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madmickey
11-28-2005, 12:00 AM
Hi
The one thing that is still putting me off going electric is the safety question. I know Nicads and NiMh are much safer but you lose out on the weight side.
Pictures of burnt out garages give me the willies.
So my question is will LiPo or some other emerging technology ever be reasonably safe?

M

hoppy
11-28-2005, 12:24 AM
Sure, the new cells being used in power tools are safer.
Here is why they are safer- http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories...4934&ran=97724 (http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=94934&ran=97724)

"The technology driving A123 is based on discoveries by MIT professor Yet-Ming Chiang, a materials scientist. Chiang, who co-founded A123, said “research in batteries is very seductive ” because it initially looks easy to boost power, but many variations turn out to shorten battery life or make batteries so unstable that runaway oxidation explosions occur. “They are chemically complex, electrically complex and mechanically complex,” he said. A123 representatives say it coats an aluminum electrode inside the battery with nano-scale particles, a few hundred atoms in size, of lithium metal phosphate. Company representatives decline to disclose more detail, but Chiang says the phosphate is safer than the oxide-based chemistry used in lithium-ion batteries today. He says that when compared with the same weight of larger particles, the nano-scale particles release more ions, freeing electrons to create an electric current. "

hoppy
11-28-2005, 12:27 AM
Sure, the new cells being used in power tools are safer.
Here is why they are safer- http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories...4934&ran=97724 (http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=94934&ran=97724)

"The technology driving A123 is based on discoveries by MIT professor Yet-Ming Chiang, a materials scientist. Chiang, who co-founded A123, said “research in batteries is very seductive ” because it initially looks easy to boost power, but many variations turn out to shorten battery life or make batteries so unstable that runaway oxidation explosions occur. “They are chemically complex, electrically complex and mechanically complex,” he said. A123 representatives say it coats an aluminum electrode inside the battery with nano-scale particles, a few hundred atoms in size, of lithium metal phosphate. Company representatives decline to disclose more detail, but Chiang says the phosphate is safer than the oxide-based chemistry used in lithium-ion batteries today. He says that when compared with the same weight of larger particles, the nano-scale particles release more ions, freeing electrons to create an electric current. "

That technology is used in Milwaukee Power Tools I believe. http://www.molienergy.com/
January 17, 2005 -- E-One Moli Energy (Canada) Ltd. (Molicel®) announces the launch of the industry's highest power lithium-ion cell for high-rate applications. These cells are the energy source for the world's first complete line of lithium-ion cell powered, cordless professional power tools. These 28-volt tools were introduced by Milwaukee Electric Tool Corporation at the International Builder's Show, held January 13 - 16, 2005 in Orlando, Florida. Coming one year after introducing the world's first commercially available 2.4Ah ICR18650 cell, used in laptop computer applications, the IMR26700 3Ah high-rate cell gives Molicel® another key product to expand their market.

Rugar
11-28-2005, 12:41 AM
Hi
The one thing that is still putting me off going electric is the safety question. I know Nicads and NiMh are much safer but you lose out on the weight side.
Pictures of burnt out garages give me the willies.
So my question is will LiPo or some other emerging technology ever be reasonably safe?

M

Is it safe to walk across the street? :eek: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions. Lots of pictures on the news and in the newspapers of people getting hit.

Is it safe to drive a car? :eek: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions. Lots of pictures on the news and in the newspapers of people getting in accidents.

Is it safe to fly your airplane or be around anyone flying theirs? :rolleyes: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions.

Nothing in life is 100% safe, period! Unless maybe you just stay locked up in your house all day. But then it could catch on fire. :rolleyes:

Lipos ARE reasonably safe as along as you take precautions and treat them respect. There are millions of Lipo packs out there being used everyday, yet you only hear about or see pictures of flaming packs every now and then. If Lipo failures were such a epidemic as a lot of non Lipo users thought, you would see this stuff on the evening news.

Bottom line is learn all you can about them, treat them with respect, be prepared for what COULD happen so it does not become a tragic incident, AND HAVE SOME FUN! :D

ForestCam
11-28-2005, 01:18 AM
Sure they're perfectly safe, well untill you add the human element.

fabricator
11-28-2005, 02:10 AM
Shoot I'd sell my soul for another 10 minutes of air time,:p So a few precautions with lipos is a bargain.;)

timocharis
11-28-2005, 05:15 AM
Nothing with that energy density will ever be safe.

Geoff_Gino
11-28-2005, 09:06 AM
Is it safe to walk across the street? :eek: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions. Lots of pictures on the news and in the newspapers of people getting hit.

Is it safe to drive a car? :eek: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions. Lots of pictures on the news and in the newspapers of people getting in accidents.

Is it safe to fly your airplane or be around anyone flying theirs? :rolleyes: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions.

Nothing in life is 100% safe, period! Unless maybe you just stay locked up in your house all day. But then it could catch on fire. :rolleyes:

Lipos ARE reasonably safe as along as you take precautions and treat them respect. There are millions of Lipo packs out there being used everyday, yet you only hear about or see pictures of flaming packs every now and then. If Lipo failures were such a epidemic as a lot of non Lipo users thought, you would see this stuff on the evening news.

Bottom line is learn all you can about them, treat them with respect, be prepared for what COULD happen so it does not become a tragic incident, AND HAVE SOME FUN! :D

This is exactly right!!

qban_flyer
11-28-2005, 10:14 AM
As previous posters have already stated before me, Li-Po packs are safe as long as we handle them with the care and respect they deserve. The same applies to everything R/C related, not just batteries.A spinning propeller can be a dangerous but a useful device needed in our hobby. Been there done that many times myself and I have witnessed what others have gone through as well with them.

Lithium battwery packs should be handled with the same care as we would use a pair of scissors, a knife, a gun and or a car. These are items that are used in our daily lives by most of us. When handled without due respect they can come back and bit us hard, they can even become deadly.

My two cents worth on lithium batery packs.

Bigfoot21075
11-28-2005, 03:43 PM
Buy a good charger, always keep an eye on them while they are charging, never use a damaged pack and they are great. I only fly lipos.

