View Full Version : 24" WS Nieuport 11

10-21-2008, 07:41 AM
The Nieuport 11 is one of my favorite WW1 planes. Originally I purchased this Guillows laser cut kit quite a number of years ago but waited for electric tech to change and for my life to settle down a little. Upon a time I built a Guillows DR1 gas conversion but once the building was finished I started to move quite a bit and the model unfortunatly never got covered and eventually just got broken into many pieces over the years.

Last year I started this plane and built most of the fuselage and the lower wing as well as quite a bit of the work with all the ribs for both wings, and some incomplete stain work. But then life demands crept up on me again and I had to stow away the little be'be'.

Much of this build has taken me into quite a number of new directions that I've never attempted before and as such many things I would do slightly differently but for the most part I've been pleased enough to include many of the "draft" designs as completed pieces as opposed to rebuilding them once a little hindesight crept in. Others I may still go back and redo. Your all on board now and hopefully this thread and your support (however cruel) will help me finish and get this sesquiplane up in the air and back again in one piece. Its not being built to be a hanger queen; with a little luck it'll go up more than once.

Much of the design off the Guillows plan has been ignored or changed for a different opinon for scale; however, I offer my kindest regards to Guillows. My funds and information (or lack of) didn't help greatly in building a true scale version.

10-21-2008, 08:27 AM
These shots show some of whats been built so far.

The fuselage I built by building two sides from 1/8th inch spruce and then the front was sheeted as well as the tail support. I got some very thin wire and laced each half. Then I got a bit excited as I recall and attempted to stain, but obviously this was far too early to do so or I should have stained all my wood at that time since now you can see I will need to patch-stain.

The wire in the fuse added a great amount of strength particularly under flex. I will probably be cutting out all of the fuse wire however and be restringing it with a better method.

The wheels where actually quite easy to make. I started by seeing if I could build a couple axles out of small brass tubing and some nippled washers. The washers point towards each other on the short lengths of tube and on the outer side I left approx an eighth inch for spoke spindling.

Next I took 1/64th inch birch plywood into thin 1/8th inch or so width cuttings and staggering them, I laminated them together around a proper sized object (big mouth of an orange drink). That gave me a fairly round wheel. Next I built a jig to hold the axle center and the wheel round around it. Drew up a lace pattern of twenty spokes to a side and drilled the small holes.

The wheels together once laced weighed less than a gram and where suprisingly stiff; I thought they might actually work! So I had to find a way to make a tire. There are other folks here who have made tires from similar rubber, vacuum hose from a local auto parts store. It was about the perfect size 1/4 inch round and black. I shaved off the thin piping on the hose and ground a flat spot down the length of the tubing and simply glued it on my wheel and together at the seam with thin CA. Individual they come in at 4 grams and 8 grams together.

In many of the pictures I've taken I put a quarter to give a little perspective to size. Sorry about the fuzzy pictures, I'll have to see about using a better camera.

10-21-2008, 09:35 AM
This shows the semi-scale build of the aileron bell crank system. I could have used a lighter dowl, but I wanted to stick with wood and I wanted to avoid as much twisting as possible. I think its a 1/8 inch dowl. But you really have to pay close attention to the section of dowl your going to use, these often aren't straight.

The bell cranks as of yet aren't actually attached, they (like the rest of the plane) really just fit together snug. I need to work out the final stretch of my linkage that spans vertically the gap between fuse and wing as well as the bell crank box.

Depending on where the bell crank gets set, you can see the range of motion availiable on the ailerons.

I was able to trim most of the guillows trailing edge away since I strengthend the ribs with ply. But I think that was a mistake, using the guillows ribs I mean. I should have just cut my own; it wouldn't have took me much more time than it took me to make these and I would have gotten a bit of undercamber and a rib that could have been used with even a thinner trailing edge. Next time I'll do something similar but will open the ribs up probably twice as much with lightening holes and increase rigidity with tightend line.

10-21-2008, 09:49 AM
As the profile off the Guillows kit plans was used to frame up "my own" design, so was the general size and shape of the rudder, elevators and horizontal stab used.

The majority of wood here is 1/8th spruce with a particular eye for grain direction used. Running with the grain, one side of the wood was laminated with a length of 1/64th inch birch ply. My aim was to both make the surface more rigid in flight and also to keep the hinge points strong and light. All pieces where shaped and clean before any trimming or glue work. Certain corner members where strengthend with a tightly bowed length of ply. While the large curves of the twin elevators was made by three consecutive layers of previously mentioned ply.

The shape was made with the first layer. Pins removed and surface checked for level, then an outer layer of ply added to the shape. Lastly the third layer was applied on the interior and wraped past joint lines to sandwich spruce structure into ply structure (as vaguely visible on rudder of third pic where only two layers instead of three where used). Then ply was shaped carefully with sandpaper and files.

Ply hinges with sunken graphite pins into elevators. The second pic is even more terrible and most all the detail is completely fuzzed-out. But you can vaguely see the notch in the spruce, thats where the ply hinge fits into perfectly. I routered out a channel across the notch to hold the graphite pin. There are two small holes drilled in the middle of each half of channel for the wire brace to hold the pin. A very small amount of material is carefully routed away to make room for this. The wire is drawn tight on the "inside" of the elevator by twisting and tacked in place with thin CA. Careful not to glue the ply hinge to pin. Gluing has not been done in these photos; neither has final trimming of or completion of wire ties been made.

