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Saucerguy2
10-23-2007, 01:08 PM
I think the new pool of moderators should come from our members.

What are your thoughts people, I feel having our "own" on board in this area will benifet the boards greatly, especially with interaction. Of which is now, it's member and mod rather then mod hanging out like the rest of the guys....

Saucerguy, FlyingMonkey, BiplaneMurphy, Chellie, etc. as mod's would really change this place.... Think about it staff.

aviatordave
10-23-2007, 01:19 PM
Interesting point. I've felt that the mods (the active ones) fit in as some of the guys/gals. Although I seem to notice that some Mods do not visit the site very often, sometimes more than 30 days. I could see fixing that part with a member who is well known and an active user.

my 2 cents

Saucerguy2
10-23-2007, 01:23 PM
aviatordave added to the list of candidates.

You are right with that one.

Slowjohn
10-23-2007, 01:41 PM
Uh, what did I miss? Is this the line for...? I forgot.

Standing By,
SJ

Grasshopper
10-23-2007, 02:24 PM
Interesting point. I've felt that the mods (the active ones) fit in as some of the guys/gals. Although I seem to notice that some Mods do not visit the site very often, sometimes more than 30 days. I could see fixing that part with a member who is well known and an active user.

my 2 cents

We could call it the Mod Squad. I think Dave is Linc.:D

Some of you young pups may not remember that show.

Saucerguy2
10-23-2007, 10:37 PM
There are lots and lots of regulars here, so far everybody that's posting, I further nominate added to this unofficial list.

FlyingMonkey
10-23-2007, 10:58 PM
Weazilla has already said she would kill me, if I ever became a mod, anywhere....

Frank Voikel
10-23-2007, 10:59 PM
I'm certainly on WF enough to count as a moderator...:Q
Hey, I've got an idea! Admin could make me moderator of humor/OT!

Can you say, "No more Monkey"?

Just kidding, we have too much fun to stop the abuse. The beatings will continue until morale improves!

Frank Voikel
10-23-2007, 11:00 PM
Weazilla has already said she would kill me, if I ever became a mod, anywhere....

Why the death threats?

NUTS
10-23-2007, 11:39 PM
I think the new pool of moderators should come from our members.

What are your thoughts people, I feel having our "own" on board in this area will benifet the boards greatly, especially with interaction. Of which is now, it's member and mod rather then mod hanging out like the rest of the guys....

Saucerguy, FlyingMonkey, BiplaneMurphy, Chellie, etc. as mod's would really change this place.... Think about it staff.

I've always been leary of anyone who want's to hold power. Kinda like anyone who acually want's to be President. It's funny, you put your own name at the top of the list.:rolleyes:
By the way, what needs to be changed about this place?
Nuts

Airhead
10-23-2007, 11:57 PM
I like "The Mod Squad". Kinda scary.... and, don't hurt the Monkey..

Saucerguy2
10-24-2007, 12:00 AM
I was a moderator and co admin in another popular RC related forum, so been there, done that. The underlying theme lately is that some of our current ones aren't participating as regular members, which earlier, it was really cool when they did. There was ground broken in this area to eliminate the divide between members and staff, this creates the Club type of feel for the boards, of which Mike explained how he wants it to be, which is a cool way of going at it.

As one of the members posted, some of these guys don't even log into the boards for a great deal of time, yet still remain in authority and I'm going, what's the point of holding that position if you don't care enough about this place to participate regularly in. On another note, I made it clear as to how there are situations where staff should simply butt out, let the members work out their differences and basically self police themselves. There was a thread I was involved in where one of the moderators actually made things alot worse and Mike did not like it when I pointed that out at all. That same thread, I was given advice from several regular members, they were behaving as staff members, yet were using alot of tact and I took their advice, this was far better then simply shouting an order to me because they are staff and I'm just a lowly member. I even had a moderator I've never heard of before try to "police" their way in a thread where they knew nothing about the political elements that were going on in the first place, I'm going, who the heck are you, and then had to explain to that individual what's going on and why.

Ultimately, my vision is for all of us to feel a sense of ownership here, not just outsiders participating under the tree of rules and regulations set forth from an outside party. At the same time, I feel suggestions made, may indeed get taken more seriously from a well respected and "liked" moderator, rather then just a regular member. It's not about gaining personal power, it's about getting rid of the wall between staff and members. Personally, I know this will never happen though, I'd like to see an elimination of all moderator status's, we simply are such a cival bunch, we don't need that much policing and what little we do, can be taken care of by our members where the majority has the say so, not the minority. There has been a few threads where I led through example upon how to address things when there is a divide, using tact and in general, doing what a staff member would normally be doing. I remain friends with the individuals regardless and there never was a riff in the process, most of the time, all you need is a gentle nudge.

Let's look at the USAPatriots forum, there is only one guy in charge, Rod, the owner, that place is very much by the themes, more radical then WF and not PC at all, you'd think there would be alot of arguments based upon that element, so it would require more moderators, yet it remains cival. That's an example of what I'm saying in action, it works guys.

Frank Voikel
10-24-2007, 12:01 AM
I like "The Mod Squad". Kinda scary.... and, don't hurt the Monkey..

Yeah... I've been mentally slapping myself on the wrist every time I bring up Monkey in a non-OT thread.
In EDIAYMD, he's fair game, but everywhere else? That's a different story.

I agree that a few 'civilian' mods would be good for the community.

'Mod Squad'... I like the name!

stevecooper
10-24-2007, 12:05 AM
That "Bub" guy could do it and it might keep him from post'in so much B,S an Hijack'in everyones threads, your bub, anonymous

Frank Voikel
10-24-2007, 12:20 AM
Let's look at the USAPatriots forum, there is only one guy in charge, Rod, the owner, that place is very much by the themes, more radical then WF and not PC at all, you'd think there would be alot of arguments based upon that element, so it would require more moderators, yet it remains cival. That's an example of what I'm saying in action, it works guys.

