PDA

View Full Version : Gawd I hope this isnt a touchy subject...


Nitro Blast
11-02-2005, 12:20 AM
So I see in a thread the EAM focke wulf 190-d and dig the airplane and the price.
I order the plane, and when the brown Santa deliveres it, open it up and show it to my wife...

http://www.eam.net/Pica/newpag6.jpg

Silence...

She says: "You cant take that to the field, you are going to offend someone"

Um, what? What are you talking about woman?

She points to the tail. "The swastika (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&hs=irk&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=swastika&spell=1), you cant fly that with that on."

I paused and thought about it for the very first time, maybe it is offending.
Here is the photo of the one on the EAM website:
http://www.eam.net/jamara/FW.jpg
Notice the emblem gone? I didnt see it at first.

Now, heres the airplane as it came out of the box:
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/6179/dsc037309qx.jpg
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4504/dsc037292px.jpg
And the box itself.

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/1473/dsc037319mn.jpg

Obviously someone in marketing thought it important enough to not display the Natzi emblem, should I have to worry about the same consideration? (albeit I was completely clueless as to any possible offense)

So, let me ask this, is it better to have the aircraft accurate (I'm just a sport pilot here) or do I remove the potentially ofensive detail?

I'm very sorry if anyone is offended by the images and I am honestly meaning no harm. I'd rather hear the opinions now than actually upset anyone later. I'm hoping for your opinion on this model airplane, not Natzi Germany.

ForestCam
11-02-2005, 12:32 AM
If memory serves it is illegal to display the swastika in Germany. They even went so far as to remove all of them from German release versions of Wolfenstien 3D and Return to Castle Wolfenstien computer games.

The way I see it is if you're going to have any WWII German models, aircraft or otherwise, they're going to have the Swastika on them.

If history or historical objects offend you then you have a real problem.

WWI Ace
11-02-2005, 12:36 AM
I agree. The plane is a piece of history and it doesn't sound like to me that you're trying to make some kind of negative statement. I wouldn't worry about it and everyone else that flies probably won't worry about it either!!!

ForestCam
11-02-2005, 12:45 AM
BTW, take a gander at the first site google brings up when you do a search on "swastika"

http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html


It's kind of like this symbol
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:g2GwZZxIO38J:imagecache2.allposters.c om/images/LPG/50003.jpg
Some people see it as a symbol of their southern heritige and history but some people can only see it as a sign of hate and opression.

Being PC is way over rated.

You can make all of the people happy some of the time, you can make some people happy all of the time or you could just piss everyone off 'cause it's easier.:D

turnwaldw
11-02-2005, 01:07 AM
If my memory serves me right or maybe Im wrong but the swastika was a good luck symbol that some WWI pilots actual put on there planes during the first war. The symbol was just used by hitler and got distorded during the war I may be wrong but I thought I read it somewhere.
No matter what you do somebody will be offended by something if it isnt that its something else.
Just my 2cents
Dave

Twmaster
11-02-2005, 01:33 AM
Methinks too many people are taking political correctness way too far. :eek: The Swastika has been around for millenia. See here for a good history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Even the British Boys Scouts used it. Not to mention the blue swastika on Finnish warplanes.

While I have to agree the Nazis were evil. The swastika is little more than a symbol. At least in my opinion. Geez I hope I have not started a poo storm here myself.

I had a Tamiya Tirpitz model. The included ensign of the German High Seas Fleet was missing it's swastika....

Ugh. PC run amok.

Boomerang
11-02-2005, 07:31 AM
If my memory serves me right or maybe Im wrong but the swastika was a good luck symbol that some WWI pilots actual put on there planes during the first war. Dave

If my memory serves me correctly it was a good luck symbol on allied planes in WWII as well. It meant you were lucky enough to down a German plane & not the other way round!!:D - John.

Rugar
11-02-2005, 08:50 AM
You dont have your Country listed in your profile, so we dont know what is politically correct where you live. It wouldnt matter to me what others thought, and Im sure your RC buddies will know it is there for a scale look. If it were me, I would leave it on there.

