PDA

View Full Version : Rewind a TowerPro??


Gnascher
09-30-2007, 01:50 AM
I have a TowerPro 2409-18 that the smoke leaked out of on one of the poles.:roll:

What is the feasibility of stripping the motor down, rewinding it with new wire and putting it back in service?

What kind of wire should I buy? What is the winding pattern? How many turns? Etc...

-Gnascher

CHELLIE
09-30-2007, 03:31 AM
I have a TowerPro 2409-18 that the smoke leaked out of on one of the poles.:roll:

What is the feasibility of stripping the motor down, rewinding it with new wire and putting it back in service?

What kind of wire should I buy? What is the winding pattern? How many turns? Etc...

-Gnascher

Hi Gnascher :ws: thats the beauty of these cheap towerpro motors, once they go out on you, just throw them away, they are a throw away motor,and get another one, I have only had one motor go out on me so far, and i just tossed it out, here is a great place to get some more Towerpro motors Cheap, take care, Chellie

https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=184&ParentCat=59

Gnascher
09-30-2007, 04:41 PM
Hi Gnascher :ws: thats the beauty of these cheap towerpro motors, once they go out on you, just throw them away, they are a throw away motor,and get another one, I have only had one motor go out on me so far, and i just tossed it out, here is a great place to get some more Towerpro motors Cheap, take care, Chellie

Agreed ... and I've already replaced the cooked one. I jut thought it'd be a fun project to gain a deeper understanding of BL motor construction. I wouldn't be surprised to find that I spend more on materials for the rewind than I spent on the motor in the first place. I want to do it "just to do it".

fr4nk1yn
09-30-2007, 05:13 PM
I've been reading on rewinding the last week.

It seems like, to me at least, taking the motor apart and finding out how many turns and what gauge wire is the first step.

As far as cost RadioShack sell a 2 pack of enameled wire. (22g 26g & 30g) for $5.

CHELLIE
09-30-2007, 11:41 PM
Agreed ... and I've already replaced the cooked one. I jut thought it'd be a fun project to gain a deeper understanding of BL motor construction. I wouldn't be surprised to find that I spend more on materials for the rewind than I spent on the motor in the first place. I want to do it "just to do it".

Hi Gnascher :ws: I agree with you too :D that would be a fun project to do,there are a lot of smart people over in the motor winding thread that can point you in the right direction, Take care and have fun, Chellie

pd1
10-01-2007, 12:19 AM
Here's where I got my wire.
http://www.strongrcmotors.com/Wire.htm

Paul

Saucerguy2
10-01-2007, 02:44 AM
I have one where a couple of the windings tore loose and are now frayed, so I gotta rewind it as well. I've never done it before, just tinkered with making a brushed one from scratch a while ago. If you do it right, you end up with a better motor since the stock windings are rather sloppy which is not as efficient, this alone is a good reason to get into this venue. At the same time, I gotta agree with Chellie, they are so inexpensive, most people should just toss them rather then work on them, "keep the shafts and bearings guys" if you go that route, then again, just put them in a box and sell them as a lot to someone that's into rebuilding them.

jymz
10-01-2007, 04:58 AM
Rewind it. Its fun. (Well its not fun but you will have the satisfaction of knowing you did it) I just learned to rewind on some $10.00 Blue Wonder motors. I now have a matched pair on my F-82 and one for my P-51. They are better in every way than the stock motors and made for how they will be used. I would try the 26G RadioShack wire.

Good luck
Jim

Kemorc
10-01-2007, 05:02 AM
so whats going on here... is there too much current going to the wire and its just burning the wire? Might want to bump up a gauge.

Gnascher
10-01-2007, 06:11 AM
so whats going on here... is there too much current going to the wire and its just burning the wire? Might want to bump up a gauge.

Perhaps. But I suspect it's more likely poor QC on these cheap motors. Bound to get a rotten egg once in a while.

Saucerguy2
10-01-2007, 06:29 AM
In my case, I put them through severe abuse, I have two dead eflight 450's that are in the same condition. This is the pitfalls for flying prototypes.

Kemorc
10-01-2007, 06:29 AM
anyone know the actual size gauge on that motor?

Gnascher
10-01-2007, 01:04 PM
anyone know the actual size gauge on that motor?