50+AirYears
11-29-2005, 02:32 AM
The safety factor in anything is directly proportional to the care with which it is handled. When the mind is fully engaged, few accidents will happen.
When someone has the attitude that accidents are going to happen no matter what you do, LOTS of accidents happen.
Look at the safety record of the people who actually work ON the high voltage power lines around the world, with Meggavolts running through them.

qban_flyer
11-29-2005, 03:33 AM
Look at the safety record of the people who actually work ON the high voltage power lines around the world, with Meggavolts running through them.
Good point. Not only megavolts but what about the ones thant in addition to working with high voltage lines, do so after climbing up those towers to effect check ups and or repairs. Their accident rate is low because they are careful.

batman
11-29-2005, 05:13 AM
The new Li-Ion cells that are coming out in power tools are the next cell for RC. Much safer than li-Poly and better performance than Nixx and Li-Po.

qban_flyer
11-29-2005, 11:13 AM
The new Li-Ion cells that are coming out in power tools are the next cell for RC. Much safer than li-Poly and better performance than Nixx and Li-Po.

That's very welcomed news. :)

hoppy
11-29-2005, 01:55 PM
See posts #2 and #3

Matt Kirsch
11-29-2005, 02:56 PM
I think there may be some misunderstanding of terms here. What we call "Lithium Polymer" or LiPoly, is actually Lithium-Ion technology. The terms Ion and Polymer are used in R/C to differentiate between the metal can and vacuum-sealed plastic packaging, respectively. While I cannot say with much authority, it is my belief that when you hear about advances in Lithium-Ion technology outside the R/C world, they're actually talking about what we would call Lithium Polymer.

qban_flyer
11-29-2005, 05:21 PM
While I cannot say with much authority, it is my belief that when you hear about advances in Lithium-Ion technology outside the R/C world, they're actually talking about what we would call Lithium Polymer.

So in other words, we R/Cers could be well ahead of the rest in this "new" technology. :)

hoppy
11-29-2005, 05:36 PM
No, I would say the power tool industry is driving the technology.

rcers
11-29-2005, 05:41 PM
No, I would say the power tool industry is driving the technology.

Yep....we are a pittance compared to "other" uses. Can you image how many cells Nokia buys every year?

Mike

50+AirYears
11-29-2005, 05:43 PM
I seem to recall getting some info from Moli Energy about their Li ion technology back about 91 or 92. We do probably lead in using the more vulnerable soft pack for our cells, but the chemical technology has been in use a lot longer. In fact, I Or'ed a Li Ion button cell on a board as part of a RAM back-up on a development project about 1988. On the one board we still have in archive, the cell is still holding just slightly over 2.85 Volts on the 27C64 bus.

electriconly
11-29-2005, 10:43 PM
Oh, I think we lead the industry in a few ways:

1.) Using discharge rates way beyond original design.
2.) Not using any protective circuitry during discharge.
3.) Not using any protective circuitry during charge.
4.) Not using a dedicated charger specific to the battery pack.

Now what is the title of this thread?

50+AirYears
11-29-2005, 11:39 PM
As most things in life, they are neither safe nor unsafe. That depends almost entirely on the user.

qban_flyer
11-30-2005, 02:02 AM
Oh, I think we lead the industry in a few ways:

1.) Using discharge rates way beyond original design.
2.) Not using any protective circuitry during discharge.
3.) Not using any protective circuitry during charge.
4.) Not using a dedicated charger specific to the battery pack.

Now what is the title of this thread?

Will LiPo ever be safe? That's the title. :)

They will be as safe as the end user may wish it to be.

They are as safe as the last link in the chain, the human one, the one that pushes the charge button. Checking all the settings three times before pushing the button, and being extra careful will reduce the danger, not eliminate it. :eek:

ragbag
11-30-2005, 03:20 AM
You have never seen an explosion like the one Bell South had. A battery supplier that furnished them 12 volt batteries to power the field units when the service went down sent a battery pack that had six cells that were under 90# of pressure in each metal cell. Similar to a Lion cell.
With thermal runaway the cells got hot and all thirty or fourty of them vented and went off.

Blew the metal doors off the cabinet and wrapped them around the telephone pole several feet away. The employee had opened the doors on one side of the cabinet and went to call in on the radio when it blew.

Even when we have all the safety devices that we have, if you don't use them you pay the price.

Seat belts are a good point. If you don't follow the guide lines you pay the price.

Qban Flyer said it all.

By George:)

savydad
11-30-2005, 07:58 PM
IMHO, the only risk with anything dangerous is the human side...if the human is responsible and respectful, the end result is good. This goes for anything potentially dangerous, not just lipos, like others have mentioned, cars and guns are just as or more dangerous.

Todd

50+AirYears
11-30-2005, 08:44 PM
LiPos are inert and safe until some human starts to use them. If the person understands that accidents do not just happen, but are caused by carelessness, there is very little chance of anything undesired happening. If the person has the stupid attitude that accidents just happen, and can't be prevented, something bad will eventually happen. And the worst will be caused by the people with the "Nobody is going to tell me what to do!" attitude.
For example, the brother of a friend of mine who taught some of us to shoot never had a gun accident himself, nor to the best of my knowledge did anybody he taught to shoot. His first lesson he gave was that no gun is ever empty until you check the magazine and action yourself at least twice. When you went out shooting with him, you never let the muzzle point towards yourself or anybody else. If he saw you get careless, he let you kiss the but of his gun. Hard! Guns, cars and stuff don't cause accidents. Accidents are only caused by someone's stupidity!

qban_flyer
12-01-2005, 06:32 AM
LiPos are inert and safe until some human starts to use them. If the person understands that accidents do not just happen, but are caused by carelessness, there is very little chance of anything undesired happening. If the person has the stupid attitude that accidents just happen, and can't be prevented, something bad will eventually happen. And the worst will be caused by the people with the "Nobody is going to tell me what to do!" attitude.
For example, the brother of a friend of mine who taught some of us to shoot never had a gun accident himself, nor to the best of my knowledge did anybody he taught to shoot. His first lesson he gave was that no gun is ever empty until you check the magazine and action yourself at least twice. When you went out shooting with him, you never let the muzzle point towards yourself or anybody else. If he saw you get careless, he let you kiss the but of his gun. Hard! Guns, cars and stuff don't cause accidents. Accidents are only caused by someone's stupidity!
So well put!

My feelings mirror yours 100% exactly. Not many take responsibility for their actions anymore. Thankfully, most in the R/C world heed the warnings given by manufacturers on how to handle their wares.

