Heres An Interesting Question

[GreenAce92]

I was watching Dogfights and it was about the Foker Triwingers and they were going against british planes. They were mentioning how the Foker was so manueverable because it had so much lift. But in the show the lone Foker would do flatspins while the others couldnt. So why is it that lift makes a plane more manueverable? Is that because they wouldnt stall out in tight turns?

Thanks

[HX3D014]

I was watching Dogfights and it was about the Foker Triwingers and they were going against british planes. They were mentioning how the Foker was so manueverable because it had so much lift. But in the show the lone Foker would do flatspins while the others couldnt. So why is it that lift makes a plane more manueverable? Is that because they wouldnt stall out in tight turns?

Thanks
That's a very good start to understanding it.
Other things are the control surfaces.
Cantilevered elevator and full fly cantilevered rudde.

Flat spins could be done in just about any plane. but the ability to do one with full control is a matter of rudder authority. in a flat spin, your wings are stalled. to regain control you need to dive in once you have stopped the spin with rudder. the dive or Fall in, is to reduce the AoA and regain Lift. being able to do so very easily was its advantage.

The tribute was the Tail. full fly rudder. very easy to stop the spin.
Elevator was also attributed to its maneuverability, but I cant see it being overly powerful. Probably because of the Low Chord length of each wing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_Dr.I

[GreenAce92]

So Cantilevered tail and rudders. Hmm Yeah that would explain it all then do you think it would be possible to flat spin and go the other way? In that show the lone Foker would do flat spins but he could only do the flat spin and keep in it for 2secs.

[HX3D014]

check the wiki site. they say that it was very good at turning in one direction. and OK in the other.

if it was for two seconds. it may be a combination Gyro move and just an exceptional turn around.

How many spins did it show ?

ailerons are not effective in a flat spin. You are stalled.

here is a Quote from wiki
Compared to the Albatros and Pfalz fighters it replaced, the Dr.I offered remarkable maneuverability and initial rate of climb rate. The ailerons were light but not very effective. The rudder and elevator controls were light and powerful. Rapid turns, especially to the right, were facilitated by the triplane's marked directional instability. Vizefeldwebel Franz Hemer of Jasta 6 said, "The triplane was my favorite fighting machine because it had such wonderful flying qualities. I could let myself stunt — looping and rolling — and could avoid an enemy by diving with perfect safety. The triplane had to be given up because although it was very maneuverable, it was no longer fast enough."

[GreenAce92]

The triplane did two or three but he would do them when ever someone did a diving attack run on his 6. Then he would pull a left flat spin and open a couple of bursts on the british.

[pd1]

Hi GreenAce92,

A couple of things I might be able to clarify.
The maneuverability aspect of the DR1, you are mixing two different concepts.

In combat the point is to put bullets into your opponent while keeping him from doing the same to you.

If you turn, then the opponent must lead his shot. He has to shoot where you are going to be, not where you are.

He has to be able to turn tighter than you to accomplish this.
To turn tighter, more wing area was needed.
In an effort to increase wing area, and not span, a third wing was tried.

It was hoped the added wing area would give a tighter turn, and the short span would be easier to strengthen.

Spins, The tri plane could not spin better than biplanes. Both could spin.
Some models better than others.

The DR1 had a rotary engine, The crankshaft was fixed to the fuselage and the crankcase and cylinders would revolve around the crank.
This created a large gyroscopic effect.
The plane would turn with the gyro much faster than against it.

A skilled pilot could use this to turn very quickly.
Turning faster than your opponent was a good thing.

Spins, when an airplane spins, the wings are stalled and the airplane rotates around an vertical axis that passes through the fuselage.
The nose is down 10 degrees or more.

In a downward spiral the airplane revolves around the axis that is offset from the fuselage.

Most airplanes both then and now will recover from a normal upright spin.

A true flat spin is when during a normal spin the nose rises nearly to level attitude.
It is characterized by the rate of revolutions increasing and the vertical speed decreasing.

Most airplanes, both then and now will not get out of a flat spin.
Highly specialized aerobatic airplanes do flat spins a lot, but every once in a while even they don't get out of them.

I think the History channel gets thing almost correct, I think their terminology of "flat spin" is incorrect in this context.

But the point is the tri planes increased lift and maneuverability allowed it to turn faster than its contemporary opponent.

The spin on the other hand was mostly the pilots skill and experience.

Paul

[GreenAce92]

Thanks. I did notice the rotary engine spun with the prop. Im not sure if that is true or not thats what they had on the history channel. I did see a show where they said the Spitfire is more manueverable than the Me109 because of its greater wing area. So i see how flatspins work and how the Foker could pull it off. But if you did get into a flat spin how would you get out of it? Would you just put hard rudder opposite of your spin and nose down to gain control again?

[pd1]

HX3DO14 Gave a good desription of how to exit a spin.
Stop rotation, then get flying speed.

My point is the spins shown on the History channel are not "flat"spins.
Flat spin is not the correct term.

I don't think any WW1 airplane was capable of getting out of a flat spin.

Paul

[fr4nk1yn]

I saw that yesterday and read about the dogfight a few months ago.
Werner Voss was one hell of a pilot by all accounts.

I've seen "DogFights" call three different maneuvers an Immelman.
I believe what they're calling a "flat spin" is this case is a "slip turn".

[GreenAce92]

Yeah Slip Turn sounbds like a term they would use. I like cool moves like that like the move where the plane literally drifts in the air by applying full rudder one direction and adding full elevators to the opposite direction. I just want to see how the moves are done and how it is possible to do that move.

[HX3D014]

pd1;
Most airplanes both then and now will recover from a normal upright spin.

A true flat spin is when during a normal spin the nose rises nearly to level attitude.
It is characterized by the rate of revolutions increasing and the vertical speed decreasing.

Most airplanes, both then and now will not get out of a flat spin.
Highly specialized aerobatic airplanes do flat spins a lot, but every once in a while even they don't get out of them.
I didn't want to comment on if it was a Spiral dive or a flat spin. I was unsure of the move GreenAce92 was talking about. and did not even know of the Flat spin facts u mention about No recovery able. by most airplanes.

I thought all pilots were put in one as training (Must be a near experience so as to recognize the onset and what to do to stop a full blown flat spin)

Speaking from an RC point of view. we need only go with it to get out ?
what is the way out for a real one..

I'm going to check my Advanced aerobatic book now :)
Only on page 90 of the Basic one. :)~

Strange the wiki referenced turning right was good. but the Movie showed left ? what's happening there.
I would have thought left with P-Factor and Slipstream (Spiral flow) and Gyro kick. (Clockwise rotation Prop?) ?

[HX3D014]

OK. just checked a flat spin recovery. and it is not hard. (G's are)
Idol back let go of the stick and kick the rudder opposite and hope you haven’t gone to far into it.
Hmm going to not do that (Not that I could ever afford to get that advanced).

To me it sounds like it is Autorotation? (Like a Helicopter)

They do say in the Advance Aerobatic book that each aircraft is different and you should always check the Owners manual of that Aircraft.

Another Aerodynamics book I am just starting is saying just as PD1 was saying about recovery.
it is not assured in some aircraft.

PD1. you sound like a smart person. I will trust what you say a little more. but as always. I like to get a second opinion (Books or other Prune methods). Thanks for seconding mine and for checking my error (Politely ;) )

[pd1]

HX3DO14, My aim was not to correct you. Your post was perfectly valid.
My point was that the History channel sometimes gets things wrong.

With editing, re writing, post production, etc. it's amazing they get as many things right as they do.
Most of the people doing those tasks are not interested in aviation.

GreenAce referred to the sharp turn as a flat spin, I believe he got this from the telly. I just wanted to clarify what a flat spin truly was.


This is the INTERNET, it's always a good idea to verify information and confirm with another source.

If I came across like I was correcting you I apologize, that wasn't my intent.

Paul

[HX3D014]

HX3DO14, My aim was not to correct you. Your post was perfectly valid.
My point was that the History channel sometimes gets things wrong.

With editing, re writing, post production, etc. it's amazing they get as many things right as they do.
Most of the people doing those tasks are not interested in aviation.

GreenAce referred to the sharp turn as a flat spin, I believe he got this from the telly. I just wanted to clarify what a flat spin truly was.


This is the INTERNET, it's always a good idea to verify information and confirm with another source.

If I came across like I was correcting you I apologize, that wasn't my intent.

Paul
No need to apologize.
if I was wrong I was Wrong.

To set it straight. I was not very clear in post #2 about the Flat spin. and if you read it from a complete novice eye. (IE not some one who know what I am talking about and knows what I mean) you can see that this paragraph.
Flat spins could be done in just about any plane. but the ability to do one with full control is a matter of rudder authority. in a flat spin, your wings are stalled. to regain control you need to dive in once you have stopped the spin with rudder. the dive or Fall in, is to reduce the AoA and regain Lift. being able to do so very easily was its advantage.would lead you to believe that the Focker was doing flat spins and could get out of them. Though I did not directly say it. I did not clarify the point that it is a dangerous maneuver for the best of both pilot and Airplane. let alone an Antique.

I may not have said it, But I was thinking it when I wrote it.
it is an honest thanks to you. It made me look and consequently I learnt something specific :)

So .... No worries.
Being corrective is ok when you do it either subtly or politely or in a non offensive way. (Or in your case, Inadvertently) :)

Hell. I would even rather be corrected and called a dumb ass or something else offensive than being left to believe I was right (when I was incorrect or wrong or slightly off track)
this way I would have still learnt something.

I am giving your post a THANKS

[Sparky Paul]

Slowly feeding in aileron while spinning can flatten it out.

[javaman1]

the move your talking about ga is called a skid. i've heard that its caused when the ailerons cause the plane to roll and lift becomes in both the x and z axes (where x is horizontal and z is vertical measurement). since the plane is not perfectly level, theres a slipping effect on the plane where it slides towards whichever wing is down. the rudder is used to combat the slippage effect and keep the plane at about 0 degrees on the attitude meter. (if you have a 4 channel plane w/ ailerons, you can see it skid.)

[fr4nk1yn]

The plane at least according to the show and from what I've read it's flat not a roll.
A flat turn is easy but not sharp at all.

[javaman1]

just so theres no confusion, i was talking about the second move that ga was describing, not the flat spin