Just for fairness sakes, USAPatriot's America is a bit smaller (10-15 active members) than WF. However, I agree that Rod does a good job keeping it all intact.

NUTS
10-24-2007, 12:36 AM
Thanks for the response Brian. I've been on Watt Flyer since 05. I really don't see the need for a change of Mods. As you said we all tend to police ourselves quite well. I feel this is the best site around for our hobby. Too much politics on the other sites. From reading your response it seems to me that you are looking for some sort of athority here. You wanting to change something that ain't broke seems kinda political to me.
Don't take this the wronge way. I've read many of your post, you seem to be a great guy and an asset to this site. Just stay clear of the politics.

Regards,
Nuts

FlyingMonkey
10-24-2007, 01:19 AM
Why the death threats?

You HAVE been following the story line, right?

Poor innocent and abused monkey...

Mean, evil, abusive, cruel, tormenting, deranged, insane, vindictive, weasel....

and you're suprised by death threats?





mainly because she thinks I would take it too serious.

where as now, I just come here for fun.

Mike Parsons
10-24-2007, 02:04 AM
Not that I necessarily understand the intent of this thread, I appreciate the opinions shared as always. Our staff is chosen by the administrators as well as feedback from other staff members. Things like how they deal with situations, general post content and the way they carry themselves. Staff members are WattFlyer members first. That is the way it has been since the beginning and the way it will be as long as I have a hand on the wheel.


I dont feel that I should have to explain this, but will since it is apparently a perceived issue. Staff members attendance is not a problem. Remember, every staff member on this board is a volunteer (including me). We are here not for the money or fame, but to help. Everyone has a personal life outside of this website and RC in general. Family and self first is my motto. Staff members have other obligations, to include Family, Military Service, Travel for work etc. If a staff member is not going to be around for an extended period, then I know about it as well as the back up or secondary Staff Member. Truth be told, WattFlyer's members conduct themselves with class and integrity overall, that we as Staff don't have to moderate all too much. So you can't look at Mod "A" who hasn't logged in for 7 days and know that he isnt on military assignment, or traveling for work, or on vacation with his family. But we communicate and are aware of these things.

We are not adding or making any changes to our staff at this time, but I appreciate the nominations/volunteers and will post an announcment should we need any additional resources in the future.

FlyingMonkey
10-24-2007, 02:14 AM
We are here not for the money or fame,


Whoa!

Wait one minute.

There's money and fame to be had?

Well Weazilla be darned, I want to be a mod, for the good of the people!




and the money and fame....

firemanbill
10-24-2007, 02:24 AM
Thanks for the response Brian. I've been on Watt Flyer since 05. I really don't see the need for a change of Mods. As you said we all tend to police ourselves quite well. I feel this is the best site around for our hobby. Too much politics on the other sites. From reading your response it seems to me that you are looking for some sort of athority here. You wanting to change something that ain't broke seems kinda political to me.
Don't take this the wronge way. I've read many of your post, you seem to be a great guy and an asset to this site. Just stay clear of the politics.

Regards,
Nuts

I agree... I don't think anything is wrong here that needs fixin at all. The best board I've ever been on that's for sure!:D

Mike Parsons
10-24-2007, 02:26 AM
Whoa!

Wait one minute.

There's money and fame to be had?
and the money and fame....

All you can eat mud fish too. If you believe that then..yes plenty of money and fame ;-)

aviatordave
10-24-2007, 02:29 AM
Weazilla has already said she would kill me, if I ever became a mod, anywhere....

This goes back to that jar on the shelf that weazilla holds, its part of Wilburs Manhood :eek:. It also explains the 80 year old female supervisor that gets to boss Wilbur around all day. :<: (she has his spinal cord)

Poor wilbur....we'd give you a chance here....honest we would!

Ribcracker
10-24-2007, 02:36 AM
I'm with Nuts. There's nothing broken here.
I wouldn't change a thing. Not a thing!!!

Biplane Murphy
10-24-2007, 02:40 AM
Well.... I for one appreciate the thankless and payless job the Mods do here.....And agree that this is by far the friendliest RC forum..... I know that It is a hard job to regulate peoples behaviour and remain impartial.

On a side note.... Mike it's almost Halloween.... any plans yet for Freddo's Avatar Costume yet?.......:D

FlyingMonkey
10-24-2007, 02:46 AM
I'm with Nuts. There's nothing broken here.
I wouldn't change a thing. Not a thing!!!

Hold on, lets not be hasty...

We could change one thing, or two...

I suppose, for the good of the board, and it's members, I'd let them make me all powerful, rich and famous!!!

Ahem, I meant, I would be willing to do my part by becoming a public servant. :D

aviatordave
10-24-2007, 02:51 AM
Ahem, I meant, I would be willing to do my part by becoming a public servant. :D

May1-4, 2008. You will be plenty busy getting Tom and I sodas, lunch, and keeping our planes airworthy.

I agree with the above posts, this forum is user friendly and quite smooth in operation. We know how to get in contact with mods if trolls appear.

FlyingMonkey
10-24-2007, 02:52 AM
All you can eat mud fish too. If you believe that then..yes plenty of money and fame ;-)

All I have to do is believe in all I can eat mud fish....

And if you've ever tried Weazilla's cooking, you would feel like the first bite, was made of mud, and all you could eat.

show me the money!

Frank Voikel
10-24-2007, 02:53 AM
We've been lucky so far; the only 'successful' troll that I've noticed is that one guy with a few million posts.

