EPP "Beginner" Plane

[diverdon]

Hello Everyone .. Hope all is going good for you ... I have been thinking about EPP off and on ... I just saw a thread about a EPP 3-D Bi - Plane.. Then there's another one thats been out for a while it's another 3-D Low wing plane ..with a "Zipper" in the top of it ..From Great Planes .

So To .. Get To The Point ... Has anyone heard of a EPP Plane made for beginners ?? Like a High wing Plane Pusher or tractor motor setup .. I think of all of the "Beginner" designs and it seems like they are all Hi-wing models but that doesn't matter so much to me I'd just like a plane whatever configuration that's for beginners ..This Great Planes Yak would be great if it had a setup for beginners instead of 3-D...

I wonder if I could change The wing setup on this Great planes thing ... Not the best choice .. (Me Designing it) Does anyone know of a Beginner EPP Plane ?? Please ?? Please?? Thank You , Don J. http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/greatplanes/gpma1274.html

[gzsfrk]

Hey Don! You've been around for awhile, so I guess you're already aware of the Easy Star and Wild Hawk (http://www.raidentech.com/rtfwiha54el3.html), both of which use EPP foam and are ridiculously crash resistant. And either of those are excellent first or second planes for beginners.

But are you looking for a plane that's a bit more conventional? Or is there some other reason why you wouldn't want to use these?

[diverdon]

Thanks for the reply , Yes .. My first plane was the wild hawk .. The price was right for getting into the hobby .. Got it on sale at Harbour Freight ... It may be more crash resistant than some but I still destroyed it .. Flew in too high a winds and was truely a beginner ... Gotta say looking back that that plane was pretty tuff considering what I put it thru ... Destroyed 2 of them all together .. Buying replacement parts and all ....

Then the "Easy Star" supposto be the REAL Beginner plane that the Wild Hawk was copied off of I thought maybe .. I had been itching to get that plane since I gotten the wild hawk ... Wellll... It got destroyed too thing is neither of these planes are like their let on to be.. "To Me" ... a sorta hard crash breaks stuff and I can't really blame the plane ... I shouldn't be crashing them ... But Really Honestly I did not see where this foam was so crash resistant .. I have had some foam experience being brought up with surfboards for 20 some odd years ...

The Plane from Great planes looks more forgiving than any I've ever seen .... have you seen their sales video ?? The fuselage and wing bend like crazy without breaking ... It's a softer foam .. I just wish there was a Beginner type setup made with this foam ..Maybe a long wing 50 inches or so or a Slow stick type setup with an EPP foam wing ..

You understand what I am looking for ???I can't belive that I am the only person who would like to have a plane that could bounce off the ground a little harder without being damaged ... Honestyl .. I am a crummy BAD Pilot BUT some of the low slow crashes have broken things that shouldn't break ... I think ..


This website is the best thing I have goin for me as far as this hobby goes .. I was ready to hang it up and Chellie gave me a couple of resources of where to buy parts and really saved me . You all are great people .. I realize I'm a cruddy flyer and thats 99% of the problem but still it can't hurt to try to ask for a plane like the Great Planes Yak but a beginner (Trainer) model ... I think it would be a good idea to help people in the beginning .. Maybe I'm wrong maybe it's just me but that's the Idea I'm trying to get thru ... If there is something like that kind of plane out there I am just hoping maybe I will be able to hear aboutr it from one of your /our friends here on the wattflyers .. ?

And REALLY .... thanks for the reply I do appreciate it so many people have helped me here .. I try to post helpful things when I can .. from my little experience .. I just hope I don't sound too rough in this reply .. I like to be a good guy and not start any trouble .. If I do sound mean here I'm sorry ...really .. The intension is to ask if anyone has heard of anyone building a plane like this .. That Great planes Yak with an Soft Easy Star EPP Bendable wing sounds like a real seller to me.

WOW What a Yaker I am , Thanks to all of you ... AGAIN , Don J.