Gerald

Nitro Blast
11-02-2005, 03:36 PM
You guys are right in line with my thought processes.... I was more concerned about the scale detail of the aircraft not the 'PC' consideration of the emblem.

I'll share these thoughts with the bosswoman so she doesnt think I'm a callous MF.


Thanks guys!

Rugar
11-02-2005, 03:46 PM
I'll share these thoughts with the bosswoman so she doesnt think I'm a callous MF.


Thanks guys!

Oh great! Not only will she think you are, but all of us as well :eek:! At least we dont have to answer to her ;). Good luck! :D

scalercflyer
11-03-2005, 02:37 AM
It's possible that someone, somewhere will be offended by the swastika symbol. That is unforunate but understandable. :( It was originally an Indian good luck symbol that was displayed in the OPPOSITE direction of the version used by the Germans. We modelers build airplanes that are historically correct because we want to be accurate. I have never seen this symbol displayed at anytime to intentionally offend anyone. I say go for it. Martin

FinnFlyer
11-03-2005, 06:25 PM
The ancient good luck symbol, used by people all over the world, wasn't only displayed in the opposite direction. The Finnish Air Force used it from 1916-1945, flagged to the right. They called it the Hakaristi. Here are some examples of swastikas used in history, with nothing to do with the Nazis, flagged the same way they did.

qban_flyer
11-03-2005, 11:15 PM
Methinks too many people are taking political correctness way too far. :eek: The Swastika has been around for millenia. See here for a good history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Even the British Boys Scouts used it. Not to mention the blue swastika on Finnish warplanes.

While I have to agree the Nazis were evil. The swastika is little more than a symbol. At least in my opinion. Geez I hope I have not started a poo storm here myself.

I had a Tamiya Tirpitz model. The included ensign of the German High Seas Fleet was missing it's swastika....

Ugh. PC run amok.

Guys and Gals,

I agree with twmaster. Besides, this is a scale model, and the original ones carried the Swastika, so the model must carry it too.

Scale like aricraft should look similar to the original version, markings and all.

qban_flyer
11-03-2005, 11:23 PM
The ancient good luck symbol, used by people all over the world, wasn't only displayed in the opposite direction. The Finnish Air Force used it from 1916-1945, flagged to the right. They called it the Hakaristi. Here are some examples of swastikas used in history, with nothing to do with the Nazis, flagged the same way they did.

Thanks for the examples posted. It shows the swastika for what it has been through the ages, an iternationally used symbol used by many.

qban_flyer
11-03-2005, 11:30 PM
So, let me ask this, is it better to have the aircraft accurate (I'm just a sport pilot here) or do I remove the potentially ofensive detail?



I'd go for accuracy. Makes no difference if you are a scale or a sport pilot. This is a hobby where we strive to make "most" of our models look like the real thing.

We always run the risk of offending someone, sometime with the looks or the way we decorate and or present our planes.

Boomerang
11-04-2005, 08:17 AM
Checked out a little twin ducted fan ME 262 in the local today, no swastikas! Sounds like a conspiricy! John.

n001pa
11-04-2005, 10:18 PM
I agree with everyone else here. Maybe print some of the images here and take them with you when you fly. If someone is offended then you can show them what the swastika was about before Hitler corrupted it.

watt_the?!
11-04-2005, 10:28 PM
i think it is offensive myself. hitler did corrupt it, and it was used before, but it had become a symbol of the holocaust and many who are still around may remember this first or second hand...it can/may evoke memories that peeps have difficulty dealing with...like helicopter sounds for vietnam vets and so on...surely another scheme can be found that is scale?

just my opinion guys.

Tim

yorcram
11-05-2005, 01:11 PM
I debated about putting the swastika on my 190 since I was going to by flying it in parks. I was not sure if people would think it was a political statement or not. I decided to add it since german ww2 a/c had them. If anyone comments, my reply will be ' it is a model of a plane and that is what it looked like, it means nothing more'.

Cheers,

Rugar
11-05-2005, 01:27 PM
I debated about putting the swastika on my 190 since I was going to by flying it in parks. I was not sure if people would think it was a political statement or not. I decided to add it since german ww2 a/c had them. If anyone comments, my reply will be ' it is a model of a plane and that is what it looked like, it means nothing more'.