FlyingMonkey
10-24-2007, 02:54 AM
there's been a couple troll like characters...

Saucerguy2
10-24-2007, 03:00 AM
We are not adding or making any changes to our staff at this time, but I appreciate the nominations/volunteers and will post an announcment should we need any additional resources in the future.

I guess this is a small semi example of what I mean, since these boards are created and designed one way, the users have no real say so as to how it should evolve, especially saying, this will not happen, that alone is showing a division between staff and members, showing the power and control over everything is still in the staff's hands, when it really should be in the members.

I very much understand how certain procedures, policies, etc. need to be in tact in order to prevent things from going awry, that's never been an issue, but when you simply get shot down for presenting an idea, it doesn't make you feel like part of the actual team, and in the end, we have no ability to keep the ship running on course. I will reference that other board for an example, having watched the owner make one mistake after another, he really screwed up the place and there were many times where I told him to cool it, yet he'd persist with it all, only to have things blow up in his face. Luckily I have never seen WF staff play those games, but that's more of an extreem situation where it shows, the owner with complete control having made a mistake pay's for it personally, yet if a few people are making the decision, and they make a mistake, they get to share the blame, but at least, they as a team decided upon what action to take so that should be minimal.

Forums, all forums evolve, part of it is from the outside, ie. the revisions made to the layout and site design overall, part of it is from the inside with how members are constantly adding content, changing this place. I take note as to the tone, the general changes I guess most don't notice because they are too subtle for them, but I see this place changing, and in some ways, not in a positive way since there is more tension now, which in turn is working against your very vision for this place, of which we all are in agreement with as to it being the proper direction and the reason we are loyal to this place.

This place is expanding, it constantly will, just be prepared for it.

In a nutshell, I'm thinking Democracy.

firemanbill
10-24-2007, 03:03 AM
I don't see it as a divison at all.

Marc and the guys started this board and it is theirs to do with as they please... Heck they could turn it off tomorrow for that matter...

If you don't like the way it's run start your own and run it as you see fit.

I like it Mike. Good job to you and all the rest!:D

Airhead
10-24-2007, 03:24 AM
Not that I necessarily understand the intent of this thread, I appreciate the opinions shared as always. Our staff is chosen by the administrators as well as feedback from other staff members. Things like how they deal with situations, general post content and the way they carry themselves. Staff members are WattFlyer members first. That is the way it has been since the beginning and the way it will be as long as I have a hand on the wheel.


I dont feel that I should have to explain this, but will since it is apparently a perceived issue. Staff members attendance is not a problem. Remember, every staff member on this board is a volunteer (including me). We are here not for the money or fame, but to help. Everyone has a personal life outside of this website and RC in general. Family and self first is my motto. Staff members have other obligations, to include Family, Military Service, Travel for work etc. If a staff member is not going to be around for an extended period, then I know about it as well as the back up or secondary Staff Member. Truth be told, WattFlyer's members conduct themselves with class and integrity overall, that we as Staff don't have to moderate all too much. So you can't look at Mod "A" who hasn't logged in for 7 days and know that he isnt on military assignment, or traveling for work, or on vacation with his family. But we communicate and are aware of these things.

We are not adding or making any changes to our staff at this time, but I appreciate the nominations/volunteers and will post an announcment should we need any additional resources in the future.
Hey Mike,
The work that yourself and all the Moderators do to keep Wattflyer moving forward day after day is much appreciated. So we can hang out here, learn and share our experiences with our aircraft and other areas of our lives. You are correct, in my opinion that you have nothing to explain. Please continue to move all of us forward as we are all Wattflyer..

Grasshopper
10-24-2007, 03:43 AM
Just for the record, my "Mod Squad" post was a joke (although I think Dave would look good with a big old afro). I don't see any reason to change anything either. I don't view this as a democracy. I view it as a forum that someone spent a lot of time, effort and money to develop and it's theirs to do with as they see fit. As far as rules and regulations, it doesn't matter how many mods we have or where they come from, there will still need to be rules and regulations to follow. That's just life in a forum.

I have yet to see anything happen in this forum that I felt was delt with unfairly. The Mods and admin here seem to be as much of the group as any of us. They just have a responsibility to make sure the forum is maintained.

Saucerguy2
10-24-2007, 03:59 AM
Grasshopper, unfortunately, I have seen things handled unfairly, sometimes it was lack of response from staff, othertimes, things could have been handled differently with a better outcome. I did some damage control for a member, and Mike himself in one case, it took alot of work on my part, but in the end, I managed to fix a mistake that reflected very negatively on them, and it wasn't any one thing that went wrong, but several. I'm trying to keep the latter situation vague in order to not re-raise that can of worms, but the bottom line being, input from the members should hold just as much weight as it does from the staff.

I am in agreement with everybody that apprieciates the efforts put into the creation and maintenance of the boards, I know from personal experience having created my own in a different field, it is work, even despamming the boards alone is alot of work. FMB, I have no plans to create my own board, been there done that, I have too much on my plate to bother with it. But....the banner ads shown here do create revenue so there is fiscal incentive to keep them open. I also have to give Mike and Mark credit for even getting people to pay for ads here, it's a very difficult task to do, at the same time, the bottom line is this. We as members are what make this place viable, without our input, participation, and referrals, there would be no boards, no revenue generated from it, etc. simply because our contributions are what make up the meat and potatoes of this place and no matter how many bell's and whistles are put into here, we matter the most. Nobody sticks around empty boards period.

stinkweed007
10-24-2007, 12:02 PM
Well,

Myself, as the newest moderator, was given the bold text to manage the European Forum because I do good with a few languages, love the hobby, am on the forum quite a bit, and for the purpose of moderating Project Globetrotter. I am humbled and proud of this appointment and been doing my best with the PM's of my friends here who have WF concerns.

