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Bill G
09-29-2008, 01:25 AM
I've always wanted a Camel since I gave my flying buddy my Wattage Camel. Different from some reports, it flys well and he loves it. Wasn't exactly scale though, so this one will be much better in that department.

I've heard good reports from those who have converted the Guillows Camel, and have their SE5A and DR1 flying well enough now, that I would think this should even be much better with ailerons. Guillows kits were designed by various people, where some like the Hellcat and Dauntless have semi-symmetrical, much more scale-like wings. This Camel kit has a semi-symmetrical airfoil with some undercamber, which should be better suited to this type of plane than the flat bottom. I was pleased to discover that it did not have the standard issue Guillows flat bottom airfoil. The ailerons are actually part of the "stock" build also, versus the kits where they have to be bashed into the wings, which is another nice touch.

The basic fuse and wing structures have been framed, and all the gear is far forward, as needed in the short nose WWI bipes. The Camel has a large fuse for the scale, which makes equipment mounting easy. The first fuse bay is large enough to easily fit a battery box behind the firewall, with ele/rud servos and receiver also. The plane will have functional ailerons also.

barmonkey
09-29-2008, 03:56 AM
Glad to see another build here! I'll certainly be following along.

Is the Camel the same wingspan as the Thomas Morse Scout (24")?

I like the way you mounted the servos using the side formers as supports. What size are they? I benched the Scout because I couldn't find any 2.5 gram servos in stock anywhere...I suppose I could have used the 3.7's...but on this size plane every Gram is critical.

Bill G
09-29-2008, 06:01 AM
Glad to see another build here! I'll certainly be following along.

Is the Camel the same wingspan as the Thomas Morse Scout (24")?

I like the way you mounted the servos using the side formers as supports. What size are they? I benched the Scout because I couldn't find any 2.5 gram servos in stock anywhere...I suppose I could have used the 3.7's...but on this size plane every Gram is critical.
Yeah it is nice to see more builds. I have been looking at your Spad build also. Looks good.

The servo weight sure does count. The noses on these planes often have to be so heavy, that you certainly don't need to add any more weight to other areas. I only used GWS pico servos for the rud/elev, as they are mounted so far forward that they will contribute to needed noseweight. If I use independent aileron servos, they will probably be BA 2.5gm. All 6 of the 2.5gram BA servos I have work well, if that's what you are trying to find in stock somewhere.

This plane is 28" span which made it appealing, as the 24" planes are a bit small for Guillows construction and end up a bit heavy. My DR1 and SE5A are flying well, but they are far too heavy to be indoor planes. Pretty much require the same room as most other parkflyers.

Too lazy to load another pic at this time of night, :D but I have the wings finished and test fitted on the fuse. I had expected this kit to be a lot of work, being a die-cut, a biplane, and a Guillows, but it has really gone together quickly and easily. I like the design.

degreen60
09-29-2008, 09:25 PM
Is this one of the Superstar kits?

Bill G
09-30-2008, 04:22 AM
Is this one of the Superstar kits?Not sure what they are, but I hope it turns out like one.:D It is one of the newer Guillows kits with the more colorful box artwork, with the made in US sticker on the box.

I see your Wattage Sopwith avatar. My buddy has mine, which has been through the war :D but still flies fine. I'd like to get another to really detail out.

Guillows Sopwith:
The wings fit well and surprisingly the bottom wings seem to meet the fuse with equal dihedral, and neither panel is sweeping forward or rearward. Often you have to do a bit of tweaking for decent alignment.
Shaping the LEs before building the wing is a good idea, as there is still a bit of final shaping to go, but much easier than having to fully shape the hard stock LEs on the assembled wings. Added additional balsa around the strut mount slots, for additional area for covering attachment. Now to decide what sevo/linkage method to use for aileron control.

pburt1975
09-30-2008, 01:40 PM
Off to a great start already there Bill. I cant tell from the pic, what size motor ESC will you be flying that with?

degreen60
09-30-2008, 02:11 PM
Not sure what they are, but I hope it turns out like one.:D It is one of the newer Guillows kits with the more colorful box artwork, with the made in US sticker on the box.

OOPs, I was thinking of the Comet Superstar kit. This looks to be 1/12 scale.

Bill G
09-30-2008, 06:24 PM
OOPs, I was thinking of the Comet Superstar kit. This looks to be 1/12 scale.It's 1/12th scale, but they give you a pilot that appears to be more like 1/9th or 10th scale.::o
I put him together last night, but will use it in my larger Bristol M1c which needs a light pilot, to not add any more weight or rearward weight. This Camel will get a Williams Brothers vintage pilot.

Bill G
10-01-2008, 05:26 AM
I decided to sacrifice a bit of added tail spar weight, to make the tail feathers look right. Sparring was added to both sides of the frames to give an airfoil shape and make the ribbing noticable under the covering. Will probably need a bit more noseweight to compensate, but these planes just don't look right when the wings have a fabric covered appearance, but the tail feathers look dead flat.

This plane built pretty quickly, and now is at the covering stage, after adding the aileron servo/s and linkage. The supplied pilot was assembled, but will be used in my larger Bristol M1c. I will be using a Williams Brother 1/12th scale pilot for this plane. Look at the picture below and you can see how large the Guillows pilot is, compared with a 1/12th scale (scale of this plane) Williams Brothers pilot.

degreen60
10-01-2008, 03:24 PM
The supplied pilot was assembled, but will be used in my larger Bristol M1c. I will be using a Williams Brother 1/12th scale pilot for this plane. Look at the picture below and you can see how large the Guillows pilot is, compared with a 1/12th scale (scale of this plane) Williams Brothers pilot.

I fill each half of the pilots that come with planes with plaster(filled one with epoxy puddy). Then using that as a master use a Mattel Vac-u-form to make light weight pilots. I glue the 2 half togerher using Gorilla glue and water. The Gorilla glue expands and fills all cracks where the 2 halfs meet.

7car7
10-01-2008, 03:27 PM
Wow, your pilots have yellow goggles. Mine had clear. Just bought them about a month or so ago. Just thought it interesting.

Bill G
10-01-2008, 10:31 PM
On the goggles, some are yellow and some clear. I prefer the clear. I'll have to see if I have another pilot with clear to swap with. I don't know if they were into tinted lenses in WWI.


Interesting pilot making method Degreen. I need to get a vac former setup.
The thin pilots certainly do need something to add some sanding latitude along the seams. I flow the seams with thick CA, from the inside of the pilot, after tacking the halves together. It does add weight, if done wastefully. I find that buying CA in smaller bottles tends to help me conserve more.:D

Bill G
10-04-2008, 06:46 AM
Well I broke down and got a sheet of 1/16" ply at the LHS, for wing and gear struts. Considering the recent price increases of these kits, it would be nice if they would go back to using ply, instead of that vinly crap they substitute now. The wing end struts were a bit of work to cut out from ply sheet, being a large one piece "U", but the real wood will be worth it in the end. The vinly would have to be painted to look like wood, whereas the ply can be stained to look much more realistic for struts. The vinly stuff breaks pretty easily too.

I've been taking the time to ensure good fit and alignment of parts on this build, before final assembly. It gets old to have to remember things like, "This part will need a shim when assembled", or "The landing gear is longer on one side, so don't forget to hold the struts on one side down a bit when gluing in plance". All the plastic farings and cowl are being test fitted also, as it's more difficult to adjust things after covering. I've also added wood around the wing strut mounts, to provide additional area for the covering to adhere to, as it will need slots cut into it.

The wheels supplied are solid wood, versus the plastic wheels Guillows used. Guillows has a nice vintage plastic wheel, but I believe it's too small for the scale, which is why they supplied the wooden wheels. I would have preferred plastic wheels, as the wooden ones weigh almost 12gms each. The hub area could have been drilled full of holes to lighten, since they have hub covers, but I opted to just make a set of wheels. The stock wheels also come out to be 34" in terms of scale, which I believe is a bit large for a Camel. That's almost 3 feet in diameter. The set I fabricated are about 31" full scale.

I made a Peter Rake style set of wheels, using balsa circle knockouts from various kits, which I saved over the years. The tires are made from vacuum hose, with a plastic joiner rod and thin CA at the attachment point. The final weight of these wheels is a bit over 7gms, which is considerably lighter than the stock wheel weight.

barmonkey
10-04-2008, 03:12 PM
Nice work on the wheels. I suppose the weight of the solid wood wheels would help with the C/G on a free flight models. I like the fact that Guillows supplied a vac formed cowl and "Camel Hump" area. Are the plastic wheel covers included with the kit's vac formed sheets?

Bill G
10-04-2008, 06:59 PM
Off to a great start already there Bill. I cant tell from the pic, what size motor ESC will you be flying that with?Sorry I missed this post.
The motor is one that I believe my LHS got from BP, used with a TBird9 ESC. I believe this is the motor:
http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=B2552587&pid=B2552589
I used them in my Guillows DC3 with good performance on 3s, with tiny Thimble Drome 5x3 props on 3s. Seem to be reasonably powerful for the weight/size/price.

Barmonkey, I thought about the heavy wooden wheel weight helping with CG. They would help, with the only issue being that they are not quite as far forward as lead that can be put in the cowl. The plastic parts are what attract me to these Guillows kits, as they look really good when detailed with them. A Camel just isn't right without the front fuse farings and canopy hump farings. The wheel covers came with the detail parts, and were the reason I bothered to make wheels, since I knew they would look decent with the covers. I made covers before that look like they are covering over spokes, but they were a bit of work to get all the folds in the cardstock properly, and assemble on the wheel. Didn't want to go through that again here.:D Here's how I would have done them, if I had:

Bill G
10-08-2008, 03:32 AM
Continuing my recent build trend, I've been finishing all the detail/fabbed parts, such as pilots, landing gear, guns, etc. This makes the plane go together faster at the end of the build. You can really burn some time on these parts! Spent an hour just rounding the edges of the ply wing struts, which I had to make, as the kit's are that nylon stuff. Assembling the gun halves, sanding the seams, and painting them was close to 2 hours.

The Guillows pilot actually looks like the one on the box, but is far too large for the 1/12th scale plane. It will go in another plane, and a Williams Bros 1/12th scale pilot has been painted for this plane. Williams Bros pilots have no bust below the shoulder tips, so I had to add/shape 1/4" of balsa to the pilot, so that he is not staring at the gun butts. Still almost is.

I had a Zinger 8x4 wooden prop, which is scale in diameter for the plane, but does not look correct. From previous Guillows builds like this one, I have had to run 3s to get performance, but the prop may be a bit aggressive for the setup on 3s. Making the prop look better, and less aggressive, I reshaped the prop to give it the scimitar shaped vintage appearance.

Biplane Murphy
10-08-2008, 03:47 AM
Ah, the memories........I built one of these as a kid in the late 70's.....Rubber band power....tissue covered....:)

It didn't live long....LOL

7car7
10-08-2008, 03:26 PM
I know you've done the card stock thing before, and doesn't sound like you wanted to deal with that this time. They can be "interesting" to put it kindly.

But if you're interested in ever trying it again,

Check this thread...

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=487081#post487081

I just made it, thinking of you!

btw, plane is looking great, love the updates.

Bill G
10-08-2008, 06:35 PM
Murph, I guess it would take a strong wound rubber band to fly one of these. I imagaine we're close to the same age, me at 42. I know at age 12-14, I would have not paid the attention required to build straight wings using Guillows die cut parts.:eek: Go for building another one now.:D

7car, the cardstock does work well. I used it to cover my Rake Brisol kit included wheels posted above. I had thought of using Maxx wheels like the ones in your pic, and doing that. I've also used the ultralight solid plastic spoke wheels, with cardstock covers. Obviously thin tires, but still look reasonable. I had a set of solid vintage Guillows wheels from another kit, which look decent, but are too small for this kit. Used them on a Sterling Eindecker. I now have 2 sets of Sterling vintage wheels which look decent, but they weigh as much as a motor.:D

For whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of manufactured vintage wheels in sizes under 3" diameter. Maybe we'll see more in the future.

Biplane Murphy
10-08-2008, 06:49 PM
Murph, I guess it would take a strong wound rubber band to fly one of these. I imagaine we're close to the same age, me at 42. I know at age 12-14, I would have not paid the attention required to build straight wings using Guillows die cut parts.:eek: Go for building another one now.:D

Yep....39 here.....And no, I did not have the skills back then to build a Straight and True Airframe....LOL

Not to mention that wood glue was all I had available to use on it.

But it was fun to build regardless.:)

7car7
10-08-2008, 06:51 PM
For whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of manufactured vintage wheels in sizes under 3" diameter. Maybe we'll see more in the future.

Yep, that's why I like the ones I pictured. About as close as it gets. And VERY light.

Bill G
10-12-2008, 08:12 AM
Started covering parts tonight. Before covering, a the ailerons needed balsa padding around the clevises, to provide area to attach covering to. This was also done at the aileron servo arm exits and the center of the elevator frame, where it attaches to the fuselage.

The tail surface spars were built up and shaped with an extra layer of sparring, to give a scale appearance. Worth the extra effort to avoid the board flat look. GWS hinge material was used for hinges in the tail surfs.

The rudder and elevator linkage are also in place, using .025" instead of .032", to save weight. A bit of material was removed from the rear fuse formers also, to reduce tail weight. As of now, it doesn't seem that CG setting will be a problem, from testing with the tail surfaces loosely in place.

degreen60
10-12-2008, 07:38 PM
The rudder and elevator linkage are also in place, using .025" instead of .032", to save weight. A bit of material was removed from the rear fuse formers also, to reduce tail weight. As of now, it doesn't seem that CG setting will be a problem, from testing with the tail surfaces loosely in place.

Save even more weight and look more scale, use pull-pull on the rudder and elevator.

Bill G
10-13-2008, 02:21 AM
Save even more weight and look more scale, use pull-pull on the rudder and elevator.
I thought about that, but the .025" music wire is pretty light. It would look really nice to have the pull-pull, but it's work too.:D That's the real reason I didn't do it. I used pull-pull on my Rake Bristol M1c, which at its larger size of 47" span would have just looked wrong with pushrod linkage. On this little plane, it's not so noticable.

7car7
10-13-2008, 04:45 PM
Tail group looks great! I don't like the board flat look either. Nice choice.

pvtzemerak
10-14-2008, 10:57 PM
Ahg, saw one of these at my LHS. didnt know if i could convert it, then i come home and see this thread, Pm me your set-up please :p
Thanks
~pvt

Bill G
10-15-2008, 02:40 PM
Ahg, saw one of these at my LHS. didnt know if i could convert it, then i come home and see this thread, Pm me your set-up please :p
Thanks
~pvt

I wouldn't want to advertise the gear as a working setup yet, until it flies, but so far,
The motor link from post 15
http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id...7&pid=B2552589
As for the batt, it depends on weight needed. I have a TP 3s-480, 730, and 910 which will fit in the batt compartment. Will probably need the 910 for balance.
I have either a TBird9 or Phoenix 10 for the ESC. Can't remember offhand. A slightly larger ESC may be a good thing for noseweight, although much bigger would make it more diffucult to keep the wires away from the outrunner, and be able to fit the cowl on.

From previous use of the motor, I have no reason to believe it shouldn't do the job, but would probably be better to see it fly before writing it in stone.

As for servos, the Dymonds used in the wings (4.7 in this case, but all their small sizes seem good) have proven a good cut above the rest in the class size. I only used the GWS Picos for elev/rud because I had them, but they have proven very good also, albeit a bit heavier at 5.4 grams. In their case, they are mounted far forward to provide nose weight, so the weight is used productively. That is really the important thing, to get everything far forward. Even the aileron servos were mounted toward the front of the wing, where they do not add aft CG weight.

As for the kit as a conversion candidate, I would go for it. The fuse is a bit roomier than the SE5A I converted. The larger radial cowl makes any kind of motor mounting easy, and moves the weight forward, also allowing for the batt to be mounted right behind the firewall. In the SE5A, for example, I wanted the stock fuse bottom cover with stock cooling holes under where the engine would be, and the motor had to be mounted above that panel in the fuse, since the cowl is just a small cover. This pushed the battery back to the bay just forward of the wing. All in all that plane was more work to setup the front fuse area, than the Sopwith.

The wings are setup to build with ailerons per plan, versus having to "bash" them in as an option, such as on many other Guillows planes. This adds to the kit. The drawback to this kit is the die-cut parts, which were not as precise as some of the other Guillows kits I have built. You have to "tweak" some of the parts for good fit, and really pay attention to building straight. It cannot be slammed together like a laser cut kit. As much as I like the feeling of accomplishment and true modeling in building vintage kits, I am becoming more of a laser cut fan, for ease of building. This plane would be finished by now, if it was a laser cut.

Detail
A bit more rambling, the plastic farings for the cocpit area attracted me to this kit. Some planes have more fabricated farings than others, and ones that have many just do not look right without them. The Sopwith's side panels and camel hump are a perfect example of that, requiring detailed molded parts. The Guillows Dauntless was another kit I bought, since it had detailed molded farings and retract bays. Just can't make a kit like that look right with sheet balsa in those areas. Gotta have molded parts.

Bill G
10-17-2008, 01:14 AM
Finished my least favorite stage: covering.
Down to painting and final assembly, which is still a good bit of work with all the rigging and quad aileron setup, but getting there.
Did a quick dry fit of everything today after covering, for motivation.

rhino
10-17-2008, 07:29 AM
Nice lil plane, Bill; looking really clean.

7car7
10-17-2008, 03:58 PM
White Coverite Microlite, will be painted over

I was just looking at the Microlite web site yesterday, and noticed it said it's NOT paintable. I sure hope it is, I was considering using this as a replacement for dope and Silkspan.

Have you painted it before?

Biplane Murphy
10-17-2008, 04:58 PM
Looks Great Bill....:)

I can't wait to see it in all her finished glory.

Bill G
10-18-2008, 05:23 AM
Thanks Murph and Rhino. Should finish this weekend, now that I have some time.I was just looking at the Microlite web site yesterday, and noticed it said it's NOT paintable. I sure hope it is, I was considering using this as a replacement for dope and Silkspan.

Have you painted it before?Many times. They say not paintable, since it's not 100 percent straightforward. I've painted it many times. Thinned airbrush paint bonds better than can bombs, and adds considerably less weight also, which is how I've been finishing it. When you paint it, the covering relaxes, and requires reshrinking. At this point you can no longer use the iron without wrecking your paint job, so there are the following methods:

Heat gunning is risky if you get too close, but if you hold at a distance and watch the covering closely it works fine. Stop heating as soon as you get the wrinkles out. I use the heatgun this way while twisting the wing to set washout and remove warps. I've used higher power hair dryers sucessfully, but they tend to not have enough heat to reshrink the covering well.

I also use a heat lamp to reshrink. I've got a lot of time in doing this, and have the method down pat. If you leave the parts a few feet away under the lamp to dry, they will shrink tight in an hour of so.
You can hold them closer to the light for faster shrinking, but keep away a good foot distance at least, and pull away as soon as you see the shrinking complete in the area. If you overheat it, you will either burn a hole, or shift seam lines slightly, which makes an unsightly unpainted line in the finish. Never "stand" on any one spot.

rhino
10-18-2008, 08:24 AM
Interesting. I'm working on a Nieuport 11 off a guillows plan and still haven't yet decided how I'm going to cover it. I was leaning towards silkspan - though I've never covered with it before - and have even pondered using tissue and dope.

I definatly want to use paint, but am finding my lack of covering experience a serious hinderance despite the plane not being very close to cover-ready. I don't have a heat lamp or an airbrush so I'm afraid I cant take full advantage of your technique, Bill.

Bill G
10-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Interesting. I'm working on a Nieuport 11 off a guillows plan and still haven't yet decided how I'm going to cover it. I was leaning towards silkspan - though I've never covered with it before - and have even pondered using tissue and dope.

I definatly want to use paint, but am finding my lack of covering experience a serious hinderance despite the plane not being very close to cover-ready. I don't have a heat lamp or an airbrush so I'm afraid I cant take full advantage of your technique, Bill.
I painted my Microlite covered SE5A with Model Masters cans. The obvious way to minimize the weight of heavy can bomb enamel is to spray far enough away from the parts for even, efficient coats. A heat gun does work fine to shrink the covering afterwards, but you have be patient (unlike me):D and hold they gun far away and take your time.

7car7
10-20-2008, 05:12 PM
Great info there Bill, thanks. You may have converted me from a Silkspan user. I don't like the fragileness!

Bill G
10-21-2008, 05:12 AM
The iron-on is easy to repair also 7car. I haven't used silkspan, but it doesn't sound as easy to repair from what little I know.

Well it's all downhill from here. Got the plastic fuse farings in place and the bottom wing attached, with the aileron servos connected and tested. The cream fabric color has been painted on all bottom surfaces, and the green top color is ready to be sprayed now. The top wing and tail surfaces will be assembled after painting. The well detailed plastic parts were the reason I bought the kit, while at the same time knowing how difficult they are to trim to fit perfectly. Literally spent a few hours getting the fuse side panels and top panel fit, to have a perfect mating seam with the cowl.

Bill G
10-22-2008, 01:36 AM
Started painting with the airbrush, which wasn't going as well as I wanted. Some colors require too much thinning to spray properly. Ended up using MM cans, as I had the same color. The MM quality is poor in the sense that 2 cans of the same color may not match well. Always save a full or near full can for the finish coat.

Reshrinking:
Used the heatgun to shrink the covering between coats. If not done, the paint will collect in the wrinkles and have a poor appearance. The heatgun worked fine, as I was careful to hold it a foot away and keep moving.
For the tail feathers, I had to poke a small pin hole in a non-conspicuous place, to let the air out while using the heat gun. They will blow up like a balloon otherwise.

Below is the Sopwith Monoplane. No, I will put the top wing on it.:D
Does look nice as a monoplane though.

rhino
10-22-2008, 06:23 AM
Looks great, Bill! Did you paint the under side as well or is that staying the color of the film?

Bill G
10-22-2008, 07:03 PM
Looks great, Bill! Did you paint the under side as well or is that staying the color of the film?
It's all painted a cream color 3 posts above, to look like fabric. The unpainted covering would be too white and glossy.

Bill G
10-25-2008, 05:18 AM
Petty close to complete. Still working on the rigging and need to setup the aileron linkage, which has Dubro micro andustable clevis links on the aileron-to-aileron pushrods for fine adjustment. The detail scheme will be the famous White "B", versus the box scheme, so I made the fuse side number decals, and have a few custom decals to make.

The AUW now is 11.25oz with TP 3s-480, with the CG at the plan's setting. I'm convinced it should be a bit further forward, so allowing up to 3/4 oz of lead in the nose at 12oz AUW, that will make for a wing loading of 7.1 oz per sq-ft, which is less than half that of some of the Guillows warbirds I've flown.

rhino
10-25-2008, 06:22 AM
Looking great Bill, and I'm suprised the wing loading cam out so low - sweet! The paint work details you added to the struts and wooden prop really are some nice bling. Your efforts have really paid off so far.

Is that one of the props I read somewhere that you cut down, or reshaped?

Bill G
10-25-2008, 06:55 PM
Looking great Bill, and I'm suprised the wing loading cam out so low - sweet! The paint work details you added to the struts and wooden prop really are some nice bling. Your efforts have really paid off so far.

Is that one of the props I read somewhere that you cut down, or reshaped?The prop is a Zinger wooden prop. They are low cost too. Under 2 bucks for most of the ones I've bought.
The smaller GWS DD series have a somewhat Scimitar vintage appearance too. If for some reason this prop turns out to overload the motor on 3s and not fly it on 2s, I'll use a GWS DD prop on 3s and paint wooden color.

The wing figures included averaging the span at 27.5" times the 4.5" chord. I subtracted 4 squares for the window and notched area in the top wing above the pilot. I have heard that there is a derating factor due to losses biplane wing configuration where the actual effective area is not really the total area of both wings. Still, the additional wing makes these planes so much more attractive to convert, versus the monoplanes. In general, I've found that the weights that some say these planes should be at are unrealistically difficult to achieve, while at the same time the planes fly much better at higher weights, than the "that's too heavy types" constantly imply on the forums.

Bill G
10-26-2008, 08:56 PM
All done. Way too windy to fly today. Oh well.

Some pics below show a few details of the micro Dubro clevises used for the aileron-to-aileron likages. The bottom access panels are the batt door, servo-rec access door, and the 3rd door was only needed to connect the aileron servo cables, as the y-harness was not long enough to pull through the fuse. A longer harness would enable making connections outside the fuse, then pushing the connectors through a slot which would need to be cut, and then gluing the bottom wings to the fuse.

Edit: Days later, and still crap windy weather every day since completed. :Q

reuben199
10-30-2008, 08:51 AM
Hey Bill,
Awesome build, I hope you post a video. I also built this model earlier this year as a static model and that started me off, I'm about to start a guillows SE5a and when my flying skills improve I'll be buying a WW1 flyer. I'll add a couple of photo's of mine I've done a simple version of W G Barkers (the Canadian ace) camel.
-Reuben

Bill G
10-30-2008, 08:03 PM
Hey Bill,
Awesome build, I hope you post a video. I also built this model earlier this year as a static model and that started me off, I'm about to start a guillows SE5a and when my flying skills improve I'll be buying a WW1 flyer. I'll add a couple of photo's of mine I've done a simple version of W G Barkers (the Canadian ace) camel.
-Reuben
Don't have a video recorder. Could try the digi-cam, but haven't yet. One of these days, on the to-do list.:D

I just saw a Sopwith on the Guillow's site that looks like yours. Very nice build. I think you'll like the SE5A. It's a good conversion candidate and flys well.

Looks like you didn't care to use that vinyl crap for your wing struts either. The prop looks nice too. I had thought about trying to use the Guillows prop halves and make a function vintage flying prop, built around a smaller GWS plastic prop as a core for strength and mounting.

reuben199
10-30-2008, 08:41 PM
Hey Bill,
Yes that vinyl was crap.... I ended up laminating it with balsa sheet. You've inspired me with your build, I'm going to have a go at making my SE5a in to a 3 channel flyer, just rudder/elevator for now but I may make the ailerions and have it so if I decide I need them I can just trim through the covering and wing spars to release them (I hope that makes sense).
I have a small waypoint brushless motor and 15amp esc/ 3s 800mah lipo's that I will use, the only thing I'm concerned with the covering:rolleyes: I found the tissue was ok for the sopwith, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up on a flying model.
-Reuben

Bill G
10-31-2008, 02:36 AM
Reuben the SE5A is a good flyer with rud/elev, which is how I have mine setup. Plenty of control without the ailerons.

Sopwith:
Flew today just after sundown, and it was really darker than the pic shows, as the camera lightens the pics a good bit at dusk. Not much of a flight, as it needed noseweight and I wisely set it down after a quick go around. From previous experiences, I should have just added more in the first place, but its tough to get yourself to make the plane heavier. Still much lighter than other Guillows planes I flown at heavier weights than this plane, that were monoplanes to boot.

The prop was also a bit large for the little outrunner, and it has been downsized to 7" after the flight. I liked the scale size, but it perfoms much better on the bench now with the prop downsized 1" from the previous 8". Back out tomorrow, as the weather should be good.

rhino
10-31-2008, 07:10 AM
Congrats on your maiden, Bill.

7car7
10-31-2008, 03:09 PM
Bill, congrats on a good maiden it sounds?

That pesky sun-down thing can be a real bear! I just about lost my Albatros a week ago due to dis-orientation at dusk.

Hope the nose weight works great for ya.
Your model came out really nice. Love the details, and the numbering. Something I have yet to do to ALL of me planes.

Bill G
10-31-2008, 04:06 PM
Thanks guys. Hopefully better today when I fly it again.

