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hillbille
02-29-2008, 09:01 PM
I'm starting this thread because I believe that there seems to be a tendency of RC flyers that think the WWI planes are very hard to fly, twitchy, hard to take off, poor performance,etc.,etc..

I am of the opposite opinion. I think the WWI planes are great fliers. Profile - full fuse - stick and tissue - if it flies slowly and in a scale fashion then this thread should cover it!

Lately I have been building scratch build WWI planes from FFF (DOW Blucor) and every one has been a good flying plane. Slow scale like performance and very aerobatic when called upon but generally speaking just floaters. Not heavy so these won't ake much wind - for an outdoor plane - indoors would be great if the area were big enough. The planes I have been building are all flat bottom (LOL! - in fact flat WINGed!!). Even though there can be a great deal of wing area - there is no appreciable glide ratio. These fly great with a little power but glide like a brick! In fact all crashes I have experienced were landings gone wrong! I fly other planes and flat foamy's and they teach me bad habbits! I generally like to land fairly close and not have to walk too far for the planes. It ain't that I'm lazy but that these are light planes and if there is any breeze then they tend to want to blow around without power. The lighter loaded planes I build usually do NOT have any rudder - just elevator and ailerons. Ground control is fairly non existent!

I am usually death on threads - when I post in them I am usually the last to do so!! I know I know it's just the way it works out but never the less it has been happening lately. I would just like to get this started - then you guys can take over.



Hillbille

hillbille
02-29-2008, 09:38 PM
Lately as I said in my previous post I have been building WWI planes. I went to RCGroups and under the FOAMIES (SCRATCHBUILT) thread there is a DIY thread that has a great deal of posted plans ans build threads for various aircraft. I wanted to find a simple to build and easy to fly DR1 or at least that was the goal I started out with. I found a plan by a guy named PMJass. He is in Australia. He had done a DR1 from depron and it looked really good in the pictures posted in the "build" thread and the plans were posted free. He had other plans for sale for $10 to $15 for other models. What attracted me to his particular set of plans for the DR1 was that people on that thread said that they were able to assemble it in three hours! MY KIND OF PLANE!!!

PMJass built his planes from depron as it wa what is available in Australia and not too expensive there either. But I just substituted the 6mm DOW Blucor for depron and built away.

I should mention here that the plans are just that - PLANS. There are no instruction sheets - tips - tricks - or avoidance addendum's. At least none that I could find. Now I am FAR from a Master builder of model airplanes! In fact those that know me know that I don't own, build, nor buy airplanes that are too pretty to fly! Any way my first one was a little off due to not knowing how the tiled plans oriented to each other and my wings were slightly off and the fuse top pieces had a 1/2 " gap - on the underside where most people didn't notice but I knew it was there!

All my mistakes were hardly noticeable as it lifted from the short takeoff run into the air! Looked magnificent from 50 feet away flying 15mph!! And that's exactly the point of this thread - foamy WWI planes fly great!

I am including a picture of the first DR1 - lat night in a sub 40 degree garage/workshop/hangar!

Hillbille

WWI Ace
02-29-2008, 11:18 PM
I'd like to build a bird like that Hillbille!!! Steve

hillbille
03-01-2008, 02:01 AM
WWI Ace - All of my WWI planes derive from the same plan just a change here and there and - D VII, Sopwith Triplane, DR1, SE 5a, Newport 11 - and so on.

Here's some pictures - all great flyers - except the flyer! LOL!


Hillbille

hillbille
03-19-2008, 01:13 AM
New DR1 I built for a friend maidened today and here's some video of today's flying. These look pretty good in the air!!!





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNl_iA_ej0g






Hillbille
:D

aviatordave
03-19-2008, 01:20 AM
looks like it flys pretty good.

-I think you need a bigger flying field ;)

hillbille
03-19-2008, 02:52 AM
Thanks Dave -

Yep - it's a profile - takes about 40 to 45 minutes to cut one out of FFF Blucor and after you have all the parts it only takes about 45 minutes to hot glue it all together and another hour to hour and a half for the controls, landing gear and radio equipment! Quick build, except for the four days of painting!! LOL!! That's Rustoleum red and white and black. Heavy coats straight from the can - doesn't bother the Blucor I use one bit!!! Thin blucor - fragile in your hands and does not seem too strong - but when they roll out and take off - what a beautiful sight! Of course the rolls are very snappy and quite axial and it will loop almost upon it's own tail - but they will also do slow barrel type scale looking rolls and big wide loops easily too. Just an all round great flying plane. About $2.50 worth of foam.