I, just like Mike, do have my questions about this thread's intention. But the Mod's are users just like all others.. We love the hobby.. and as far as attendance, we have lives just like everyone else. No punch-cards or shifts, just users who were assigned as delegates by the administration. No evil plans.. or secret squirel meetings like some virtual Survivor..

USA Pat's site, is not oriented to be an all ages site. at leats that was my impression when I took a peek at it.. and while yes they do "work their issues between each other" I wouldnt let my kid read his forum because of its obscenity and sometimes graphic nature. would you?? but I let my kids read WF because of its subject matter and civility. so I don't see the comparrison as you do.

and not to start the mud slinging.. "I have seen things handled unfairly, sometimes it was lack of response from staff, othertimes, things could have been handled differently with a better outcome." the moderators rules are quite simple.. a "take it outside" guideline exists so that the public forum does not get dented by meaningless and sometimes graphic blasting of opposing users. I know.. I was in one once.. but a few PM's from a Mod basically told us to keep to the subject which made it work out.. so not seeing the Mod's at work is quite a good thing.

your post above does kind of sound like the very thing you claim to have thwarted.. a re-raising of a can of worms. it sounds like you are upset about an outcome which did not work in your favor and the site staff must be changed out to a crew more agreeable to your point of view..

So at least on my behalf, "You can please some of the people, some of the time but not all of the people all of the time" Lincoln.

smokejohnson
10-24-2007, 12:21 PM
it sounds like you are upset about an outcome which did not work in your favor and the site staff must be changed out to a crew more agreeable to your point of view..




That's pretty much what I am gathering from this thread. I like you Brian and it's cool to have you around but sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about ????


This is a great forum with some really cool cats :cool: running it. Don't change a thing.

Slowjohn
10-24-2007, 12:54 PM
I see this as a non-issue that needed to be handled differently, perhaps in the new support forum I think it's called. This is the best forum going and with a few exceptions I've seen the members have done very well IMO of taking care of their own problems. Anytime you have this many people chiming in with their views, wishes, desires or however you want to say it your going to have the occasional disagreements. Again IMO the WattFlyer members have done an excellent job of policing themselves.
I think it'll be safe to say that the mods are chosen from the membership and not brought in from outside sources. Anyway I see nothing at all wrong with the way this forum is managed at all and until there is a serious problem that arises that affects us all then the system in place should be left alone to run the way it is currently. As for the amount of time the mods spend online, that's already been covered and I agree with what was stated.
SG, I'm not sure what prompted you to start this thread but it seems more like a mild rant to me. I really think if your not happy with something that seems to be affecting only you then it could/should have been handled in a more private setting. If you weren't pleased with the outcome of the private venue then you had a couple of choices. We the members don't own this forum but are graciously given permission to use it so whatever the powers that be decide then we as members either must go along with that decision or walk away and forget it.
As for the democracy thing, I think there may be a touch of democracy here. A suggestion is made, examined by the powers that be and a decision made. It may be amended at a later date just like our Democratic system. Now to be in line with the rules of this forum I'm not going to go any further with that except to say that IMO it's the best system going also.

Standing By,
SJ

NUTS
10-24-2007, 12:55 PM
I guess this is a small semi example of what I mean, since these boards are created and designed one way, the users have no real say so as to how it should evolve, especially saying, this will not happen, that alone is showing a division between staff and members, showing the power and control over everything is still in the staff's hands, when it really should be in the members.

I very much understand how certain procedures, policies, etc. need to be in tact in order to prevent things from going awry, that's never been an issue, but when you simply get shot down for presenting an idea, it doesn't make you feel like part of the actual team, and in the end, we have no ability to keep the ship running on course. I will reference that other board for an example, having watched the owner make one mistake after another, he really screwed up the place and there were many times where I told him to cool it, yet he'd persist with it all, only to have things blow up in his face. Luckily I have never seen WF staff play those games, but that's more of an extreem situation where it shows, the owner with complete control having made a mistake pay's for it personally, yet if a few people are making the decision, and they make a mistake, they get to share the blame, but at least, they as a team decided upon what action to take so that should be minimal.

Forums, all forums evolve, part of it is from the outside, ie. the revisions made to the layout and site design overall, part of it is from the inside with how members are constantly adding content, changing this place. I take note as to the tone, the general changes I guess most don't notice because they are too subtle for them, but I see this place changing, and in some ways, not in a positive way since there is more tension now, which in turn is working against your very vision for this place, of which we all are in agreement with as to it being the proper direction and the reason we are loyal to this place.

This place is expanding, it constantly will, just be prepared for it.

In a nutshell, I'm thinking Democracy.
Brian

You have been here 6 months and say you see things changing. I've been here since 05 and have seen many changes also, "all for the good". I know my post count is not that high compaired to many here, but I am on the site two to three times a day. I read alot but don't post all that much unless something really catches my eye. Quite honestly this thread is of no use. Please quit trying to make something out of nothing.
By the way the correct definition of Democracy is "Mob Rule". We have leaders who are our Moderators and in my opinion they Rule.

Nuts

FlyingMonkey
10-24-2007, 03:04 PM
Just for the record, my "Mod Squad" post was a joke (although I think Dave would look good with a big old afro).

Don't believe it for a second!

yet another attempt by the corrupt MWS to seize power, whenever, and wherever they can...

Frank Voikel
10-24-2007, 03:13 PM
Don't believe it for a second!

yet another attempt by the corrupt MWS to seize power, whenever, and wherever they can...

Don't believe it for a second!
Yet another attempt by the corrupt Monkey Minions to distort reality to seize power, whenever and wherever they can...