I'm going to see if I have a pair of calipers laying around to measure the wire diameter. But in the mean time ... if anybody has that info handy, you'll save me some time!

pd1
10-01-2007, 04:51 PM
Here's some charts to help determine AWG size from diameter.

Paul

Kemorc
10-01-2007, 09:11 PM
;) you guys are on your own to find this out. I dont have a TowerPro motor... or any good motor besides my stocker :(

This sucks being a Noob lol...

Saucerguy2
10-01-2007, 10:22 PM
Don't feel so bad, you are actually going to come out ahead in the short and long run. Those e-flight 450's were $70.00 a piece, the TP ones were 10.00 and they are more powerful, when you go shopping, you'll be better educated and will be saving a ton of dough.

Kemorc
10-01-2007, 10:33 PM
motor i have been wanting is the Rimfire outrunner... Cant wait :D

Gnascher
10-02-2007, 12:47 AM
Here's some charts to help determine AWG size from diameter.

Paul

Thanks Paul. These'll come in handy. Now to find those calipers... :)

I just got back from flying after work today. Couldn't have asked for more perfect conditions. Flew all three batteries and got probably 45 minutes of airtime. That ThunderPower 2100 just goes and goes...

pd1
10-02-2007, 01:45 PM
Gnasher, I was hoping someone else with more knowledge on this subject would step up and explain how to do this.

I have made a few Komodo 283v2 motors and rewound a couple of others.
I'm no expert, I don't have all the answers.
I don't even have all the questions yet.

But here's some information that might help.

When you disassemble your motor the lead out wires are going to be close to the stator.
43063
You have to unravel or stretch them away so you can determine a couple of things.
43060 43061


1. Is it a "Y" or Delta wind.
2. Is it one strand or multi strands per wind.
3. If possible, count the winds.
4. Remove the old wire from the stator and be carefull to not scratch or dent the stator.

Here's an instruction sheet from the Komodo motor.
I highly recommend this motor kit.43062

I purchased them from:
http://www.strongrcmotors.com/Komodo%20Kits%20and%20Parts.htm
I highly recommend this place too.

Measure the wire diameter.

Now you have to decide to rewind exactly as before or change the winds for different results.

More turns give lower current draw, and less turns more power.

If you opt for more power with less turns, you have to up the wire diameter.
You want to get as much copper as possible around the stator legs.

For me the only good use for Radio Shack wire is for determining if a larger diameter will fit.

The coating on Radio Shack wire is not the highest quality.
It chips and peels off easily.
More than once I've wound three phases and when I checked Resistance with a meter I've found the Radio Shack wire had "shorted".

If the copper wire gets warm and the insulation fails, you let the magic smoke out.
Use a quality wire.

While you can improve the performance of your motor by rewinding, there are other factor preventing this motor from jumping real high on the efficiency ratings.

As I understand it,the stator material, stator plate thickness, machining accuracy of the stator have a large effect.
Stator to magnet gap would be the accuracy of the stator plates.

Also the magnet quality and strength is a factor.

Good luck, it is a learning experience.

Paul

Saucerguy2
10-02-2007, 02:13 PM
Something else to consider, the more neat the wind, the better, everytime you have to double back over a wind, it negates the process, which is why alot of people complain about a less then stellar winding job in the first place, which I'm looking at these TP motors going, what a mess and loss of efficiency. I too am no expert on doing this, in fact, these will be my first brushless ones I do myself, hate seeing perfectly good motor's collecting dust, that and since I abuse mine regularly, might as well bite the bullet.

You gave out some good info, now, let the egg heads chime in here and give us specifics like that, that would be really helpful. I thought there was a "T" wind as well? I could be wrong, charting new ground here, the Delta wind seems to be the best out there from what I hear as well. Where are you getting your wire from, I'd hate to have to go to the trouble of doing one only to find rat shacks wire is not going to work?

pd1
10-02-2007, 02:53 PM
SG, I get my wire from Don Strong at Strong rc motors. Link in previous post.
If you have anyone nearby that rewinds automotive electric motors you could get some quality wire from them.

Personally, so far, I like the "Y" wind.
There is another, I believe it's called a, "LRK" wind. I have to learn more about this wind .

The delta wind gives more power, but at the expense of higher current draw.