Accidents just don't happen, they are caused by absent mindedness and careleness, or as you put it, stupidity!

ragbag
12-02-2005, 12:11 PM
Fortunately the lawyers haven't found us yet.
They would have our suburbans replaced and our garages repaired. Then the legislators and insurance companies would start working on the problems followed by a million mom march.

At my age I probably won't be around then. At least I hope so.

I still feel responsible for my own action and think the lipos are very safe. I follow the rules and guide lines.
By George

qban_flyer
12-02-2005, 01:54 PM
Fortunately the lawyers haven't found us yet.
They would have our suburbans replaced and our garages repaired. Then the legislators and insurance companies would start working on the problems followed by a million mom march.

At my age I probably won't be around then. At least I hope so.

I still feel responsible for my own action and think the lipos are very safe. I follow the rules and guide lines.
By George

I agree with you 100% also. Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. Cars don't cause accidents, careless drivers do. I could go on forever, but won't.

Li-Pos are as safe as the guy operating the devices. In the hands of an nincompoop, they can be as lethal as a Tommy gun, a car and or a knife. :o

ragbag
12-02-2005, 02:14 PM
Yup, some people can pull the guts out of an anvil.:rolleyes:

By George

fabricator
12-02-2005, 11:27 PM
Yup, some people can pull the guts out of an anvil.:rolleyes:

By George

Uh..........you wouldnt know how to get the guts back in my............er.......an anvil would you?

Rittenflyer
12-03-2005, 07:25 PM
Is it safe to walk across the street? :eek: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions. Lots of pictures on the news and in the newspapers of people getting hit.

Is it safe to drive a car? :eek: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions. Lots of pictures on the news and in the newspapers of people getting in accidents.

Is it safe to fly your airplane or be around anyone flying theirs? :rolleyes: Its reasonably safe if you take precautions.

Nothing in life is 100% safe, period! Unless maybe you just stay locked up in your house all day. But then it could catch on fire. :rolleyes:

Lipos ARE reasonably safe as along as you take precautions and treat them respect. There are millions of Lipo packs out there being used everyday, yet you only hear about or see pictures of flaming packs every now and then. If Lipo failures were such a epidemic as a lot of non Lipo users thought, you would see this stuff on the evening news.

Bottom line is learn all you can about them, treat them with respect, be prepared for what COULD happen so it does not become a tragic incident, AND HAVE SOME FUN! :D

Amen. These aren't hand grenades, after all. I've never been a gasser but I believe that stuff (nitro fuel) is pretty flammable too. :eek:

qban_flyer
12-04-2005, 01:35 AM
Amen. These aren't hand grenades, after all. I've never been a gasser but I believe that stuff (nitro fuel) is pretty flammable too. :eek:

One thing no one has bothered to mention when it comes to unsafe devices is model turbine engines. Has anyone here witnessed the routine turbine jet flyers have to go through before they can fly their planes just to make sure they don't blow up in their faces?

They have to have a fire extinguisher next to them all the time "just in case" the thing blows on start up! What about the smashing way they go up in flames when they crash, mushroom cloud and all?

Anyone wants to talk about unsafe models? Turbine equipped ones are as unsafe as they get, yet they keep flying them. :rolleyes:

There will always remain the possibility of Li-Pos going haywire, but we can go a long ways in minimizing the risks involved. Notning in life is 100% safe, so let's stop the senseless Li-Po bashing.

LECTROFLYER
12-04-2005, 02:03 AM
Ive had a 3s that seemed to ballon/heat up or whatever and everyones tellin me to dump X $$$ down the toilet its no good, I cant see it and have continued using this bat. for several days with no problems. from what Ive been reading about 85% of these things goin off are "human error, better known as "lack of common sense. "inattention-- wrong rate-- and to make matters worse charging indoors when we all know thier basically unpredictable. this bat. has continued to charge at 12.5V and has not dischrged below 9 but does continue to live in a barbque. its charged outdoors, transported in a ammo can takin out to fly, back in the can and resides in the barbque till the next session all with much caution. ya gota start to wonder is the wieght reduction all worth it??????

fabricator
12-04-2005, 02:33 AM
One thing no one has bothered to mention when it comes to unsafe devices is model turbine engines. Has anyone here witnessed the routine turbine jet flyers have to go through before they can fly their planes just to make sure they don't blow up in their faces?

They have to have a fire extinguisher next to them all the time "just in case" the thing blows on start up! What about the smashing way they go up in flames when they crash, mushroom cloud and all?

Anyone wants to talk about unsafe models? Turbine equipped ones are as unsafe as they get, yet they keep flying them. :rolleyes:

There will always remain the possibility of Li-Pos going haywire, but we can go a long ways in minimizing the risks involved. Notning in life is 100% safe, so let's stop the senseless Li-Po bashing.

Heh, I was in one of the LHS's a few weeks back and a guy brought in large electric ducted fan turbine that had come apart and large chunks of the housing were missing, he said several pieces had barely missed him and his buddies, he said it was because something was out of balance.:eek:

LECTROFLYER
12-04-2005, 03:13 AM
yep, walkin across the street can kill ya if your not paying attention, most incidents if not all are cause by "lack of common sense.take a look at auto smash ups, a big percent is caused by "heres that word again>>>>>>>>>>human error.........stay alert and stay alive!!!!!

Matt Kirsch
12-04-2005, 04:54 AM
Ive had a 3s that seemed to ballon/heat up or whatever and everyones tellin me to dump X $$$ down the toilet its no good, I cant see it and have continued using this bat. for several days with no problems. from what Ive been reading about 85% of these things goin off are "human error, better known as "lack of common sense. "inattention-- wrong rate-- and to make matters worse charging indoors when we all know thier basically unpredictable. this bat. has continued to charge at 12.5V and has not dischrged below 9 but does continue to live in a barbque. its charged outdoors, transported in a ammo can takin out to fly, back in the can and resides in the barbque till the next session all with much caution. ya gota start to wonder is the wieght reduction all worth it??????

What caused yours to heat up and balloon?

Just to be clear, the battery isn't rendered inert, devoid of charge, when it balloons. The battery will continue to take a charge and will contine to provide power to the best of its ability. It is, however, severely damaged. To draw a rather morbid analogy, you don't die immediately if you're bitten by a rattlesnake, do you? Nope, and in fact you may be able to continue with your activity for a while, but the fact of the matter is you're poisoned and you're going to get weaker and weaker until you eventually die.