Grasshopper
10-24-2007, 03:22 PM
The MWS doesn't need to sieze power. Unlike the Monkey who begs to be on the staff and still can't get there.

Rabbitcreekok
10-24-2007, 04:05 PM
I have to respectfully disagree with you Saucer Guy. This forum is not a Democracy and was not intended as such. This is a business that has owners and staff, just like, for instance, WalMart.

The customers that walk into WalMart do not get to be staff members in the business. They get to influence the business by whether they purchase goods or not.

As forum members, we can influence the staff by whether we wish to participate in the forum or not. The forum members do not get to be staff unless they are "hired" by the owners of the forum. If the forum goes in a direction a member does not like, the has the option of not "purchasing" anything from the business by going elsewhere. That is the way businesses work.

I don't know which forum you referred to in your post, but it seems that you, at least, have chosen not to purchase anything in his store and that is the way business works. You don't have the option of running the store unless you are "hired" by the owner.

FlyingMonkey
10-24-2007, 04:57 PM
The MWS doesn't need to sieze power. Unlike the Monkey who begs to be on the staff and still can't get there.

I didn't want it, until I found out how much fame and power came with the position!

I just have to eat muddy fish.

stinkweed007
10-24-2007, 05:43 PM
I didn't want it, until I found out how much fame and power came with the position!


aaaaah... the life...

Slowjohn
10-24-2007, 06:09 PM
:Q I Love It :Q Sign Me Up :Q


SJ

Saucerguy2
10-24-2007, 11:32 PM
By all means, if you don't understand, don't agree, there are no hard feelings at all, this is what makes us at WF better then most other forums. The underlying theme to this thread is to show you guys, who indeed holds the power here, it's the members, not the staff, even though the staff dictates what's said and done ultimately, it's our involvment that makes this place happen, never forget that people.

At the same time, please reference what I said about how a group is going to be better at making decisions then an individual. We all are human which means we all have faults, we make mistakes, this is minimized when there is a board compared to a single person in charge. In the business world, the big players have a boards to hammer out decisions, with the smaller ones, it must be run like a dictatorship or the company goes nowhere. I consider WF to no longer be a smaller player, they are no longer an offshoot from RCU. Time, I've only been actually posting here for 6 months, I've been reading the boards for 3 years, and as I stated before, I have more experience with the back end and on the inside of the boards then all of the rest of the nominies, likely more experience on the coding then any of the staff members as well.

I also agree with you guys on Rod's site, it is NOT family friendly at all, I only used it as an example as to how even with one that radical, it remains cival without requiring a ton of outside staff to moderate. Again my point I have to address, we as members are the ones with the power, our opinions should hold just as much weight as staff's and what we want in place should be put in place, otherwise, it's not about staff being "just one of the guys" and turns into yet another dictatorship, of which I'm trying to steer this place away from, which is in line with Mikes vision.

Along loyalty, I took action when no staff, or Mikes partner himself did nothing in regards, I did this to help him, to help the boards, and to help another member. I did so not for personal gain or vanity, I did so because something had to be done and nobody was doing it so I took the initiave and now things are better for everybody.

Something else I need to point out, from the very beginning of posting at WattFlyer, I clearly stated, I loath the wolf pack mentality where members tend to group together to oppose an individual, this thinking and behavior is counterproductive. Each person has the right to their own opinion, even if it's not understood by the group, they should be respected for voicing them as long as tact is being used. This element is something we all must strive to maintain in regards to anybody here with few exception, ie. if someone is simply out of line and being beligerant, the group basically "using tact" saying cool it is a good thing. There have been many times where the regular members could have nipped things in the bud, once staff jumps in, the individual will immediately go on the defensive and it tends to spiral downwards from there. There are people banned from this place, people that refuse to stay involved, people that are totally turned off from Watt Flyer because staff mismanaged them. This should never have to happen, even in the most extreem cases, people can be managed and addressed, it just takes more TLC in some cases.

I'll keep posting responses until everybody understands what I'm saying, I'm very much pro Watt Flyer, just trying to fix what is broken that nobody is seeing, my vision for this place is in line with Mikes and bringing it closer to his ideal is what it's all about. Know in your heart, I very much consider all of you guys my friends and I want to keep it that way.

Airhead
10-25-2007, 12:31 AM
:Q I Love It :Q Sign Me Up :Q


SJ
:eek:;-)

FlyingMonkey
10-25-2007, 12:55 AM
There have been many times where the regular members could have nipped things in the bud, once staff jumps in, the individual will immediately go on the defensive and it tends to spiral downwards from there.

Yet your very proposal would be counter productive to this.

You're suggesting that you take some of the people, the regular members, who you consider to have influence here on the board, and give them a badge. Thus making them staff, and putting anyone that they try to talk to, on the defensive....

I'll keep posting responses until everybody understands what I'm saying,

Sorry, but this so very much sounds like... "The beatings will continue until moral improves."

I don't think anyone is asking for clarification. They are saying, it ain't broke, no need to fix it. You're suggesting democracy, and the votes are coming in overwhelmingly that things need no improvement, at least not in this department.

I think you lost much potential support, when you recommended a poo slinger to be in charge of anything.....

FlyingMonkey
10-25-2007, 12:56 AM
aaaaah... the life...

well, minus the beer, monkeys don't drink beer....

I just mix up some fermented banana shakes instead

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 01:02 AM
Fred, a short while back, you demostrated that you can be a good moderator to me, which is why I reccomended you, that and the fact you are a jokester would put people at ease should you actually have to do your duties as a moderator, people would be less likely to take the defensive in your case.

