Single Airelon...........

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

I was thinking of installing a single aileron on my Wally Glider build. Anyone have any experience with this approach?

Should I make the single aileron bigger to compensate?



Thank you in advance to any advice.

[Murocflyer]

Single aileron?? Sounds like a speed brake. What would be the reason for a single aileron? And would it really be an aileron?

Thanks,

Frank

[Insomniac]

I don't think a single aileron would work that well. The wing with the aileron would get a lot of extra drag when you use the aileron, making the plane yaw. Still an interesting concept though.

[smokejohnson]

I've seen it. I will have to search to find it again but there are guys out there that only put a single aileron on 1 side of the wing. I thought it looked funny but supposedly the planes fly just fine.

[smokejohnson]

I found one. Look at the Carpetbagger. (http://www.crowriverrc.com/My_Homepage_Files/Page1.html)

I will try to find the article I read about using a single aileron when I get off work.

[pd1]

Smoke is correct. Single ailerons were quite popular for racing all the way back to the early 60's.

The only problem I see is with the gliders flat bottomed airfoil, there might be some adverse yaw to cause problems when the aileron is lowered.

The more throw you have in the aileron, the more drag the aileron creates.
The more the plane will yaw when the aileron is deflected.

A larger aileron would require less throw, and less yaw.

It does make for an interesting experiment.

Paul

[Murocflyer]

It does make for an interesting experiment.

That it would for sure.

I wonder what the benefits would be to a single aileron? (I use that term lightly as I can't quite grasp the fact that a large movable surface on one wing would be called an aileron) And why if it works good/well, doesn't more airplanes have them?

Signed,

Very intrigued in VA

[smokejohnson]

That it would for sure.

I wonder what the benefits would be to a single aileron? (I use that term lightly as I can't quite grasp the fact that a large movable surface on one wing would be called an aileron) And why if it works good/well, doesn't more airplanes have them?

Signed,

Very intrigued in VA



Because it just don't look right ;):D.

[Gnascher]

Well a pylon racer only has to turn well one direction. As long as it's the inside wing that has the aileron, you don't need to worry about adverse yaw.

[Murocflyer]

So they are only good for one thing? Left or right turns? Like a NASCAR car?

I agree, it is not very attractive.

Frank

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

I found one. Look at the Carpetbagger. (http://www.crowriverrc.com/My_Homepage_Files/Page1.html)

I will try to find the article I read about using a single aileron when I get off work.



I find it even more interesting that the aileron is directly mounted to the servo. I was looking to mount mine directly late last night.




Thank you for the responses. I have been thinking of the "single aileron" for a couple of reasons.

One is that there are less parts & weight involved with a single aileron. Another reason is just to be different, it would be a nice conversation piece. I wasn't prepared for there being a negative aspect to this.

Do we all agree that it should work though?

Anyone have an idea if I should make it larger than normal size?

What is more effective, cutting the aileron out of the existing wing or adding it to the trailing edge?

[smokejohnson]

Thank you for the responses. I have been thinking of the "single aileron" for a couple of reasons.

One is that there are less parts & weight involved with a single aileron. Another reason is just to be different, it would be a nice conversation piece. I wasn't prepared for there being a negative aspect to this.

Do we all agree that it should work though?

Anyone have an idea if I should make it larger than normal size?

What is more effective, cutting the aileron out of the existing wing or adding it to the trailing edge?


Yes I think it will work.

I would keep it normal size.

I would keep my wing chord the same on both sides.

But honestly I have never tried it so I really don't know. I am sure the article I read showed sport planes with a single aileron indicating that they turned left and right.

I'm tempted to throw a foamie together and try it.

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

Yes I think it will work.

I would keep it normal size.

I would keep my wing chord the same on both sides.

But honestly I have never tried it so I really don't know. I am sure the article I read showed sport planes with a single aileron indicating that they turned left and right.

I'm tempted to throw a foamie together and try it.




Ok kool, so the worst that will happen is to add a matching aileron to my "single".



I also found this link, in a related forum:

http://www.qnet.com/~skif/singleailerons.html

[Frank Voikel]

I'll give you a link (http://www.qnet.com/~skif/singleailerons.html) to a guy that uses singles a lot. The main problem with single aileron setups: rolls aren't axial (meaning that when you roll the plane over, it'll do more of a spiral than a barrel roll).

[pd1]

That it would for sure.

I wonder what the benefits would be to a single aileron? (I use that term lightly as I can't quite grasp the fact that a large movable surface on one wing would be called an aileron) And why if it works good/well, doesn't more airplanes have them?

Signed,

Very intrigued in VA


Frank, ask Mr. Peabody to set the controls of the Wayback machine to 1962.