[yossarian]

I really can't think of a darn thing Don. It seems most of the newer EPP planes comming out have stiffer foam than ever before. I just picked up the T-28 Trojan by parkzone and I'm pretty impressed with it's rigidity. Where as my older Multiplex Easy glider has noticeably softer wings, but they are both called EPP foam.

People are likely also figuring in the ease of fixing foam when they say stuff like 'crash resistant foam.' You can ding a foam wing and leave an ugly mark while a balsa wing might shrug off the same ding. Now let's say you snap the wing in half. With a foam wing, you can be flying again in 20 minutes with some glue. With balsa, you likely need a replacement wing or extensinve repair work in the hangar.

So when they say crash resistant, they really mean 'easy to fix after you crash them.'

;-)

[ministeve2003]

I've seen the great planes one, but there's a few threads on hear that say its not as tough as they show... and not easy to repair either...

If you have an easystar, just epoxy it back togeather, do whatever you have to to put it back flying... even if it looks ugly.... it'll be your best bet...


Didn't we figure out that your problem with flying is you get scared? I know you said that you fly the sim ok... so I talked about it with my buddy... I told my buddy this today.... cause he's been getting twitchy about my planes lately.... "forget getting scared of it, it either it does what you tell it, or it crashes... its like either it listens, or you'll punish it...

its only when you get scared of the plane that you're jerking the controls around.... Take a deep breath and forget about crashing it... just make sure you have plenty of space around without people to hit, and don't worry about it...


PS. using my own advice I've finally starting to throw my 48" balsa 3d profile around like a foamy... And I'm sure its not happy about that...lol
http://www.topmodelproduction.com/picsgas/260-46.jpg
SK

If that don't work, Just like my computer... threaten it with a can opener...LOL

[rocket_jim]

My personal experience was that the Multiplex EasyStar was big enough for me to easily see and keep oriented, had a protected prop location, would gently land itself hands-off, and was tough enough for multiple crashes; to really let me get into flying through a full pack at a time after trying to fly and destroying a lot of other planes in mere seconds on the way.

It does require a significant flying field due to its speed in the air. Only once you're pretty good and comfortable with it would I consider trying to fly it off a smaller field like a soccer field. But IMHO that really goes for any beginner pilot.

Jim

[diverdon]

Mucho , Mucho .... Thanks to everyone for the help ... If there was one of these Someone would have posted it for me ... Hey Maybe I should invent it and get rich .. Ha! , Ha! .. Thanks again for the encouragement MiniSteve .. I will never give up , one day it will just come to me .. It's like learning to ride a bike .. I wish I was 10-20 years younger then I would have been raised with computer games and it would be simple to me ...

As a Boat Captain I once asked this little kid who was up on the bridge if he would like to drive the boat ... I explained how you were supposto keep the Arrow betweet the 2 lines on the G.P.S. to steer straight to our destination .... He drove straighter than me ...Or a lot of other people I've seen drive ... His mom said it was because it was just like a video game to him ...

I am gonna try to stick with the Slow Stick Planes as I have had my best luck with them and try to get help with my flying.. Join a club maybe ..even as afraid of people as I am .. Still I know it will help a lot ..

Perhaps I will contact the Great Planes people and ask about their planes maybe I could Modify one of the yaks.. Ya know Steve I beleive ya about what you said about their durabilaty and all but I have always been the kind that has to learn the hard way ..

And THANKS Again for coming thru for me with the answers to my dumb questions .. Happy Trails , Don J.

[M.T.]

Don...

I hope that I have understood what you are saying?

I have broken several planes as part of my learning curve!

I think that I am now at the point of getting the hang of flying.
If I were going to offer advice about learning to fly, it would definately be "Get a 3 channel Cub style plane and stick with, resist any temptation to fly low-wing planes (Too responsive) or Sticks (Don't like wind) until you are REALLY ready"

I have quite a few different planes in my workshop, some I have had more luck with than others, but have recently decided to stop 'chopping and changing' and 'master' just one of them.

This is of course just my experience, but buy one plane (some props and a BIG pot of epoxy) and stay with it... from what I have flown, I think a 'Cub' is that plane!

Hang in there and you WILL get there.