I read a thread from a builder who converted the Stearman a while back. He eneded up using a speed 400 and had good results, as the noseweight was needed anyways. At this point, I believe it. If I took it over, I would have stolen the Park 370 from my Guillows FW190, as it has 5 good flights and is basically retired. I keep flying the 190, eventually something bad will happen anyways. The motor I used is a bit pushed to drive an 8" scale prop, and will now be driving a 7". The Park 370 could handle the 8", and has more weight.

I'm now at 12.75oz which is still fine for the plane, after adding 3/4 additional ozs of noseweight, for a total of 1.5oz lead added. I did some reading about Camel CGs needing to be quite near the LE of the bottom wing. I was at around 15mm back, and am now closer to 10mm back.

I also have the battery compartment sized for a 3s-700, but don't have one, as my old blue label TP has retired to a bench test batt. I plan to buy one, as my TP 3s-480 is pushed fairly hard, and it would be better to just have more batt and remove a bit of lead.

We'll see how it goes today.

Bill G
11-01-2008, 03:18 AM
The most important piece of info in this thread:
CG set at 10mm back from LE of bottom wing
Flies beuatifully.

Do NOT try 15mm!:eek: I tried that for the first flight and am lucky to still have a Sopwith Camel.:D
Don't be reluctant to add enough lead as I was at first. The plane can handle the weight with the wing area. This one is now at 12.75oz AUW with a TP 3s-480.

Took it out this evening for it's second flight, being a real flight this time. :Q (yeah, all smiles today) Flies beautifully at 10mm back from bottom wing LE. The CG on these short nose bipes has a very short range, and a few mm will give you an entirely different airplane. The plane is now at 12.75oz, which is not exactly indoor territory, but could be done. Will fly reasonably slow, and the handling is excellent with all 4 ailerons. Much different than the rudder bipes I've flown in the past. I highly reccomend this plane, and now know exactly why Warren Jones liked his so much. Handles like a good warbird.

As for the power system, the small ELE outrunner is pushed past reccomended current rating above 3/4 throttle with the now downsized 7" modified wooden Zinger prop, but the plane flies well at 1/2 throttle. This was a big relief, as the TP 3s-480 and motor are now ran within acceptable limits. I also have a prop adapter that had been poorly honed in the past, now resized with CA and redrilled for the plane. Could use a new one, as it gets out of hand at 3/4 throttle, but fortunately there is no need to ever go that far. If I want to "overpower" it, I may change to a Park 370, remove a bit of lead, and use a 3s-730 lipo.

The designer of this plane knew what they were doing, and it needs no "mods" as other Guillows planes do. The elevator, for example, does not have the classical excess negative incidence, which requires shimming for rc powered flight. This plane flys well as is. The only eccentricity I can think of is about 2 deg prop right thrust. I'm probably a bit shy of that, and needed a few clicks of right rudder (not aileron, although it is an aileron flyer) to fly straight.

rhino
11-01-2008, 07:04 AM
Good to hear how well it turned out. Sure is a pretty looking bird in that first shot, Bill. Don't be suprised if you hear someone has put it up on their desktop for some inspiration. ;) Just for kicks and giggles, whats your wing loading now?

Bill G
11-02-2008, 01:48 AM
Good to hear how well it turned out. Sure is a pretty looking bird in that first shot, Bill. Don't be suprised if you hear someone has put it up on their desktop for some inspiration. ;) Just for kicks and giggles, whats your wing loading now?
Thanks Rhino
Wing loading is now 7.5 oz/sq-ft

I flew it again today, and after being convinced that it is very stable, I tried some rolls. The rolls were not tight as I had expected, and the nose really dives in the inverted phase. Still not difficult to recover from, and had no spin problems. If it did, I probably wouldn't still have a Camel after that horsing around.:D

Even with the reasonably light wing loading, it won't exactly slow to a crawl for landing. I try to slow it as much as possible, with just a bit of throttle to keep airborne. This semi-symmetrical wing with slight undercamber seems a lot less draggy than the thin-plate undercambers or flat bottoms. Really keeps moving with power off.

barmonkey
11-06-2008, 06:10 AM
Just want to say thanks for sharing your build. I have learned a lot from you.

Bill G
11-06-2008, 12:41 PM
Just want to say thanks for sharing your build. I have learned a lot from you.
Thanks Barmonkey. This is a good one to add to the database, since there is so little info on it. I looked forever and literally found 1 thread where a guy stated he had it flying well. Still, the thread had no build/cg info on the plane.

With really good info added to the database, more folks would be encouraged to convert these planes, with things like CG already sorted out for them, and good known flying weights. I could have destroyed this plane on the first flight, due to the CG being just a few mm off, while now a great flyer. If we can provide good guildlines to give folks a near guaranteed chance of success, more of these builds may come.

The other myth I've been trying to defeat is that the AUWs of these planes must be unrealistically light. Many times its very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve the weights that some discouragingly tell others they must be at. The planes also fly very well at the heavier weights that Guillows end up at. While light is good, its not as if you have to build only the lightest designs with the lightest wood to have success.