Cheers,

I LOVE that SIG! I about fell off my chair when I read it. :D

LuckyArmpit
11-05-2005, 02:46 PM
Hmmm....last I heard in this country, freedom of speech and freedom of expression still existed. If I have a model of any WW II german aircraft that has the swastika on it and you don't like it, you can go fly somewheres else. Its only a stinkin model!!!

Dave...

scalercflyer
11-05-2005, 06:31 PM
I agree with Lucky! It's a MODEL! As someone once said: You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time! If you don't like the swastikas on my plane don't be offended. If you don't like what I have to say or what I do, or what I put on my planes, don't be offended. If you don't like America, where freedom of speech and freedom of expression still are practiced, LEAVE!! I won't be offended. Leave us to the pursuit of the hobby that we love so dearly. In the end, if you don't like it, LUMP IT!!! My 2 cents worth.

flypaper 2
11-06-2005, 04:20 AM
I don't mind putting the swastika on my planes either. What it means to me is, we beat what the symbol stands for in ww2

qban_flyer
11-06-2005, 04:56 AM
YUP!

I am not about to begin removing swastikas from my WW-II German warbirds, just as I won't be removing Japanese markings from my WW-II Japanese models, the hammer and sickle or the red star from the Russian ones either.

PC has no place in our hobby when it comes to scale aircraft. I spoke with a very good friend of mine this afternoon. Gary works at the Garber Aircraft Restoration Facility (the Garber Facility is part of the Smithsonian Air and Sapce Museum) in Maryland.

I posed a question to him: Do FW-190s at the Museum in Virginia and elsewhere have the swastika on their fuselages? His answer was rather sobering, he said that it would not be considered a fully restored Museum quality historic aircraft unless all its original markings were on it, sawastika and all! He made reference to Japanese, Korean and Russian aircraft as well.

Moral of the story? If you are working on a scale model, you had better stick to scale detail in every way, so on the FW-190 the swastika must remain. If offended by its markings, then switch to a P-40, P-51 or Spitfire.:o

scalercflyer
11-08-2005, 08:25 AM
AMEN to that qban!! Martin

easytiger
11-10-2005, 04:40 AM
It is illegal to display the swastika in Germany, period. France, too. So many manufacturers just find it easier to leave them out, rather than make a special edition for just a few countries.
Very, very surprised it had swastikas on it, considering it was sold by a German company.
Zero tolerance on that in germany.
What did you pay for that kit?
PS a friend of mine covered up the swastikas on his WRAM-show winning ME110 in his apartment. Frankly, it's not worth offending someone, a Holocaust survivor is not interested in your explanation about Luftwaffe history...it's JUST OFFENSIVE.
And you can talk forever about how American Indians used it as a good luck charm, well...NOW IT MEANS NAZI. Symbols and words change. Don't debate it, it is what it is. It's no longer something from Dutch Folk Art, it's the symbol of the Nazis, and that's that.

watt_the?!
11-10-2005, 05:17 AM
well i never thought id see the day...me and ET agree...

as they say never speak about religion and politics, of which, this is a bit of both for some....

but horses for courses as they say...ths forum is for opinion whcih is whya its so great.

zappedalaskan
11-10-2005, 05:54 AM
I am not one to debate a lot, but I have to agree with qban's post. Any scale plane is going to have the proper historical markings. Whatever country it may be. Germany, Japan, korea, American ect.. Does a Pearl Harbor survivor get upset at an rc zero? I know one that flies a zero. I also know a Japanese guy that flies a B-25 with full markings. It is not meant offensively and anyone at a scale fun fly or even the local field knows scale military aircraft are going to be marked accordingly. Keeping in mind the legality in some countries respectfully.
Now if the guy flying the aircraft has a swastika tattooed on his arm then we have a problem.. This is just my opinion.
Take care all,
Jay

watt_the?!
11-10-2005, 06:05 AM
Now if the guy flying the aircraft has a swastika tattooed on his arm then we have a problem.. This is just my opinion.
Take care all,
Jay

good points..

