PDA

View Full Version : Dumas Spad XIII


barmonkey
08-19-2008, 02:03 AM
Just curious if anyone has seen the Dumas Spad XIII. It is 35" wingspan and designed by Pat Trittle. I haven't found any info on the kit itself...other than the prototype build by Pat himself. It came out to 11.1 ounces, with a wing loading of 4 oz/sq ft, and flew on only 50 watts of power!

degreen60
08-19-2008, 03:22 AM
Take a look here. http://www.dumasestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=696&osCsid=t0m3shqsgtkke75070heuo19n6

barmonkey
08-19-2008, 04:01 AM
That's where I got the pic...looks like I forgot to supply a Link...thank Don. Tower Hobbies has it cheaper though. The Dumas site says it's 42" but it is really 35"...there's a bit more info at Tower BTW.

WWI Ace
08-20-2008, 11:41 PM
It's a 3 channel plane isn't it? Steve

barmonkey
08-21-2008, 03:18 AM
Yes, it is elevator, rudder and throttle. I suppose ailerons could be added without much difficulty. Although I really do like full house controls, I'd be tempted to just stay with the 3 channel set up for simplicity sake...plus weight savings and $$$ saving.

BTW, I ordered one through my LHS...it was probably in today...but alas...I have a promotional exam for work today so I couldn't pick it up. It will have to wait until Friday :(

GreenAce92
08-21-2008, 03:54 AM
wow it looks great, lol i love the wooden prop wannabe haha

barmonkey
08-21-2008, 04:31 AM
Hey now don't be dissin' dat prop!

GreenAce92
08-21-2008, 06:21 PM
Oh i wasnt its just you can tell its APC i like how its painted lol its a nice model(little cartoonish) but iz cool

7car7
08-21-2008, 11:03 PM
Gotta subscibe to this one, can't wait to see it. Seriously considering this one.

degreen60
08-22-2008, 04:27 AM
Oh i wasnt its just you can tell its APC i like how its painted lol its a nice model(little cartoonish) but iz cool

I believe this is a model of the SPAD XIII flown by Capt Reed Chambers at the Third Air Carnival at Koblenz in 1919. It was called "star-spangled".

barmonkey
08-22-2008, 10:45 PM
I agree that the stars and stripes look is a bit cartoonish, but as Don noted it is in fact a genuine post war scheme. I will probably go with a 5 color camo scheme...of course there are the earlier 4 color and the even earlier yellowish (straw?) versions.

The kit is designed for a stick mount gear drive. So I may have a use for all of those GWS brushed gear drives I have. Tower shows a different type of 280 gear drive to use, but that may require a bit of engineering to make work.

For the covering, I plan to use Doculam. The kit does include red/white/blue tissue, but this will requre the use of dope...I prefer beer or whiskey.

At any rate here are some obligatory photos...

barmonkey
08-22-2008, 10:47 PM
BTW...the box, and Dumas's web site state it is 42" wingspan....it is in fact 35".

barmonkey
08-23-2008, 06:08 AM
OK got these thingys done...Maiden Sunday! :D

Rudder and Elevator are 1/8 Balsa, and the stringers are 1/8 x 1/16...a very light construction indeed.

jofrost
08-24-2008, 03:14 PM
BarMonkey ,

I found ya ! Looking good , hopefully there won't be too many quirks with the Dumas instructions . I have built 2 : The Waco YMF-5 and Aeronca C3 and both had minor issues ( wire templates and one other thing ) but other than that go together pretty good .

They are lightly constructed ( as all of Pats designs ) but do fly nicely when set up the way intended . As mentioned just be careful when covering with doculam ( especially the wings ) . Pat generally uses Solite which is less aggresive shrinking .

BTW , whats the matter with the "Stars and Stripes " ??? I agree it is "cartoonish" too , but should make seeing it quite easy !

Looking forward to more progress , where this one is on my " to get " list along with his Neuport ...

-John

barmonkey
08-24-2008, 05:24 PM
Hey John! fancy seeing you here!

I only got one side laid out yesterday...so it doesn't look like the maiden will be today :Q
I went ahead and cut/sized all the parts needed for both sides before it started the first. This was pretty time consuming...but the second side should fall together pretty quickly. I have seen other builders lay wax paper over the first structure, and then build the second on top of that one. Not sure if I will do that...seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

When the fuse is finished, it should be a pretty solid and tough structure thanks to all of those stringers. Hopefully, this means that the Doculam won't warp or crush anything .

In a way I kinda like the Stars and Stripes...but I do prefer camo! While looking through my books last night...I did see some silly schemes...Shamrocks...and my favorite...light blue with red/white/blue polka dots!

tipsy mcstaller
08-24-2008, 05:30 PM
I am in the process of finishing up the structure on this plane. It went together very well, although I wasn't able to pull off soldering the landing gear. I went with CA glue soaked nylon line instead. I'll keep an eye on this thread, and see if you can learn from my multiple mistakes!

jofrost
08-24-2008, 05:56 PM
Barmonkey ,

I would post a link from RCG to here so others can follow along ( just a thought )

Looking good . I agree with the LG soldering . I do the same thing with Spiderwire and CA and is a lot easier to get things together and just as strong ( and lighter ) If it breaks , I'd hate to see what the rest of the model looks like !!

Polka dots ( ahhhh ) Would not see many of those at the field :D

BTW , what was the recommended power for this one ? I can't quite recall if it was a geared SP280 . Are you going that route ? or brushless ? I know you mentioned you had a good assortment of geared brushed setups . I used to like the GWS 350C till prices of comparable BL came down and can be had for peanuts ...

-John

barmonkey
08-24-2008, 06:19 PM
Welcome to Wattflyer jszeiter! Glad to see someone else building one of these. Feel free to post your progress...along with pics.

I too am not sure about soldering the landing gear...I'll certainly give it a try...although I may end up going the CA soaked thread method also. Bending the gear will be my biggest challenge. I suppose some sort of jig would be helpful.

I am pretty sure those crazy schemes were applied after victory was declared. No doubt applied after some heavy celebration!

barmonkey
08-24-2008, 06:48 PM
I found some errors in the plans. Specifically, Page 2 of the plan sheets. Parts 1&1A, 2A&2B, 3&3A are labeled correctly. There are actually two sets of 3&3A...therefore parts 4&4A should be labeled 5&5A...7&7A should be 6&6A...8&8A should be labeled 7&7A. The real Parts 8&8A (as well as 9&9A) are not drawn on the plan. I assume that this is as clear as mud, so I included some pics.

barmonkey
08-24-2008, 09:59 PM
Made a little more progress.I squared parts 1/1A and 2A/2B to the left side on top of a 1/4" piece of glass...pretty sure it won't ever warp on me.

I moved the plans over a bit on my board so the front could hang off the side. This allowed me to pin the frames up-side down to the plans...allowing me to ensure nothing was skewed when I glued the right side frame to 1/1A and 2A/2B.

At this point I am debating as to whether or not just gluing the bottom formers in and then doing the top. The instructions call for doing the top first...probably the same difference either way.

barmonkey
08-24-2008, 10:56 PM
Okey Dokey...I went with gluing the bottom formers first. You can see from the photos that I used the top formers and the cabane mount beams as spreaders to keep every thing somewhat square. I came up with that one all by myself! I also used some scotch tape to draw the sides together.

jofrost
08-24-2008, 11:54 PM
Looking good ! Thats a pretty beefy wing saddle for a Tritle design . Usually they are just a couple little sticks .:eek:

-John

barmonkey
08-25-2008, 01:15 AM
I'll tell you what needs to be beefy...the gear mounts. The rear mount is only 1/8 x 1/8 balsa! I'll hold off on that one for a bit

tipsy mcstaller
08-25-2008, 02:03 AM
Quick question: I went with the recommendations from Tower Hobbies, and may be regretting it... They suggested I get:

An Electrifly T-280 Ferrite Motor (7.2-9.6 volt)
Electrifly S280 5:1 Gearbox
Electrifly C7 Nano 5amp ESC/BEC
and a Lipo 7.4 volt 1250mAh 20 C (2 cell)

A couple questions:

There is no mechanical connection between the motor and the gearbox. Can I just epoxy it in there once I get the gears aligned?