Hillbille
:D

aviatordave
03-19-2008, 03:54 AM
I didnt think the FF blucor was available to the entire US, especially warmer areas, like CA. I've often contemplated about building one that way every time I stroll through Menards.

I might just have to do it, you cant beat the price -

hillbille
03-19-2008, 06:56 AM
Hey Dave - the build thread I did is here:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=354065&postcount=1

only about 18 parts to cut out - not counting the 10 or so strut anchors.

Post pics if you do build one!!

Hillbille
:D

FlyingMonkey
03-19-2008, 10:36 AM
I didnt think the FF blucor was available to the entire US, especially warmer areas, like CA. I've often contemplated about building one that way every time I stroll through Menards.

I might just have to do it, you cant beat the price -

They sell it here if FL.

We need insulation too. To keep the hot out and the cold in!


:D

hillbille
04-01-2008, 06:27 AM
One Sopwith looking Triplane - coming up! It's in the paint booth at the moment. When the paint is dry and the build starts so will the pictures.


Hillbille
:D

FlyingMonkey
04-01-2008, 11:32 AM
is it dry yet?

hillbille
04-02-2008, 02:21 AM
is it dry yet?

It's still not dry - still tacky - but some assembly has begun. I have the LG finished, main fuse and tail section joined, motor is gonna be a TP 2410-08 and of course it will have the usual TP 9g servos. I tried a little experiment with the painting - and Biplane Murphy had better start figuring out how to get all those roundels on himself!!

The original had them just printed (iron crosses with the white cross background) from a printer - cut out and back sprayed with 3M-77 and stuck on like decals. I guess I'm gonna be like the French - I'll just give him the basic Sopwith Triplane and then HE can decorate it!!


Hillbille
:D

hillbille
04-02-2008, 09:07 AM
Got a little done - midwing and tail on fuse. Just doesn't look right without the other two wings!

BTW - the LG/Motor mount is only temp fitted at this stage.


Hillbille

hillbille
04-02-2008, 06:18 PM
Biplane Murphy - It's nearly done!!

Just finishing up the controls - but this is it!!



Hillbille

Biplane Murphy
04-02-2008, 07:19 PM
Wow Hillbille!!!!!

It Looks :

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D:D:D:tc::tc::tc::):):)

WWI Ace
04-02-2008, 11:15 PM
Cool tripe Hillbilly!!! Steve

hillbille
04-03-2008, 05:52 AM
Like I said they look real good from 20 feet away and great in the air at 15 mph but when you actually hold it in your hand and look closely you think,"This POS'll never get off the ground!", but it will and is very easy flying to boot!


Hillbille

Biplane Murphy
04-03-2008, 06:03 AM
I personally will be truly honored to fly that tripehound.:tc:

hillbille
04-03-2008, 06:06 AM
Oh yeah I almost forgot. I got all the controls hooked up and I dug around (rooted would be a better description as I am pack rat -) and found a 20 amp ESC not doing anything at the moment so - hooked it up and then dug out an old (really old with a plastic hard shell!) Berg DSP receiver and got everything all laid out. Tested everything - all the controls work as they should and the motor-esc is set up correctly and the CG checks OK. So this thing will be ready to go except for the receiver and a lipo.



Hillbille

Biplane Murphy
04-03-2008, 06:08 AM
Nice!!

What do you think about a 1320mah 3s Lipo?

hillbille
04-03-2008, 06:35 AM
Yes a 1350 will be just fine. Like I said I have flown these with LM-1300 3S1P and also a LM 2250 3S1P - the 2250's are HEAVY for this little guy but allow you to stay up a lot longer and if it's what you got it's what you use!! Hehehe.

If I were you I'd invest in a hot glue gun from WM - about $4 with mini sticks of glue and some red, white, and blue acrylic paints for those roundels - then do what ever you need to do to steady your hand and try painting perfect circles in duplicate sizes!! LOL!! That's two on the top wing - two on the underside of the bottom wing - and one on each side of the fuse. Thewn there's the insignia and personal markings!!