qban_flyer
11-10-2005, 10:39 AM
I am not one to debate a lot, but I have to agree with qban's post. Any scale plane is going to have the proper historical markings. Whatever country it may be. Germany, Japan, korea, American ect.. Does a Pearl Harbor survivor get upset at an rc zero? I know one that flies a zero. I also know a Japanese guy that flies a B-25 with full markings. It is not meant offensively and anyone at a scale fun fly or even the local field knows scale military aircraft are going to be marked accordingly. Keeping in mind the legality in some countries respectfully.
Now if the guy flying the aircraft has a swastika tattooed on his arm then we have a problem.. This is just my opinion.
Take care all,
Jay

Thanks Jay,

To begin with I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I don't want anyone running up to higher authorities to complain about this being a political statement, for what follows is NOT a political statetment in any way, shape or form. OK?

Political Correctness has no place when it comes to historical events and or devices. Are we going to clean up (doctor) old newsreels from WW-II to remove the symbols we fought against just because "they may offend" some when they see them?

Gimme a break, please.

Just as Gary at the Garber Restoration Facility told me, in order to be a fully restored and museum quality aircraft, all its markings have got to be in place, period. Are we going to remove the swastikas from US aircraft painted on for each "kill" they accomplished too? A swastika is a swastika, make no mistake about it, and if it should be "washed" off from German aircraft, the same should be done with US aircraft. Let's not be discriminatory here, shall we?

Where is this P.C. going to end?
I visited the WW-II monument here in Washington, DC three months ago. It irked me to no end that FDR's last words from his address to Congress after the attack on Pearl are nowhere to be found on the text carved on the monument. Why? Because they were of a religious nature and they are not supposed to be displayed on Federal land! I have that address to Congres on an old 78 RPM recording and I know full well how it ends, not the way they have carved it on stone.

Well then, why don't we go up to Arlington National Cemetery and begin removing the crosses found there. It's Federal land, you know? What about those found in the rest of Federally owned cemeteries all over the nation? What are we going to replace them with?

Regarding people who tatoo things on their bodies. It's no business of mine what they do to themselves; after all it is their bodies, not mine. If I don't like what I see, I don't have to look at it. It is that simple.

Don't like to look at Swastikas, Hammer & Sickles or the Rising Sun on scale aircraft? Then don't go to scale events. Don't want to be offended by what people put on their bodies? Then you had better stay indoors, for I am sure we are going to encounter something offensive to us every time we step outdoors. I can't stand watching a human being wearing a nose ring, it's offensive to me. Do I have a right to go and complain to them? Absolutely NOT.

Same with Scale aircraft. To be faithful to the original they have got to have all their original markings on them, otherwise Scale Judges must demerit them for being inaccurate replicas of the model the "pretend" to portray.

tashley
11-10-2005, 12:27 PM
Silly nonsense, if you look hard enough you can come up with symbols that could offend almost anyone and in any time period. If swistakas make a model historically correct then they should be displayed.

easytiger
11-10-2005, 02:04 PM
You can talk all you want about the injustice of it all, but the fact still remains this:
1. You may not display the swastika on your models in Germany or France.
You will be arrested. You can argue your point all you want with the German Authorities, you will still be arrested.
In the words of the immortal Van Morrison: "It ain't WHY, it just IS."
2. If you display a swastika on your model, you run the risk of offending someone in a major way. Depends where you are and who sees it, but that's the risk you take. Your explanation about historical accuracy may not wash. My friend's ME110 offended a client of his when he saw it...worth it? Heck, no! I'll take the money from the client, rather than win some arcane point about freedom of expression.
3. You are not a museum.
4. You cannot compare Pearl Harbor, or ANY other event, to the Holocaust. You can blah blah blah about how the Bataan Death March was just as bad, or how Stalin killed more people, but the fact remains that the Holocaust is treated as something seperate entirely. Right or wrong, that's just how it is.
5. I see a swastika on a model, it means nothing to me. Could not care less. Just be aware that others may not see it the same way, and not one word of your explanation will mean a thing. And for God's sake, don't even TRY these kind of arguments with a Holocaust survivor. Trust me on that.

