Funtana S40 electric

[fdix]

Hello guys,

I'm building a Funtana S40 powered by an AXI 4120/18 with a 16x8 prop on 5s1p of the new Kokam 3200HD lipo cells.

This setup should give me about 3,7kg of thrust. Trusting the measurments made by Bernd König
http://www.bnhof.de/~ho1645/d_bl_axi.pdf

AUW should be about 2,5kg

Has anybody tried an electric conversion of the S40?

thx for any info!

[Jamonraz]

nice project, good luck =)
This should not be in the conversion forum..?

[fdix]

sorry I shouldn't have said "conversion" h9 specify that it is possible to use a hacker B50 with gearbox, but it is much more expensive than an AXI

[proptop]

I would be very interested in how your Funtana flys!
I have just bought an AXi 4120/14 (during H-L's sale) and an APC 14x7 to start with. I am thinking of the Kokam 3200's myself, but need to save up some $$$ for them and the ESC...
I was thinking of perhaps a 4S4P configuration.

[fdix]

Hello proptop. Have you had a look at the pdf with the measurements? With a 4120/14 and 4s lipo you should have about 3,57kg of thrust, but you must use a APC 16x8, the 14x7 won't give you much.
As for the lipos a 4s1p pack should do, infact the Kokam 3200HD can take up to 80amps for 30sec and 48amps continuous. The 4120/14 with APC 16x8 and 4s pulls 61amps. So no problems there ;)

As always with electric 3D aircraft, make them as light as you can! Better make 2 packs and fly 5 min each than fly 10 minutes with a brushless powered brick!

I will not be using standard servos for example: I'll use futaba S3150 digital servos. Weight 23g and have 46Ncm of torque @ 6V. More than enough but with 4 smaller servos you save quite some weight.

The landing gear will also become interesting. I will probably have to make it higher so to clear the 16" prop, will probably build it of carbon fibre :D

I'll keep you posted! Motor and esc have arrived today. As soon as I have everything together I'll try the setup on a Kabriolin 3D (roughly same weight) and let you know!

[Mike Parsons]

I installed a Mega 22/30/2 geared 4.6:1 swinging a 17x10 on a 5S3P in mine. Amps were mid 50's and power was more than enough. I ordered the 2.5" extended gear from Fiberlite to clear the 17" prop. I sold the plane last year and the power system was installed into a UCD 46.

[fdix]

Thanks for your reply Mike!
Do you still remember your AUW?

[Mike Parsons]

Thanks for your reply Mike!
Do you still remember your AUW?
I want to say 6 3/4 pounds.

[drvcrash]

Hello guys,

I'm building a Funtana S40 powered by an AXI 4120/18 with a 16x8 prop on 5s1p of the new Kokam 3200HD lipo cells.

This setup should give me about 3,7kg of thrust. Trusting the measurments made by Bernd König
http://www.bnhof.de/~ho1645/d_bl_axi.pdf

AUW should be about 2,5kg

Has anybody tried an electric conversion of the S40?

thx for any info!


I have a Twist conversion with the AXI 4120/18 , 14x7apce prop running 6s1p kokam 3200. Tons of power. weight is 5.5lbs

[fdix]

Long time I haven't written anything... Motor and ESC have arrived but I'm still waiting for the LiPos.

Here are some pics ;)

The other aircraft is a Kabriolin, which I'll use for testing the setup

[D King]

Yep, i did a funtana. Flew ok.

Mega 1625/4 turn swinging a 16x8 prop on a 6s1p tp 2100 pack. AUW was 4.5lbs. Sold the plane to a buddy and he put in a 22/30/3 on a 6s1p 3200 pack. A little over 5lbs AUW.

DK

[fdix]

Hello DK,
what do you mean by "Flew ok"? Have you noted any negative tendencies?

[D King]

It had good speed, about 50 to 60 mph but, the pullout was pretty wimpy. Plus the batts were on the bottom of the tank area so it added some coupling in knife edge. Other than that it flew as good as it did with a os 70 in it, or a little better in the 3D stuff.

DK

[fdix]

I'm soldering the lipo pack now... Big day is tomorrow. ;)

[fdix]

The Kabriolin flew great. AUW is 2335g. Speed is good and so il pullout, well small wonder with 3,45kg of thrust :D

I did 5min of mixed flying and used 1510mAh (pack is 5s1p kokam 3200HD)
In the end I used an APC 15x8, gives me about 46A and 7100rpm

Now I'll do a cuple of more flights untill I transfer the power system into the Funtana.

Will post some pics soon

[fdix]

Here are the promised pics. Today I did 8min 20sec... let's see how much capacity I've used. I'm preparing the funtana in the meantime

[proptop]

Very good! :cool: Thanks for the up-date...
I have gotten the motor mount and prop adapter for my AXi, and I am in the process of installing the servos...
Still $aving the money for the batteries...

Also, a few house-hold chores to finish first while the weather's still good...(painting the house...:rolleyes: )


So...how do you like those Kokam 3200's?

[fdix]

Well in 8 min 20 sec I used 2200mAh. So 10 minute flights should not be a problem.
So far I really like the Kokam 3200 cells. They barley get warm to touch after a flight!

You say that you are in process of installing the servos... Did you also get a Funtana?

What ESC will you be using? I'm using a CC Phonix 60 with good results.

[debhicks]

Beautiful Mountains. :) Pretty plane. Looks good in the air. With the mountains behind it. Mountain Fan!!

[fdix]

If there is one thing we have in Switzerland it is mountains :D

[proptop]

A 10 min. flight sounds pretty good to me...that's about as long as I usually fly that is.
I bought a .40 size Funtana a while ago, and started work on it...
I had a Tower .75 mounted, and did some re-inforcment of the firewall and L.G. area, but that was about it, because other work kind of interfered w/ things, ya know?!

Anyway...I'm finishing it this time, and w/ E-power!

I was also thinking about the Phoenix 60 for mine, or perhaps the Jeti?
The Phoenix cost less...
Does the Phoenix 60 do what you need/ want from it?

I think I will be going with 2, 2 cell 3200 Kokam's in series. That'd be a 4S2P wouldn't it? (14.8 V. and 3200 MAH)

[fdix]

Two 2s packs in series would be 4s1p... a 4s2p pack is composed of eight cells, two blocks of 4 cells put in parallel.

Yeah the Phoenix has everything you need!
For me the max programmable cutoff voltage could be higher... max is 12V. Because I fly 5s the cells would go to 2,4V which is too low even under load. So now I'm timing the flights and I'll fly based on the timer. A futaba 9z has all the nice timer functions you can play with :D
Anyway 12V is fine for you! You fly 4s so the cells get to 3V each, which is perfect...

When you program your Phoenix 60 be shure to set the correct cutoff voltage and set the cutoff type to Soft Cutoff!
With Hard Cutoff the ESC cuts the throttle instantly when the low voltage is reached. Not nice if you are in hover at a few feet above ground..

Here are my complete settings:

Cutoff Voltage: 12V
Current Limiting: Standard
Brake Type: Brake Disabled
Throttle Type: Auto Calibrating Throttle
Electronic Timing Advance: Standard Advance Timing (5°-20°)
Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff
Soft Start: Fast Start
PWM Switching Rate: 11KHz


If you want any other information feel free to ask ;)

[Rugar]

Yeah the Phoenix has everything you need!
For me the max programmable cutoff voltage could be higher... max is 12V. Because I fly 5s the cells would go to 2,4V which is too low even under load. So now I'm timing the flights and I'll fly based on the timer. A futaba 9z has all the nice timer functions you can play with :D
Anyway 12V is fine for you! You fly 4s so the cells get to 3V each, which is perfect...


Why not get yourself a Castle Link (Phoenix Link Cable) and you can set your LVC using the custom setting to any cutoff voltage you want.

Gerald

[fdix]

Why not get yourself a Castle Link (Phoenix Link Cable) and you can set your LVC using the custom setting to any cutoff voltage you want.

Gerald

Thanks for the tip! Will give it a go...

[fdix]

So the S40 is ready to go. Weight is 2500g. I hoped it would come out a little lighter... I'll post pics soon.

I tried the castle link program and it worked great.

How are you doing with yours proptop? I'll test it sunday morning probably!

[Jeff Boyd 2]

I installed a Mega 22/30/2 geared 4.6:1 swinging a 17x10 on a 5S3P in mine. Amps were mid 50's and power was more than enough. I ordered the 2.5" extended gear from Fiberlite to clear the 17" prop. I sold the plane last year and the power system was installed into a UCD 46.

Very helpful info in these related threads, Mike. I will also need to go for taller gear on mine. Do you have a contact for Fiberlite (I assume they do Carbon stuff) ?

[Mike Parsons]

Glad you found it useful Jeff. Here is the address for Fiberlite http://www.fiber-lite.com/

[fdix]

Here are a few pics... Motor mount is like the Kabriolin. Landing gear is 5mm carbon tube with 3,5mm glass rod inside. Where the tubes meet there are kevlar reinforcements.

Exact weight is 2486g. The wing weights a whopping 750g, so the Funtana will probably have a rather high moment of inertia on the roll axis.

No test flight yet. Weather was bad latley.

[fdix]

Test flew it today... I put the cg rater far back from previous experiences with .40 size aerobatic planes.

General flight was ok but knife edge was rather bad. Knife edge loops are impossible. The fuselage simply seems not to have enough area.

The things the funtana probably does best is hover and torque roll, it's very stable.

For all out 3D the plane is simply to heavy, I mean the airframe. Oh well that was the last .40 "3D" ARF for me

[proptop]

Glad the flight was successful, but it sounds like you're a little disappointed? Not quite enough power to weight?

I'm wondering now if the motor I have will be enough, or should I put it in a smaller/lighter airframe?

Do you think you'll continue with developing it or what?

I still haven't bought my batts or ESC so maybe I'll wait and try something else...

Thanks for the info...

Tom

[fdix]

Power to weight is fine! The problem is the funtana is heavy for it's size and the design is not optimal. I spoke with a funtana s90 pilot and he says that knife edge is also a problem with the s90. You can do a knife edge pass but you can't climb out in KE and go for a KE loop for example, and of course it has to be done at high speed!
In short the plane is fine for aerobatics but is unusable for KE manouvers.

The only way to make things better would be strip the covering an lighten it wherever possible and while I'm at it I would also modify the fuselage and give it some more height.

But that is too much woork in my opinion. I think I'll start designing my own plane and then have the parts cnc cut.

UPDATE:

a friend of mine just gave me an idea
http://www.rchobbies.org/images/han2800-450.jpg

[Jeff Boyd 2]

Hi fdix, where did you actually balance cg? . . looking at your pics with your battery position, I was thinking it may be tail heavy, as the AXI is much lighter than the recommended glow motors.

I saw a video of this plane flying in the UK . . great pilot . . and it actually flew like a Shockflyer. It looked very light on the wing. It was powered by a O.S. .91FX though ! ! It seems it's actually manufactured by ESM in China and supplied as the ESM Katana 40 in the Oceania area, and also marketed by YT International in the UK. . here's the link to the info and the awesome video . . http://www.ytinternational.co.uk/main/aerobatic/esmaerobatic/katana%2040/katanaspec_spec.htm

[fdix]

It is indeed tail heavy (3cm behind recommended CG), too tail heavy but not by much. But usually KE is better with a rearward CG.

I watched the video several times and in some situations (360 rolling circles and point rolls) you notice the plane doesn't track too well in KE. The knife edge pass is done at very high speed.

This is how my funtana flies. I might be making a great fuss about it but I fly rather knife edge heavy (a habit gained by flying super light F3Ai machines) so this disturbs me. I'll add Side Force Generators and see what happens!

[Jeff Boyd 2]

Thanks fdix, Based on this, I will start with a rearward cg. I hate nose heavy models, and your suggested 3cm sounds like the recommended cg is a little forward of optimum.

Yes, on closer look of the video, I think the KE is flown with almost full rudder on high rates ! I think KE loops would be out of the question. Oh well, as a fun electric model to throw around, it will probably be OK though.

[Jeff Boyd 2]

fdix. If you add side force generators, please add your progress to this thread. It would be a very interesting project !

[fdix]

Jeff I sure will keep you informed about the SFGs.
With the CG I'm going to experiment a little I'll try to get everything more forward to have a CG of about 1,5cm behind recommended

[fdix]

Haven't had much time lately. Made a new cf landing gear and advanced everything so that CG is now about 1cm behind recommended. The aircraft flies better (more precise) now. Haven't had time to finish the SFGs yet, so knife edge remains the same.

[Jeff Boyd 2]

Hi fdix and Mike, can you remember where you flew the CG on your Hangar 9 Funtana 40?

The instructions I have show 99mm from the LE (about 4"). This just looks way too forward, and I would be thinking about 140mm (5 1/2") looks more realistic. I want to position everything so as not to add weight. Can you help?

I will be putting my Katana together over the next few days.

Hyperion HP-Z4025-12 Outrunner
15 x 8 APCE prop
5S2P 4400mAh LiPo
Castle Creations Phoenix 45
I am looking at about 750W @ 43A static. Should be OK?

I'll do a build / flight report on the link I started http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1572

Thanks guys,

Jeff

[Mike Parsons]

Jeff,
I cant begin to remember where my CG was. I am pretty sure it was were the manual recommended it.

750 watts will be plenty on the Katana. I will follow your thread there.

Cheers,
Mike

[fdix]

The h9 instructions recommend a cg 135 to 145mm from LE, I flew with about 155mm. Latley I have had no time at all... So SFGs are not finished yet.