Well, your battery's been bit by a rattlesnake, and unfortunately, there's no antidote in this case... You'll notice the battery's performance degrade quickly over the next few flights. On top of that, you're now living in fear of the battery, keeping it in a makeshift "bomb containment unit" and transporting it under "armed guard." THAT is why we always recommend that when a pack balloons, dispose of it properly.

LECTROFLYER
12-04-2005, 08:48 AM
wouldnt it be a revalation if this pack lived out its life instead of " oh my god my shop burned down or "the stinkin pack caught on fire in my model and burned up or " I was carrying the pack and it went off.the list goes on/on ,what if what if, all do respect for those incured damage,So using the word "what if>>>>>>>>>>what if this pack lived out its life??? seems like when someone throws a monkey wrench into the oppisite of a disaster story your frowned upon, sorry but I cant buy into it. I totally agree its a crime to always safe guard these kinds of things but need to dig a little deeper for more facts

qban_flyer
12-04-2005, 04:40 PM
Ive had a 3s that seemed to ballon/heat up or whatever and everyones tellin me to dump X $$$ down the toilet its no good, I cant see it and have continued using this bat.

Lectro, we would still like to know what caused yours to overheat to the point of ballooning watermellon like? :confused:

hoppy
12-04-2005, 06:07 PM
[quote=LECTROFLYER;26245]wouldnt it be a revalation if this pack lived out its life instead of " oh my god my shop burned down or "the stinkin pack caught on fire in my model and burned up or " I was carrying the pack and it went off.the list goes on/on ,what if what if, all do respect for those incured damage,So using the word "what if>>>>>>>>>>what if this pack lived out its life??? /quote]

OK, I'll bite, so what if it does live out its life? Would that change the fact that a number of ballooned packs have gone up in flames while being charged? Are you saying you don't agree with warning modelers of the potential danger? I'm missing the point of your message.

Have you monitored the capacity after each charge? The temperature? The individual cell voltages?

LECTROFLYER
12-04-2005, 07:20 PM
sorry about that lack on info. got too many threads goin on..... over a week ago I decided to keep this pack goin and have used it since then, meaning every day for a week.the pack has always charged to 12.5 and never discharged under 9, a volt meter was used. I suspect the pack over heated from overflying, but still it read around 9V when done. you say have I checked cell V ?? being it doesnt have a tap I cant very well cut into the pack to check, so thats definitly out unless thiers another way? I also have no doubt and read lotta horror storys about these things goin off! thats other peoples storys and I dont doubt it one bit! the bottom line here is this pack keeps goin, so for now that should speak for itself, so wether it takes a dump or it doesnt youll be the 1st to know, then yall can say WE TOLD YA SO. but until that event the days go by and the pack keeps goin

hoppy
12-04-2005, 09:57 PM
The reason I asked you those questions is to add to the data base. Previous users have reported an ever increasing loss in capacity of the ballooned cell which causes a greater voltage inbalance which causes additional pack damage and possibly a temperature rise.

qban_flyer
12-04-2005, 11:16 PM
I suspect the pack over heated from overflying, but still it read around 9V when done.

Forgive my ignorance, but could you tell me just what do you mean by "overflying" the pack? :confused:

qban_flyer
12-04-2005, 11:24 PM
Heh, I was in one of the LHS's a few weeks back and a guy brought in large electric ducted fan turbine that had come apart and large chunks of the housing were missing, he said several pieces had barely missed him and his buddies, he said it was because something was out of balance.:eek:

Glad you have mentioned your experience. I have seen it happen in flight and the following crash was just as spectacular as if it had been a full sized plane crashing.

Looks like in the case you mention, the containment shroud didn't even contain the flying debris. Interesting how some blame the failed "unit" after a mishap. Don't you think it was incumbent on him to check the fan assembly for proper balance before operating it? :confused:

rocket_jim
12-04-2005, 11:29 PM
I personally have seen one LiPo pack that ballooned on charging. Not exactly sure why it happened.

When in my LHS today the guy there was telling a customer that they had no local reports of any LiPo problems at all. I believe him, but I guess he has not seen this particular "sausaged" pack.

fabricator
12-04-2005, 11:30 PM
Glad you have mentioned your experience. I have seen it happen in flight and the following crash was just as spectacular as if it had been a full sized plane crashing.

Looks like in the case you mention, the containment shroud didn't even contain the flying debris. Interesting how some blame the failed "unit" after a mishap. Don't you think it was incumbent on him to check the fan assembly for proper balance before operating it? :confused:

Heh, the exact words out of his mouth were "It was all my fault, I replaced the fan and never checked it for balance" You are right though whenever anything happens now days it has to be someone elses fault.

LECTROFLYER
12-04-2005, 11:44 PM
qban>>>>>>>>> think I need to get this straight, the pack over heated in the model cause I was at wot too long and probibly poor circulation>>>>>>>>hoppy, glad to ablige

qban_flyer
12-04-2005, 11:47 PM
You are right though whenever anything happens now days it has to be someone elses fault.

AH! The famous modern "don't blame me" syndrome quite a few now suffer from. At least that man assumed responsibility for his mistake.

A friend of mine was flying his 40% gasser when all of a sudden it went into a spiral death dive on its fourth flight. Before we even began to walk to the crash site, he blamed the crash on "interference" of one type or another.

When we reached the totalled model, we just "happened" to find that he had failed to use Locktite on the nuts that secured the turnbuckles against the clevises on both the rudder and elevator. The one on the rudder had come off in flight due to vibration. The rudder being a balanced type locked itself hard left thereby causing the plane to become uncontrollable.

YUP! Something interfered with his though processes causing him to bypass the all important model "ground check" before a maiden flight. :o

qban_flyer
12-04-2005, 11:51 PM
qban>>>>>>>>> think I need to get this straight, the pack over heated in the model cause I was at wot too long and probibly poor circulation>>>>>>>>

Thanks for the clarification Lectro.

LECTROFLYER
12-05-2005, 12:23 AM
glad to answer, back to the "lipo caution>>>>>>>>just flew the pack again today with no problem, same charge V and same discharge V, could be I have freak pack, these kinda things dont bother me too much :cool:

hoppy
12-05-2005, 12:41 AM
Charge and discharge voltages will always be the same if flying to LVC and using a CC/CV lipo charger.
It's the voltages of the individual cells that matters...the total will always be ~12.6V but one cell might be 3.5V and one might be 4.2V and the 3rd could be 4.9V. The 3.5V cell will be driven into undervoltage during discharge and the 4.9V cell will be overcharged during charging. That's why it's important to know the individual cell voltages.