Rugar
11-10-2005, 02:30 PM
Nice post Qban! :D

tashley
11-10-2005, 03:16 PM
Nice post Qban! :D

Amen, er, I mean, I agree.:D

quando
11-10-2005, 05:01 PM
qban flyer is exactly right. We are all offened in a large or small way evedry day. If something offends you in a large way, then make it a point to avoid that situation! Otherwise, "GET OVER IT"!!!!! MOVE ON! LIVE YOUR LIFE AND TRY TO BE HAPPY! GO FLYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ray

easytiger
11-10-2005, 05:08 PM
Super. But you will still be arrested if you do it in Germany or France.
And you will still have a hard time telling a Holocaust Survivor to "get over it."
I'm trying to tell you something.
This is a symbol that transcends. It's DIFFERENT from any others. That's how it is.
FORGET about the logic of it all, forget about "political correctness", just UNDERSTAND that it is beyond offensive to some people, and that not a damn thing you can say will change that. Live with that, and if you need to cover up the tail of a model airplane to accomodate those people, it's not that much to ask.

Rugar
11-10-2005, 05:30 PM
Super. But you will still be arrested if you do it in Germany or France.
And you will still have a hard time telling a Holocaust Survivor to "get over it."
I'm trying to tell you something.
This is a symbol that transcends. It's DIFFERENT from any others. That's how it is.
FORGET about the logic of it all, forget about "political correctness", just UNDERSTAND that it is beyond offensive to some people, and that not a damn thing you can say will change that. Live with that, and if you need to cover up the tail of a model airplane to accomodate those people, it's not that much to ask.

But I don't live in Germany or France. I live in the USA! If someone has a problem with a emblem on one of MY "SCALE" aircraft, maybe they should look the other way and live with it. Its not to much to ask. I don't need to cover up the tail on MY model to accommodate anyone! Why you ask? Because my fellow Countryman both past and present either risked or gave their lives for my right to do so.

FinnFlyer
11-10-2005, 05:34 PM
[quote=easytiger;21831]Super. But you will still be arrested if you do it in Germany or France.[quote]

I am glad I do not live there.:)

I agree, to a holocaust survivor such a symbol probably would get under their skin.

I do beleive we should not forget the horrors of the Third Reich. These holocaust survivors aren't getting any younger, and maybe one day we can go about our historical ventures and not worry about offense. But for now I think everyone should watch their P's and Q's when in public.

[quote]and if you need to cover up the tail of a model airplane to accomodate those people, it's not that much to ask.[quote]

I agree.:D

easytiger
11-10-2005, 05:43 PM
Rugar, life has certain comprimises. I don't think this one is too much to ask.
I have the right to swear as loudly as I want in a crowd full of five year old children. It's my "right". But it's not too much to ask for me to refrain from doing so, so that's what I do.
The Holocaust survivors are dying out as we speak, and with that, things will change somewhat.
My wife works with Holocaust Survivors every day. It's very tough sometimes.
I interviewed a total of 52 of them for the Steven Speilberg Shoah Project. Very simply, you sit there for four or more hours and hear their stories while videotaping them. Do 52 of them, and you will understand why, for me, it's not too much to ask to cover up a swastika on the tail of a model airplane, that the rather arcane point of freedom of speech, to me, does not outweigh the potential to seriously offend someone.
Ever seen someone with a concentration camp tattoo on their arm? Live? Closeup? Heard what they have to say? It will make you realize what the swastika really means to some people.

quando
11-10-2005, 06:05 PM
easytiger, I don't care about France or germany!! The vast majority of the people in both these countries HATE America!! Just understand, there is no way you can tell me, that I am less offended, by something, than a holocaust survivor is by the swastika! My intent, is not to say something that will change the extent to which holocaust survivors are offended by a swastika. My heart goes out to them, all. The fact is, all of us must learn to deal with that which offends us and if we can't deal with something, then avoid it! Yes, it is too much to ask!