Hillbille


This is the one I had in mind when I built you your Murph -

Biplane Murphy
04-03-2008, 06:44 AM
I have a good printer and some spray adhesive....I was thinking that may be the way to go...if I can find a file of the graphics....(I bet Marty/ScaleRCflyer would know where to find them)

hillbille
04-03-2008, 06:56 AM
I have some for a S.E.5a - two sets in fact and they are in .pdf form. Let me know if you would like them and I'll post 'em.



Hillbille

degreen60
04-03-2008, 02:32 PM
I have a good printer and some spray adhesive....I was thinking that may be the way to go...if I can find a file of the graphics....(I bet Marty/ScaleRCflyer would know where to find them)

I make my decals 2 ways. 1. Just print on plain paper, use glue stick(school glue), then cover with clear shipping tape to make water proof. 2. Print on tissue paper glued around the edges to plain paper. Lay on plane and spray with clear acrylic. The tissue become clear when sprayed so if you want white you have to put the tissue over white. My Tripe has the plain paper covered with shipping tape.

Biplane Murphy
04-03-2008, 05:04 PM
I have some for a S.E.5a - two sets in fact and they are in .pdf form. Let me know if you would like them and I'll post 'em.



Hillbille

That would be nice.:)

I don't think I could handpaint a roundel to save my life...LOL...:D

Biplane Murphy
04-03-2008, 05:07 PM
I make my decals 2 ways. 1. Just print on plain paper, use glue stick(school glue), then cover with clear shipping tape to make water proof. 2. Print on tissue paper glued around the edges to plain paper. Lay on plane and spray with clear acrylic. The tissue become clear when sprayed so if you want white you have to put the tissue over white. My Tripe has the plain paper covered with shipping tape.

Nice!!....I was thinking of packing tape over the inkjet paper, then cutting them out and applying them with 3M adhesive. Perhaps I will try the stick glue.:)

degreen60
04-03-2008, 05:20 PM
Here are a couple of places to get WW1 decals.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18659

This one has Sopwith Tripe decals in 3 differant scales.

http://www.aerodromerc.com/

Biplane Murphy
04-03-2008, 05:32 PM
Here are a couple of places to get WW1 decals.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18659

This one has Sopwith Tripe decals in 3 differant scales.

http://www.aerodromerc.com/

Thanks.:)

I recently had computer failure, and had to replace my PC...lost all my bookmarks....need to buy an external backup drive.....I tried for hours to retrieve the bookmarks file from my old hard drive, but I think I ended up deleting it.:<:.....retrieved all my photos though.:)

WWI Ace
04-03-2008, 06:14 PM
Sorry to hear that Murph. But at least you still have your pictures!!! Steve

hillbille
04-04-2008, 07:39 PM
Ahhhh - the true test - Biplane Murphy and I are goint to meet this afternoon and he will get the Sopwith triplane - so you will all hear about it later! I think it looks pretty good - and will look even better in the air. Course I pretty biased as I HAVE flown mine and seen all the others fly - BM hasn't ever even owned a foam plane before!


Hillbille

constantCrash
04-04-2008, 09:32 PM
<off topic rant>
you know, If you purchased a Mac, and purchased an eternal hard drive, Time Machine (their backup software ) is built in and dead simple to use
:tc:

</off topic rant>

Thanks.:)

I recently had computer failure, and had to replace my PC...lost all my bookmarks....need to buy an external backup drive.....I tried for hours to retrieve the bookmarks file from my old hard drive, but I think I ended up deleting it.:<:.....retrieved all my photos though.:)

Biplane Murphy
04-05-2008, 12:53 AM
<off topic rant>
you know, If you purchased a Mac, and purchased an eternal hard drive, Time Machine (their backup software ) is built in and dead simple to use
:tc:

</off topic rant>

Thanks for the advise....:).....but I already picked up a Toshiba Laptop, and will obtain an external Drive for backup soon..;-)
The new Laptop works well.:)

Biplane Murphy
04-05-2008, 12:55 AM
Ahhhh - the true test - Biplane Murphy and I are goint to meet this afternoon and he will get the Sopwith triplane - so you will all hear about it later! I think it looks pretty good - and will look even better in the air. Course I pretty biased as I HAVE flown mine and seen all the others fly - BM hasn't ever even owned a foam plane before!