[yossarian]

Hello Everyone .. Hope all is going good for you ... I have been thinking about EPP off and on ... I just saw a thread about a EPP 3-D Bi - Plane.. Then there's another one thats been out for a while it's another 3-D Low wing plane ..with a "Zipper" in the top of it ..From Great Planes .

So To .. Get To The Point ... Has anyone heard of a EPP Plane made for beginners ?? Like a High wing Plane Pusher or tractor motor setup .. I think of all of the "Beginner" designs and it seems like they are all Hi-wing models but that doesn't matter so much to me I'd just like a plane whatever configuration that's for beginners ..This Great Planes Yak would be great if it had a setup for beginners instead of 3-D...

I wonder if I could change The wing setup on this Great planes thing ... Not the best choice .. (Me Designing it) Does anyone know of a Beginner EPP Plane ?? Please ?? Please?? Thank You , Don J. http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/greatplanes/gpma1274.html

Since you've got your own radio, I'd suggest the Plug and Play (PnP) version of this plane. It's all EPP foam and it kinda sorta looks like a scale cub if you fly it high enough. ;-)

You can buy replacement everything for the PZ line as well, so if that wing finally looks too beat up to bother to try to repair, buy a new wing! Pretty cheap too.

Here's a beginner puting the Super Cub through it's paces with several crashes with no significant damage. In one shot, he slams it into a bush wide open throttle with no damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fBegiE71Uc&eurl=http://www.redrockethobbies.com/Hobby_Zone_Super_Cub_RTF_Electric_p/hbz7100.htm

Don't know why I didn't think of the good ole Super Cub earlier.

[diverdon]

Thanks Yossarian .... I do have a supercub and am posting a pic of it from the last flight .. Last week ... But to be a little fair I hadn't "Flown" it in a while and it was because I am a little scared of it ... One of the last times I flew it I broke the tail off ... Completely off ... Repaired that ... one time the motor mount broke off ... It's me ..not the plane .. But I have had the best luck and longest flights ,least damage from Slow Stick planes..

Well lets see if I can get that pic up again ... Mini Steve was asking about what was under the front of the plane and ...Yes it's the battery ... This is the only way it balances COG unless I use a bunch of weight up there .. Maybe I need to get a new fuselage and start over with this one ... UGH!! .. Oh that's right I do like working on this stuff .. I was an auto mechanic in an earlier life... 20 years ago

[yossarian]

That's totally fixable! You should have seen my funjet last weekend. Managed to turn it into several pieces but with some CA, was back in the air in about 30 minutes. I like how the foam tends to break cleanly, making gluing the pieces back easy. I tend to fly my foamies until at least 50% of the foam has been replaced by gorilla glue, that's how you know it's time to retire it. ;)

Just fly the super cub like your angry. You'll need a much more impressive damage picture before I can authorize a new plane, that ones practically mint!

:Q

[ministeve2003]

Thanks Yossarian .... I do have a supercub and am posting a pic of it from the last flight .. Last week ... But to be a little fair I hadn't "Flown" it in a while and it was because I am a little scared of it ... One of the last times I flew it I broke the tail off ... Completely off ... Repaired that ... one time the motor mount broke off ... It's me ..not the plane .. But I have had the best luck and longest flights ,least damage from Slow Stick planes..

Well lets see if I can get that pic up again ... Mini Steve was asking about what was under the front of the plane and ...Yes it's the battery ... This is the only way it balances COG unless I use a bunch of weight up there .. Maybe I need to get a new fuselage and start over with this one ... UGH!! .. Oh that's right I do like working on this stuff .. I was an auto mechanic in an earlier life... 20 years ago
It can't possibly balance with the battery that far in the front... they use a heavy nimh battery in the stock setup... put the battery back where it goes...

that plane ain't done.... first... the tail always breaks... design flaw... second, I have 2 of those with the front ripped completely off... I just epoxy'd them back and they're both still flying today...

ps, if you damage the rudder or elevator, just epoxy those back and put some tape on it... it works fine...

