into the Rx.. You disconnect one of the red, center, wires because the Rx only needs one source of power. My ESCs are located in the fuse behind the TE of the wing. Mine got hot and cut out so I put 2 small air scoops on each side of the fuse just under the front of each nacelle and a small scoop facing backward on the belly just in front of the horiz. Stab. as an exhaust. No problems since. This plane has been a great learning tool. I’ve stacked her in a couple of times and without the added reinforcement she would have been un-repairable. She is sporting a bit of extra weight now (glue), but with the powerful motors still flies fine. Good luck!
Rick

[John.G]

I've been flying mine for 27 flights and love it 4 repairs and the last one I just removed the nose(fast plane and big hand).I myself have the 55 stock fans with 2100 3 cell LiPo pack and that works great flying.Most of the time at half throttle and it seems to be happy.One fan had to be replaced as well the fuse has been repaired three times once removing the tail and twice at the wing saddle.I am using one speed controler for both motors as well all that I have done is fiberglass packing tape on the bottom of the wing as well as on the bottom of the rudders and landing gear pods.I belly land with no gear(in the grass) but not to fast or you will split the plane inhalf.Enjoy the plane and rememberthere foam and glue back together very fast,John

[PiedmontQC]

Thanks for the info guys.

John G. what speed control are you using and do the motors last?

.................................................. ................AL T.

[John.G]

I have a castle 35 brush speed controler and the only reason is it was what I had on hand.But it handles everthing well and cuts out when battery power is low(two repairs because of that)to save some juice to control for landing(12-15min).As to the motors there still going strong but I fly most of my flight around half with a few hi speed passes if you could call them that.No were near as fast as brushless but then again I don't have to reniforce the plane as much either so its a trade off.
Motors are still the same ones that came with the kit but I did replace a fan as it flew apart in flight but that was cheap even for me in Cananda with the exchange.
Just remember to keep it lite as I fly it close in and sometimes at a walking speed.I've never had the trouble that I read about as it just keeps flying even with alittle bit of glue now and then.Hope you injoy it as it can be alot of fun as is mine.
By the way I have seen the wings flex on mine but that never did anything and as well enverted flight is good just don't pull up hard(repair #3 lol)

[drksyd]

I have to agree with John. I think the best setup for this plane is to keep it light as possible. However, it's too windy here so I'll be running mine with the setup that Rick has, if I ever get to building it. My first A-10 flew good with the stock edf 50's but those little motors can't push it to well in any kind of wind.

[jonnyjetprop]

I'm running the eflightline setup with himax 2015-3600, two CC phoenix 10 mounted aft of the fans for cooling and a single TP 3s 2100 gen 2 pack. I beefed up the model by adding short pieces of cf shaft from the nacelles to the fuse, I cut out a large hatch for the battery and epoxied cf shafts inside the fuse just below the hatch to strenghten the fuse. I don't use the landing gear and just hand launch it and land it on its belly. The only thing I'd change would to use two servos for the ailerons.

John

[watt_the?!]

ok after all these years i finally caved and got me the 55 edf a10 ...for $79Au including motors...not bad.

anyways, any mods i need to do?..

anyone care to comment on how it flies with that setup (stock)....video?

i intend to hand launch, no landing gear.

tim.

[John.G]

I love mine its got over 50 flights on it with the stock 55 motors and fans.I did replace the one fan after it can apart in flight but other than that its great even after 7 repairs.I fly mine with a 3/2100 lipo and thats it.It fly's great at half throttle but it not fast but the real one isn't either.

[NitroCharged]

With the stock edf's you'll find it 'parkflies' only, Tim. To get grunt out of it - use gws300 pushers. Bruno has his set up like that and it goes real well!

[watt_the?!]

oh parkfly is good....

ive seen the pusher one..flies great.

ive got a 20a brushed speedy here, that'll do it wont it?

thanks guys, youve inspired me...i went out and did some painting..

[chute42]

Thats looking good! I want to repower mine so how does one remove the motor from a GWS 55 with 300?
BTW I am planning on using Himax 2015-4200 on each fan, any opinions?
Chuck

[NitroCharged]

Since the little 55 only draw about 2 or so amps each, I think you're covered Tim. Chute42, You can't put a 300 in the 55 tube. You need the 100/150 version which will take the 300's.Other choice is to make it a pusher.I have a B2 that I will be making and the first thing I will be doing with the ducts is swapping the 100 motors for BL :)

[chute42]

NitroCharged, I think you have them confused. The 50mm pulls 2amps and uses the ips motors, the 55mm has the 150 or 300 motor.
I did get the fans apart, what a pain that was.
Chuck

[watt_the?!]

just fired mine up...sweet.

ill get the emeter on them some time today probably.

tim.

[NitroCharged]

whoops - my bad. Too early in the morning here on a holiday weekend :D

[RickAvery]

Chute42,
Been running an A-10 with HiMaxx 2015 4100s for about a year now. Using 3cell, 2000mah, 15c LiPo, I get about 5 - 7 min of mixed throttle flight. Don't run wide open for extended periods, the motors nor the battery like it much, both get hot. A bigger batt would be a plus. Good luck.
Rick

[chute42]

Rick, thanks for the heads up on the motors/batt getting hot. I did a short hop before the weather set in and I am happy with the performance.
Chuck

[rcflyer7]

HI guys,
I have an originial Gws A-10 with the 50's in it......needless to say it is pretty anemic. I bought the 55' package for it but have not installed it as yet,( other project's ahead of it). I picked up the Tower Hobby flyer the other day and lo and behold I see that they are making a 300 version of it now. Can any one fill me in on this set up, and should I scrap the 55"s for the 300 set up? Is it the same Plane with bigger motors on it?
I take it that I would have to get bigger nacell's for it.