Hillbille

I Like It!!!!




I hope to maiden it tomorrow morning or as soon as the wind permits....LOL


Thank You So Very Much Hillbilly!!!!!!

He set me up with a sweet tripe, 2 homeplate foam flyer kits for the 2 kids, and a new set of wings for my "Injured" Great Planes SE5a.....


Bill is truly a great guy, and I can't wait untill we have a chance to fly some sorties over the Southern California Desert together!!!

Biplane Murphy
04-05-2008, 01:06 AM
Now if i can just convince Hillbilly to take my foam P-40 kit off my hands..LOL...it only has 1 wing, and I like 2 or more wings.;-)

WWI Ace
04-05-2008, 02:44 PM
Just add one or two more wings to the P40 Murph!! Then paint it red of course!!! Steve

degreen60
04-05-2008, 03:55 PM
Just add one or two more wings to the P40 Murph!! Then paint it red of course!!! Steve

If it is red add black crosses so my Sopwiths can find it.

Biplane Murphy
04-05-2008, 06:21 PM
If it is red add black crosses so my Sopwiths can find it.

HAHAHAHHAAAAHHAA

I was hoping to maiden the tripehound from Hillbilly this morning......
However.....there was a mighty wind blowing before Dawn and it is still blowing.:(

Biplane Murphy
04-05-2008, 07:03 PM
Here's a couple photos from when Hillbilly and I met.:)
And the cool tripehound he made for me.:tc:

Hillbilly and the Tripehound.
61844


Me and the Tripehound.
61845

hillbille
04-06-2008, 06:21 AM
Weather channel says the wind will drop off after midnight. If not in the morning - then Monday might do it!!


Hillbille


At least you didn't tell them we were standing in front of my Cardiologists office. LOL.

FlyingMonkey
04-06-2008, 10:56 AM
Weather channel says the wind will drop off after midnight. If not in the morning - then Monday might do it!!


Hillbille


At least you didn't tell them we were standing in front of my Cardiologists office. LOL.

you mean...... Devineni Venkat MD Cardiologist

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&q=17319+Jasmine+St,+Victorville,+CA+92395,+USA&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=image


google is a wonderful thing.

FlyingMonkey
04-06-2008, 10:59 AM
making this the place behind hillbilly...

http://www.apatiteselfstorage.com/

and this the one behind murph...

http://www.sonshinecollision.com/

hillbille
04-06-2008, 03:51 PM
Yep - that is Dr. Devenini's office behind us, Also the wind is still blowing like mad - so my second career as a weather announcer looks pretty good!!


Hillbille


After the meeting and exchange - I went in for a "Stress" test - blood pressure was so low the nurse wanted to know if I had taken BP meds that morning (a no-no before a stress test!) - I did (again - my estimation!) pretty good - went to stage 4 on the treadmill - just a walk in the park!



Hillbille

Biplane Murphy
04-06-2008, 04:54 PM
Glad to hear your tests went well!!

Dang... that is one cheeky Monkey...LOL!!!

scalercflyer
04-10-2008, 02:13 AM
Hey HillBilly! Lay some plans on me! I'll take anything you fell like giving! I am grateful for whatever you can do. I love the DR1 and the SE5a (or for that matter all of them)! I'm sure some of the other Guys would be interested too. Martin

hillbille
04-10-2008, 04:14 AM
The link to the build thread was way back in post #9 of this thread - but I guess I can repost it.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=354065&postcount=1

The original plans are from a thread over on RCGroups as stated in the original build thread. PMJass is the true author of these plans and he WILL answer PM's from RCG. He is in Australia. It's really a nice build and except for slow drying paint doesn't take very long at all. BTW I use hot glue for everything - even the hinges on the ailerons and elevator!!

Hillbille

Biplane Murphy
04-16-2008, 08:58 PM
I finally had a chance to maiden the tripehound.:)

It was a climber...LOL.....I gave it all the down trim I had available in my radio.....but still climbed....

So I landed her....and it was a sweet landing!!

That plane will fly soooooooooo slow!!