Of course it's going to be left in tact, just saying, I said my peace and put my concerns on the table, if this place turns into anything other then the original vision for WattFlyer, expect much less, if not all out, no participation from me and many other members, there is a reason we come back and stay with WattFlyer as our primary boards, I want to keep it that way.

Yet your very proposal would be counter productive to this.

You're suggesting that you take some of the people, the regular members, who you consider to have influence here on the board, and give them a badge. Thus making them staff, and putting anyone that they try to talk to, on the defensive....



Sorry, but this so very much sounds like... "The beatings will continue until moral improves."

I don't think anyone is asking for clarification. They are saying, it ain't broke, no need to fix it. You're suggesting democracy, and the votes are coming in overwhelmingly that things need no improvement, at least not in this department.

I think you lost much potential support, when you recommended a poo slinger to be in charge of anything.....

Airhead
10-25-2007, 01:12 AM
Sorry, but this so very much sounds like... "The beatings will continue until moral improves."

Hey....
This sounds like my job......;-)

Kosh
10-25-2007, 02:31 AM
There are people banned from this place, people that refuse to stay involved, people that are totally turned off from Watt Flyer because staff mismanaged them. This should never have to happen, even in the most extreem cases, people can be managed and addressed, it just takes more TLC in some cases.


So I guess you its ok with you for some to disrupt the forums on a daily basis and draw MANY complaints from members. Its really quite hard to be banned from Wattflyer and the user is warned multiple times and then knowingly commits more abuses.

You say they only need more TLC and in the meantime that user is driving others away in droves. So just how long do you keep a trouble maker around that cant follow simple rules? One year, Two years?

Have a look in the user stats and I think you will see that 95% Admin/Mods are very active. I always consider myself a poster first and thankfully don't have to do much Mod work other that delete spam and spend a few hours editing the AP contests. I do check every link and video posted in the forums I'm responsible for and spend about 2 or more hours daily here.

Thread Starters

User
Threads
Don Sims (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=4016)
544
Sky Sharkster (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=399)
306
RSS Feed (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=8730)
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Grasshopper (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=5910)
238
admin (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=1)
231
firemanbill (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=3598)
220
Twmaster (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=3475)
209
Mike Parsons (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=15)
188
Kosh (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=5603)
157
watt_the?! (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=3912)
154

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 03:56 AM
Kosh, the sword gets weilded, believe me, I've seen things get way out of hand and could have been nipped in the bud. Technically following the rules, users can still disrupt things and stay within the confines of the actual parameters. This is where I say, inaction can and is an issue at times. I've had a member bug the crap out of me, we all know who he is, yet over, and over again, I had to tell the powers that be, there is a problem here. Instead of addressing it, they simply coddled the member with a "stern warning" it's not enough in that case and you aren't necessarily able to apply simple human logic to an individual that does not think like a logical human being. There are very few individuals like that in this world, but when you notice it, you must address things differently, ie. one shoe does not fit all people.

In other cases, where you are dealing with someone that's simply having a bad day, or is "drunk posting" you must handle it differently, knowing this is a temporary problem and they usually regret what actions they take the next day. Again, you aren't dealing with the rational in those cases, so if you feed into it, nothing positive results. At the same time, this isn't Jerry Springer, everytime I see a thread totally out of control, I look back and think, there must be something more to it and do my best to listen to both parties points of view. Information from that area, where you indeed see both sides gives you the absolute best, most tactful direction along which action needs to be taken, this includes PM, phone, and/or email's between both parties to get the full picture.

Rugar
10-25-2007, 05:01 AM
I've seen things get way out of hand and could have been nipped in the bud. Technically following the rules, users can still disrupt things and stay within the confines of the actual parameters.

Do you mean sorta like this thread?

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 05:04 AM
The difference in this thread, it is not "me" that is being hostile, I have been using tact the entire time, and in fact, there is very little emotion involved on my end at all.

I am proving something in the process as well, I'll fill you in when I deem fit.

Rugar
10-25-2007, 05:38 AM
Oh, you are proving something alright. And all the members can see it!
You wanted Mods that can post as just one of the guys. Well here you go!

Just who do you think you are that you feel that you can come into someones home (All the members of WattFlyer that call this home) and just try to take over the place? Your still two days away from even being a member here for six months. Everything your saying about the members policing themselves is already taking place. That is with one exception, and that's YOU running the show. If you feel you can do such a better job then the crew already in place, prove it by starting your own site! Oh wait, you already tried that!

Now do you feel better that you got a response from a regular member and not a Mod? Did I use "tact? NOPE! I too can see the way that different members need to be handled in different situations. Should this have been handled in private like we do with most members? Probably, but your the one that wanted this to be a open discussion so here you go!

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 06:29 AM
Ez boy, you are not showing in a positive light. I'll address your points fully tomorrow, after you have had time to cool off.

Ok, next.

Kosh
10-25-2007, 06:44 AM
Ok, next.

Next, Lets ask the question again because your dancing all over the place here and I sure don't see anyone coming to your aid on this.

So just how long do you keep a trouble maker around that cant follow simple rules? One year, Two years?

How many offenses are allowed before there banned in your world?

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 07:15 AM
I said next because it's now one wave after another of mod's, so just explaining how ridicoules it is and I'm fully aware of what's going on.

I thought I explained my answer well, I can of course reinterate it if you wish, re-read the response if you overlooked it.

I'm not too worried about having someone "come to my rescue" it's not I that needs to be rescued in the first place, nor would I expect anybody to place themselves behind me at this point, no biggie guys, I'm hammering out something here that needs to be done.