For my particular flying, I tend to overpower my airplanes and use lower power settings for most of the flight.

I only use full power for vertical portions of the flight, loops and climbs.
I don't do 3D so power isn't an issue with me.

So the "Y" wind is all I need right now.

Paul

Hand-Eye-Guy
10-15-2007, 06:42 PM
I also have a 2408 that needs to be rewound, one of the wires broke off. I do feel as though I could rewind on of these motors and will post my pix and experience once I get around to doing it. It would be fun to see if there is a noticable difference.

ron_van_sommeren
10-15-2007, 06:53 PM
@pd1/Paul
Y and delta are not winds, they describe the way the phases are hooked up. LRK and cd-rom are winding diagrams, both can be hooked up eithter in star or delta.

Whether you use star or delta makes no difference, you can get exactly the same motor (Kv, Kt, Io, Ri) with both configurations: 17 winds in delta/triange is the same as 10 winds in star/wye (factor 1.7 = v3 ). (Wire diameter has to be changed accordingly of course)
However, delta is a closed circuit all by itself, differences between the wound phases (#winds, wire-length or -diameter) may lead to differences in the voltages induced in the coils/phases. Useless circular currents will flow through the delta circuit, which leads to higher temperature and lower efficiency.
Therefore: star/wye.

Winding diagram depends on the number of statorpoles and number of magnetpoles, see the table in Brian Mulder's tutorial mentioned down below.


About (D)LRK
12 statorpoles, 6 (lrk) or 12(dlrk) wound, 10 or 14magnetpoles:
DLRK winding tutorial
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736580
LRK winding
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523039
http://www.torcman.de/peterslrk/index_eng.html

About winding wire
Go to your local friendly motor/transformer rewinder/refurbisher or repair shop. Excellent quality, all gauges, penny stuff, you'll probably get it for free if you bring your motor along. They love it when they can handle a motor without an overhead crane :D And maybe let them have a spin with your plane once you finished your motor? You know, in case you need wire again for your next motor ;)


Excellent motor building articles by Brian Mulder, a must read, will prevent you from asking a lot of questions you even did not know you were going to ask ;) ;)
http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.za/
-> Articles by SouthEasterners.
-> Electric Motors - part 1-5

Do-it-yourself motor homepages, manuals/tutorials, checks and tests in this motor builders tips and tricks thread. The checks and tests may save you from frying your controller or motor. Thread is active, bookmark it for future reference and subscribe to it:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993 (sticky thread, at top of subforum)


Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron
• diy motor building tips & tricks (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993)
• diy brushless motor discussion group (http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/lrk-torquemax)
• Drive Calculator (http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/D-calc/) download & discussion group
• int. E fly-in & diy outrunner meet (http://home.hetnet.nl/%7Eronvans/), Nijmegen, the Netherlands

ron_van_sommeren
10-15-2007, 07:18 PM
Rewinding a TowerPro 3520, information can be used of number of statorpoles and magnetpoles are the same as in the 2409:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563695

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472062
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456515

Or search for BP21 , BP-21 rewinds

Gnascher
10-15-2007, 07:26 PM
Ron,

This is fantastic information, thanks. I've shelved the project for the time being, but I'll definitely be referring to this stuff when I get to it.

-G

pd1
10-15-2007, 11:29 PM
Ron, Thanks for stepping up.

I was hoping someone that actually knew what they were talking about would give some information.

As I said I don't even know the questions to ask yet.

Paul

ron_van_sommeren
10-16-2007, 08:38 PM
... More turns give lower current draw, and less turns more power. ...For a given voltage of course. Also:
More winds will give lower Kv (rpm/Volt) and higher Kt (torque/Ampère). And vice versa ...