[Crash Test Dummy]

I'm running the eflightline setup with himax 2015-3600, two CC phoenix 10 mounted aft of the fans for cooling and a single TP 3s 2100 gen 2 pack. I beefed up the model by adding short pieces of cf shaft from the nacelles to the fuse, I cut out a large hatch for the battery and epoxied cf shafts inside the fuse just below the hatch to strenghten the fuse. I don't use the landing gear and just hand launch it and land it on its belly. The only thing I'd change would to use two servos for the ailerons.

John
John,

I just looked at your A-10. Looks like you cut battery hatch out of the top. GOOD Idea!! Heres a picture of my A-10. I set mine up with 2 speed 400 Zagi motors with 4.5X4.1 ACP props. The thrust is awsome. Mine isn't as pretty as the picture any more, But if I build another I'll Glass the entire fuse. My 1st flight I made a perfect landing i couldn't believe how slow and soft she landed.......but the left rear vetical stab snaped at the fuse!! I fixed it and added a long coffee stir as a support. It is much stronger now. Here is also a link to a Video also. In the pic you can see the support I put across the nacels.
http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=25304&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

CTD

[LuckyArmpit]

Dummy, I like your idea with twin zagi motors!!! What size batt pack are ya runnin? I had one of the first A-10's with the puny little motors. Dang thing couldn't get out of its own way!!! I had thought about getting another and using two feigao brushless configged into ducted fans to power the plane.But I kinda like your idea as it would be alot cheaper. A-10's don't weigh all that much but I imagine you'd wanna beef it up a bit with using 2 400 6 volts.Dave...

[watt_the?!]

test flew it today. tossed it in the air, went straight down...broke a nacelle off.

with nothing to lose, i threw it again, with broken nacelle and nacelle pointing off centre, facing away from fuse.

flew like a beauty!!! plenty of power, plenty of speed, cant complain.

only thing is when rpm goes down, so does the nose of this plane.

great value, fun plane.

[NitroCharged]

Good to hear Tim :)

I had a rxer glitch on my Sukhoi while coming in to land this morning and it smashed into the cricket pitch ( hardest part of the whole flying field ). Snapped it in bits. Lots of CA and its back together but not as pretty - a few crumples and dirt stains that will remain.
I also gut a tail gust of wind when launching schmiddy (which is back in service!) and that stalled over and plowed into the deck. Only broke a prop on that one. The wind was up and down and made it hard to fly for fun.

[nova801428]

For the edf fans you can use 2 fiegao's brushless motors, perfect replacement for the 50's, you can buy them at balsapr.com and allerc.com

Nova

[watt_the?!]

actually i was amazed at how much thrust this baby has with the stock 55s.

tried to drag itself along the grass!!

with twin brushless it'd scream, but personally that'd need twin 50 fans with wemo micros and each sucking 20A+.

or dial it down to eahc pulling 15A should enable ROG without undercarriage.

BTW word is that the himax 6800 is insane in the wemo micro with rpms greater than 55000 for 500g thrust+.

Tim.

[chute42]

actually i was amazed at how much thrust this baby has with the stock 55s.

tried to drag itself along the grass!!

with twin brushless it'd scream, but personally that'd need twin 50 fans with wemo micros and each sucking 20A+.

or dial it down to eahc pulling 15A should enable ROG without undercarriage.

BTW word is that the himax 6800 is insane in the wemo micro with rpms greater than 55000 for 500g thrust+.

Tim.
Tim, do you have any links to the micro fan and the 6800 motor?
Sounds like something I am looking for.
Chuck

[watt_the?!]

i just sent an email to www.ductedfans.com (http://www.ductedfans.com)

they have had the wemo faster than we have, and we've had it at 52000rpm for 400g thrust.

at 20A.

So ill wait and see. It mightve been a havker or fiegao motor, cant recall.

I'll start a new thread when i find out.

Tim.

[roccobro]

I this 300 a pusher version? If not, the EDF-55 can be ordered with the 300 motor in the EDF-55 that weighs a few more grams than the 150 motors that have a slightly lower max amp rating. Either one is good, but if you are going to fly it with stock motors use the 300 version with 3s. You have to watch the amps still as it will pull more than the motor can handle. The 150 motor swon't last a flight on 3s.

IMO, get some good BL 12mm motors and use your old EDF-50 fans. With the 5 bladed rotor, it is possible to get over 1:1 thrust and have a light flier still. The A-10 responds better to light weight than more power. I have personally tested some Medusa 4000kv 12mm motors in the EDF-50 on 4s lipos and got 8 oz's of thrust (each) when mounted in A-10 nacelles. I hopefully can finally finish building my first A-10 I bought almost two years ago. :eek: Now that I have all the parts and I have some time off from work.

Justin

[Crash Test Dummy]

Dummy, I like your idea with twin zagi motors!!! What size batt pack are ya runnin? I had one of the first A-10's with the puny little motors. Dang thing couldn't get out of its own way!!! I had thought about getting another and using two feigao brushless configged into ducted fans to power the plane.But I kinda like your idea as it would be alot cheaper. A-10's don't weigh all that much but I imagine you'd wanna beef it up a bit with using 2 400 6 volts.Dave...