Along how many offenses, it's up to the site owner, of which I am not, nor do I wish to become part of the moderator team at all anymore. Be consistant is really the bottom line if you want to be absolute and technical about it. With a member that's making mistakes and not trying to break the rules, just happens to do so, you show more leniency, with a member that knows the rules perfectly, yet stays within them and only causes problems, you show no leniency, and even though, they technically did not break a single rule, they are basically told to go away, banning them outright without notice will likely bring negative results, but is used as an absolute last resort.

Also, when you post something, take note of the new warning Mike recently put in place and think to yourself, are you following the rules or are you breaking them? At any time, any of you guys that want to retract what you said, I will not bring it up again, you do have that option and I am adult enough to overlook them, knowing this is stirring up emotion, of which we need to get past and not my intention at all.

Being a moderator and a member at the same time is a difficult task, always know guys, I do feel for you in this area, my intentions are to bring you closer to us, not push you away.

Rugar
10-25-2007, 07:22 AM
Ez boy, you are not showing in a positive light. I'll address your points fully tomorrow, after you have had time to cool off.

Ok, next.

I can hardly wait. :roll:

stinkweed007
10-25-2007, 07:50 AM
Ok this one bugged me...

At the same time, please reference what I said about how a group is going to be better at making decisions then an individual.

I will have you know that most decisions from the moderators are made as a group. and final decisions are made my Mike and Marc. and there have been some very hard decisions (the hardest are those surrounding conduct of users) but these decisions, first, receive 3+ page discussions before ANY action takes place. We are not just a few good 'ol boys with big text and a few extra buttons..
Rabbitcreekok-This forum is not a Democracy and was not intended as such. This is a business that has owners and staff, just like, for instance, WalMart.

exactly..

however it would seem that the true purpose of this thread is your on-going aggrivation over past incidents where YOU were not shown in a good light, and blame the the staff and us Mod's.
In other cases, where you are dealing with someone that's simply having a bad day, or is "drunk posting" you must handle it differently,
and here is what you are really complaining about, you vs 300Spartians
you seem (eluded to in this thread alone) to be perfectly content with the -let all sides have a say- but then you don't mean 'everybody'.. because as you said...
this isn't Jerry Springer

basically I see that somewhere in this thread you must have a specific complaint and a specific point.. can you please do us a favor and tell us EXACTLY what it is!!
many of your posts (in this thread) are dancing around stuff and contradicting things in you other posts and fading away from the shock value of your initial post... If you are upset about something, lets handle it.. it dont mean that it will work out exactly the way you want it.. but never the less, it will be addressed and the appropriate action will prevail..

but if it is your intention to somehow institute a forum riot over the blunt mistreatment of users by the Mod's and staff as if pawns.. I think you will find, just by reading in this thread what OUR peers have posted, it is you who may be mistaken.. I dont see the mob of torches and pitchforks.

ok... NEXT

stinkweed007
10-25-2007, 07:54 AM
I think the new pool of moderators should come from our members.
or
my intentions are to bring you closer to us, not push you away.

man... you lost me

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 08:49 AM
Don't keep taking the defensive gentlemen, I very much am thinking of the best interest of WattFlyer at all times, so please keep that in it's context.

You can quote and comment as much as you want and take jabs at me, there really is no reason to do so, yet you insist upon this mob mentality where one person jumps aboard and the others follow. You don't normally have that luxury, but since the mod's are the ones doing it, might as well. If you simply need to vent, go elsewhere to do so, there are many outlets to do so, at the same time, when you do post normally, you have to admit, you are always keeping at the back of your mind, "well, I can't say that, a moderator doesn't show that conduct" which makes it mucb more restrictive to express yourself as a member. I feel Mike and the rest of you opted to just let loose here, no biggie, if you gotta let loose, might as well do it with me, I know the underlying context and don't take it personally.

Along knowing from the inside, again, been there done that, always keep that in mind, I know there is plenty of dialog going on the rest of us don't see, this is why I posted this publicly rather then privatly.

I refrain from posting specific threads out of respect for the parties involved, if I did so, then that would change this into a negative thread, of which, is meant to be positive.

I'm still at it, going toe to toe with you guys and am still trying to explain my position, where I'm coming from and the fact, I'm trying very hard to keep Mikes original vision in tact, even in spite of the opposition. I stand behind him and WF and most of all, their members.

The gis of what I'm getting here "mods" is that your position is threatened with the power that you hold, it really shouldn't be that way at all, expansion is going to happen, and as I said before, be prepared for it.

FlyingMonkey
10-25-2007, 11:22 AM
Don't keep taking the defensive gentlemen, I very much am thinking of the best interest of WattFlyer at all times, so please keep that in it's context.

You can quote and comment as much as you want and take jabs at me, there really is no reason to do so, yet you insist upon this mob mentality where one person jumps aboard and the others follow.

I feel Mike and the rest of you opted to just let loose here, no biggie, if you gotta let loose, might as well do it with me, I know the underlying context and don't take it personally.

I'm still at it, going toe to toe with you guys and am still trying to explain my position, where I'm coming from and the fact, I'm trying very hard to keep Mikes original vision in tact, even in spite of the opposition. I stand behind him and WF and most of all, their members.

The gis of what I'm getting here "mods" is that your position is threatened with the power that you hold, it really shouldn't be that way at all, expansion is going to happen, and as I said before, be prepared for it.


As a regular member, let me just say stop...

You started off saying that the current mods were inadequate. Suggesting that a new group should be selected from a group of your friends, with you heading it (and yes, I am talking as a friend here...) The very people you listed, have come onboard to say, hey, don't do this, we're happy with the way it is. Had your original mission statement been the full reason for this thread, then it should have ended there.

You obviously seem to have a problem with the way things are run, and in a way, you had the right idea, if you don't like something, don't complain. Do something to change it. It would appear you would have liked people with view points more your own on staff to steer things in a direction you saw fit. Unfortunately, the rest of us are not seeing the problem.