These problems will also show up in the mah capacity of the pack.
Does your charger show mah in?

fabricator
12-05-2005, 01:52 AM
Charge and discharge voltages will always be the same if flying to LVC and using a CC/CV lipo charger.
It's the voltages of the individual cells that matters...the total will always be ~12.6V but one cell might be 3.5V and one might be 4.2V and the 3rd could be 4.9V. The 3.5V cell will be driven into undervoltage during discharge and the 4.9V cell will be overcharged during charging. That's why it's important to know the individual cell voltages.

These problems will also show up in the mah capacity of the pack.
Does your charger show mah in?

Yeah mine does, but what is the best way to measure individual cells, my packs are all 11.1's do I have to cut the shrink wrap up to test the individual cells?

hoppy
12-05-2005, 02:26 AM
That's the only way - If you decide to do that, be very careful as it is easy to puncture a cell or short out a cell with the cutting tool. Either of these actions could cause pack damage or in the worse case, cell ignition. Some have a pc board for the interconnects, some use wires between the cells and others just solder the tabs together.

LECTROFLYER
12-05-2005, 02:26 AM
like I said this pack isnt tapped so Im only going by total Volts, in otherwords thiers no way to get at the terminals but ya gotta good point ! fabricator>>>>>>its ok to remove the shrink wrap just dont punture the cell wrap or your gonna be SOL

ragbag
12-05-2005, 02:33 AM
Putting taps on a 3 cell pack can be done and is the only way to keep testing it without opening it each time it needs tested.

A slip with the razor blade or a drop of solder in the wrong place and you have A HARD SHORT. That is when it gets hairy, a shorted lipo can catch on fire.

Or just costly because you just ruined a perfectly good lipo.

It might not be something you would want to try. I don't know you and can't judge your capabilities.

But it can be done, our mentor has had us doing this for a while and proved that it was an asset, keeping the cells balanced.

The new product that is on the market,with built in taps, is the end product of this type of testing.

By George

fabricator
12-05-2005, 02:39 AM
I have no problem with things that go boom, I shoot handguns competitively and reload all my own ammo:D Anyway, on a typical folded pack are the connections on the short ends where the wires stick out?

cyclops2
12-05-2005, 04:16 AM
It will be interesting to see how many people modify or remove the safety circuits on the battery packs to drain more than the rated current. You can't help those that do not want help. But you could ban them from ANY AMA insured fields if the try to fly a modifyed pack and put other people and property at risk.

cyclops2
12-05-2005, 04:24 AM
As to the multi packs. You can + _ + _ + _ 3 cells your self. Then write on them the date and voltage each had new. It will let you know when one is going to die ahead of time. Or try to touch it up on charge.

ragbag
12-05-2005, 11:47 AM
When yo write on the cell you can damge it internaly, the foil cover doesn't protectthe boards inside from pressure of ballpoint pens and such.

Wrtite on a label and add it to the packs.

Don't ask how I know this please.;)

By George

ragbag
12-05-2005, 11:48 AM
When you write on the cell you can damge it internaly, the foil cover doesn't protect the boards inside from pressure of ballpoint pens and such.

Write on a label and add it to the packs.

Don't ask how I know this please.;)

By George

Bigfoot21075
12-05-2005, 01:32 PM
When you write on the cell you can damge it internaly, the foil cover doesn't protect the boards inside from pressure of ballpoint pens and such.

Write on a label and add it to the packs.

Don't ask how I know this please.;)

By George
You could always use a sharpie or other magic maker.... But what a hard way to learn that lesson!!

I have yet to balance a pack and so far so good. I have Thunder power, Apogee, and some 20c. IU suppose I should invest in a balancer as each one has the extra connector. The problem is the different packs all have different connectors..... It will be nice when they finally standardize.

qban_flyer
12-05-2005, 02:11 PM
It will be nice when they finally standardize.

I wouldn't bet on that happening anytime soon, if ever! :eek:

LECTROFLYER
12-05-2005, 04:57 PM
thats what hacks me off when these outfits start coming up with all these add-ons to check this and check that!!! each to his own but geeez what happened to the simpliscity of acid pax, ya buy one good charger and a few nima pax "1/2 the price of lipos" treatem right and your done. I can see lipos for some applications but not all.....again this is just one mans opinion :rolleyes:

qban_flyer
12-05-2005, 08:57 PM
thats what hacks me off when these outfits start coming up with all these add-ons to check this and check that!!!

Could I be wrong in guessing that's how they make their money? :D :D :D

Dereck
12-05-2005, 09:03 PM
thats what hacks me off when these outfits start coming up with all these add-ons to check this and check that!!! each to his own but geeez what happened to the simpliscity of acid pax, ya buy one good charger and a few nima pax "1/2 the price of lipos" treatem right and your done. I can see lipos for some applications but not all.....again this is just one mans opinion :rolleyes:

Could I have a translation of this into English please - I would like the chance to appreciate the point

Regards

Dereck

qban_flyer
12-05-2005, 09:08 PM
Could I have a translation of this into English please - I would like the chance to appreciate the point

Regards

Dereck

Let me try my hand a this:

1- Add-Ons for Li-Pos = Balancers
2- Simplicity = I'm sticking with NiCads and NIMH @ half the cost, though he failed to mention that while they are cheaper, they also are three times the weight!
3- I am clueless as to the "acid pax" reference, though. :D

ForestCam
12-05-2005, 10:37 PM
You could always use a sharpie or other magic maker.... But what a hard way to learn that lesson!!
I always number my packs to keep them straight as far as which one was used and in what order. I've found that a Sharpie marker wears off the heat shrink rather quickly.

cyclops2
12-05-2005, 11:42 PM
Acid paks are, lead acid batteries. They are the best for windy days.

rclark
12-06-2005, 12:12 AM
I've found that a Sharpie marker wears off the heat shrink rather quickly. Just put a piece of clear tape over your markings ;) . Works for me.... I put the date and a pack number on each new pack I buy.

thats what hacks me off when these outfits start coming up with all these add-ons to check this and check that ... Kind of funny, since there are quite of few of us that fly LiPo that don't use balancers and taps and all the other 'stuff' . Most of my packs don't even have taps. The one's that do, the taps seem to be nuicence catching on this or that when moved around .... So far the batteries have worked just fine over the years (imagine that :rolleyes: ) .... Just charge the packs an' go fly much like my NiMh and NiCd packs. Really I think the 'safety' issue is way over blown ... But that's one man's opinion :o ....

qban_flyer
12-06-2005, 12:37 AM
I write the capacity in milliamps and voltage on the face of the pack with a permanent bold marker. They are also numbered in Roman numerals to identify which ones are being used at the field on a given day, and therefore need to be charged again. When the ink has dried I cover the entire writing with a piece of wide packing clear tape as it will prevent the writing from rubbing off.

One more thing I do Li-Po wise. I place the batteries that have been used at the field on a separate container. I never mix them with unused packs. So far I haven't had any problems, though I also check the charger settings three (3) times against the battery pack specs. before I hit the CHARGE BUTTON. :)

PS: Only five of my Li-Po packs came with "balancing" connectors. The rest do not have them. Will I mess with them to be able to check individual cell voltage? Absolutely NOT!

qban_flyer
12-06-2005, 12:42 AM
Acid paks are, lead acid batteries. They are the best for windy days.

HMMM!!!

I think I'll buy me a couple of them at my favorite auto shop for those windy days when my planes need extra 'penetration' power. :D

LECTROFLYER
12-06-2005, 12:58 AM
no harm intended guys,as I already said that was just IMO:cool: and yes I do believe this lipo damage thing is getting outta hand and am proving it every time I use this pack "per my post above.but one thing I wouldnt mind having is a wattmeter which would seem very practicle.....acid pax are great for some applications not to mention ya dont have to worry about'em goin crazy on ya. then again some guys like lipos, just a matter of what worx best for ya. I fly small sp400 pylon models and use 8x1200 acid pax, to tell ya the truth I cant tell the diffrence cause its goin so fast....o

Rugar
12-06-2005, 01:01 AM
One more thing I do Li-Po wise. I place the batteries that have been used at the field on a separate container. I never mix them with unused packs.

I put a rubber band around my packs after charging. When it goes in the plane the rubber band is removed. Its a quick easy way to tell between charged and uncharged packs. But I always put a watt meter on the packs to check voltage before placing in the plane or on the charger to make sure.

Rugar
12-06-2005, 01:02 AM
no harm intended guys,as I already said that was just IMO:cool: and yes I do believe this lipo damage thing is getting outta hand and am proving it every time I use this pack "per my post above.but one thing I wouldnt mind having is a wattmeter which would seem very practicle.....o

A watt meter is a MUST IMO if your flying electrics with ANY type of battery.

qban_flyer
12-06-2005, 02:27 AM
I put a rubber band around my packs after charging. When it goes in the plane the rubber band is removed. Its a quick easy way to tell between charged and uncharged packs. But I always put a watt meter on the packs to check voltage before placing in the plane or on the charger to make sure.

A WattMeter is one of the first things I bought when I went electric. It's the only sensible way to check what the entire plane's power system is doing accurately. :)

Rugar
12-06-2005, 03:32 AM
A WattMeter is one of the first things I bought when I went electric. It's the only sensible way to check what the entire plane's power system is doing accurately. :)

Watt? I didn't hear you. :D

rclark
12-06-2005, 05:47 AM
I agree. A watt meter is almost a must have if you stay with EP. That and a Tach you can pretty much know how your model is going to fly before it even leaves the ground.... If your charger doesn't have a display you can use the watt meter to tell you how much you put back into the pack too. Handy with figuring out max flight times. I time all my flights so rarely go to LVC.

Dereck
12-06-2005, 07:07 PM
Can't see what this has to do with 'firestarters', but I have to concur that a countdown timer is essential to e-flight of the type where it soon gets boring if the prop stops spinning.

Let's add "or gets too exciting" to 'boring' - lose power with a hefty aerobatic model low, slow and travelling downwind and you'll find out what I mean :eek:

Radio Shack used to sell one that works fine. It has big numbers, is simple to operate and loudly announces minutes to go, then 10 second intervals to go in the last minute. For one minute after zero, it makes a funny noise (selectable, if that does it for you, but no quirly ringtones yet, for the phone-hooked ;) ) every second for a minute. If you persist, it then announces every extra minute over. I've heard of a website that sells only talking times too.

If you fly sports type models, especially ones that glide like manhole covers, you really need one of these widgets.

D

LECTROFLYER
12-15-2005, 05:34 PM
this is re the lipo that balloned and everyone said to throw it in the round file,well going on 3 weeks of usage and thier still goin strong, hoppy ya might wanna put this in the archives BTW you can darn well believe this pack lives in a metal container outside!

cyclops2
12-16-2005, 07:11 PM
First lets set the record straight about OUR poly packs. Putting that amount of energy density in a PLASTIC bag is premediated criminal intent to endanger the public. These same dirt bag companies would put PLASTIC GAS TANK bags under cars and tell you to be more carefull of explosions , spills, you name it.
And a couple of power crazies would jump up yelling, " RIGHT ON DADDY".
Nicads saw the dangers. Nimh saw the dangers. All are METAL CELLS.
Who the hell gave these butchers the right to build dirt bag cheap and risk injury?????
We need a few good tv lawyers to shut this cra# down!!
And I am the PIT BULL to do it.
Knockoff the, " it's safe as other battery types". IT IS NOT. Or are you too stupid to see that, just so you can fly longer ??

Rugar
12-16-2005, 07:24 PM
First lets set the record straight about OUR poly packs. Putting that amount of energy density in a PLASTIC bag is premediated criminal intent to endanger the public. These same dirt bag companies would put PLASTIC GAS TANK bags under cars and tell you to be more carefull of explosions , spills, you name it.
And a couple of power crazies would jump up yelling, " RIGHT ON DADDY".
Nicads saw the dangers. Nimh saw the dangers. All are METAL CELLS.
Who the hell gave these butchers the right to build dirt bag cheap and risk injury?????
We need a few good tv lawyers to shut this cra# down!!
And I am the PIT BULL to do it.
Knockoff the, " it's safe as other battery types". IT IS NOT. Or are you too stupid to see that, just so you can fly longer ??

:rolleyes:

TRASHBUG
12-16-2005, 09:55 PM
Wow! Sounds like someones having a bad hair day. Lipos are as safe/unsafe as the person using them........sort of like guns, cars, boats, model airplanes etc.............although I don't think anyone has been killed by a lipo.......yet:)

Bob_CO
12-16-2005, 11:39 PM
These would be the same cells in your cell phone, laptop etc. They are as safe as you want them to be or as dangerous as you allow them to be.

Wow Cylops.... do we really need lawyers or are we not grown up enough to deal with batteries. They ARE as safe as the ones in your cell phone and laptop. The difference is it is much more difficult to incorrectly charge those.

I'd be willing to bet more folks die or are injured from faulty maintenance on vehicles than have ever been hurt with "our" cells. I hear chainsaws, tablesaws, nailguns are dangerous too. My point is there are many things that we use everyday that can be dangerous. These items demand that we know what we are doing, that we use them properly and that respect them. Those that don't get "burned".

LECTROFLYER
12-17-2005, 01:32 AM
from what Ive been reading I think everybody has a point here,but have to disagree about lipo bashing, its just like the news on TV, the stinkin media gives out a scare and everyone goes nuts "trickle effect........hence>>>>>no news is good news.................same with the model web sites, its printed and everyone reacts, the bottom line here applys to everything>>>>IF YA DONT HAVE COMMON SENSE THEN YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS OWNING THESE PAX..... in other words, it isnt the alcohol that killed the pedestrin but the intoxicated individual behind the wheel.... harsh but true!! and believe the majority here have the same opinion

rclark
12-17-2005, 07:33 AM
There's always someone :rolleyes: ... Troll? But coming from liberal Jersey which has strict 'gun control' too .... I guess it could be expected.... Might hurt someone, so outlaw them (or call a lawyer) for everyone is the motto of the day for these people :o . IMO, if you feel it's to dangerous ... then don't use 'em, but don't tell others they CAN'T use them ....


LiPo ... Respect them, use them .... No problem ....

And then take personal responsibility for your own actions .... Ie. Don't blame the LiPo manufacture, Cig Manufacturer, Gun Manufacture .... Fireworks, ... etc..... and as stated above, use the common sense God gave most of us ....

timocharis
12-17-2005, 07:58 AM
Am I incorrect in my perception that the Lithium Ion batteries were more volatile than the Lithium Polymer variant? That's the story I got anyway. I haven't actually blown up either type, so I have no personal point of comparison.


Dave

cyclops2
12-17-2005, 05:06 PM
You are absolutly right , Tim. I guess that is why all responsible brand tool companies are switching to it?

cyclops2
12-17-2005, 05:17 PM
The big difference between Rc lipo and telephone LIPO is the package they come in and the charger that can be used to charge it.
There is ONLY 1 set up that comes as a consumer user setup.
R C lets any power nut do whatever he feels like to get a sale at any risk to any one.
Do you think every one should be allowed to buy any thing made in the world if they want it? Sure sounds like it. Bless you.

johnarbo
12-17-2005, 08:54 PM
Well, probably not since nothing is (perfectly) safe.
I've been flying with LiPo cells for three years with no problems. Even my tests by charging with a NiCd charger at 10 times the recommended rate caused only swelling of the cell and no fire or explosion. Cutting into two pieces with a lopping shears did not result in a fire either.
Given that, I have seen a video of a pack exploding and catching fire when subjected to incredibly an high charge rate. I also have received a couple packs that had swollen cells and were being discarded. The salvaged "good" cells appear to work perfectly. I don't know why an occasional cell in a pack will puff up like that with no aparent provocation. It MIGHT be some undetecetable flaw in production but, from my personal experience, has happened in much less than one percent of the cells I've seen in use.
I do believe that balancing the cells is becoming more important with the larger ones that are subjected to fairly high currents. The 2250 mah cells that I have, which are expected to experience currents in the 25 to 30 amp range, were ordered with taps installed. When I checked originally there was as much as 0.05 volts difference between the cells. After they were charged separately one time, susbsequent checks have been within 0.01 volt. Is that significant? I don't know but there is a fairly substatial investment to guard.
A couple small (110 mah) cells from my small indoor RC planes have puffed up, possibly from being discharged to too low a point. These act funny in that they will take essentially a full charge (about 100 mah) but on discharge reach the recommend cut off after only about 5 mah. Frankly as long as a cell gives satisfactory performance, I'd use it.
I do wonder a bit about the people who recommend charging and keeping your cells in a metal tray. Personally I use a Pyrex dish. I have heard anecdotes of fires starting when a NiCad pack shorted out against a metal gasoline can in someone's flight box. Well, to each his own.
I've been flying electric powered aircraft since 1979. I presently use brushless motors and LiPo cells. I'm not going back. The performance increase over brushed motors and NiCads is striking.

ragbag
12-17-2005, 10:15 PM
First lets set the record straight about OUR poly packs. Putting that amount of energy density in a PLASTIC bag is premediated criminal intent to endanger the public. These same dirt bag companies would put PLASTIC GAS TANK bags under cars and tell you to be more carefull of explosions , spills, you name it.

If you don't want to use the bag batteries use the lion's they come in a can.

No one wants the weight of the can.

They are giving the public what they want.

If you don't buy them, they don't have a market. No market they would soon quit.

It is still the end user that starts the fires with the misshandling of what has a potential of starting a fire. The dirt bags that give you the highend autos kill people every day, when they are ejected from their cars in rollover crashes and ejected from the car.

NO SEAT BELTS WERE USED AND ALCOHOL RELATED


Let the bulldog start on them also, they are driving on the roads and endangering the kids and other family members on the highways.

GO GET THEM!!!!!!

By George:rolleyes:

cyclops2
12-18-2005, 05:13 PM
Much like the Pinto gas tanks exploding on rear end collisions.
Pick up trucks with unprotected side fuel tanks.
Ford Explorer roll overs due to over loaded tires.
Not allowing the automatic deployment of air bags by installing a manual switch.
Ford police cruisers having their gas tanks explode when struck from behind.

------------------------Sloppy, drunking drivers ???
-------------------------Tell that to the families.

ragbag
12-18-2005, 05:17 PM
You forgot to tell the families about the seat belts.
BY George

cyclops2
12-18-2005, 05:28 PM
I really have no beef with dangerous products for use by speed or power crazy nuts.
As LONG as the general buying public CAN NOT get their hands on them. They buy a battery, it is just another battery.
A lot of us all know that we will have one swell up and become a grenade, waiting to decide when it wants to go off.
They have a mind of their own.
To the public, Lipos are just stronger flashlight batteries in a soft wrapper.
That is their total interest in them.
Can you honest say the soft body LIPOS should be bought on line, by any body who can not read English?
There is NO one driving the LIPO bus down the road.

cyclops2
12-18-2005, 05:39 PM
I could not think of how to handle this LIPO safety end of it until now.
Simple!
Use the same system as the MODEL ROCKET guys.
As you show ability, you are allowed to BUY stronger rocket motors.
Simple as hell to do in our sport, if they can do it in theirs.
Their system work so well that Fire, insurance co., FAA, local fire Dept. all let them launch+ 20' long rockets all the time.
Their accidents are spectacular.:)

Bob_CO
12-18-2005, 06:00 PM
Screwdrivers are a menace to society. How many times have you heard of someone using a screwdriver to open a can and it slips. Maybe you have even done it yourself! :eek: Someone could be stabbed!

Even when properly used these dangerous implements can go right through your hand if it were to slip off of the head of a screw. We need to make it so the public can't buy screwdrivers. Only professions should be allowed to wield such dangerous implements.

BTW, I've heard that if you hold a lit match to the end of an over-the-counter rocket motor that bad things can happen so those aren't safe for the public either. There should be some government controls on these.

Seems silly doesn't it.


FACT #1 - When handled and used properly screwdrivers, rocket motors AND lipos are safe.

FACT #2 - When improperly handled or used those same items (and HUGE list of other items) can cause injury and/or death. This fact does not invalidate fact #1.

cyclops2
12-18-2005, 07:56 PM
You are right. It does seem silly to say a screwdriver can burn down a garage or a house of a modeler, hours after they are asleep. Same for the rocket motor.
I think you should be put in charge of removing toys that are a hazard to children.
Would you accept the RESPONSIBILTY?
Do you even know the meaning of the word?
NAAAH.
To busy reloading my LIPO.

Starmoon
12-18-2005, 08:06 PM
Will lipos ever be safe? Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Engerizer has this "E squared" AA battery that says it is "Lithium" I'll bet that bat is safe...how come modlers can't have a similar bat?

http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=EVR-L91BP-2

cyclops2
12-18-2005, 08:11 PM
Thanks for stepping in and getting us back to the original question.
Easy to get off a side issue.

cyclops2
12-18-2005, 08:21 PM
What I really would love to see is each Mahr pack in a rigid module that is keyed, so that it only fits a charge plug rated for its charge current rate.
At least we would elimanate one human error step.
The charger MIGHT be able to sense the cells by the current being drawn and do a comparison to present cell resistance to cell resistance checks every 5 to 10 minutes.
The Japanese computer chip people could work it out in 15 minutes. ------------Edit:
That logic is called a UPS. Basically you charge a dead cell and keep the battery charged by a fraction of the 1C current. It should be just as doable on LIPOS as all other batteries in the world.-------------Brainstorming is good.

meatball
12-18-2005, 08:44 PM
Companies are coming up with better technologies, for example in Li-Ion cells, they have whats called a PTC. A plastic like piece in between the conducting electrolytes that is pourous to allow flow. If the cell heats up and goes into thermal run-away, the plastic melts together, preventing further electrolyte conduction and effectively killing the cell before it blows.

Making a keyed plug for the mAH would make things so much more complicated in my opinion. You'd have to get a new plug for a new battery etc. I think they should make a chip that is made for said battery, and it is effectively a voltage and amp regulator, so when the cells hit a point in voltage, or if the charging amps are too high, or if the engine is drawing more amps then the pack can provide, it wont accept a current until the pack is discharged, or the charge settings are changed, or you rev the engine down. Of course this would cost a bit of money, but I think some consumers would be willing to do it

cyclops2
12-18-2005, 08:54 PM
I like that P T C.:)
Do you know of a LIPO brand or mfg. that has it already?
I would go to LIPO in a heart beat.

BadTroll413
12-18-2005, 09:55 PM
This seems like a good forum for a reminder......Why dont you have bottles of beer in teh hands of people at stadium games? Simple....an old man argered and won a case in civil court with the main focus of his argument sitting on his deak in a paper bag. What was the problem? The ability of a beer bottle to become a dangerous weapon at a ball game? How could this be stopped? Simple he said.....and pulled a basic paper cup out of his bag. Case closed.

It seems everyone here wants a safe product and the same goals....it just seems maybe the proper or ideal application of technology and product ahve not met. My guess is if these manufacturers were advised of many of these options they might look into them. On the otherhand.....

Liability wise....the use of a product that can be shown to be dangerous doesnt absolve the user of liability if damage or injury does occur even if used in a manner directed by the manufacturer. Where the manufacturer will be held responsible you can bet yer last dollar they will try and show where YOU and not they made the mistake. My guess is they will probably have more capital resources than the average hobbiest to defend themselves.

ragbag
12-18-2005, 10:49 PM
In The other world I understand they are passing legislation to ban all knives with points.

Butcher knives are the weapon fo choice in murders over there. I think the bulldog should go help with that legislation also.

I know the company that I worked for had those kind of people in charge of safety and they took the knives that we opened cable with away and left us to pocket knives and such.. :( ...... back then we didn't have lockback knives. Should have seen the array of things that were brought in to do the job. Hands and forearms cut.

I offered my hammer also, it hit my thumb one day. They didn't take it. Don't understand that it hit my finger. I wasn't responsible for that, was I?????:rolleyes:

When are you going to be held responsible for your actions or do you want big brother to control your hobbies also. :eek:

They are trying as we speak, my other hobby is shooting. They are trying to sue the manufacurers of the guns. They are losing that one finaly.

Sic 'um!!!!!

By George

ragbag
12-19-2005, 10:24 PM
Will lipos ever be safe? Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Engerizer has this "E squared" AA battery that says it is "Lithium" I'll bet that bat is safe...how come modlers can't have a similar bat?

http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=EVR-L91BP-2


If you read the package, it tells you NOT to charge the battery.:eek: That is when the problem of lipo fires begin.:eek: :eek:

It is a throwaway battery.

We have that type already, called nicads and nmh.

By George