This plane sat in my shop for over a year, I didn't even want to build it after hearing about how weak the power was on the stock motors. Then I saw that GWS had a pusher set up for the A-10. So I just got my own motors and some good ACP props and made my own.

I am running 2 types of batteries. The 1st is a Polyquest 2100Mah 3 cell 20C pack. The 2nd is a pack I got from my buddy it's the stock 9 cell 1000Mah 2/3rds A cell pack that he got with his Parkzone P-51. I just tore it apart and made it into a stick config. Both batteries get pushed all the way forward into the nose.

Before I mated the fuse halfs together I dug out the foam to fit 3 cell lipos. These motors won't last long running 3 cell on them so I was thinking of doing another with BL DD motors in the same pusher config. If I do that plane then I'll FG the entire fuse or at least the whole belly, tail feathers, and the LE and wingtips. The foam they use breaks very easy. With the brusklesss power the xtra weight shouldn't be an issue. i would also add CF tape to the wing or a long CF rod running along the entire wing tip to tip. I just have straping tape on the wing now and they flex a bit on hi G pullouts. Also, I put a coffee stir CA'd across the rear horizinal tail surface. On my 1st flight it snaped the stab off on the 1st landing:eek: !! It was by all measures a perfect slow and soft landing too. Thats when I bored a hole throught the fuse and applied the coffee stir mod. I have not had an issue with it since.

This planes flys very nice, smooth and trainer like.
Heres a link to a video of mine. You can see the climb out with the brushed motors is pretty good. However I long for the almost unlimited verticle climb of the BL motors.

http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=25304&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

CTD

[Crash Test Dummy]

I am running a twin puster with speed 400 Zagi motors, running 4.5X4.1 ACP props....WOW!!:eek: I was thinking of putting 2 BL pushers in her for that super climbout power. I have 1 Park 400/4200KV by E-Flight I was thinking about using them but I havn't looked at all the specs yet.

Heres a video...http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=25304&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

CTD

I this 300 a pusher version? If not, the EDF-55 can be ordered with the 300 motor in the EDF-55 that weighs a few more grams than the 150 motors that have a slightly lower max amp rating. Either one is good, but if you are going to fly it with stock motors use the 300 version with 3s. You have to watch the amps still as it will pull more than the motor can handle. The 150 motor swon't last a flight on 3s.

IMO, get some good BL 12mm motors and use your old EDF-50 fans. With the 5 bladed rotor, it is possible to get over 1:1 thrust and have a light flier still. The A-10 responds better to light weight than more power. I have personally tested some Medusa 4000kv 12mm motors in the EDF-50 on 4s lipos and got 8 oz's of thrust (each) when mounted in A-10 nacelles. I hopefully can finally finish building my first A-10 I bought almost two years ago. :eek: Now that I have all the parts and I have some time off from work.

Justin

[Crash Test Dummy]

Hey A-10 fans!

Heres a video of mine with the following specs........
2 Zagi speed 400 Motors
4.5X4.1 ACP props
35 AMP [overkill] brushed controler with Lipo cut off setting
2100 Mah 3S1P Polyquest 20C pack, I also run a 9 cell 1000Mah 2/3rds A cell stick pack that is easer on the 400 motors. 8 cells would mostlikley be better for motor life.

http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=25304&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

CTD

[rcflyer7]

roc.,
When you are talking about bl 12 motors just what kind are you talking about( I am new to this electric game and I really don't know a lot about the jargon). To answer your question the a 10 is the original edf 50's. I have the efd55's ready to go on the bird. Are the edf55's 150 motors?
Rich

[roccobro]

If it has black EDF-55 nacelles, they are the 150 motors (plastic motor endplate too). The grey nacelle EDF-55 is the 300 motor (metal motor endplate). The 12mm brushless motors I am referring to are the Medusa or Feigao motors. I have tested and some are flying their A-10 with the Medusa 4000kv motor on 4s lipos, to make roughly 8 oz's of thrust at ~7amps each side. AUW of an EDF-50 A-10 should be in the 14 oz range if built light.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392518&highlight=medusa+
and
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392518

HTH

Justin

[eal_757]

This seems to be the only way I can post my question, so here goes.
I am currently building a Combat Models A-10. All foam, 52" wing span, tec. I am building it as an electric, ducted fan. I will be using a Midi, 98mm fan unit. I need the best (reasonably priced) motors for this unit. The A-10 should weigh about 6.5 pounds, and I want it to perform really wello. Can any body help[?

[Nobert]

What AUW are you guys flying at?
Thanks,
Neal

[eal757]

I wish I knew what AUW means, but unfortunately I don`t. Buck.

[Nobert]

All Up Weight

[eal757]

Ahaa: All up wt. hah? It looks like it will come out around 6.5 lbs. Depending on batteries. Right now I would guess, Thunder Power, 5 cell, 4000mah, one pack per motor. What do you think?.....Damed cat won`t stay off my key board! I have the 90mm midi fans, and have been looking at Mega 22-20-2 motors.
The Buckster

[Cyclops]

My 81" all Blue Foam with solid parts and a canopy is 5#, 5 oz with servos and plywood spars in tail stabilizor and wing.
I had given up on electric power due to the probable weight and cost. But now a 2 color Camo of Acrylic might be in reach.