Even as this thread degenerates, the mod problem that you seem to be trying to warn us of, has not shown itself. You appear to be trying to direct this now, in a way as to antagonize the mods into behaving in a way that you could point at, and say, hey, look, I was being rational, and they're attacking me.

You know me, just a regular guy on here, the second one in fact that you listed, after yourself, as a potential new mod. So, you know I am not one to jump on the bandwagon. Are the mod's first crack at a problem always the right one? Not always. But they are people, with lives, jobs and didn't create this place to be police or babysitters. So, they do the best they can. Everything seems to work out in the end.

So, let's put this to rest. It's not heading in a positive direction, and the odds of that happening now, are getting less and less.

We've got a few months left until SEFF 08, and we're going to need the desings for our combat planes finalized, build threads need to be started, poo flinging must be done.... let's get to it.

stinkweed007
10-25-2007, 11:35 AM
Sauce,
You want democracy? your thread has attracted posts you and from 15 fellow users... which strangely looks like the results of the 'for' and 'against' results had this been a poll

not one of the other posters agrees with you.. you say you want to "explain your position" well.. this means that either that aint workin, or we ALL just are not of the same opinion..

I'm still at it, going toe to toe with you guys ..... even in spite of the opposition..

and the comment about what we can and can't say. Listen pal.. it only sounds like you want to pick a fight.. and you have not been toe to toe with anyone. All you have done is ramble on and contradict yourself and receieved the opinions of other users who DONT AGREE! where are you trying to take this?

smokejohnson
10-25-2007, 11:50 AM
Technically following the rules, users can still disrupt things and stay within the confines of the actual parameters.


That's exactly what it looks like you are doing. You're kind of acting like a Troll...I don't get it????



I am proving something in the process as well, I'll fill you in when I deem fit.


So you are just playing a game trying to get a rise out of the Mod's ????


At any time, any of you guys that want to retract what you said, I will not bring it up again, you do have that option


You have the same option ;).




You can quote and comment as much as you want and take jabs at me, there really is no reason to do so, yet you insist upon this mob mentality where one person jumps aboard and the others follow.


????You didn't single out an individual, you insulted all of the Mod's. Of course you're going to get a response out of more than one. ????

Saucerguy2
10-25-2007, 12:07 PM
Thanks stink, you finally get it, you have graduated in my book and now are "real" to me. Relax and be yourself now buddy, time to be just that and not look at the tag or badge.

You all see where I"m headed with this thread??? Stink has always been one I considered as my friend, he dosn't know why, but it's out of respect on my end.

Ready for more hostility, I know you guys have alot to let out, might as well do it here, I hold no ill will to any of you for doing so.

Fred, I again thank you, your words of advice are very sound, I'm taking them to heart on most counts.... still gotta run with my original concept here, I do so for everybodies benefit.

James, don't worry about things here just hang out in the background on this thread, I have something to hammer out, I do NOT take what's said against me personally and consider it more as a test rather then personal attacks. You and I can still remain friends, just as the rest of the people I've met at WF without needing to mess around with this one.

Your concerns are very well noted and apprieciated buddies.

Ribcracker
10-25-2007, 01:16 PM
Someone is taking things way too seriously. Guys...this is just a forum about building and flying planes. Naturally, personalities become shown and known in the process but c'mon, this is not your life! At least, I hope it's not.
Friends? Sure, I guess, in a way. But really, we're just amiccable strangers on the bus. These relationships don't merit the intensity of emotions here.
This is not a soap opera.

Mike Parsons
10-25-2007, 01:54 PM
Brian,
Please do not read any emotion in this final post as there is none. I agree hole heartedly with every post on here with the exception of yours. You are getting this "idea of your chest" and I think you have done so. Unfortunately it seems to have taken the way of trolling and inciting an uprising to which I dont see anyone having a problem but you. Ill address most of what has already been addressed by other members.

WattFlyer is not a co-op. Only one man hold the financial burden of it's success and that is Marc (the owner). He and he alone has the final decision on all things that are implemented or not implemented here. Do we do it blindly? Absolutely not. We listen to the members and what they need or want. However it may or may not get implemented based on factors outside of the visual range of members and at times some staff. Very few other forums can claim to have the ear of the owner and administrator, but that was part of my vision.

Regarding that vision... You have skewed my vision of the staff being one of the guys. What I mean by that is that the staff are not simply hammers that float around waiting for a nail to hit. RCG is a good example of this. They used to have the model that we have set up here and I admired them for it at that time. Moderators that are normal members with the trust of myself and other members to handle situations in the best interest of their peers and the site. There will always be a seperation of members and staff, but by the staff themselves members and not paid moderators, so that line is blurred and offers to diffuse most situations before they become volatile. I fully stand behind the staff and without a doubt we have the best moderators around. Are we perfect? Not even close. However, the staff does the best it can with the information at the time. And decisions are not made by one, but by all the staff. We discuss high impact decisions regarding action that needs to be taken. I highly value their opinion and often bounce things off of them.

Decisions will always be made by the staff or owner and often times with input from the membership. If you want to call that a dictatorship, then by all means label it what you will. But that is the way it will be. Staff will not be appointed or voted in, but it will be choosen on best practices, posting history and general knowledge of the need from volunteering members.

This is a one man crusade. Whether you realize it, your posts are border line insulting and degrading. You have incited a response and are trying to get the staff to respond in a hostile manner. I can not allow a thread to continue that appears to want to incite a negative response.

This will be the final post on this subject. I hope everyone got what they needed off their chest. Of course it will stay intact, however, I can not allow it to continue on the path it is on.