Bill G
10-11-2009, 06:40 AM
Put a slightly larger Super Tigre 370 outrunner in the plane, for more power and less lead. The previous motor was ran a bit hard for the app. Shot some video while flying today, with the trans in one hand, and the camera in the other, thus the easier all left turn flight with one hand only on the transmitter. The noise at the end is me shutting down the camera, and not a crash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luaRsFu57LU

watt
02-21-2011, 01:47 AM
Great modeling talents guys!

MarceloMichelazzo
08-20-2013, 09:10 PM
Hey Bill

If it was your first model, would you go for a futaba set with servos, transmitter, etc or you think I should get the servos and transmitter separatelly? and then get a remote?
I found out so many servos at internet that I don't know which one I'll need. What do you think?

I know, It sounds pretty newbie, I'm sorry.

Bill G
08-30-2013, 02:22 AM
Hey Bill

If it was your first model, would you go for a futaba set with servos, transmitter, etc or you think I should get the servos and transmitter separatelly? and then get a remote?
I found out so many servos at internet that I don't know which one I'll need. What do you think?

I know, It sounds pretty newbie, I'm sorry.I just caught this, as I haven't been here lately on this forum. This model is not exactly the most self-aligning kit I've ever built, and required some effort for a straight build. Things such as setting equal wing incidences or slightly more upper wing positive are important. The CG really needs to be at the point I determined, and I had another YouTuber reply that they discovered that my "do not try 15mm" comment was very true. People always ask questions about gear on these models, but they really aren't relevant if you're just starting out. Learning how critical build settings is, and gear placement for avoiding ballast and proper CG setting is far ahead on the list of concerns. I personally would not have had much success with this as a first model, and built the simpler Guillows SE5A laser cut kit as a rud/elev flyer a while before I built this model as a 4ch flyer.

As far as gear is concerned, you need to decide what you want and why. For example, I bought a Spektrum unit a few years ago, because they had micro gear that other companies did not offer, and I like micros. In general, I think this hobby is one where you have to decide "I really like this and I'm gonna do this no matter what" if you want to have success. Looking at it that way, it makes sense to buy what you will need to fulfill your requirements for some time to come. I would just focus on buying a good transmitter, and worry about buying gear as you need it.

I don't like recommending gear, as I believe people should experiment and decide what they like. There is no "best". When I built this, the GWS Pico was my favorite servo for models like this, and the HS55 was more expensive, as well as heavier. Now the HS55 is cheaper, and there are countless servos far cheaper than both that work well. I generally use 5gm range for planes this size, and don't like to pay more than $5 each now.

MarceloMichelazzo
08-14-2014, 09:27 PM
Hello Bill
You know, I am not as noob as I was when I wrote you. I got all my gear for this model and it's doing very well. I give it a break of some months because I wanted to finish another one made of foam for learning to fly because It would be a pity to break my Sopwith Camel at the first flight.

So, I keep visiting this especific post and I read MANY times and I am always ashame of ask you something that is the main purpose of this thread:

"CG set at 10mm back from LE of bottom wing"

I wonder it in several ways, think about it hanged upside down and after many months, I didn't get it.
Could you tell me what means LE?
I still can't figure out where do I put the center of gravity because of that.

Thanks a lot!

Abuelo
09-20-2014, 10:31 PM
Marcelo,

Every sport and activity seems to have its own vocabulary and the use of initials for what is perceived as common knowledge. Easy to forget that newcomers aren't familiar with the terms. These may help:

LE = Leading Edge. This would be the very front edge of the wing.
TE - Trailing Edge
CG or C/G = Center of Gravity
RET = Rudder, Elevator, Throttle. Sometimes an A is included, for Aileron.
LG = Landing Gear
Fuse - Fuselage

gman1969
12-05-2014, 10:49 PM
here are some pics of my attempt at a camel electric rc conversion,its my first model for about 30yrs so its a bit of a steep relearning curve.any hints tips and comments would be welcome.Ive used rx and servos from my parkzone supercub but im currently looking for a motor and battery>

gman1969
12-05-2014, 10:51 PM
when i work out how to post pics on here

gman1969
12-05-2014, 11:41 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B15CTP83N_K1dU1VTVhGeFZVMFE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B15CTP83N_K1c2Fnb3IzaTlHVUk/view?usp=sharing

gman1969
12-05-2014, 11:42 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B15CTP83N_K1c2Fnb3IzaTlHVUk/view?usp=sharing

gman1969
12-05-2014, 11:43 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B15CTP83N_K1dHFVYUc1RW9FRms/view?usp=sharing

gman1969
12-05-2014, 11:44 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B15CTP83N_K1NDhyZnViaE8zamM/view?usp=sharing