I forgot to mention my 'own' diy motor group:
www.yahoogroups.com/group/lrk-torquemax (http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/lrk-torquemax)


Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron
Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron
• Drive Calculator (http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/D-calc/) download & discussion group
• int. E fly-in & diy outrunner meet (http://home.hetnet.nl/%7Eronvans/), Nijmegen, the Netherlands

fr4nk1yn
10-22-2007, 06:27 PM
<snip> The coating on Radio Shack wire is not the highest quality.
It chips and peels off easily.
More than once I've wound three phases and when I checked Resistance with a meter I've found the Radio Shack wire had "shorted".
I agree with that. After I posted I tried winding with the RS wire and it shorted every time. The last time I tried it I was being extra careful plus checking after every tooth and upon finishing it developed a short on the first phase. It's garbage. The local rewinder gave me some wire when I went there with my stator (:

Saucerguy2
10-22-2007, 10:59 PM
I'm just hanging out in the background, reading posts and waiting for you guys to find a bulletproof working system for rewinding before I start on mine. Meanwhile, I just retrofitted a parkzone cub motor gear shaft onto one of mine, it's slightly smaller in diameter to the original by such a small fraction, it's barely noticable and only through the friction of it when placed in the stator, I'll grab a fresh spinner and see if it's going to work, if it does, we now have a cheap, easy to acquire replacement shaft for these motors.

pd1
10-23-2007, 12:01 AM
I agree with that. After I posted I tried winding with the RS wire and it shorted every time. The last time I tried it I was being extra careful plus checking after every tooth and upon finishing it developed a short on the first phase. It's garbage. The local rewinder gave me some wire when I went there with my stator (:

fr4nk1yn, Maybe one of the more experienced motor guys would have no trouble with the Radio Shack wire.
I'm not that experienced and I had problems with it.

At least you know it's the wire and not you.

Paul

ron_van_sommeren
10-23-2007, 03:47 PM
Preventing shorts, #13 up to #27
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993

Several stator insulation methods:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373184

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

Saucerguy2
10-24-2007, 12:10 AM
The parkzone cub shaft worked, there is a little vibration, not sure if it's the motor itself, ie. the bell could easily be slightly warped due to the thin metal it's constructed with. So, looks like I found a cheap easy to acquire replacement shaft. I'll try the e-flight one on it next, it's more expensive but more robust, I'll try to find something made from stainless or titanium afterwards.

Gnascher
10-24-2007, 05:39 AM
The parkzone cub shaft worked, there is a little vibration, not sure if it's the motor itself, ie. the bell could easily be slightly warped due to the thin metal it's constructed with. So, looks like I found a cheap easy to acquire replacement shaft. I'll try the e-flight one on it next, it's more expensive but more robust, I'll try to find something made from stainless or titanium afterwards.

You probably already know this, but you can get towerpro shafts (and bearings) from Jeff at headsuprc.com

He gets $2.20 each for the shafts, and $1.50 each for bearings. His shipping is always $2.00 no matter how much you buy.

-G

Saucerguy2
10-24-2007, 06:36 AM
I like that option, much cheaper then the eflight one. Still, I hate to wait much of the time, so having options, especially ones I can acquire along a local level is always cool to have on hand.

Jeff is a good vendor regardless, when I place my next order with him for gear, I'm just hoping I can do it outside of ebay since I want to save him fees.

Gnascher
10-24-2007, 02:19 PM
I like that option, much cheaper then the eflight one. Still, I hate to wait much of the time, so having options, especially ones I can acquire along a local level is always cool to have on hand.

Jeff is a good vendor regardless, when I place my next order with him for gear, I'm just hoping I can do it outside of ebay since I want to save him fees.

I heard about how soft the Towerpro shafts are, so with my last order I just ordered three of 'em and stuck them in my parts box. I didn't get an bearings though.

I agree Jeff's great. I've had several smooth transactions with him so far. I hadn't considered contacting him outside of eBay ... I wonder if he'd go that route?

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 12:42 AM
I've yanked the shafts out of most of mine and straightened them, I can only get close, the bearings seem to stay in tact through the process so having the extra shafts is going to help since even a fraction of them being off trying to straighten them wreaks havvoc on the system.

I don't think Jeff will have a problem selling outside of ebay, this will also give him more incentive to get his own "outside of ebay" online store. What's cool about this business, we as clients actually care about the well being of the vendor when the vendor is taking care of his clients, in other fields, people simply are looking for a deal and could care less about the well being of who they are purchasing from.

Hand-Eye-Guy
10-26-2007, 08:15 AM
In my case, I put them through severe abuse, I have two dead eflight 450's that are in the same condition. This is the pitfalls for flying prototypes.

What did it take to kill the 450's?

I'm interested as I also own to of these motors, but mine seem fairly tough.