SK

[diverdon]

Thanks !!! Yose .. I know it is fixable and I will fix it and fly again .. The crash is what caused it but that battery hanging off the bottom there doesn't help .. I guess I could buy a smaller one and get it inside maybe .. The ones I have are all about the same 2000 Mah or so ... So I can have longer flights.. ????

Thanks again for your help ... 1 question ..where I go there is not a good place to do rolling takeoffs .. Do you think it makes any difference wether you toss it or do a rolling takeoff ... I was thinking Ha!(The Doctor tells me it's good to try new things.. "thinking"?) Maybe the plane would be more controlable with a rolling takeoff ... If I could get it up high enough 2-3 mistakes high and get it trimmed in I think I'd be OK ..

The 1 flight I ever had went that way ..with a slow stick ..got it waaaay up there then got it trimmed and just did football field size circles for 15-20 minnutes and somehow landed ok too .. Thaat was maybe a year ago and I am still stoked from it .. of course no one was there as a wittness but I know it happened ..

Still thinking about that true EPP plane .. I sent the company an e-mail about it .. Maybe I should tell them about my crummy flying ("Luck?") They might hire me as a test pilot .. If I can't break it then it's good to go ..

Well Off to work another late shift 1-10 ugh .. Thanks again .. Don J.

[diverdon]

It can't possibly balance with the battery that far in the front... they use a heavy nimh battery in the stock setup... put the battery back where it goes...

that plane ain't done.... first... the tail always breaks... design flaw... second, I have 2 of those with the front ripped completely off... I just epoxy'd them back and they're both still flying today...

ps, if you damage the rudder or elevator, just epoxy those back and put some tape on it... it works fine...

SK

Hey Steve ? .. glad you looked at the break and ok'ed it too .. I know where the cog is and belive it or not thats the only way it will balance .. I don't have the cog spec memorized but did set it up by the book .. Please let me know where you set yours at .. The measurement maybe I have mine to far forward but I dbout it with the way it wants to climb on take off ..The motor is a 2408-18 and the prop is a 10 X 4.7 ..

Thanks again for all the help .. Now I REALLY gotta get to work .. Have a good day .. Don J.

[ministeve2003]

Hey Steve ? .. glad you looked at the break and ok'ed it too .. I know where the cog is and belive it or not thats the only way it will balance .. I don't have the cog spec memorized but did set it up by the book .. Please let me know where you set yours at .. The measurement maybe I have mine to far forward but I dbout it with the way it wants to climb on take off ..The motor is a 2408-18 and the prop is a 10 X 4.7 ..

Thanks again for all the help .. Now I REALLY gotta get to work .. Have a good day .. Don J.

since you changed the motor... sounds like you need some down thrust on the motor to counteract the climbing... battery may help being forward for that, but that also makes it less manuverable, and prob stops it from "floating"

try flying with a smaller battery... I've flow it with as little as an 800mah lipo pack and as high as a 2250 3cell pack, the 2250 pack I cutout the battery box and slid it in vertical, it didn't need to be on the nose... so I'm sure thats wrong...

give it a nice "level push" (handlaunch) and let it fly out away from you... at about half throttle... don't touch the stick other than to make a small (very small) course correction... If it pulls up alot at this rate (with adjusting trim a click or two) then cut throttle and let it glide to a landing and check it out... it'll prob be thrust ange.... you'll want to put a small washer or two to make the prop shaft angle slightly down... do that and retry the test...

its also better to limit yourself to a couple 5 minute flights that way you don't have too much time to get scared or compaceint while flying...
SK

[diverdon]

Hi Steve ... Good going .. you really made me laugh when I read your post .. Thanks .. The part about shorter flights so I don't have as much time to be scared .. True but funny ... the truth is just funny sometimes ..

I did have the batery inside the Compartment under the wing at the front standing up .. vertical I guess youd call it ...forget for sure why I took it out a while ago..Maybe thinking the lower center of gravity is better ... Who knows .. I will try to get it back inside should be no real trouble ..