I just saw how much money my wife has saved us.:)

It is now my turn to save money.:D
NO landing gear. Figure a full load of wing AGM's to drag.

Plane should not exceed 5 3/4 # to 6# with everything made of foam.

What motors, fans, and NIMH batt. will do the SPORT flying for short flights ?

Thanks, Rich.

[ExtremeRC]

Hi guys, just joined, getting back into RC after a few yrs, used to fly pattern ships but no interest in fuel, club membership etc these days, I want to get into park electrics and nice little scale models.. my business is electronics and I engineer alot of things, just finished machining up new swing arms, hub carriers and front steering hubs for my smartech 1:10th scale truck, its pretty well indestructable now, and with the .18 motor it flies, I think glowplug is still the way to go with buggies :)

ANYWAY, onto the topic at hand.. Where did you get your A10 for 80 bucks Watt_The??? I am looking at the A10 with EDF55 fan assemblies with 300H motors.

I can buy this configuration over here in melb easily, and have been trying to figure out thrust ratios and amps etc with some of the motors I have been looking at.

I have come up with this so far, one motor I been looking at is from a hong kong seller, its 3780Kv, 23*55mm size, 65gram weight, integrated heatsink.
Shaft size is 2mm, same as the stock motor, they are 20grams heavier than stock.

I figured this Kv would give me almost 32,000rpm on the fans with an 8 cell 2/3AA 1200Mah NiMH pack for starters, and a 30A ESC controller for both motors... Am I completely wrong and a total dikwad or am I on the right track??

Obviously lighter BL motors would be better still, I realise LiPo will be better again, I plan to buy the new swallow charger so I can charge anything, is this a good move?

I am so hanging out to get into this its not funny!!! Am busy clearing out all my old glowplug stuff so I can get into electric fully.

On a side note, I was told by the local shop here that EDF is a joke, too heavy, flying time lucky to get 4 mins with decent brushless setup, plane falls apart, he's flown gloplug ducted, and gas turbine, blah blah, and considers what we are talking about here to be toys not worthy..hehe.

After having a friend own a Honda INsuLT electric hybrid, I can just imagine in a few more years that our battery packs will weigh next to nothing, and we will have motors able to run at 50,000rpm in fans for 20 mins on a charge! (wishful thinking but look at how technology is goin)

[roccobro]

Just a observation. The A-10 tends to be tailheavy, and at 65g, those motors are the same weight as the Himax 2025 motors. The smaller 2015's are great drop ins for that fan and plane and weigh about the same as stock. There are other motors that work, but keeping her light will spare the airframe from more landing damage than norm (this foam is weak) and improve it flying characteristics. Git 'er done!

Justin

[ExtremeRC]

I am sure there must be heaps of motors around the 40 gram mark out there, I might be better off just using the stock 300's until I have grown bored/destroyed the plane, as my real plan was to use the fans and nacelles for something else, maybe a meschersnitzel 262 or similar. Another idea was to build a warthog with a real airframe from balsa and use the existing engines and size as a guide. Covered in silver solarfilm, it could be kept quite light and very strong.

Another idea I had was this, tell me if its crazy or waste of time:

I was thinking of cutting holes through the wings, all over, to lighten them right up, then cover the entire wing in a very thin layer of balsa, sand smooth and thin it out a little, sort of create a much stronger wing without adding any real weight. Same with the body, cover it first leaving the bottom open, then carve out most of the excess foam, glue braces in the large cavities, and panel up the bottom. Is this just silly, and should I put this effort into building a complete lightweight airframe instead?? :) hehe.
As for the problem of it being tail heavy, wouldnt playing round with battery pack size etc overcome this without having to fiddle around getting the balance right? I remember balancing my old pattern ships using two fingers under the wing, about 30% back from leading edge, 10 yrs ago and trying to recall all the things I did when flying glow!!

[BaldEagel]

Moca

Get hold of some Soalalight it adhears to foam at 80deg so does not melt the foam and is very light compared to anyother film covering. It also adds a bit of strength, I have a Ultrafly PC9 covered in it and it stands up to belly landings and all sorts of other abuse without objection. its also easy to clean.

So you guys I have just read through the site and still do not know which motors to use in my 55's to get good if not outrageous performance, I do not want to go pusher prop, I'm thinking WeMoTec fan units and brushless Mega motors what do you think?

Mike

[Nobert]

Mike,
Check out the GWS brusless 20mm 4200kv motors. Will work great in the A-10. Available here:www.vampowerpro.com (http://www.vampowerpro.com).
Hope this helps,
Neal

[BaldEagel]

Nobert

I'm afraid I do not like the GWS motors, they are overrated for what they are, put it this way in my SU27 with the brushless upgrade its not worth a damm, much better with an AXI in direct drive not only faster but quiter as well. any other suggestions other than GWS?

Mike

[Nobert]

Mike,
I've heard good things about the inrunners. Give Vammy a call and see what he says.
Another option is the Hyperion X22 series. I have 2 Hyperion 3800 KV motors if your interested.
Neal

[roccobro]

LIke it was said, there are alot of motor options in this area. The Himax 2015's have been in use for about 2 years now. The Hyperions seem to be a great new motors.

Justin

[BaldEagel]

Neal

I'm in the Uk which makes it impractical to buy from you but thanks for the offer, will investigate the Mega motors with the WeMoTec fans, I already have a 22/30/3 in a 2M hotlinner and half a dozen AXI's so I know the capability of these, I just thought I might try something different.

Mike

[Nobert]

Mike,
I don't know what the shipping charges arer to England but try http://www.aircraft-world.com/ for the Hyperions if you want to try one. The shipping charges to the US are very reasonable and quick.
Neal

[ExtremeRC]

Well hopefully I pick up my A10 today, it has EDF55-150's in it stock, but have managed to get another pair of EDF55-300H's thrown in with it for a deal, so I am pretty happy, now I have a couple of spare fans to play with!

Some new things I have been investigating:

YA motors, has anyone used these?? Have been looking at the YA20-30 in a few formats, 4600Kv, and 6600Kv. The 4600 would obviously be a good choice, only 45 grams, 12 amps peak, so two together should run on a 30amp RMS ESC correct??

If I run these motors with an 8.4V NiMH to start with that gives me 38,000rpm potential, has anyone done the calculations of fan size in the EDF55 so as to calculate actual RPM under load? Help much appreciated here, my maths is VERY rusty!!

Of course a 3S Lipo of 1700Mah or so would be pretty stunning with two of these 12 amp motors spinning at 50,000rpm, but would the fans just say g'night and spray their guts all over the place??

That other fan, the one from chech republic, I am keen on a pair of those, would order them direct from the factory to OZ, they look extremely well made. The wemotec is the other choice, but which is better? Keep in mind I intend to use the same fans in a few models as I progress with my designs over the coming year. If I am going to buy expensive fans I would rather buy whichever is the best/longest lasting so I dont have to keep replacing them/parts every few months..

A10 today...WOOOHOOOOO!!

[BaldEagel]

mocca

I only have experience of the WeMoTec fans, which I have tried hard to destroy with no success, none have shed any parts as yet despite contact with terra fima and ingesting soft material, I do not think I have had stones through them but they have zinngnd in the past which sounded like something hard passing through, small nicks on the blades but no real problem after re-ballancing.

Mike

[ExtremeRC]

Thanks Mike!

As I dont have any battery packs yet, I loaded up an 8 cell Tx case with nicads and jerry rigged my new brushed 25amp ESC to the two EDF55's and let them run at very very low speed to start breaking in the brushes and bushes.

NOW, here is some questions I really need answers for asap, as the guy has very few of these motors. 12*30 dimensions, 13gram weight, 4200Kv and 6amp load, these sound like bloody perfect motors to run on a small 3 cell LiPo of 1050Mah, only problem is the 1.5mm shaft size, I would need new adaptors for my fans, or machine up some new ones, has anyone fitted small motors like these to their EDF55's??

The other motor I am looking at is 20*30 dimensions, 43grams, 4400Kv and 12 amp rating with 2mm shaft, pretty much direct replacement for the 300H motors in my fans.

What do you think guys??? Two motors at 6Amps each sounds great from a battery point of view, but the 12Amp motors I am guessing will scream :)

OPINIONS??????? hehe, this is fun isnt it!

[ExtremeRC]

Thought I better add as much info as I can find on the motor I am looking at:
Weigh: 43g Dimension: 20mm X 30mm Shaft diameter: 2.0mm
Phase: 3 Pole: 2
Resistance: 0.22Ω Inductance: 0.014mH
No Load Current: 0.9A Load Current: 12A Turn: 15

So what do the experts think?? 3 cell 1700Mah LiPo with 12-15C rating ok??
Cheers!!

[Bmiller]

Just maidened mine today.
After some major uptrimming(100%) it flys great!
Running 2 Hyperion X22S 3600kv brushless w/ CC T-Bird 18A ESCs w/3S Apex2200 lipo pack. Enormous power, rotors rub shroud above 2/3rds throttle so I let them rub to wear them in! ROGs are easy and as this is my first steerable wheels setup its a blast just taxiing it around...
It does weathervane into the wind on my rough hardpack dirt field but it was pretty windy today. Looks good in the air, I like it!
Bruce

[roccobro]

Congrats Bruce! Gotta wire in my new ESC's and get mine in the air.

Justin

[ExtremeRC]

Sounds great Bruce, does it pull vertical no probs with this setup? Do you know what sort of amps the motors are pulling? I am wondering if the 4400Kv motors I am looking at are too fast, I can get some 3400Kv motors with 0.4ah unloaded rating and 14A peak for about 25USD each. I have a 3s1500Mah lipo from a respected company that is rated at 15c continuous which means 22 amps, I was going to run one large blue arrow 30amp ESC, another guy I know is running 12mm fueagio? motors and he rekons he flies on same battery and ESC as mine, and never uses more than half throttle as it has so much power...

Looking to get 0.73oz finishing cloth next week and some lightweight finishing resin that can be thinned out with metho to make it like water, I am guessing this will keep the weight right down and still give me a hard shell on the wing and fus. Will take measurements of everything along the way and photos, should look good when its done, the guy I met has GWS pico retracts in his actuated by cables and one servo in the wing. Filled in battery hatch area with foam and cut out to suit the retract. he also added flaps, and I think made the ailerons original size using the markings already on the wings. I imagine making the ailerons original size would give you a much more progressive action in flight, using 2 4 gram servos under the wings.

Am going to use 4mm carbon rod and 5mm tube for bracing, the 5mm tube is super light and strong, just needs more cutting out to bury it into the foam. I like the idea of retracts! the mounting plate fits into the original GWS fixed mounting plate, only thing is the wheels fold up sideways instead of back on the original A10.

[Bmiller]

Sounds great Bruce, does it pull vertical no probs with this setup? Do you know what sort of amps the motors are pulling? I am wondering if the 4400Kv motors I am looking at are too fast, I can get some 3400Kv motors with 0.4ah unloaded rating and 14A peak for about 25USD each. I have a 3s1500Mah lipo from a respected company that is rated at 15c continuous which means 22 amps, I was going to run one large blue arrow 30amp ESC, another guy I know is running 12mm fueagio? motors and he rekons he flies on same battery and ESC as mine, and never uses more than half throttle as it has so much power...

Its got vertical but not unlimited. The EDF55 rotors rub on the shroud at anything over 2/3rds throttle so until they clearance themselves I'm losing some horsepower. Each X22S 3600kv fan pulls up to 17Amps on 3S according to the chart I've seen. I'll put my meter on it tomorrow and confirm it.
So yes, 4400kv is too hot for the EDF55 6 bladed fan on 3S. The ampdraw would require a bigger/heavier battery and thats if the motor doesn't burn out first! Now if you have EDF50 3blade fan units I think 4400kv would work on those but I've no experience with those...
I'll reread this thread and see if you posted your setup..

[Bmiller]

okay Mocca I read most of your posts...
You have alot of choices(too many!) since you have both the 150 fans and the 300fans.
go to www.allerc.com (http://www.allerc.com) and click on the hyperion brushless motors
click on a X22S motor then click on "prop data"
That will bring up their charts with the different kv motors in the edf55 fans and show you ampdraws and thrust. Bear in mind that they post some of the results without regard for rated max ampdraw on the motors.

As for glassing this bird, I wouldn't go to the trouble. I replaced the bamboo spars with fibreglass spars/ and a CF rod between the nacelles
and a spar under the stab.
I say save the fibreglass for your 2nd A-10!
Bruce

[ExtremeRC]

Thanks Bruce, thats the first real bit of info ever since I started asking about motors, I was going to give up after reading another thread where the members started ****canning newbies, everyone was a newbie once! I designed and built my first control line plane when I was 14, it flew so well a mate caught it on landing upside down, stall speed was lower then walking pace, low wing aerobatic airframe with an OS29 that i still have 23 years on.

All you scratch builders who say things like "you dont know stuff all till you have scratch built something" pull your heads in, when you have DESIGNED and built a unique aircraft that flies perfectly, then start bragging.

So now I have vented :) Bruce I am going to get the 3400Kv motors, and also get me an e'meter, I saw the Eflight advertised in a mag for 40 quid, dunno who has them in Australia, but will find one. I bought carbon rod and tube, will brace everything like u have done and forget about glass for now.

Yes with the two sets of fans I have great choice, but the only difference with the fans is the motor housing in the 150 is slightly smaller diameter to the 300H, otherwise they are identical from what I can see bar the colour.

I plan to bore holes into the jet nacelles that line up with the hole in the fan housing, so I can remove the blades and motors without any damage. I am guessing most ppl do this??

[ExtremeRC]

Bruce, you say you are running two 18amp ESC controllers, what I would like to know before I go buying new ESC's is, would I not be better off running one 36amp ESC, like the Blue Arrow ones, they are 36/45 rated, with BEC and have all the auto sensing protection in them. The brushed Blue Arrows work real nice, I have a 25amp one of these.

Reason I ask is that the 36amp ESC weighs alot less than two 18's and the motors are going to run identical to each other. Unless I have missed something major, this seems to work out on paper;


My batteries are 1500Mah 15C - 22.5amps continuous supply.
Motors 3400Kv and from your supplied chart I made rough calculations on my battery, I will be drawing 14amps per motor flat out at 28300RPM.

Using the chart as a guide it appears that in the EDF55 you lose about 25% of your unloaded speed when the fan is attached. As my motors are rated to 14amps, everything should run fine on anything less than full throttle, and full throttle should be able to be maintained for 30-60 seconds.

SO! All I need to know is if anyone else has used one large ESC for two brushless motors and had no problems, from what I have read everyone using 2 ESC's seems to find slight differences in the speeds, the Indian member Doc?? was getting the noise effect that sounds exactly like two motors slightly out of sync with each other.

I rekon go with the 36AMP job and enjoy, who agrees??

[Bmiller]

Nope! A single ESC with 2 brushless motors is a bad idea. Its been done but usually ends in a burnedout ESC.(Don't ask me how I know!);)
The reason is because the ESC provides the (timing)switching for the bl motor and to work with 2 bl motors they must be in sync to work and getting both motors to start running is a big problem and can burn up the ESC just trying to get the motors running!
The extra weight of 2 ESCs is not at all a concern or even noticable with the huge power that brushless delivers and the A-10 also has alot of wing area.
I bought my hyperions at allerc.com with the combo package
1motor + 1 T-bird18Amp ESC for 66.95USD as I recall,(times 2 of course!)
I left both BECs connected and it works great.
I noticed NO difference in speeds between the fanunits.
Mine run in perfect sync.
Bruce

[ExtremeRC]

Thanks Bruce, you have saved me alot of stuffing around, so you used a Y lead to hook up both your ESC cables to your Rx, its logical that they would both work identical, as long as the tolerances of the components are close. I will go this way, I can get two 18amp Blue Arrow ESC's for about AUD$45.00 each, I know there are alot of cheaper ones out there, but I have heard so many stories about the cheap walkera etc gear blowing up.... Or is this more wives tales?? :D

[Bmiller]

Yep "Y" lead. no idea about walkera stuff or even blue arrow. I use castle creations or Jeti, mostly because they are easily available at my LHSs and have never had a problem...YET!;)
I did just read that CC says on THEIR ESCs, its ok to leave both BECs connected and it just doubles the BECs capacity and won't affect anything else.