Charging the Battery for more testing....I will let you all know how it goes.

Hillbilly, Thanks again for the sweet little tripe!!:)

Biplane Murphy
04-16-2008, 09:05 PM
Second flight was great!!...After moving the pushrod to start with a bit of down elevator, it flew nicely....

Next I'll try some inverted flight to check if it is tailheavy....

Also, I am considering a bigger lipo (2100mah)
Seems that the 1320mah is giving a short flight time.

She is certainly pretty in the air!!

After I got her to fly level hands free, I pointed her into the light breeze, and reduced throttle until I had it in a nice Harrier with no forward movement...

When it came time to land, i brought her in and greased the landing....had to take 2 steps to go pick her up...LOL

This is a fun plane for sure!!:tc:

pburt1975
04-16-2008, 09:09 PM
He set me up with a sweet tripe, 2 homeplate foam flyer kits for the 2 kids, and a new set of wings for my "Injured" Great Planes SE5a.....



Your kids will love them. My 12yo flew one of those from HB as his very first plane. Flew like a champ and will slow way down, like the tripe.


Glad you finally got to maiden that lady. Hope you get that desire to climb sorted!

Biplane Murphy
04-16-2008, 09:13 PM
Your kids will love them. My 12yo flew one of those from HB as his very first plane. Flew like a champ and will slow way down, like the tripe.


Glad you finally got to maiden that lady. Hope you get that desire to climb sorted!

A little pushrod adjustment sorted out the climbing.....flight #3 has inverted passes scheduled to get more info on the CG...waiting for the Batt to charge right now...

I might put a bigger battery in her to add noseweight if needed....have to fly her upside down to be sure though..LOL

gfdengine204
04-16-2008, 09:20 PM
Chris,

Sounds like a blast! The more I read about this FFF Bluecor stuff the more I think I should try it.

(Hmmmm I even have a TowerPro 2712 motor doing nothing....... :rolleyes:

Biplane Murphy
04-16-2008, 09:30 PM
Chris,

Sounds like a blast! The more I read about this FFF Bluecor stuff the more I think I should try it.

(Hmmmm I even have a TowerPro 2712 motor doing nothing....... :rolleyes:

This is actually my first Foam Airplane!!

I have to say I love it.....it flies sooooooooooooo slow!!!!

Perfect for my backyard.....even though I have been flying my electric balsa planes here too...;-)

I will not be flying my bigger glow fueled ones in the yard though...LOL

Biplane Murphy
04-16-2008, 10:12 PM
Flight #3....

Tried out inverted flight....decided to replace 1320mah 3s lipo with 2100mah 3s Lipo....she seemed tailheavy

Flight #4....

Flew her inverted, upright, used high rates, and did Nice tight Loops, Rolls, Split S's, and Immelman turns....
She performed quite beautifully!!! and looked good doing it!!:tc:

Forgot to try a rudderless Snap Roll, but I guess that is what flight #5 is for...LOL


This plane is a sweet relaxing flyer and a dream to use right here in the yard!!

I recommend the design to anyone with aileron experience....

Biplane Murphy
04-17-2008, 12:47 AM
7 flights on the tripehound so far, and all today!!

Boy am I happy the wind has gone away for today at least!!

It is a real pleasure to land this thing....keep the power on just a little, and aim it at myself...Landing one step away is so awesome!!....:tc:

(Also got 2 flights with my Ultimate Bipe....and 1 with my Fokker DVII):)

hillbille
04-17-2008, 02:17 AM
That's why I included the "Indoor" in the title of this thread - these could easily be flown in a large gym or great in an arena! I do the same landings - 'cept I usually have to go 4 or 5 steps to get it. The guys at the place I normally fly from get pretty nervous when people fly at themselves or the flightline for that matter - and rightfully so I guess as it would be pretty unnerving to do it with a roaring nitro plane of any size!

I am just thrilled that you enjoyed it so much. Fun little planes to fly close in or out and about. It will handle a little wind - just not MUCH wind! LOL! They are all tail heavy though with the light batteries - but the motor could slide out a little farther (moves the prop out proportionately though and doesn't look as good IMHO) or the nose could be cut an inch or so longer with the same effect. Adding the rudder would just add unnecessary weight to the tail IMHO. So it's a builders trade off - balance of looks with fair flying characteristics. I think it's a fine flying plane as long as it's flying!! LRL!!(That's Laughing REALLY Loud!!) Basic plan can sustain mild cosmetic alterations to make a DR1, Sopwith triplane, DVII, SE5a,etc., etc.. and all fly well.


