Help with Ultrafly F-16

[RickAvery]

Help!! I’m having quite a problem setting up my UF F-16. The build hasn’t been a problem, but I’m getting MAJOR glitching problems from the electronics. Here’s the set-up. I’m using 3 HS-55 servos, an electron 6 dual conv. Rx, a mega 16-15-4 motor, a CC 35amp ESC, Kokam 3 cell, 2000mah 15c batt. My Tx is a Hi-Tech Optic-6. When the glitching occurs, all servos and the motor go nuts!! Has anyone else had this problem with this jet? I’ve tried two different Rxs, (same type), two different ESCs, the other being a 40amp jeti. And two different x-tals, ch-22. One Rx is brand new as are the 3 servos. I have extended the battery lead to the nose of the aircraft ~6”. I’ve tried twisting and not twisting the leads. It appears that routing the antenna right next to the battery or the battery leads worsens the problem, but no amount of moving the antenna to keep it as far from the battery or noisy lines i.e. ESC wires to the motor, will stop the glitching. My range checks are performed at ~ 300 to 400’ distances. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Rick

[Glacier Girl]

Rick,
A couple of people on various sites recommend wrapping the wires with aluminum foil. Taking long 1" strips and wrapping like you would do with tape. They swear by it for cutting down antenna glitches.

[RickAvery]

Thanks Glacier Girl. At this point, I'm going to try anything. Someone on another forum had mentioned the same thing, but not the technique. I'll try the technique you suggested. Thanks again for your reply and help.
Rick

[RickAvery]

Here is an interesting observation I found last night. While setting up the flap function on the f-16, I noticed that when I put a littls stress on the right aileron servo, as when disconnecting the clevis, all of the other servos would jitter slightly. When I put a bit of stress on the other two servos, I did not get the same reaction. I then swapped the servo wires in the Rx. i.e. ch-1 into ch-6 and ch-6 into ch-1. Now putting stress on the left aileron caused the others to jitter. Hmmmmm. Which ever servo is plugged into Ch-1 would cause jittering of the other servos. This is a brand spanking new Rx & servos!! I know that that doesn't mean they are aren't faulty. I put another Rx, same type, and the glitching still exhists, although putting stress on any servo no longer causes the jitters. Darn!!! I will try the unplug the servo check & see what happens. Thanks again for your ideas. I'm getting very anxious to paint, and then fly this baby. Got to get this solved. Happy flying.
Rick

[ParkJetsFlyer]

Hi Rick,

If all else fails, you might want to consider picking up one of these little things. A glitch - noise remover.

http://staticconcepts.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=18

http://staticconcepts.com/shop/images/NoiseSinkHCpic.gif

The NoiseSink™ helps eliminate glitching and may significantly increase the controllable radio range of electric powered vehicles. The NoiseSink™ is a high-quality electromagnetic filter that plugs in between radio components like the speed controller or servos and the receiver. The NoiseSink™ blocks electromagnetic noise that interferes with the signal from the transmitter. Electromagnetic noise is generated by the electric motor and motor controller of the vehicle, and in some cases, it can come from outside sources such as cell towers, radio towers, and high-voltage power lines.

- Maximize Radio Range
- Prevent/Eliminate Electromagnetic Noise-Induced Glitching
- Be Confident of Smooth, Uninterrupted Control

[RickAvery]

Thanks everyone for the replies and ideas. I still have yet to find any definitive causes for the still existing problem. I have tried to un-plug each servo while the glitching was present. It didn’t help & all of the plugged in servos and the motor kept on glitching. I also un-plugged the motor, and the servos still were going wacky. I have now tried 3 different Rxs, (all electron 6s), & 3 different ESCs, (all different brands and capacitys), to no avail. I am at my wits end and very bummed about this plane. (Not the planes fault). I am going to borrow my bro-in-laws Airtronics Tx and compatible Rx and see what happens. Here’s another question I’ll through out there. As in ALL of my other foamy flyers, i.e. planes and wings, I have put a fair amount of carbon fiber as reinforcement, I have found that it greatly increases the life span and so far it has never caused any radio interference problems. Has anyone ever found that carbon fiber has caused them radio problems? Thanks again for all of your help.
Rick
Tom,
Thanks for the tip on the noise supressor. At this point, $25.00 would be worth every penny if it works.