Is this battery the right size for this ESC/motor?

The battery has a female Deans Ultra Plug, but the ESC has a little Micro plug - can I just solder a Deans Ultra Male Plug onto the ESC and go?

Also, the motor has another small orange plug on it, and the ESC has two 2mm banana plugs - should I just switch to the banana plugs?

Sorry about the newb questions, but I seem to roll along with kits, right up to the power system. I then come to a crashing halt of confusion. I need to develop some patience to learn how to match all this stuff up, so I'm not soldering new plugs onto everything... Any advice would be greatly appreciated.:confused:

barmonkey
08-25-2008, 02:26 AM
I have that very gearbox...I think it is marketed under Graupner also. In it I used a Graupner 280 which fit very snug, and needed no glue. You may want to post a question concerning the gearbox in the "Power Systems" section...to see if glue would be a good idea. Don't forget to put that pinion gear on first!

I am not sure why Tower suggested that gearbox though. It is a very good gearbox, but this is designed for a stick mount. A little engineering will be in order to make it work.

That battery looks to be a good size...2 cell is the way to go...you probably wouldn't want 3S as it would burn the motor up.

I'd go with the Deans plug and the banana plugs...those JST style connectors can be a little iffy.

barmonkey
08-25-2008, 02:51 AM
Looking kind of Spaddish!

I will let the fuse rest for a while...I hope to get the wings laid out tonight...

barmonkey
08-25-2008, 03:24 AM
Looks like the wings will have to wait...my building board is a bit too small. I checked the garage and found nothing suitable to use as a building board. Of all that junk in there...nothing!

J...I answered your questions on the previous page BTW.

barmonkey
08-25-2008, 06:34 AM
If anyone is interested in a 1/4 scale Spad...check this out! http://www.rcscalebuilder.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7345&PN=1&TPN=1

You will need to register to view the thread...which is at rcscalebuilder.com
The site is a bit slow, but worth checking out.

All I have to say is HOOLY WOWZA!

I'd like to add a bit of detail...mainly the reason this plane was built...a platform for the twin Vickers! ...and maybe some louvers...

jofrost
08-25-2008, 10:37 AM
Barmonkey ,

I had the same thoughts about the Aeronca and Waco . I think if you select some "hard grain " balsa you will be fine . I used it in my Waco and it weighs 14oz. with no trouble . Or some basswood of those dimensions ...

J ,

As far as connectors I agree with Barmonkey that JSTs can be iffy . They will work till they become worn . The best thing you can do is "standardize" your connctors . I use only Deans micro connectors . Typicaly I solder my ESC wires to the motors . And for battery connections I use the Deans micro polarized . If I am pushing more than 10 amps I switch the battery connector to a Deans Ultra ( but this is rare for me ) Hope this helps . It saves a lot of guess work to have all the same connectors .

-John

barmonkey
08-27-2008, 04:36 PM
Looks like I will be stalled until at least Friday. I decided to pony up and order a Great Planes Building board...with any luck it should be here by Friday.

I have added the top stringers...I can break those 1/16 x 1/16 stringers just by looking at them. I will wait to add the bottom stringers until I get the bottom wing and landing gear finished. That way I will be sure where and how...or if...I want to beef up the landing gear mounts.

Also, from looking at other drawings it looks as though the Spad XIII had only 5 stringers on the bottom. I may just add 4 more 1/8 x 1/16 stringers to the bottom. I don't see any weight gain by doing this as I will be replacing 8 1/16 x 1/16 stringers with the 4 1/8 x 1/16 stringers.

In the meantime I will try to bend the Cabanes and the landing gear. Anyone have helpful hints on soldering the landing gear?

FlyingMonkey
08-27-2008, 05:27 PM
When I did mine... I made sure to use plenty of soldering paste, and plenty of heat.

The less solder the better. The paste will suck it in, if it's showing, then you're using too much solder, or not enough paste.


that's all I have to say about that


:D

barmonkey
08-27-2008, 06:35 PM
Thanks Other Monkey :)

I was wondering if my soldering iron would generate enough heat. I think it is 35 Watts? The wire isn't that heavy of a guage, but I may beef them up. Wondering if one of those small butane torches would work better than a soldering iron.

I didn't think about using soldering paste. What kind of paste and solder did you use?

FlyingMonkey
08-27-2008, 06:55 PM
I forget, for this I probably used plumbing, not electrical.

I had some flexible wire, wrapped it around the two pieces of gear wire, and then smooshed in the paste. I heated it with the torch, and touched the solder to it. It sucked it right in.

barmonkey
08-27-2008, 07:51 PM
Aha! you did use a torch....and you said "smooshed"...guess there really isn't a more descriptive word.

FlyingMonkey
08-27-2008, 09:35 PM
Aha! you did use a torch....


burned myself with it too....

also, try to do it outside, so there's less chance of burning your house down.

barmonkey
08-27-2008, 10:03 PM
That'd be really bad considering I'm a Fireman!

Good news...just got back from my Local Hobby shop...and my building board was in! She's SWEEET! Also, Scott (LHS owner) told me I could solder them up at his shop.

barmonkey
08-31-2008, 07:31 PM
With any luck I'll have my wings started tonight...maybe finished by tomorrow night. For now I have some books laying over the plans to flatten them out a bit...they were folded not rolled.

At this stage, I plan to add Ailerons actuated by a single servo mounted in the center of the top wing. The servo will be accessible through a top hatch cleverly disguised as the wing reserve tank. I also plan to incorporate mechanical differential into the Ailerons by top hinging them. There are other means of achieving this: Using computer radio functions, but I will use only one servo to save weight...so that is out; and positioning the aileron's control horn in such a manner that will achieve differential...although I am not certain how...angling the control horn so it is in front of the rotating axis? I will keep with the plan's dihedral, which is only 3 degrees.

jofrost
08-31-2008, 07:40 PM
Barmonkey ,

OOOh ...Aelerons !!! Sounds like it should be nice . I kick myself for not hacking them into my Waco YMF-5 .

I hate the way they fold the plans too ...

Wish I had the extra $$$ right now . Just got a coupon for $10 off a $50 order from Tower .:( that Spad and DeHavilland Rapide is looking really nice !

-John

tipsy mcstaller
08-31-2008, 07:42 PM
Please post pictures of this aileron setup. I'm building without them, but would love to see how you do it! I've got my wings covered, and will be staring on the fuselage next. The power system is installed (with some engineering to make it work, as the gearbox was not made for a stick mount...) Are all gearboxes noisy? I've only used outrunners to date...

I'm watching this thread closely - I appreciate you posting your work.

barmonkey
08-31-2008, 08:12 PM
John, I was trying to keep myself from adding Ailerons...got to keep it simple...but I prefer Ailerons to Rudder/Elevator only. I'm not too worried about the weight gain...most of the weight will be at or in front of the C/G. Also, look at Horizon Hobby, I think the kit is $7 cheaper there.

jszeitzer, All gearboxes will be somewhat noisy compared to an outrunner. I don't recall the gearbox that I have (which is like yours) being all that noisy. Maybe a bit quieter than the GWS gearboxes (which I plan to use). I still may go brushless, but I will not make that decision for a while yet.

Feel free to post some pics of your own :) especially your gearbox mount. That may prove useful to someone else that Follows Towers recommendation.

Did you encounter any issues while building the wings?

jofrost
08-31-2008, 11:16 PM
Barmonkey ,

That is good to know . I watch Tower quite often . I got my two Waco kits for $28 . They go down pretty low , then bump them back up !

-John

tipsy mcstaller
09-01-2008, 02:39 AM
My gearbox kind of growls... not squeals or whines like my outrunner. Does this seem correct?

I'll post a picture soon;-)

barmonkey
09-01-2008, 03:37 AM
I'll say a growl is OK. Did you get the same Great Planes Gearbox as jofrost? ...The one Tower suggested? I think that I may have confused you guys earlier.

barmonkey
09-01-2008, 03:06 PM
Made a little progress last night. The instructions require you to make bowing formers out of foam board using the supplied templates. I photo copied the patterns, laid them on the foam and cut directly through the copied pattern and the foam at one time. I made 2 formers for each wing...the instructions have you make just one.