Hillbille

gfdengine204
04-17-2008, 02:40 AM
Makes me wish I lived close enough to get Billy to make one for me..... ;)

Biplane Murphy
04-17-2008, 06:03 AM
That's why I included the "Indoor" in the title of this thread - these could easily be flown in a large gym or great in an arena! I do the same landings - 'cept I usually have to go 4 or 5 steps to get it. The guys at the place I normally fly from get pretty nervous when people fly at themselves or the flightline for that matter - and rightfully so I guess as it would be pretty unnerving to do it with a roaring nitro plane of any size!

I am just thrilled that you enjoyed it so much. Fun little planes to fly close in or out and about. It will handle a little wind - just not MUCH wind! LOL! They are all tail heavy though with the light batteries - but the motor could slide out a little farther (moves the prop out proportionately though and doesn't look as good IMHO) or the nose could be cut an inch or so longer with the same effect. Adding the rudder would just add unnecessary weight to the tail IMHO. So it's a builders trade off - balance of looks with fair flying characteristics. I think it's a fine flying plane as long as it's flying!! LRL!!(That's Laughing REALLY Loud!!) Basic plan can sustain mild cosmetic alterations to make a DR1, Sopwith triplane, DVII, SE5a,etc., etc.. and all fly well.


Hillbille

Bill.....I definately am enjoying that little bird.:)

The bigger battery gives a bit longer flight times, so that works for me.

I flew it in a pretty good breeze, landing into the wind with a very low groundspeed!!
I know you said small breezes are OK...But I couldn't resist flying it in a bit more wind!!:)

Also pointing it into the wind and doing a stationary Harrier is a blast.:tc:

praymond
04-23-2008, 03:12 AM
Hillbilli, I enjoyed your escapades with the tripes, fun reading. I made the big one from RCG too and loved the slow majestic flying. And was amazed at the easy rolls, almost slow motion. Sadly I hurt it pretty bad, tripping while carrying down cellar, so I gutter it for the gear. Did get some vid of it tho for memories!

What I wanted to say is that after that I made GPW's simple Fokker (bipe from RCG) in the 150% version, Modded the original plans with KF stepped foils on tom of the wings, and giving it some dihedral on lower wing only. You'd like that version too I bet. It's simpler to build than the tripe, faster too with the same power set up, and easier to fly inverted, land, and tho faster it will slow down as well. Oh ya, only top ailerons, simpler'!

Not to take away from PMJass's design, his is probably a bit more rugged and a great flyer. the simple fokker isn't hard to transport, and the KF wing foil really makes a difference .

Here's a pic of the Simple Fokker bipe with my departed Tripe.


Paul

hillbille
04-23-2008, 07:09 AM
Praymond - Thanks both for the compliment and just for contributing to the thread. I have built 9 of the triplanes (three black, five red and all DR1's and the one cosmedically modded to a Sopwith Tripe) and only have one black one in my hangar. Sadly it's probably suffered so much hangar rash it will need to be replaced. I did actually use the PMJass plans for all the builds including the mock SE5a and the DVII - same plan just left out the mid wing and added outer "N" struts. It's as you know a fun build and fairly mistake free - most times when I made mistakes no one knew it but me!

Every one of these has flown (or IS flying) very well. I varied from the plan in that the original plan was for a 3D aerobatic 4 ch. model and i went with 3 foregoing the rudder as it seemed unnecessary to me and I wanted a good FLYING plane that was light and easy to fly.

A 150% upscale would be a BIG foamy in the WWI style! I'd sure like to see one fly!! I was just thinking the other day that as summer comes on here and the wind dies away - these little planes would make excellent WWI COMBAT planes!!! :red:

Hillbille

Biplane Murphy
04-23-2008, 02:28 PM
I was just thinking the other day that as summer comes on here and the wind dies away - these little planes would make excellent WWI COMBAT planes!!! :red:

Hillbille

I was thinking that the other day too.:tc: