another newbie aileron question

[charlie3]

This is a first-time post for me here. Thanks in advance for any help.

Two planes are identical except one has ailerons, the other doesn't. Should they behave the same when rudder-only is applied?

In the Clearview simulator there is a .60 gas engine trainer in two versions, one with ailerons, one without. The rudder version banks nicely with rudder-only input. The same plane with ailerons rolls so hard in the opposite direction on rudder only that it's hard for me to make much use of the rudder. Is there an error in the parameters or something I don't understand about the aerodynamics?

I'm building up to a first plane by practicing on a model simulator (Clearview) and comparing that with models flying in Youtube videos.

My flying field is the family farm, is too far from any club. If I'm going to fly models I'll have to make due with a distance learning stratagy.

I'm concerned the model simulator is teaching bad habits as well as good ones. I finally noticed that most crashes were preceded by using power to compensate for sloppy flying so, for some sessions, I reduce the maxthrust variable 50% or more until I'm forced to keep the nose down, conserve energy and avoid sloppy maneuvers.

I enjoy the model sim more than MS flight sim. Time will tell I get the same kick from flying models in the field.

Thanks again for any assistance.

Charlie

P.S. I'm going to video the first real world flights and post them on youtube, for better or worse. I haven't settled on a first plane yet.

[Rabbitcreekok]

Hello Charlie and welcome to WattFlyer.

Airplanes with rudder and elevator only must have a lot of dihedral in the wing to be able to turn with the rudder only. Dihedral is the v shaped angle between the wings.

I don't know about the physics involved in your simulator, but the aileron model is probably set up with less dihedral which could cause the turn in the wrong direction when using rudder only.

The real question is why are you using rudder only to turn a model with ailerons. Use the ailerons, with or without using the rudder. The rudder is used in turns to prevent adverse yaw (turns in the wrong direction) and to coordinate the turn. Airplanes turn better with the use of rudder and ailerons.

It is good that you are practicing on a simulator. You will most likely save your airplane.

Go to the beginners area in WattFlyer and read the sticky threads posted there. Ask lots of questions before you spend your hard earned cash.

When you do fly, DON'T FLY IN WIND, at least not until you are an accomplished pilot. You need to know that your control inputs are moving the airplane, not the wind.

Hope this is helpful.

[gsk11740]

Hi Charlie.

I was curious about this myself not too long ago and decided to test it. My Mini Pulse has a bunch of dihedral in the wing and I have flown it around on just rudder and elevator and did did Ok, not great, but Ok. If I had lost aileron control for whatever reason, I could have flown it around and landed it it in one piece. Of course, it flew much better when I used the ailerons. I've tried the same thing with a plane that had no dihedral and it didn't work at all well.

As for the simulator teaching bad habits, I know I picked up a few that I had to unlearn quickly. When you have a reset button, there is a tendency to get reckless and do things on a simulator that you wouldn't do in real life, unless you like to destroy planes and your bank account. I quit using the sim myself but it was good for initial training.

[slipstick]

Two planes are identical except one has ailerons, the other doesn't. Should they behave the same when rudder-only is applied?
If they are genuinely identical except for the ailerons they will behave in exactly the same way when rudder is applied.

But that would be very unusual as the others have already said. The 3-channel (no aileron) version will almost certainly have more dihedral than the 4-channel version and that's what makes the difference.

Steve

[jcerne]

I'm also interested in the rudder-roll coupling found on a number of 4-channel airplanes in Clearview. Please check out the posts #4 and on in thread

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671830&goto=newpost

[charlie3]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm trying not to let the simulator make me over confident. I'll keep flying it because I like simulators and I'll need the practice to stay proficient through the year.

One reason I asked about ailerons is to consider a first plane that can can be setup for 3 or 4 channels. That idea is abandoned. The first plane will be a three channel, almost ready to fly and good for landing on short or long grass.

(I notice as my skills improve on the simulator my prospective flying fields on the farm are looking bigger and bigger.)

Right now the best first plane I know about is something in this configuration. I feel confident flying the Clearview version of this plane. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/291/291233/pages/789155/THawk.jpg
I may get an Easystar but that goes over my $100 first plane budget.

The plane I wish was available is an electric powered "Lazybee" made of foam. I'd go over my budget for that if it flew like the one in the simulator and on youtube. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/291/291233/pages/835834/LazyBee.jpg

Is there some aerodyamic problem with the Lazybee style of plane that keeps it from being more popular?

Thanks again.
Charlie

[Rabbitcreekok]

The T-Hawk you referred to is a very good plane to learn on with the long wing. It also comes with a transmitter.

For your $100 budget, you won't get much to work with. I would suggest saving up to the $200 level and that opens up to several very good trainers. You will most likely waste the $100 because always remember, you get what you pay for.

The $100 planes are toys, not real RC models.

Just my opinion.

[charlie3]

I'm thinking about the get-what-you-pay-for part of things. I don't know how to spend $200 wisely. If you have any conviction about that your opinion is welcome.

Charlie

[SaucerGuy]

I'll give you a good starting point and you can take it from. Start out with something slow, such as the Slow Stick, you'll need a 3 channel radio, receiver, battery pack and charger, and 2 servo's to get airborn. Never fly in any kind of wind until you are fully confident with your flying skills.

You can usually find some good deals, especially with the market being so competitive and many people have 3 channel radios they never use any more so they are willing to sell them cheaply, stay away from ebay, I've been burnt too many times on the gear there.

Your next step should go one of two directions, either upgrade to a 6 channel computer radio, or get into the more advanced high wing trainers, they still will only require a 3 channel radio even if you pick up one designed for four, you can disable the rudder control if it has ailerons and still fly it fine without, and in fact, many of my aileron control planes don't have rudder control built into them since it's not needed.

By that time, you should have a much better grasp as to which direction you want to go. Read these boards, especially the beginner section, there is alot of valuable information out there. You will also find most RTF's do not use mainstream gear so you can't switch it out to other planes, which is why I'm pointing you from the start to the slow stick and seperate radio gear so you can switch it out onto your next plane, this will save you money in the long and short run.