[ExtremeRC]

Hi Bruce, I am wondering how you fitted the X22S motors into your fan shrouds, the fan shroud centre opening is only 6.3mm and the bearing boss on the motor is 9mm. Did you bore out the centre hole in your fans?

The motors I am looking at have 10mm bearing bosses, too big to bore out the plastic mount, and they are loose in the housing, so would be dodgy to try and mount them with just the bearing boss contacting the fan shroud. They fit tightly in the 150 fan housings, but I would need to ream the screw holes out as the holes for the 150 are narrower than the 300H ones. How you mounted yours would be invaluable info before I buy anything else!!

I looked at the ALLeRC site but they only have 3000 and 3800Kv, are your motors current or older model?
It appears from the specs they list, the 3000Kv motor is not very far behind yours in RPM, 27,000 at 10.8 amps pushing 118 watts, the 3800Kv motor runs at 31,000rpm at 16.7amps for 183 watts.

[Bmiller]

I used either a prop reamer or a unibit(can't remember which)and opened the hole up. The X22 with its heatsink slides right in for a perfect fit. I may have slotted the screwholes slightly to get the mounting screws to line up. The "Y22" series are the newest motors and replace the X22 series I think. 3000kv will work fine but it would get rather boring to me. I like having too much power and being able to throttle back. With 3S lipos I prefer a kv above 32-3300 or so with the EDF55 300 fan.

[ExtremeRC]

That makes sense, I have a reamer so thats no problem, but I dont think I will bother trying to fit up these Yama Electronics motors, the amount needed to ream out will leave very little framework of plastic around the bearing boss, although the motor is a perfectly tight push fit. In fact you could run it without screws I rekon its that tight!

I am seriously swinging towards the new Y22S 3600Kv series, will try and see if I can get it at my local first, if not will order it from ALLeRC. 45USD is not bad, the Yama 3400Kv motors cost 30USD, supposed to be quite a good motor, maybe I should try em out, I still have the EDF55-300 fan housings left for the Hyperions :eek: :D

[Bmiller]

Sounds good mocca, but remember my all experience(and my posts) is with the 300 fans not the 150s so I'm not sure of the ideal kv with those....
Also have a look at www.aircraft-world.com (http://www.aircraft-world.com) he's based in Japan and everything goes by airmail so its pretty fast service! Great reputation.
And alot of info on his site.

[ExtremeRC]

I managed to use my dremel with a conical grinding bit to open up the boss hole perfectly, motors fit like a dream, tight as, so I now have 3400Kv fans with 14amp 12V capability, should get me started huh! :)

The only difference between the EDF55-300 and EDF55-150 is the colour of the shroud and the hole diameter for the motor, the 300H motor is very slightly bigger, less than a mil more. The motors I have are Yama from China and fit the 150 size hole perfectly, the fan blade is identical to both, 6 blade fan. I am about to programme the blue arrow ESC's right now, just charged up my first LiPo on the swallow II, charged great, that is one awesome charger, smart or what!! I got 754Mah into the battery then the charger shut down, took about 45 minutes.

Once I have programmed one ESC I will spool up one fan unit and check to see all is well, then programme the other, wire them both up to the male DEANS, and will be able to spool up both motors carefully to make sure everything is in sync.

Tommorrow I hope to pick up a Hyperion Emeter, didnt realise it is designed here in OZ! :D

Let you know how things go, I also have pico retracts, fit the GWS mounting plates perfect, will make them fold up forwards into the nacelles, does anyone know which way the original A10 wheels folded up??
Cheers!

[Bmiller]

Good luck then! Sounds like the motor mount is the only difference and the rotors are the same so 3400kv should be ideal for great power and decent runtime.
I have a Hyperion meter and its very good. It recharges its internal battery with a flight pack so remember to remove it from the pack and not just turn it off or it'll drain your pack down eventually. I killed one of my lipo packs when I forgot and left it hooked up for 5 days!
Don't know how the real A-10 wheels retract, sorry...
I'm working on a new (non ARF)jet and have to learn how to cover the wings with monocote(econocote)Starting to get deeper into this hobby!

Bruce

[BaldEagel]

Bmiller

If your new non ARF is a foamy beware the temp of monokote it will melt or at the very least expand the foam and ruin the finnish, Solalight adhears at 80deg which is foam freindly.

Mike

[ExtremeRC]

When I used to cover my planes I would start at the bottom trailing edge of the wing and iron the film on, then bring the film up over the leading edge, back to the trailing edge, iron it overlapped to where it started, then shrink it tight with hairdryer. For bodies its more fiddly, you need a small iron with small complex body shapes. I found a fibreglass here that is less than 3/4ounce and with a finishing resin the weight would be not much more than film, and infinitely stronger. After cutting the A10 parts out tonight I am swinging more towards glassing this bird and building it properly first time.