[ParkJetsFlyer]

Hi Rick,

There are other brands that are cheaper, and work differently. There has been a lot of talk about noise and Carbon fiber over on RCG, and I think that most of it centers around the placement of the antenna wire. You might want to try routing the antenna up through the canopy and taping it to the vert stab.
I'm suggesting this because it seems that no matter what you have done so far, all the equipment changes have not stopped the problem. Deans makes a base loaded antenna, that http://www.dynamoelectrics.com/detail.aspx?ID=558 (http://www.dynamoelectrics.com) sells. There are also many other types like this one http://www.shortantenna.com/prod01.htm

[Bmiller]

Try rerouting the antenna like Tom says.
If that fails, you better try a different transmitter as its the only thing you haven't changed!
A whole bunch of us including me use the same setup with no glitching.
Bruce

[RickAvery]

Thanks to all who have replied with their ideas. This has been without a doubt the most frustrating plane to get in the air. Especially when soooo many others have had success with it. I am currently awaiting a pair of in-line noise suppressors suggested above. I have tried many different antenna mounting configurations. My Tx flies 4 other models just fine without a hitch. The carbon fiber interference possibility seems a good candidate for all of this grief, but this model doesn’t really have any more CF than several other models and wings I currently fly. Why this one? Will report on the noise suppressors’ performance when they arrive. Thanks again for your time and help.
Rick

[ParkJetsFlyer]

Hi Rick,

I bought one when they first came out, with a stock motor. I was so dang frustrated with the instructions that I just boxed it up and tossed it in the closet :mad: I may go back to it when I have nothing better to work on, but there is already 4 or 5 mods that have to be made just to get it flyable WITHOUT glitching problems :( They get a big FAT 0 from me!!

[watt_the?!]

dont do aluminium foil...it does nothing. if it is emag shielding or noise issues then the permeability of the shielding material is the key factor. Aluminium's permeability for shielding is poor. there is a material that is available as a foil that is used by all the big aerospace companies including nasa...it's called mumetal and is designed exactly for this purpose.

steel works good too...but is heavy... if you're wondering, lead is terrible...

how do i know...dont ask.. if unsure, do a search for emag shielding and permeability and look up the materials properties tables.

(now, im not saying that this will solve your problem)

tim

[ParkJetsFlyer]

http://www.lessemf.com/mag-shld.html





METGLAS® MAGNETIC SHIELDING FILM


http://www.lessemf.com/images/a278.jpg
Paper Thin and Highly Effective
Space-age technology has produced this unique ultra-high permeability (1,000,000+) magnetic shielding alloy. Unlike conventional Mumetal® shielding alloys which are nickel/iron based and depend on bulk for effectiveness, MetGlas is a cobalt based alloy which is only 0.00065" thick (that's 16 microns, a red blood cell is 8 microns across)! Thinner means less material is needed. Less material means less weight and lower cost. Easy to handle, too. Cut it with a scissors, shape it with your fingers, tape it in place. Flexible and tough, with moderate corrosion resistance, it can be used indoors or out. Near-zero magnetostriction means it can be flexed over and over without losing its shielding properties.
Wrap wiring, pipes, switches, or electro-magnets. We were able to achieve over 95% reduction of fields from a lamp cord by wrapping it in a single layer of this material! Make shields for your shavers, electric toothbrushes, hair dryers, alarm clocks or lighting ballasts. Even lay it flat (in our experiments, we saw nearly 90% field reduction when a 4" x 4" MetGlas shield was placed flat against an energized lamp cord). Note: This material tends to saturate easily and is not recommended for shielding strong magnetic fields. This is the material often used in Electronic Article Surveillance systems. Formula 2714AZ, supplied annealed.