What is the COG Spec you are using on yours .. don't have my book right here but I can measure the mark on the bottom of the wing .. OK mine is marked at 1&5/8 inch back from leading edge for the COG ..

As far as the thrust angle I do have it set down and to the right (looking from the rear or as sitting in the "Pilots Seat") But maybe it needs to go even more ..then again I may be taking off with too much power I have found that with these more powerful motors that can cause a plane to climb too much on takeoff ... But I still do it sometimes .. That's one reason I wonder if it would be better to do a rolling takeoff .....

I will try the "Test Tosses" like you suggest I have done that before on some planes but I am sorta worried about breaking something on this one doin that . "Oh Well" That's what Glue is for...That method may show that I am laying on too much power in the begining ...

So Tell me are you still on your first Super Cub or have you "gone thru" 1 and are now on your second .. What motor / prop / battery do you use ??

Just re-read your post ..The small ...Very Small input on the stick part you suggested is a little problem I start out fine with that but freak out when it starts goin bad .. I used to be better at that part ... You know ...maybe back to the sim for a few hours would help it has been quite a while .. I also have the expo set pretty high to help slow down the surfaces and the Throws of the rudder and elev set at the low end of the travel but still sometimes things seem to start happening pretty fast...


OK This is Wayyyyyyy too long , sorry .. Guess I will try to get it back together and try again .. Day off is in 2 days .. work 8-5 tomorrow so better get some sleep now ... Thanks for all of you help .. Everyone ., Don J.

[yossarian]

Ministeve, that battery placement is very likely correct. Remember that the stock SC comes with a heavy 480 brushed pile of doo doo, plus it's geared. I can imagine replacing that motor with a 2408-18 with no gear reduction, makes the nose way lighter.

But Steve is still correct in that you could put the battery back in the fuse where it's supposed to go in the manual and then add some weight to the nose, like gluing some weight on the inside cowl to fix the CG.

General rule of thumb, 1/3 back from the leading edge is a good place to start your CG experiments.

And my thoughts on ROG take-off's is they are always preferrable. Only time to hand launch is if you can't ROG for whatever reason. Like no gear on the model to begin with or the grass needs to be cut but I insist on flying today.

The first advantage to running off the ground is your hands are safely at the controls before the plane is even moving (they are also more fun to watch!). The other main advantage when ROGing is you're allowing the plane to reach flying speed on it's own. In other words, the plane will lift off and start controlled flight when the plane is ready.

Really not much of an issue with the SC and some of these slowflyers, hand launching is easy. I've seen guys destroy hotliners by getting their tosses wrong, I've crashed a few myself just trying to toss them. I.E. throwing at a bad angle, or hitting the throttle too hard after a light toss and torque rolling into the ground.

Even though it's easy to toss a slow stick and SC, I really suggest getting comfortable ROG. You'll be glad you got the skills early for when you get some bigger planes, and yes, you will get more planes. :p

[ministeve2003]

I checked the weight of his motor, its 70grams, and I've used a motor that was 58grams without adding any nose weight... so its not a problem... move the battery back inside...

since you added down thrust... your problem is the dihedral of the wings with that powerful motor on it...

easyiest way to remove the dihedral (flatten wings) is to use velcro strips on the wingstruts... on the side that normally gets screwed on... and then put the opposite side velcro on the fuse, from then on you won't be using the screws... this will allow you to pull the wings flat....

your motor is pretty powerful for this plane so keep it around 50%-75% throttle most of the time... you wont need to be racing it..lol

hand launch it at 40%-50% throttle... give it throttle then just push it away from you...it doesn't need a throw.... (reason is you'll see it flys itself), get up 100ft... do a couple short flights, cruise around in long circles and cut throttle about 15ft up and it will float to a landing... slowly and gradually pulling back on elevator as it comes in...making sure the nose is level...
SK

[ministeve2003]

one other thing... stay with this plane untill you can fly it without worrying about crashing it... switching models is prob hurting you...
SK

PS, more sim time.... it always helps...

[diverdon]

Thanks for all of the time you spent on here trying to help.... it was very good of you and quite a lot in the Wattflyer Tradition , Don J.