No home computers, very little wind tunnel data for home use.
Now enter a speed competition that everyone else has an equal chance of winning.

Need an edge?
engine: shave cylinder, increase compression, modify porting to change timing.

Play with different prop combinations. That's it.

OOPs, eveyone else did that too.

Airframe, best finish. most streamline design possible.
Again everyone else is doing that as well.

What about reducing drag of one control horn, one push rod one exit guide, and not have high pressure air mixing with low pressure air on one wing.

This was also before anyone thought of sealing the aileron gap with tape.

Sound like an edge?

When the planes were tested, the individual components weren't tested first.
Often you had no idea why this plane was actually faster than your last design. Or slower.

It might have been the single aileron, might not.

The single aileron had a psychological effect as well.
If your opponent had the single aileron and you didn't you would wonder what he "Knew".

Sometimes that was enough to win a race.

I've only had two planes with a single aileron, so I'm no expert. The plane turned fine. My planes had semi-symmetrical airfoils so I can only speak to that.

Flat bottom, as the glider is, would be a nice experiment.

Just guessing, I'd go for a larger ,IE. wider aileron. I'd also make it a strip aileron, easier to adjust size.

Paul

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

Just guessing, I'd go for a larger ,IE. wider aileron. I'd also make it a strip aileron, easier to adjust size.


Thank you for your input Paul, your ideas are appreciated. I like the different theories that come up with this project.

I did fly The Single today, turning was not an issue.

The setup I used is a Tower Pro 2409-18 with a GWS 9x5 prop with a Polyquest 3s1800 20c LiPo. This seemed to not be enough either prop or power to do anything but fly level.

The Tower Pro site states a 8x4 or 8x6 prop is the correct prop for this motor. I figured I could use the 9x5, with some throttle management, safely. My Single Glider's AUW is 18oz with the COG coming in @ around 3" from the leading edge.

Does anyone have any idea of why this Wally Glider is having a tough time with this brushless set up?

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

Ok the 8x4 prop performed a little better, but the plane feels underpowered still. I understand the difference between asking too much from the motor & being truly under-powered.

At this point I'm counter sinking all the electronics into the foam in an attempt to streamline the fuselage.

I will post some pix a.s.a.p. to give people a better idea of how this project is shaping up.

Thank you for all your help so far!

[smokejohnson]

I wonder if it could be nose heavy? A nose heavy plane can feel under powered.

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

I wonder if it could be nose heavy? A nose heavy plane can feel under powered.


Hmmmmmm...........I am checking my COG @ 2.5-3" from the leading edge. I tend to fly my planes leaning more towards the nose rather than the tail. My experiences with tail heavy planes aren't good ones....lol....

Do you know how my elevator should be positioned?
This glider kit comes with an adjustable elevator.

Do you think I should be able to fly this type of glider with this TP
2409-18 with a GWS 8x4 prop?

[smokejohnson]

I use Jeff's info at HeadsUpRC (http://cgi.ebay.com/2409-18T-Outrunner-Brushless-Electric-Motor_W0QQitemZ220152503528QQihZ012QQcategoryZ3405 6QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem) for my TowerPro motors. It always works for me. He shows that motor making around 24oz of thrust with a 9" prop. That should be more than enough to fly an 18oz plane. I'm not sure what plane you have?

[smokejohnson]

Here is another handy little chart to have with these motors.

[SpotTheCat]

If you can, move your CG 15% of the mean chord forward of the aerodynamic center of the plane. It will still be stable and will maintain good handling qualities.

elevator trim depends on desired flight speed.

edit: 2.5-3" forward of the leading edge! if it is a main wing + fuselage + tail type of airplane it is unlikely you would ever want the CG forward of the leading edge.

It does sound like it is nose heavy.

You do not want your CG behind the aerodynamic center, or it will be very hard to fly (though possible)

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

I use Jeff's info at HeadsUpRC (http://cgi.ebay.com/2409-18T-Outrunner-Brushless-Electric-Motor_W0QQitemZ220152503528QQihZ012QQcategoryZ3405 6QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem) for my TowerPro motors. It always works for me. He shows that motor making around 24oz of thrust with a 9" prop. That should be more than enough to fly an 18oz plane. I'm not sure what plane you have?


According to that site, I was using too small a prop. The TP site states the max being a 8x4-8x6" prop.. Acouple more inches of prop should fly my Single Aileron Wally Glider.

I will have some pix and another flight report tomorrow.........Thanks for the link!!

[smokejohnson]

If you can find some tall grass try a glide test. Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

edit: 2.5-3" forward of the leading edge! if it is a main wing + fuselage + tail type of airplane it is unlikely you would ever want the CG forward of the leading edge.



No no, I would never have the COG in front of the leading edge.....when I stated "from the leading edge" I assumed we all knew that I was referring to behind the edge. I apologize for the miscommunication.

[pd1]

I did a thread on converting a chuck glider to RC.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=206422&postcount=11

This is a link to the page showing my CG and horizontal tail alignment.

If the plane is very slow I have to ask, Did you round off the leading edges of the control surfaces?

I know it sounds like a silly question, but blunt edges can have a dramatic effect on flight speed.

I also found that this thing flies very well while slow.
I don't think it will fly real fast either, too big and too much drag.

CG 2 inches back from the leading edge is where I set mine. My plane flies OK with that CG.

Paul

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

Thanks Paul,


Your thread was actually the one that got my going on this project!

Yes I did sand the LE on the wings, but not the tail feathers. I think I'm fairly close to where I need to be with this plane. TP's site has listed that I should be using an 8x4-8x6 prop, which is what I did. Once I looked at the eBay link last night, I knew I could use more prop in the 2409. I installed a 10x47 SF prop and think it should provide the thrust needed.

I will take some pix to post while flying today. Thanks for all your help!

[pd1]

Hand-Eye-Guy, Where are you flying?

Looking forward to your pictures.

Paul

[SaucerGuy]

With a past foamie chuck glider conversion, upon it's maiden one of the aileron push rods came loose so I was flying it with only one aileron while the other was flapping around. It was a handful, but it flew successfully. Now, being a contributor to the RCU free foam flyer thread which is based upon this plane http://www.qnet.com/~skif/plane.html (http://www.qnet.com/%7Eskif/plane.html) I've read alot of input as to how the single aileron set up works and have mixed feelings on it. I'd say, optimumly you want two for greater control and symmetry, there is a little drawback to only having one from the flight reports, but not much, you just lose a little response in the process and it's a little trickier to trim, nothing noticable by any means unless you are working in giant scale on a slow flyer.

As pd1 said, it's not new ground at all, it's amazing how some people will flat out say it won't work at all though.

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

Hand-Eye-Guy, Where are you flying?

Looking forward to your pictures.

Paul


Hi Paul,

I'm flying on private property located in Easton, just south of Boston. It's a fairly large area with some great views, you're more than welcome to come get it out sometime. I will try to upload some pix tomorrow.

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

With a past foamie chuck glider conversion, upon it's maiden one of the aileron push rods came loose so I was flying it with only one aileron while the other was flapping around. It was a handful, but it flew successfully. Now, being a contributor to the RCU free foam flyer thread which is based upon this plane http://www.qnet.com/~skif/plane.html (http://www.qnet.com/%7Eskif/plane.html) I've read alot of input as to how the single aileron set up works and have mixed feelings on it. I'd say, optimumly you want two for greater control and symmetry, there is a little drawback to only having one from the flight reports, but not much, you just lose a little response in the process and it's a little trickier to trim, nothing noticable by any means unless you are working in giant scale on a slow flyer.

As pd1 said, it's not new ground at all, it's amazing how some people will flat out say it won't work at all though.


My initial flights were ok, but not anything like I was shooting for. I'm probably going to cut out another aileron in the hopes of gaining more control.

At this point Im more issues with my brushless & speed control than anything else. I think it will fly decent once I get these minor issues ironed out.


I like the looks of the plane in the link your provided. Maybe I can put it on the list of planes to be built....lol

Thank you for everyones input!

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

I'm trying to upload some pix of my Single Aileron Glider. Let's see if it works.

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

I've added some pix, in the first post. Had to resize them, thanks to Smokie's link, but they had limited sizes to offer.

[smokejohnson]

Looks good Hand Eye. Did you get your power issues worked out?

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

Looks good Hand Eye. Did you get your power issues worked out?


Nope, I did crash my Wing Dragon and ruined that motor or speed control too though! Looks like I need to get some better products or just insulate them better.

[Hand-Eye-Guy]

Looks good Hand Eye. Did you get your power issues worked out?


Yes, I had found a decent brushless ESC (actually "stole" it from my newly crashed Dragon) and installed it in my Single Aileron Glider. The TP 2409 has more than enough thrust now!

Initial launch was a little shakie at first, but flew nicely once trimmed. It does have the usual habit of wanting to climb under power even though I do have down & right thrust in the motor mount. Maybe I need some more?

As far as the single aileron goes, it does work without any major issues. The amount of control could be better, but I can't tell if it is a result of the single aileron or if the size of the control surface isn't sufficient. I will continue to post my mods as they happen.


I would like to thank everyone that has shared their own experience & knowledge, it has been very helpful along the way.