[RickAvery]

Tom,
Thanks for the heads up on the magnetic shielding. I would assume that you would wrap the wires from the battery to the ESC & from the ESC to the motor?

[ParkJetsFlyer]

Yes, wrap both, and make sure you twist the wires from the battery to the ESC, that seems to help also.

[Cyclops]

Lets go back to YOU FINDING the cause of the glitches. Pushing down on ANY servo that is CURRENTLY plugged in to ch # 1. You have a defective RECIEVER. Send it back and STATE very clearly those conditions. Scratch the Reciever case somewhere so they do not send back the same one!!! It has to be replaced.
I do not care about any other problems!! That reciever WILL crash a plane. Just when.
Other recievers can have similar problems. Nothing in this hobby is perfect.
Not even me.:)

[RickAvery]

Cyclops,
Thanks for the reply. Yup, I think that particular Rx is a bad one. It's the brand new one of the 3 Rxs I've tried. The other 2 have been pulled out of good fliers.

[DIALED/CHUCK]

WAIT!!!!

I have had this same problem before in two different craft.

A bad servo could be your culprit. Yep...that was it on BOTH of my setups...one servo had a bad board on it and the other a poor internal solder joint. Both were causing shorts and "glitches" like mad. In once instance, it was an HS55...the other a Digital JR (high end servo)...so it is not isolated to "them" or "those"...any servo can cause it...

Try disconnecting one servo at a time and testing to see if the problem goes away. Then, as a failsafe to make sure it is NOT your RX...plug the known 'good' servo into the channel previously occupied by the known "bad" servo.

I spent two days troubleshooting and switching up ESC's, RX's...only to find out a servo was the problem.

Best of luck, brother...and let me and the boys know how you make out...these things are always great to 'log' for future reference.

--C

[RickAvery]

Chuck,
Thanks for the idea. Someone at another forum had mentioned that a servo could be bad. So I tried the un plugging of each of the 3 servos. All of the plugged in servos & the motor kept glitching. I unplugged the motor and the servos glitched. One thing I didn't try was to un plug ALL of the servos. If TWO servos were bad, then unplugging one at a time and then plugging it back in would not catch it. I'll give it a try. Thanks to all for your time and ideas. I will certainly post my findings and or solutions when it's all figured out. Any other ideas are most welcome.
Rick

[DIALED/CHUCK]

"Too True...Too True...It is indeed a problem for us to Probosculate upon" - Floyd from the muppets.


Keep us posted...but it is sounding more like an RX issue...
Tx's can't be ruled out, either....

Radio problems are the worst...it's usually an easy fix...thing is there are about 50 troubleshooting procedures before ya get there...

You have my 'prayers'. :)

Best of luck,

--C

[RickAvery]

Well, I got and installed the noise supressors and they did nothing. I then moved the Rx to the belly from the cockpit area and this helped some but the glitching is still prevalent. I have now spent more time trying to trouble-shoot this problem than building the plane itself. Man, am I bummed, pissed off & very frustrated. I now fear the worst in that I may have ruined my model by adding the carbon fiber reinforcement. I’m going to try a different Rx. Not sure which one at this time as I have some investigating to do. Suggestions are welcome. Maybe something with DSP (digital signal processing). In another glitching thread it was suggested to use ferrite beads on the servo leads. I have no idea what these are but will look into them. Other ideas???
Rick

[Glacier Girl]

Rick,
Ok just for S**** & Giggles. If the rx is out of the bird and hooked to servos and a motor does it glitch?
Moving it out of the belly of the beast may prove that it's not any of the electronics but an internal fuselage composition problem, that is causing the problem. You know the symptoms, but maybe are looking in the wrong direction for a cure. If it does turn out to be the CF, what's it going to take to replace the CF?