Spooled up the motors a while ago, both ESC's programmed and they ran smooth and even, full throttle for a few seconds had a little fan rub, but it almost went away on the first run, sounded BRILLIANT!! :)) Motors did get hot quick though, ran the whole setup on the bench for a couple of minutes at 1/3 throttle with a few blips up and down, no heat from the LiPo, ESC's just warm and the motors quite warm, their alloy bodies transfer heat very quick of course. Measured the LiPo after this and got 3.97v for all 3 cells.

The amount of thrust coming out of the 2 fan units on their own is amazing, in the nacelles it should be impressive. Now I need to figure out where to put the battery, seems most users have found they need to get the battery right up the front, where did you end up with yours Bruce and what size pack u using?

Looking through the parts of the A10 I cannot find conventional hinges, there are 6 hinges with flat tabs on one end and a sort of short T at the other end which I am guessing goes into the wing. I might just get miniature hinges from the local shop, dont like the look of these things much, one end has very little to hold it in.

[Bmiller]

My 3S Apex2200 is behind the front wheel assembly. I just carved out the foam until it fit. I put the ESCs in the compartment right in front of the wing. The RX is there also(gonna relocate it,too close to the ESCs)
CG is approx. 54mm, using fingertip method on bottom of wing.
I use the paper hinges on all my foam planes with CA. Works fine for me.

And thanks for all the covering tips guys, It's a Northrop F-5 by VASA with balsa covered foamcore wings! You can see it at www.hobby-lobby.com (http://www.hobby-lobby.com)
Practiced my techniques on a box using econocote last nite...I suck!;)
Bruce

[ExtremeRC]

Just takes practice Bruce, if you got balsa covered foam you are infinitely better off heat wise, should be easy, tack the sheet all along the back edge of the wing, film hanging down, then wrap the film under the wing, over the leading edge and back to the trailing edge (trim the first ironed join at the back edge) then Iron the film over the top of the trailing edge and over the back edge of the wing, gives you two layers on that back edge. Trim the back edge up again and then shrink the film evenly across the wing on both sides, when you get to the end of the wing you can carefully heat and stretch the film to form the shape, bottom first then top overlapping it. you might waste a sheet of the stuff learning but you will soon be covering like a pro! :)

[ExtremeRC]

As for the A10, I am going to cover it, I just cannot handle the flimsy foam, being used to flying Pattern ships which are dead weight in the air, I am not too worried about a little extra weight. I have weighed everything on my digital scales and will post a before and after weight of every foam part so everyone knows exactly what to expect.

I also bought some of the smallest DuBro hinges, weight 0.2grams each! lovely pinned hinge, will make the controls much smoother. I also bought some K&N alloy tube, very very light and perfect size for the aileron rods, I bent the aileron end, slid the cut tube over and rebent, I also bought new wire just in case it fractured! worked a treat, now when I glass the wing I wont have gunk cloggin up the control rods, and again so much smoother operation. Might take some pics of all the little mods. Will fit the Pico retracts but leave them in locked position, worry about the mechanism for them later.

Now my major problem is what to use with the glass covering!! I been trolling the threads trying to find out what everyone has used, so far I got finishing resin, minwax polyacrylic, and polyurethane (which I am dubious of as polyurethane should melt foam) I NEED HELP!! To all the Aussie flyers out there who glass their wings, what the hell do you use instead of resin?? I can use resin no probs, but dont want to if there is something else that works just as well and is water based!! Cmon guys whats the stuff called!! :) :)

[Bmiller]

Don't ask me about any covering!;)
But I do know some people who've used silkspan and 50/50 water and white glue on other foam models. Its not 'glass but its very light.

Bruce

[ExtremeRC]

Update on the A10 construction:

Wing has been glassed with 25gram cloth and water based polyurethane, carbon fibre brace added, and aileron controls with alloy tube guides.

Wing weight before covering was 65.7 grams, after glass and 2 coats of poly, 89 grams. Needs to be sanded down tommorrow, that will drop a few grams off the wing. To me, an added 25 grams is stuff all on a wing of this area.

Tailplane, glassing it with two coats added about 4 grams to it, and the strength ratio jumped 10 fold. I think I will add about 50 grams all up to all the foam minus the body and engine nacelles.

I may not glass the whole body, will look at key areas first. I have seen too many videos of the A10 landing relatively softly and things like engine pods etc just falling off to not do anything about it! :D

[mixxerx]

Is there a trick to removing the fans off the GWS EDF-55(300)? I have removed the two nuts on each side. What next? :(
Danny

[raynet11]

Is there a trick to removing the fans off the GWS EDF-55(300)? I have removed the two nuts on each side. What next? :(
Danny

I think I remember reading some place that you can take a regular sheet metal or wood screw and screw it into the front hole on the fan and as the screw goes in it will push the fan blade off the shaft ..

[roccobro]

After you get the rotor off the hub using the screw, you can remove the hub from the motor shaft by heating it with a soldering iron of hobby torch until it just barely "smokes" with heat. Pull off with pliers.

Justin

[challeng71]

i've read alot of posts about the EDF 55, not many about the EDF 50's. I'm looking to replace the motors with brushless.

What motors (Brand, Size), ESC (Amp), and Li-Po's (Mah) do you guys recommend using?

Thanks