[Jeff Boyd 2]

It's just as I thought. With the CG at 99mm it would have flown like a spear. I'll start with 145mm.

Thanks fdix . . that's a great help.

[TManiaci]

Maybe I will convert my rebuilt Funtana 40 to Electric... We did it in Funtana 90 color scheme.

[Jeff Boyd 2]

Looks great Tman . . but what do you mean rebuilt it ? ? ? . . how does it fly?

Where did you get the taller landing gear? I need a set just like it.

Cheers, Jeff

[TManiaci]

Looks great Tman . . but what do you mean rebuilt it ? ? ? . . how does it fly?

Where did you get the taller landing gear? I need a set just like it.

Cheers, Jeff

Rebuild... after crash, totally destroyed. Tons of work to put it back together. Decided to make it match our F90 and Mini in Yellow.

You can get the landing gear from TnT GraphTech (http://www.tntlandinggear.com/store/shop/composite_landing_gear.htm). The F40 uses stock No. CLG-127 and is only $25. Very nice, we have the CLG-128 on the F90.

[Jeff Boyd 2]

Thanks, Tman. Nice rebuild . . I'll send you mine if I bury it . . hahaha. My repairs wouldn't look half as good as that.

Is that gear the CLG-127 (Funtana 40) or the CLG-128 (Funtana 90). The CLG-125 is an 80" Cap in their list.

[Jeff Boyd 2]

Mike, I sent Fibre-Lite a couple of emails, but got no reply. They do say on their site that they only deal with the U.S. and Canada, however I thought at least an acknowledgement of my request would have been common courtesy,

Thanks for your lead, anyway. Much appreciated.

[TManiaci]

Thanks, Tman. Nice rebuild . . I'll send you mine if I bury it . . hahaha. My repairs wouldn't look half as good as that.

Is that gear the CLG-127 (Funtana 40) or the CLG-128 (Funtana 90). The CLG-125 is an 80" Cap in their list.

Oops... sorry, you are right. F40 is the CLG-127. Was in a hurry.

Those guys are not the swiftest guys on the planet. It's a small company. They recently moved to Texas, and it took several weeks for my F40 gear to arrive. Believe me, it worth the wait though. The CF gear they make are beautiful, strong and light. We have beaten the h3ll out of the F90 gear with hard landings, very nice.

The new canary F40 flys very well. We have her on a Saito 72 with improved exhaust, and it is very strong swinging a 14x4W at 10,000 rpm. My only complaint is the tipstall rollout that it does on hard pitch manuevers. You learn to deal with it. Otherwise, a wonderful plane, but doesn't fly as well as the F90.

[Jeff Boyd 2]

Thanks again, Tman.

Is that the standard gear on your Mini Funtana ? . . I have a E-flite Mini Edge and I need new gear for it . . see thread http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=29815&postcount=34

Thanks, Jeff

[TManiaci]

Is that the standard gear on your Mini Funtana ?

Yes, that's the standard LG... but I modified them after reading of all the breakage everyone was complaining about. I laminated two CF strips to the inside faces with epoxy to beef up the break-points in the bends. It's seen some pretty hard landings and survives well. Not very pretty, but it works.

[fdix]

Oops... sorry, you are right. F40 is the CLG-127. Was in a hurry.

Those guys are not the swiftest guys on the planet. It's a small company. They recently moved to Texas, and it took several weeks for my F40 gear to arrive. Believe me, it worth the wait though. The CF gear they make are beautiful, strong and light. We have beaten the h3ll out of the F90 gear with hard landings, very nice.

The new canary F40 flys very well. We have her on a Saito 72 with improved exhaust, and it is very strong swinging a 14x4W at 10,000 rpm. My only complaint is the tipstall rollout that it does on hard pitch manuevers. You learn to deal with it. Otherwise, a wonderful plane, but doesn't fly as well as the F90.

Yeah I noticed the tipstall rollout too, harriers are not easy with this plane... I tried some snapflap for nice square loops or other maneuvers where you need a lot of lift quickly but I doesn't really seem to work.
I'm having too much fun flying indoor so the funtana is slowly getting dusty.
What I find strange is that there is no 1,5m "3D" plane that really does unlimited 3D.

Do you guys know of a plane in this size that really has the stuff?

[Devin McGrath]

fdix I have an electric Funtana 90 and what you have heard about them is right they do not like knife edge although mine did pull out knife edge pretty well with 3.5 hp in it:D the larger landing gear needed to do the e-conversion made it tuck to the gear even more than a normal one would that is why I plan on replaceing it hopefully wiht a QQ Yak or maybe a showtime 4D. We will see when it gets closer to spring.