Maybe, if you haven't already done so, elaborate on Chuck's suggestion. Pull everything out of the bird, hook everything up on the bench away from the bird. Works? Yes, great, you know it's not the system. If it still glitches, you know it's not the bird. If it's not the bird, unplug everything, then one at a time plug one item in and check for the glitch. Go/no go, unplug it and move to the next item, till you've proven if it's one or more things that are causing the glitching, if all glitch when installed it's either a bad rx or tx, or crystal. If only one item you plug in causes a glitch, you know its either the item you plugged in or that channel of the rx thats causing it.
Now if it's the bird that seems to be causing the glitch, same set of proceedures. Lay everything on top or bottom of the fuselage, check for glitch. Go/no go. If it's a no go, you know it's the bird's CF that's gotta go. If it's not as bad, try installing one item at a time to see which one or more is picking up the interference. If it's the rx or antenna you know the CF has got to go, or be shielded.

[watt_the?!]

WAIT!!!!



--C

:D

[RickAvery]

Well, i've finally had some success with the F-16. As discussed above I could get nothing to stop the glitching. I mean BAD glitching, servos going from one stop to the other, motor on and off. A disaster waiting to happen. I looked into a FMA Rx and decided to purchase one. I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't quite know the technical explainations but they use a few types of digital filtering to obtain a cleaner signal. I put the Rx into the plane, reconfigured the Tx for 5 Ch operation, (the Rx is a 5 Ch dual conversion), and went for the range check. The servos seemed to be twitching ever so slightly, barely noticeable on the control surfaces but did buzz intermittantly. But no glitches and the motor never came on when it was not supposed to. Took her back to the shop, attached a 6 X 4 APCe prop, set up dual rates at 60%, added a slight up to the elevator & a slight right turn to the ailerons. Back to the flying area, 3/4 throttle and ler her rip. She flew away in a slight right arcing turn and started loosing altitude. I was using the low rate settings. Was able to get control fairly eaisly and backed off of the throttle to 50%. Got her trimmed at 50% throttle and flew several laps. She needed left aileron trim, (shouldn't have added the right trim to launch), and a conciderable amount of up elevator to fly flat. Throttling up sent the nose up in a steep climb. Hmmmm. I have one small piece of lead in the cockpit to balance at 75mm from the leading edge at the root. Next flight I'll take the lead out. Landing was uneventful. She seemed very stable at slow speeds and didn't try to drop a wing, although the angle of decent is a bit steep with the power off, she always stayed flat. Brought her in without a scratch! Not one noticeable glitch throughout the flight. Right on!!! I was grinning from ear to ear!!! The battery was only slightly warm but the 5min. flight had only 3 or so WOT runs of ~ 10 to 15 sec. I'm glad I waited and didn't get impatient. The bad thing in all of this is I still don't know what the cause of the interference is. I say IS because more than likely, The interference is still present, just being filtered out. The Rx has the ability to count the number of interference 'hits' that it filters out during a flight. I'll need to do some more reading and then programming of the Rx to take advantage of all of its features. Any way, Thanks to everyone for taking the time with your ideas to try and help a fellow flyer. It is greatly appreciated, and one of the great things about these forums. Happy flying!
Rick

[ParkJetsFlyer]

Glad to hear you had a successful flight Rick!!! The FMA receiver seems to be the ticket..

[stokeladd]

hi tech know that optic 6 has a faulty modual causing glitching on the optic 6

[stokeladd]

i totaled 2 planes, on a 2 month old set up there tech told me to wrap tape around the modual till a new case,s arives, it didnt work, scratch one more plane , then i send the the case back to them for modifications this is a multi million doller corp, i dont buy anythig Hitech any more, did you have glitches with the HITECH OPTIC 6 SYSTEM I THINK THEY SHOUL PAY FOR THIS

[RickAvery]

Stokeladd,
I can't say I've ever had any problems with the Optic-6. With my F-16, I even tried my Bro-in-laws Airtronics set up, and as mentioned on the previous page, only the FMA Rx fixed the problem. Hope you get your problem fixed.
Rick