Two lengths of 1/16 x 3/16 Balsa are then soaked in water to soften them up. A bead of glue is applied between the two pieces and then wrapped and taped to the former. The instructions have you glue the tips of the two strips together before soaking/forming. I'm not certain it is really necessary. If you do, and they don't become unglued while soaking, start the forming with the glued tip at the straightest part of the former. Hopefully the pics while clear this up...

barmonkey
09-01-2008, 03:10 PM
I forgot to mention...this is where I made my first mistake....that I know of! I mistakenly tried to use 1/16 x 1/4 Balsa for the wing tips. This is for the trailing edge of the bottom wing. Fortunately, I realized this before I glued and formed them together. I did, however, cut them...requiring me to splice them back together.

barmonkey
09-01-2008, 03:38 PM
I managed to get most of the top wing finished, with the exception of attaching the leading edge, fixing the dihedral and adding the wingtips. I couldn't get the little pieces of the center section trailing edge (A9,A10) to line up just right with the plan. Also, the trailing edge (A1,A12) ended up 1/16 short on the ends. Not really a mistake, it should work out OK. The larger of the most inner ribs (the first R3 from the center) needed to be trimmed a bit at the trailing edge. Likewise, the most outer rib (R5) on both sides needed to be trimmed a bit at the trailing edge. Clarification: I am referring to the notch at the rear of the rib which lies on top of the trailing edge.

Attaching the wing tips looks like it could be a bit tricky. The formed wing tips will need to be angled up from the Leading Edge Spar to the Center Spar (A2) and back down to the Trailing Edge (A13/A12). Furthermore, this will make adding Ailerons more difficult than I first imagined.

The only part of the bottom wing that has been glued is the center section...the other parts have just been laid out on the plan.

barmonkey
09-02-2008, 05:31 AM
Got two wings done...OK...mostly. I still need to glue the LE spar and add dihedral, but first I need to figure out the Aileron situation. The formed wing tips haven't been added either. The glue held on only one out of the four, so I had to re-glue. At first, I was a bit concerned that the way they are affixed to the wing would complicate things. That really shouldn't be an issue.

7car7
09-02-2008, 07:55 PM
At this stage, I plan to add Ailerons actuated by a single servo mounted in the center of the top wing. The servo will be accessible through a top hatch cleverly disguised as the wing reserve tank. I also plan to incorporate mechanical differential into the Ailerons by top hinging them.

Plane is looking great!
You can check out what I did for aileron differential with a single servo - not sure if it would work for your situation, but something to consider.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=467648&posted=1#post467648

barmonkey
09-02-2008, 10:20 PM
Nice! I'll study your set-up...All options are open still. Even having the servo in the fuse connected to a bell crank on the lower wing just like the real one.

barmonkey
09-04-2008, 08:09 PM
I decided to go ahead and glue the wing tips on as they were intended, rather than build them flat to the plan. After looking at Pat's pictures, I decided that I liked the illusion of a thinner wing. Also, the creation of the Ailerons didn't seem like such a daunting task after I studied it for a while.

I got both Ailerons cut out...I only broke one spar loose in the process! With the use of a razor saw, the side of my square to hold the spar steady and an Exacto the process was pretty easy. I did consider cutting the spars before assembly, but decided that it would be easier to get the spars and trailing edge lined up correctly.

I decided to use 1/8 Balsa to fill the gaps at the TE between the newly freed spars (is there a name for this?) The 1/8 Balsa will be cut/sanded to shape at the tips when I clean up the rest of the wing. After looking at my work, I am am beginning to think that 1/8 is a bit thick...but after some sanding to gain some clearance it probably wont be so bad.

barmonkey
09-05-2008, 01:04 AM
Note to anyone building the Spad:

I don't believe the instructions mention this...where are they anyway...the center section of the bottom wing will need to be notched in the front and back of both sides for proper fitment. This should be a lot easier without the wings attached.

barmonkey
09-05-2008, 01:14 AM
Oh yeah, I got these guys finished. Still a bit of sanding to do.

barmonkey
09-05-2008, 03:39 AM
Couldn't resist a couple of mock up shots...

tipsy mcstaller
09-05-2008, 01:15 PM
Looks good! What are you going to cover it with? I used Coverlite, and it seemed to work fairly well, despite my poor workmanship.

barmonkey
09-05-2008, 06:52 PM
I plan to use Doculam...which is a document laminating film. I have about 500 feet of this stuff so I can make a lot of mistakes. I have some Coverlite also, but I purchased it for my Albatros and at $5.50 for 36" I figure it will cost me $22 to cover it...I want to keep the cost down.

Have you covered your wing yet? I forgot to weigh mine before I added the Ailerons...If you have a scale, I would appreciate it if you could weigh your top wing for me.

How did you end up mounting that motor?

tipsy mcstaller
09-05-2008, 10:05 PM
I'll try and get that weighed for you this weekend. I mounted the motor to two pieces of 3/16 by 1/4 inch balsa glued to the face of the firewall. I'll try and get a picture posted. I discovered, incidentally, that the motor shaft was too long for the gearbox. I "dremeled" the length down a bit, and applied some lithium grease. It runs a whole lot more quietly now. Thank God I didn't try to fly it the other way... I'm sure it would have failed - every hour I devote to this kit results in more fear about that maiden flight!

barmonkey
09-05-2008, 10:52 PM
Way to go Tower! :roll: First selling the wrong gearbox for the plane...and then selling a motor with a shaft that is too long.

Glad to hear you got your motor situation worked out. How did you end up fixing the motor to the gearbox?

I'd like to see those pictures of your plane. It sounds like you are much farther along than I am...and I thought I was making good progress. I'd like to see how you mount your landing gear. I still haven't bent mine up yet. Perhaps I'll do that this evening. I bought a hobby torch at Harbor Freight for $10, and just bought some Stay-Brite silver solder and Flux today. The Stay-Brite solder is what Pat Trittle (the designer) says he uses, so I'll give it a go.

barmonkey
09-06-2008, 06:54 AM
Here is my tentative plan for the servo and linkage layout for the Ailerons...

The servo will be mounted in a hole cut low into the center span-wise spar (A1). This will be reinforced with some thin ply on the front of that spar. The reinforcement should place the servo horn just ahead of the hole in the center axis Rib (R1). A scale-like panel will cover this area hopefully giving good clearance for servo/linkage adjustment or replacement.

The servo horn will be the "X" horn with two of the arms cut off to form an upright "V". I assume this will give some differential.

The Aileron control horn will be mounted to the existing A8 already in place on the Aileron itself.

There is a bit of tension in the push rod, causing the wing to flex a bit. This worries me that it may induce an unwanted flex in the wing. I considered using Golden Rod Cable, but am afraid that it may have too much flex on the "push" side...thus negating any benefit of the differential set-up.

tipsy mcstaller
09-06-2008, 01:18 PM
My top wing weights around 1.4 ounces or around 45 grams... I don't have a digital scale (yet), so I'm sure it's a little inexact. (covered)

barmonkey
09-06-2008, 02:44 PM
Is that with the covering?

tipsy mcstaller
09-06-2008, 03:54 PM
yes

tipsy mcstaller
09-06-2008, 03:57 PM
and two decals

barmonkey
09-06-2008, 10:53 PM
Looking Good! I didn't realize the Coverlite would be so shiny.

My wing is 50 grams so far...all parts including servo, control rod etc...and no covering. I am thinking that I should end up adding around an ounce.

Thanks for the pics!

degreen60
09-07-2008, 12:15 AM
and two decals

What color are you using? It looks like it maybe a good match to use to make repairs on my GP SE5A.

barmonkey
09-07-2008, 01:57 AM
Looks like Dark Green Coverite Coverlite to me Don...which is the only shade of green in the Coverlite line.

tipsy mcstaller
09-07-2008, 02:55 AM
That's the color! Now if only someone could show me how to lay down a seam perfectly flat I'd be completely set! :mad: It was like gift wrapping a bowling ball doing the fuselage... I ended up using a heat gun *very carefully* to get it to shrink up nice and flat... Except for the seams...

Can you guys point me to the best link for covering instructions? And, is it inherently harder to cover using this ultralite stuff as opposed to "normal" coverings?

barmonkey
09-07-2008, 03:44 AM
That's the color! Now if only someone could show me how to lay down a seam perfectly flat I'd be completely set! :mad: It was like gift wrapping a bowling ball doing the fuselage... I ended up using a heat gun *very carefully* to get it to shrink up nice and flat... Except for the seams...

Can you guys point me to the best link for covering instructions? And, is it inherently harder to cover using this ultralite stuff as opposed to "normal" coverings?

I wish that I had some good advice to give...but this will be my first covering job! There is a 3 or 4 part series posted on You-Tube. I can't remember the title though...something like "Covering with Monocote"

barmonkey
09-07-2008, 03:47 AM
I found it...it is five parts...brought to you by RCUniverse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N96v_xwi4c&feature=related

tipsy mcstaller
09-14-2008, 02:55 AM
How's it coming Barmonkey? I've got my covered completely now, with the gear on... Next up the horizontal and vertical stabs. I'll get some more pictures up soon.

A couple issues...

I ran the rigging thread through the hole in the side of the fuse with a sewing needle before I covered the bottom. It would be impossible otherwise...

I am not looking forward to making the top wing fit onto the struts and cabanes... I just refuse to believe that it will all line up... We'll see.

This kit just goes on and on...

barmonkey
09-17-2008, 03:08 AM
Hello J, glad to hear that you made progress. I hope those struts line up for you..just don't glue anything until you are sure.

As for me, I haven't made any progress...been super busy with work and things on the homefront. I was actually going to respond to your message Sunday morning. But the remnants of the Hurricane came through and knocked the power out...just came back up this afternoon!

tipsy mcstaller
09-18-2008, 01:54 AM
I just fit the top wing onto the interplane struts and the cabane struts... It was not pleasant trying to locate the little pin holes for the cabanes through my opaque green covering! It seems to be aligned properly, however. I'm going to glue the top connections on tomorrow morning, once the bottom connections dry.

Then it's on to the rigging and finishing details! (which is when it starts to get a little more fun for me...) This has been a somewhat over-ambitious second balsa kit build... Once I get things all rigged up, I'll post some pictures.

Any thoughts on how this thing should fly? I'm used to aileron foam models (Parkzone, GWS, etc.) and frankly don't have any real three channel only experience.

barmonkey
09-19-2008, 12:54 AM
Glad to hear those struts lined up for you. Mine should be pretty easy to locate if I still end up using the Doculam for covering...it's clear!

I may have some time Saturday and Sunday to get something done...I hope. I was really happy with my initial progress. But then there was my bright idea to add Ailerons. I'd probably have this thing covered by now If I hadn't made that fateful decision.

I prefer Aileron control to Rudder/Elevator control...it just never seemed natural to me. I do have three planes without Ailerons: GWS Slow-Stik; Electrifly Jenny; and GWS Pico Tigermoth. All of these planes require a no wind situation to have an enjoyable flight in my opinion...although I have managed to fly the Tigermoth backwards...that was pretty cool.

The plane should fly just fine on Rudder/Elevator control. Just don't expect to do axial rolls and the such. It is designed to be a lazy flier, so just expect gentle cruising and maybe some loops...and watch out for that wind.

tipsy mcstaller
09-21-2008, 03:04 PM
Well, all the detail was done. I took it to the field. Powered it up, and it couldn't even roll in the grass. It drove lazily around on the jogging path without even a nod in the direction of taking to the air.

So I brought it home and checked everything out. Good 'ole Tower sold me GWS 9X4.7 props - Tritle wants me to use 9X7 - would this make all the difference I need?

I stupidly followed Tower's advice regarding the powerplant- it's a electrifly T-280 coupled to an electrifly s-280 3.5:1 MPI gearbox. Please tell me the prop will make the difference... If not, please let me know what I should buy...

Incidentally, the plane looks great, but as for flying --- not so much...:o

degreen60
09-21-2008, 04:04 PM
I stupidly followed Tower's advice regarding the powerplant- it's a electrifly T-280 coupled to an electrifly s-280 3.5:1 MPI gearbox. Please tell me the prop will make the difference... If not, please let me know what I should buy...

Incidentally, the plane looks great, but as for flying --- not so much...:o

After I had a brush motor and gear box only last four flights I no longer waste money and time even installing them. I am now flying a Great Planes SE5A on a 2410-09Y outrunner with a 10x8 prop. It will fly slow on 2s lipo and almost go straight up on 3s. You can find this motor with ESC here. http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4707&Product_Name=TowerPro_BM2410-9T_/_18A_BEC/_9x6E_Prop_Combo With shipping will probably cost about $20. If your spad is larger than my SE5A you will need a larger motor.

barmonkey
09-21-2008, 05:11 PM
Glad to hear you finished it...but no flight is better than a crash on a maiden any day in my book! I think that the main reason that it didn't fly is that you didn't post any pictures :D

Seriously though, before anyone can can help you...we'll need a little more info. If possible, weigh your plane...with and without your battery. Pat's prototype came in at 11.1 ounces. As a novice builder, I immediately figured mine would come in heavier than that. With the addition of Ailerons and a heavier GWS 350 motor/gearbox I hope to come in well under 15 ounces. Don is correct about the wonders of brushless power, but our planes ...even though they are a similar size...shouldn't weigh any where near the GP SE5A's 20+ ounces.

Also, what battery are you using...2S lipo? How old is it? If you have a Wattmeter you can see if your battery is sagging under load. If you don't have a Wattmeter, GET ONE! I firmly believe that anyone flying electric planes must have one of the invaluable tools.

Oh yeah don't forget those pics :ws:

tipsy mcstaller
09-21-2008, 07:01 PM
It weighs around 11 ounces without the battery... The battery is a brand new Thunderpower 1320mah 7.4 volt battery. Advertising states that it weighs 58 grams... I don't have a wattmeter, but will get one soon given your advice.

I will DEFINATELY post pictures tonight. I promise. Just please remember it's my first balsa build in a LONG time.

Please help me. All the expectations of a maiden, sunk by a plane that lazily taxied around. It was hell. But definitely better than a crash...

tipsy mcstaller
09-21-2008, 07:41 PM
Now will you help me make it fly???

barmonkey
09-21-2008, 08:03 PM
Ha ha...now that the magic anti-flight gremlins have been exposed to cyberspace...all should be well :D

Looks very nice...I hope mine looks that good.

I have been doing some research for you. Pat suggested at the beginning of his build that he was going to use a geared 280...unfortunately he never said what gearbox/gear ratio he used. He did use the same battery and did state that he used a GWS 9x7 prop. I haven't found any info concerning suggested props for that motor/gearbox.

If memory serves me , I was using an APC 9x6 SF prop. This was on a heavier plane...my Alfa P-47...14-15 ounces. Also, I had a different motor (graupner 280) but they may actually be the same motor. It flew, but was way underpowered. I moved to a geared 300 after 2 flights...then went brushless!

Here's an idea...remove the cowl...hopefully you can access the motor's can with your high tech temp meter (finger). Run the motor up full throttle with that 9x7 for a few seconds. stop the motor and touch the can...warm is OK...Hot is not of course.

barmonkey
09-21-2008, 08:07 PM
One thing to note: Pat stated that his wanted to climb during take-off...so be prepared to use a little down elevator to keep it somewhat level until it reaches speed. Too steep a climb and you'll definately experience a stall.
The 280 is no powerhouse...but once it is up you should be able to putt around on half throttle. You will certainly need more throttle to loop of course, and you may want to use a little more juice in your turns also.

barmonkey
09-21-2008, 08:21 PM
Now a question for you: What wheels did you use?

Also, If it's not too much trouble...I'd like to see your battery hatch and mount.

barmonkey
09-21-2008, 08:58 PM
I have posted a question about your issue over at RCG in both the Power Systems thread and the Spad XIII thread. Hopefully someone will have an answer.

tipsy mcstaller
09-21-2008, 09:15 PM
Thanks for all of your help! I used the MPI wheels - 3 inch I believe. They're fine if you cover the modern looking spokes... I did not put a battery hatch on it, just left the area between former one and two open to the air at the bottom. Serves to cool the motor I like to think- I don't think Tritle ever gave us plans for a hatch of any kind...

I'm going to pick up some 9x7 props, and see what happens... I may take the whole thing over to my LHS and let them figure it out. What power system are you going to use?

barmonkey
09-21-2008, 09:20 PM
Dr. Kiwi suggsted that a GWS 10x6 HD prop would have more thrust and the same Amp draw.

jofrost
09-21-2008, 11:59 PM
J ,

Your Spad looks great . Do hang in there , better to have it right with enough power than have something bad happen .

I remember when I maidened my Dumas Waco YMF-5 it almost got dorked on takeoff due to a bum ESC that would cut out abrubtly :eek:

I would still give Pat Tritle a try . He is a great guy that is always willing to help out ( especially with one of his designs )http://www.patscustom-models.com/

-John

tipsy mcstaller
09-22-2008, 01:18 AM
I already PM'd him on RC Groups at your recommendation... I think I'm going to try the 9X7 prop, since that is what he was flying on the prototype. If that doesn't do it, then I'm going to get another power plant.

I may have dorked up the gearbox, as this was my first one... I lubed it, and tried to ensure that everything was fitting properly, but, who knows?

tipsy mcstaller
09-22-2008, 02:14 AM
I just pulled the cowl, took the motor out of the gearbox, fiddle around, and decided everything was in there the way it was supposed to be in the first place! I'll pop the 9x7 on there when I get to the LHS, but I may just pick up a bigger motor/gearbox when I'm there... Can't hurt to be prepared.

jofrost
09-22-2008, 10:39 AM
J ,

If you are determined to use a brushed setup , maybe your LHS has one of these in stock which works well with a 9x7 http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V197541&pid=T433964

Should give you enough power on a 9x7 ( somewhere between 50-70W ) I used to use these back before brushless & lipos and worked great .

-John

7car7
09-22-2008, 04:06 PM
J ,

If you are determined to use a brushed setup , maybe your LHS has one of these in stock which works well with a 9x7 http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V197541&pid=T433964

Should give you enough power on a 9x7 ( somewhere between 50-70W ) I used to use these back before brushless & lipos and worked great .

-John

Exactly what I was going to say. I still use a 350 in my Tigermoth. My moth is a bit heavy at 13oz ready to fly weight. The 350 with a GWS 9x7 does VERY well. Quite fast, and lipo battery (2 cell) lasts quite a while. I'll get 20 minute flights if not being too crazy.

Here's a trick I like to use before a maiden of a new power plant - hold the plane by the fuse, just in front of the tail group. Point it straight up, and give full throttle. This type of plane (Appx. Scale like flight, perhaps better, but not a 3D or a top speed screamer) should be able to tug at your hand a little bit. I like to get mine to almost pull itself straight up against the hand. In reality, NONE of my planes will hover, but they will go vertical for just a moment.

I'm guessing that your plane with it's power system will not come close to tugging at your hand.

I'm also guessing (truly a guess, I'm pretty limited in my experience) that if you had enough power, and your gear box wasn't too restriced from grease, your plane should be able to get off the ground with the current prop, but once up it may not stay up long, and will be at full throttle. I'm only basing that on my Tigermoth, in that it will fly with an 8x6, or a 9x3.5 (IIRC), but it's a pig with those, and it really likes the 9x7.

So, after this long winded speech, I'd say you need more motor, or a 3 cell, or there's something wrong with the gear box. But not a different prop.

BTW, lovely plane. You did a great job. I've GOT to get a SPAD of some sort!

tipsy mcstaller
09-22-2008, 11:39 PM
Well - I went to my LHS in a fit of despair this afternoon. And they capitalized on it (as they usually do). I walked out with an e-flite 370 brushless, and a 25amp esc with a 9x5 prop). Now I'm worried that I'll tear the firewall out of it!

Too much? (It certainly was too much $, but I really love this model, and I don't want a stall due to underpowering it).

barmonkey
09-23-2008, 01:14 AM
Glad to hear you went with the brushless...although I was really curious as to if the Tower suggested set-up would have a chance of working. I don't think that the 370 is overkill...you'll have the option of going with 3S or 2S...and it'll probably do fine on the 2S.

The E-Flite motors are indeed a bit pricey but they are of outstanding quality...I have only used their Park 450 and 480 motors. The ESC's are very nice also...Although that 25 Amp version is a bit of overkill. But you will probably need the extra weight to balance anyway...and then you can use it on a larger motor in the future.

tipsy mcstaller
09-23-2008, 02:27 AM
I've stiffened up the front end of the plane a bit (since I'm not using the stick mount...) I'm looking forward to seeing how this thing flies...

Now back to you! How's the build coming?????????

degreen60
09-23-2008, 07:00 PM
I like extra power. Not for flying but to use when I get into trouble. Helps keep my planes out of trees.

barmonkey
09-23-2008, 08:23 PM
I agree Don, need that extra bit up punch to avoid the magnetic force of the trees.

J, I still haven't made any progress...things haven't lightened up for me until today. Several 12 hour days working on side projects (Real-Estate) and the 24 hours at the fire station aren't leaving me much energy to get anything done. Plus, the extra work of doing the Ailerons...I need to make a mock-up of my single servo control, and prove that the differential will work. It's been about two weeks since I have made any progress, and that really gets my blood boiling!

jofrost
09-23-2008, 10:16 PM
I've stiffened up the front end of the plane a bit (since I'm not using the stick mount...) I'm looking forward to seeing how this thing flies...

?????????

J,

I'm surprised your LHs didn't sell you one of these
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=EFLM1915
Would have mounted your new Park 370 right on the stick that was in it !

You won't be dissapointed going brushless . I have 4 Eflite outrunners and they all work great . In the future if you are looking for cheaper alternatives to Eflite motors , let us know . There are many great motors out there .

-John

barmonkey
09-24-2008, 12:51 AM
OK...got er done!

barmonkey
09-24-2008, 12:54 AM
Probably won't fool anyone with that...it's actually a 1/48 Testor's Spad XIII I built several years ago. Nothing fancy...just built it, painted it and stuck decals on.

tipsy mcstaller
09-24-2008, 02:10 AM
you had me there for a moment.

barmonkey
09-24-2008, 03:54 AM
"you had me there for a moment."

And it's not even April 1 :D

Just to prove that I have been working on the plane I have included the attached pic. No... I am not going to use a foam wing. This is my mock-up to prove to myself that the different Aileron differential set-ups work. It is a rush job, using a dull knife...so foamie fans please be kind. It took about ten minutes to put together...and about 2 1/2 hours to dig everything up to build it.

I originally wanted to build a shortened version of the actual wing out of Balsa with the servo in the center. The foam wing idea proved to be a pretty easy and quick way to do it (excluding hunting for stuff). I decided to put the servo directly in front of the Aileron, both due to ease of fabrication and the fact that the servo and Aileron don't know where each other lie in space.

In my first test, I moved the control horn forward of the hinge line....

I will next test using the "X" servo horn idea. This involves placing the "X" horn on the servo so it forms an upright "V". I am not even going to try to explain why this is supposed to work...as I may confuse others as I have been confused. It is related to the Ackerman Theory http://members.cox.net/bdfelice/Ackerman/ackerman.htm

UPDATE: I removed my original findings from the above text due to inconsistencies...

7car7
09-24-2008, 03:43 PM
The "V" on the single servo does work well. Very simply, one of the pushrods is traveling towards the aileron, and the other is simply moving sideways across the servo rather than past it. Then when the servo is activated the other way, it's just the oposite push rod doing the moving, while the other just sort of sits there.

I tried this on a Tigermoth (Pico). It had great differential, but I was told it didn't work due to the undercambered wings, and so much dihedral.

I'm sure it will work great on your model.

tipsy mcstaller
09-27-2008, 05:23 PM
Maidened today! Rolled out in no time at all, ballooned then went over onto one wingtip (breaking it I might add). Tried again, made sure I added some down elevator when it was ready to leave the ground, then it flew fine. Seemed a little tail heavy... trim is a mess. Anyway, I was able to fly it nicely at low speed all over the field, and land it reasonably well (rolled for a sec before nosing over). Flies like a real slow-flyer. Not a speed demon... Would love to see what ailerons do to its flight characteristics.

barmonkey
09-27-2008, 06:21 PM
Good to hear you got it to fly! Hopefully the wing tip will be an easy fix.

What battery and prop did you end up using? Did yo stay with the 2S TP?

To avoid the nose-over, you could try some up-elevator on landing to stick the tail to the ground.

WWI Ace
09-27-2008, 09:49 PM
That's good advice on landing WWI birds Barmonkey. That is my technique for not flipping over. It works most of the time!! Steve

tipsy mcstaller
09-28-2008, 02:03 AM
I'm using the 2cell Thunderpower. I flew it again (too much wind, but had to do it anyway...) and after some thought here's my opinion:

1) NO wind, and I mean "No" wind can be sustained easily by this plane. I truly think at one point it was flying backwards! I was pushing it, and should have put the plane away, but... I just had to try.

2) Without full down elevator trim, this plane wants to balloon constantly. Mine wanted to porpoise around the sky until I dialed in the down elevator. I'm assuming this is because it is tail heavy. I'm going to put some weight up front (how much would you recommend to start?)

2 and 1/2) Takeoffs should not be done in the "Parkzone" manner (which is what I know). This is comprised of jamming on full throttle, ruddering to the left and pulling up to get away fast. This plane just goes vertical. Slow application of throttle, gentle ruddering to keep it straight, and no (or very very little) up elevator get a nice scale takeoff...

3) Brushless is absolutely the way to go - you just fly it at half throttle, and have plenty of power to get you out of problems, except...

4) Trees are indeed magnetic. I hit a small tree with my undercarriage after which the plane came to the ground. Needless to say I have some work to do on it... Nothing that is overly difficult, but it pulled the gear down in front, which of course shattered the structure of the underbelly. So, back to cutting and gluing tiny little 1/16 x 1/16 pieces of balsa onto the stringers. Luckily, when carefully done, this covering doesn't show patches easily. By next weekend it will be ready to go again.

I did manage to stick a landing before the tree attacked the plane... It's really a nice thing to see in the sky... I'll try to get in a video, if the weather lets me take it out again. It's not going out, however, unless it is dead calm.

barmonkey
09-28-2008, 02:09 AM
Do you think a little down thrust could help the ballooning?

tipsy mcstaller
09-28-2008, 02:15 AM
Would you try that prior to adding nose weight? And if nose weight, how much would you recommend? If down thrust, just a tiny bit of shim on the motor mount? (Remember, mine is not a stick-mount.)

Any advice would be appreciated.

tipsy mcstaller
09-28-2008, 02:16 AM
btw I'm using a 9x6 prop.

barmonkey
09-28-2008, 02:22 AM
Not using the stick mount works to your advantage, just shim the motor at the top. Adding the nose weight would be probably be the easiest to start with, but be aware that making the plane too nose heavy may reduce the effectiveness of your rudder.

barmonkey
09-28-2008, 02:29 AM
I did plan to get some work done today, but I went to the Hobby shop to get some sheet Balsa and the owner informed me that the R/C boat club was having their year end race today. Needless to say I spent most of the day there!

I managed to work some of the fuse stringers loose while scalloping the top stringer formers...so now I need to wait for glue to dry...AAARGH!

barmonkey
09-28-2008, 02:37 AM
Scalloping da formers...

tipsy mcstaller
09-28-2008, 02:40 AM
That's a great idea! Next plane...

barmonkey
09-28-2008, 02:53 AM
kind of wish I would have saved it for the next plane myself :)

Posted below are the colors I have right now if I go with the 5 color camo. The brown on the top will not be used...fifth color is black and I have another color picked for the bottom. The colors aren't accurate due to the lighting conditions.

barmonkey
09-28-2008, 03:25 AM
As I mentioned a couple of pages ago, I am using five 1/16 x 1/8 stringers on the bottom rather than ten 1/16 x 1/16 plus one 1/16 x 1/8 stringers. My 3 view drawings and some photos show that there were only 5 stringers on the bottom. I chose to go with 1/16 x 1/8 rather than 1/16 x 1/16 in the hopes I would not lose any strength. The formers will be scalloped just like the top.

barmonkey
09-28-2008, 05:49 AM
I got the scallops mostly finished...still some cleaning up to do.

Now I can turn my focus to the front...not the "War Front"...a little early for that :) I know this wasn't designed to be a true scale model, but there are a few things I would like to change and incorporate into my build.

First, the two little things that are the reason this plane was built...the twin Vickers! In the beginning, I wanted to just build some simple paper machine guns and taper the bottoms to conform to the top of the covering. Now, I am considering adding the gun troughs and making some nice fairly detailed Vickers guns to fit. One side note is that on the real Spad XIII, these troughs actually came through to the trailing edge of the cowling...I am not going to change the cowl to allow for this.

Second, the two stringers that run along the sides of the plane do not run all the way to the front. All of the panels forward of the cockpit were metal. So I am considering sheeting the front. I added some weight aft of the C/G so I hope this won't put too much weight forward of the C/G. As a bonus, I will have something to attach the exhausts to...were we supposed to just glue them to the covering?

Then, I want to add the louvered panels on the sides and the three on top of the motor. I am not sure how I will tackle this. I will either make some decals and hint that louvers are there, or I may make the panels out of litho plate...including real louvers.

tipsy mcstaller
09-28-2008, 01:09 PM
What a work of art! I am really enjoying this thread - please keep those posts and pictures coming! I did glue the exhaust stacks directly to the covering on top of the stringers... It seems to be holding fine (survived the horrible tree attack, anyway).

It really is my feeling that you can move that center of gravity forward a bit without much worry.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how you the covering your intending to use... Are you going to airbrush the camo, or brush paint?

jofrost
09-28-2008, 01:38 PM
J,

Do you have room to slide your battery forward . I had to do the same with my Dumas Waco . The manner in which you describe takeoff is typical of Pats models .

Barmonkey,

Looking great !

-John

barmonkey
09-29-2008, 04:09 AM
jszeiter, I plan to use an airbrush to paint. I have a Harbor Freight Automotive Detail gun which I got on sale for $10. I used it on my Hurricane with very nice results. I painted the brown with the gun and hand painted the green because my masking material would pull the paint off the foam. I don't think that will be an issue with the Doculam...but I may have to wait a few days between painting and masking.

Thanks guys for the support!

barmonkey
09-30-2008, 02:57 AM
The Aileron servo mounting has begun. I removed the front par of R1 and copied it. The new rib pieces ended up at 19mm from the outside ribs of the center section. One thing I didn't account for, was that the R1 is shorter than the R2 ribs. I had to glue a thin piece of Balsa to the top of R1 just aft of the rear stringer notch. I also placed a bottom plate made of 1/16 Balsa on the structure to give a bit of rigidity.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I plan to make an access cover to simplify servo adjustment/replacement. The Spad desingers conveniently placed two fuel tanks and a radiator reservoir which I can emulate to make a hatch. This tank resembles a fat "T", with the top of the "T" toward the pilot.

I still need to decide how much dihedral to retain. The real Spad had no dihedral, but I want to retain some of the stability that the dihedral gives.

tipsy mcstaller
09-30-2008, 02:53 PM
Beautiful work! Well, I repaired it, flew it again this morning, had a hard landing and tore the landing gear off again! :mad:

It's only the front that lets go... and unfortunately it breaks through the stringers for the underbelly. Did you lash the front of the landing gear to the spar? If not, I recommend that you do - anything to strengthen that connection would be good. I'm still having a hell of a time trimming the airplane... The wing also tends to disconnect where the leading edge is butted up against the center spar section (the section you have a picture of in your post). Reinforcing that connection on the lower wing would also probably be a good thing to do...

Of course, if your a good pilot (unlike myself) you probably won't need any of the above.

tipsy mcstaller
10-04-2008, 04:02 PM
Finally got it! I moved the front strut out in front of the second former (in the "battery hatch") and lashed it using fishing line and CA. If it let's go, it won't go snapping through my underbelly stringers. I also applied a bit of down trim to the motor.

My came out HEAVY (AUW 15 oz.) which might be partially due to the two trips to the hanger for repairs. The result is a slightly more challenging plane to fly. It will tip stall at lower speeds, and it does require some power on approach to prevent it snapping to one side (into the ground). I decided I would just trim out the elevator to compensate for the remaining tendency to balloon. At about half throttle it will remain level now. Put two flights on it this morning with no problems. Now that I understand what I've done (that is to say built it too heavy) I'm able to fly it with more confidence... How's yours coming Barmonkey?

barmonkey
10-04-2008, 04:12 PM
Good to hear that you are getting things sorted out. I have been thinking about the reinforcements that you suggested in your previous post, and meant to ask for some pics of the area where the landing gear mounts break. I have been worried about the strength of this area from the beginning.

barmonkey
10-04-2008, 04:32 PM
As for my progress...brace yourself....not much progress build-wise...definately not on the fast track.

I have been doing some studying on how to incorporate the Vickers guns/troughs, and the side profile details (louvered panel and exhaust). These are things which I want to include in the finished product, but may not be included in the maiden version. I need to plan for the addition of these things before I go any further with the fuse.

I blew up some 1/48 plans to the approximate size of this plane (front only)...and this took about an entire day to figure out how. I have determined judging by the wingspan, that the plane is 1/9 scale BTW. The plans I blew up, were just sized to fit the kit's plans. From this effort I have a good idea of gun, louvered panel, exhaust placement and will also create a more scale looking landing gear.

I have been studying the Vickers guns, and think that I have the size figured out. Unfortunately there aren't any 1/9 scale Vickers available. I need some 1/6 scale Spandau's for my 1/6 Fokker D.VIII, so went ahead and ordered some 1/6 Vickers guns. Using these as a model, I should be able to make some believable 1/9 scale Vickers guns. I will post the process here or may start another thread on Vickers guns.

I should get the dihedral set on the wings today. I will still go with a reduced dihedral...about half of what the plans call for. Hopefully, my Aileron set-up will be effective. If not, the dihedral should retain some of the rudder turning (banking) ability. I am pretty confident that I will have my hands full on the maiden!

Bill G
10-05-2008, 03:49 AM
As for my progress...brace yourself....not much progress build-wise...definately not on the fast track.

I have been doing some studying on how to incorporate the Vickers guns/troughs, and the side profile details (louvered panel and exhaust). These are things which I want to include in the finished product, but may not be included in the maiden version. I need to plan for the addition of these things before I go any further with the fuse.

I blew up some 1/48 plans to the approximate size of this plane (front only)...and this took about an entire day to figure out how. I have determined judging by the wingspan, that the plane is 1/9 scale BTW. The plans I blew up, were just sized to fit the kit's plans. From this effort I have a good idea of gun, louvered panel, exhaust placement and will also create a more scale looking landing gear.

I have been studying the Vickers guns, and think that I have the size figured out. Unfortunately there aren't any 1/9 scale Vickers available. I need some 1/6 scale Spandau's for my 1/6 Fokker D.VIII, so went ahead and ordered some 1/6 Vickers guns. Using these as a model, I should be able to make some believable 1/9 scale Vickers guns. I will post the process here or may start another thread on Vickers guns.

I should get the dihedral set on the wings today. I will still go with a reduced dihedral...about half of what the plans call for. Hopefully, my Aileron set-up will be effective. If not, the dihedral should retain some of the rudder turning (banking) ability. I am pretty confident that I will have my hands full on the maiden!
I wish there were scale vintage guns on the market of 1/9 through 1/12 scale. Not any I know of. The Williams Bros are nice, but then you must build a huge plane to accomodate them.:D Would be a bit large for your Spad.
I'll probably just end up using the Guillows guns for my current job, as making 2 would be some effort. Then again, cleaning up the molded half-part glue seams will be effort also.

My last gun effort for my Bristol was a good bit of work, gluing wire lengths around the barrel, and then covering with aluminized duct tape, rubbed hard around the barrel, which gave a nice ribbed look.

barmonkey
10-05-2008, 04:19 AM
Thanks Bill, for the tip. I have considered that method to give the ribbed look. Actually, the last post you made in your Sopwith Camel thread you showed your paper wheel covers...in the background I noticed your pictures in the background! Those pictures looked very familiar...I know I read that build thread somewhere...perhaps at RCG? Those are the best I have seen in a smaller scale.

BTW...there are some 1/8, 1/9, 1/10, and 1/12 scale Spandau, Lewis Gun and Parabellum guns availibile at Wright Brothers...unfortunately no Vickers.

http://www.wrightbrothersrc.com/products/wwi.htm

barmonkey
10-05-2008, 05:43 AM
Just to prove that I got something done today...included is a pic of the wings with the dihedral glued up. I went with 1/2 the dihedral of the original plan...rather than blocking 3/4" as designed on the plan , I went with 3/8". I figured the original dihedral was 5 degrees so that would be 2.5 degrees of dihedral. Pat Trittle stated in his thread that it was 3 degrees (which is probably correct) so that would leave 1.5 degrees dihedral.

The other pic shows some stuff that I found for the scale items. On top is a 1/2" diameter knitting needle I found on clearance...I got a pair for 2 bucks. No I dont knit, I have been searching high and low for just the right item to make these guns out of. The best I can figure, the scale barrel/cooling jacket dimensions are about 1/2" diameter and 2 1/4" in length...the rest of the gun is about 2".

The next item is a 3/8" dowel pin...too bad I couldn't find a 2 1/4" x 1/2" dowel pin. That would have been perfect!

The last item is a "MAGNUM" sized drinking straw I found at Hardee's. The diameter is 7mm. I am not sure what the scale diameter is, but it looks close. I brushed some acrylic paint on the end to test for adhesion. The plan is to use the kits header pieces and obviously the straw for the tial pipe. I figure it will not only save a bit of weight, but will yeild a better, rounder tail pipe.

tipsy mcstaller
10-05-2008, 02:05 PM
I'm not sure where all the weight came from (on my plane that is), but suspect the exhaust pipes. I've flown it three times this weekend with no further problems. Once I learned that yes it can stall and fall off dramatically, I'm keeping the air speed up, even on landing. It is not, however, the easy, slow park flyer I expected.

I'll post some pictures of the landing gear. Pat has you gluing it to the landing gear brace on the back of former 2, which puts it under the belly stringers. As I had to rebuild the engine mount (no stick mount), I simply moved the front "crosspiece" of the landing gear to the from of former two in the battery hatch area, and lashed it to two pieces of bracing for the firewall.

In retrospect, it probably would have been fine using the original plan, as long as the pilot is good enough to have no hard landings.

Incidentally, I changed my username, as jszeiter was simply not keeping up with the wit of the community...

Bill G
10-06-2008, 03:02 AM
I'm not sure where all the weight came from (on my plane that is), but suspect the exhaust pipes. I've flown it three times this weekend with no further problems. Once I learned that yes it can stall and fall off dramatically, I'm keeping the air speed up, even on landing. It is not, however, the easy, slow park flyer I expected.

I'll post some pictures of the landing gear. Pat has you gluing it to the landing gear brace on the back of former 2, which puts it under the belly stringers. As I had to rebuild the engine mount (no stick mount), I simply moved the front "crosspiece" of the landing gear to the from of former two in the battery hatch area, and lashed it to two pieces of bracing for the firewall.

In retrospect, it probably would have been fine using the original plan, as long as the pilot is good enough to have no hard landings.

Incidentally, I changed my username, as jszeiter was simply not keeping up with the wit of the community...
Man it just seems to come out of the woodwork.:D I know the feeling.
My few vintage planes all ended up heavier than expected. While not terribly difficult to fly, they were not quite as relaxing as I expected. Not the indoor flyers I was planning on.

barmonkey
10-06-2008, 05:22 AM
Thanks for the landing gear pic "Poster formerly known as jszeiter"

You kind of got me worried when you said yours hit 15 ounces...I was just kidding when in the begining of my build I stated something about 15 ounces for mine. I was kind of hoping to keep mine around 13 ounces in reality!

Do you think a larger prop/lower pitch would help the slow flying ability of the plane?

7car7
10-06-2008, 05:14 PM
BTW...there are some 1/8, 1/9, 1/10, and 1/12 scale Spandau, Lewis Gun and Parabellum guns availibile at Wright Brothers...unfortunately no Vickers.

http://www.wrightbrothersrc.com/products/wwi.htm

I just bought a set of Spandau's from these guys. They came out pretty cool. A bit hard to build the jacket, it's just paper, but they are VERY light, and worked out good in the end.

I sent an email asking if they had plans to make Vickers guns, but never heard back. I'm sure if others wrote to them, perhaps we'll see them eventually.

tipsy mcstaller
11-01-2008, 02:52 AM
Any progress on the plane? Mine has become a trusted member of my hanger, although only for dead-calm days...

barmonkey
11-01-2008, 11:37 PM
Haven't done a thing to it...not that I'm stuck...but just haven't had time to mess with it. It's funny how time can just fly bye.

It's nice to hear that you are still liking yours.

BTW, what did you end up with for the Center of Gravity?

barmonkey
11-12-2008, 05:48 AM
Well...It looks like the Spring-Like Fall weather has left the building, it will be cold and rainy for the next few days. Hopefully, I can get my act together on my build.

I have actually started work on my reference materials. If you noticed earlier in this thread, I posted a couple of pictures showing some of my references in the form of books and some plastic models of the SPAD XIII. My theory is that building these models along with the research I have done will yield a better looking model...to this point it has done nothing but delay the completion of this project! I must remember that this was not designed (or claimed to be) a scale model...it certainly looks like a SPAD. It should fly just fine built per plans...However, as Tipsy McStaller found out, the Tower Hobby suggested power set-up aint up to snuff (thanks for your input BTW).

A NOTE TO ANY POTENTIAL BUILDERS: This kit has gone together very nicely...the parts are laser cut and there is plenty of extra balsa for those little mishaps with the stringers and such. I have made this a little more difficult on myself by adding the Ailerons, thinking about those scale details, and then running out of vacation time coupled with some very wonderful weather! Also, keep in mind the fact I am new to the building aspect of this hobby.

At any rate, I ran across this site... http://www.internetmodeler.com/2000/september/galleria/showbirds.htm There are some profiles of the planes of the 94th Aero "Showbirds" by Bob Pearson (I firmly believe it is a good idea to post references!). For those that are put off by the kits Non-Warbird paint scheme, I have posted a couple of pics from that site...these schemes are legit...from post WWI victory exihibitions!

From the beginning I wanted to do a five color camo sceme: However, the wings of this plane are of the earlier rounded wing-tip type and not the squared off later type. The 94th Aero and all American Expeditionary Forces certainly had the later squared version (sorry, just a detail that bugs me a little). If I go with a legit scheme, it will have to go with the yellowish-tan colored plane scheme. The only camo schemes I have found with the rounded wing tips are British...I already have a SE5A and a Sopwith Camel in the hanger...and the SPAD is French anyway. I do like the Black SPAD with lightening Bolts though!

rhino
11-12-2008, 06:43 AM
NICE! Yeah the black one is cool. I also like the other two, but the last one gives me a little vertigo, heh.

jofrost
04-04-2009, 06:21 PM
Is there any updates on this build :confused: Hope all is going well :)

Mine just arrived today . Everything looks pretty good , and hopefully I can get to it soon .

-John

tipsy mcstaller
04-04-2009, 06:40 PM
Please feel free to post questions - I'd be happy to help from my experience building this kit.. I would REALLY suggest you mount the front of the landing gear in front of the former in the battery hatch area as opposed to under the stringers as the plans call for. Any hard landing, and the landing gear can pull away and through the stringers, making for a much harder rebuild.

jofrost
04-04-2009, 07:42 PM
tipsy ,

Thanks for that . I'll keep an eye on that LG mount .

Any news on BarMonkeys aeleron modded Spad ? Seems its been a while ...

I think I'll do mine for three channel as per plan .

Are you still flying yours ?

-John

tipsy mcstaller
04-05-2009, 01:47 AM
Absolutely. Only in a dead calm! The plane actually performs well if you have some idea of how a biplane should fly - I didn't so there was a steep learning curve. There is a lot of wing area and thus a lot of drag. I ended up putting about two ounces in the nose, and still had to put down trim into the radio. It's a nice model and I learned a lot. I'm sure I'll do another Tritle design at some pont.

jofrost
04-05-2009, 07:34 PM
TM ,

Good to hear it worked out well . I built the Waco YMF-5 a couple years ago , and still flies great . They definately shine on calm days under modest power settings .
I got a couple models to finish first ( Earl Stahl Albatros DVa and Dare B25 ) Then maybe Pats GeeBee Model D or a Peter Rake design ...
So many choices ...:eek:

-John

barmonkey
04-23-2009, 02:39 AM
Wow! I didn't realize that it has been that long...November!

I purposely did stop work on it...I was just to the point of over thinking things like scale details and the such...which probably would have left me with a brick. I have started work on some plastic scale models to help me size things up...actually I have acquired just about every plastic scale model and book made in the last 30 years for the Spad VII and Spad XIII.

I am currently working on cleaning all of the junk out of my garage so I have a better work area. Now, I just need to remember how I had the aileron situation worked out!

tipsy mcstaller
04-23-2009, 03:18 AM
Keep going! I'm sure it will be a fantastic model. I was impatient, and slapped mine together. I'd love to see what's possible by somebody taking their time.

barmonkey
04-23-2009, 03:39 AM
"I was impatient, and slapped mine together"

That's what I originally wanted to do...I looked back and it looks like it took twelve days to get all the parts glued up...and I couldn't work on it every day. I was proud of myself up to that point!

I should get my garage stuff done tomorrow, and a couple of days of much needed Spring house cleaning and I should be back in business...

Of course there's still the P-38, P-47 and my nitro Hydroplane I need to tweek for the races next month...

Ryan Flyer
06-07-2009, 01:34 PM
Hi barmonkey, any more work on the SPAD.
Ryan

tipsy mcstaller
06-07-2009, 01:44 PM
I'm still subscribed to see if I can help with you build. Just one major point: The way the lower wing attaches to the fuse is inadequate. I have had to repair that around four time (and will now try to figure out how to make it permanent). I'm considering the use of carbon fiber. I'll post pictures as I do this (hopefully) final repair.

Problem is if you put it down and a wing tip strikes, the l.e. just pulls away from the fuse side.

barmonkey
06-08-2009, 11:36 PM
Still haven't done a thing to it! The only R/C stuff I have messed with has been my boats...kind of a steep learning curve going from Electric flight to Nitro Hydroplane racing.

I do need to get back on this...missing some primo flying weather!

Let's see those pics of where yours is pulling apart...I'll try to get some pics of that area on my uncovered version. If you think that would be helpful...

wattman
09-21-2011, 08:09 PM
So was this Spad ever finished ?
Has anyone else built one ?
I am thinking of getting one , that would insure some mfr making a rtf one if I do :rolleyes:

PureCarnage
01-13-2015, 10:57 AM
Hello

I have just currently bought this and will commence building on Saturday.
Thanks for everyone's advice on how this build went, it will make it easier for me to build (with not to many mistakes) :D

This is my first balsa model I am building so it looks like I have a challenge on my hands :D

Regards
Kevin

PureCarnage
10-20-2015, 10:20 AM
So I have got some progress started on the body last night, I will post photos later. I will be doing a big change and instead of using brushless I will be using a Cox 0.049 red bee engine. Hopefully this will work out well