10-21-2008, 09:52 AM
Heres the pics.

10-21-2008, 10:23 AM
It took me a while to figure out how I was going to attach the lower wing and the landing gear, and in conclusion I'm not sure I've actually decided yet. I'll just have to see what I end up with. Joking aside, this delema came up because I built the bellie of the fuse with a lower wing saddle as the Guillows plans call for. This coupled with the intention of having proper working flying wires and a worthy landing gear and the difficulties of covering after assembly, have made the solution a bit perplexing.

In retrospect I probably would have built the lower wings as seperate wings that would attach into the fuse. This would allow me to get a sturdy gear and allow me to be able to cover the wings pre-assembly.

My solution is to build the lower wing removable. The leading edge slips over the top of the rear brace of landing gear. Which in turn snugs up to the reinforced material in the wing. A snug fit is important here, if there is a slight gap, the landing gear could break the wing. Suport may also get extended from the wing to the fuse, but as all ww1 planes tail weight is bad.

So far, it looks like it may actually come out a little nose heavy which is good, then I can add the pilot I have being flown in from overseas (Thanks Pete, heres a plug for ya http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260276401753). AUW so far has come out to be 8.4 oz. Definatly not the lightest N11 here, but that doesn't worry me too much I'd prefer to have a nice rigid structure.

10-21-2008, 10:32 AM
The Cowl, center struts and landing gear are going to be or have recieved a layer of foil tape. As will the "cheeks" yet to be made. The foil tape is quite easy to work with and fairly forgiving. I shaped a stick to be used as a smoothing tool to fully press out the tape and it can be pressed in this fashion into a compound curve fairly well; however, the cowl needed to be made in two seperate pieces but the stuff matches up pretty easily.

Scour with a scuff pad, superfine grit paper and/or buff. I mostly scoured mine, also you'll need to wash it afterwards. Baby wipes work well if you cant stick it under the sink with a little soap and water.

10-21-2008, 10:44 AM
Ooops here's a shot I forgot to post about the landing gear into the lower wing. Its difficult to see how the landing gear slips into the small pockets on the underside of the wing. This was the only solution I could come up with without a lot of rebuilding. So the Under side of the bottom wing will have two small open "boxes" in front of the the rear landing brace.

They might get covered up, depending on how its looking weight wise when I frame in the will-be-removable-bellie hatch. The servo tray is also removable if I need to up battery and/or motor.

10-21-2008, 10:59 AM
Flying wires. I made up a jig to test some different methods to make proper functional wires. I was mostly focused on thier utility and weight over thier form. Because turnbuckles use two screws, one with reversed threads and I couldn't find either any small and light enough turnbuckles or any reverse thread screws of the proper size.

So I ended up with a dual mount design that anchors to a small loop of "wire" (25 pnd no stretch test) and . . a screw. It also uses an aluminum screw tie in and a very small aluminum tightening ring (I didn't want to fiddle with a rabbit ear).

However, after I had prepared the N11 for this method, I came up with a better one by actually building a one sided turnbuckle. Sorry for the fuzzy pics. This can be anchored with two "wire" anchors, one very small swivel, one synching ring and two tiny release hooks. Both methods allow all the wires to be removed, changed, tightend and loosend; however the second one not only looks much better its lighter and also easier to adjust. Or at least I'd imagine its easier to adjust since a screw driver isn't needed. I've been able to bend a popsicle stick framework and the turnbuckles are easy to turn with fingers. I also wanted to add that all tightening is done after the line as been synched in as much as possible with needle nose. The coin in the photos is a dime (close to 18mm dia).

10-21-2008, 04:47 PM
It's going to be quite the looker. I'm frightened by the wing loading though.

What are your plans for motor, and also covering?

10-21-2008, 06:36 PM
Thanks 7c7, I agree.

I'm not certain exactly how to calculate wing loading or how trustworthy the math in this program is: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/eflight/calcs_wingload.htm

Guillows claims the wing area is 147 square inches but that has to include the center section of the lower wing buried in the fuse. Using that figure and a guess of AUW, I get a wing loading of approx 8.8 oz/sq ft. so I'm hoping that it will be ok. Honestly I think she's going to wiegh in between nine and ten oz AUW. My wing measured in at 142.49 sq. in, and using that figure (measured the wings omitting the mid section of the lower wing) and following the math formulas provided at that link with a even a weight of ten whopping ounces I get a wing loading of 10.106. The Great Planes DR1 and DVII both have wing loadings slightly higher than that and seeing them in flight, they almost look overpowered zipping around. But who knows, like I mentioned earlier this build is taking me into many new directions and figuring out WL by me should at least be taken with a grain of salt. I would prefer to rely on experience since some things like flight don't scale down perfectly.

As far as covering goes, I think I'm going to do tissue. I really wanted to try silkspan, but I have none of the components or experience with it to know how the final product would add to this little gem. I suspect it would allow me to use my painting skills and I would definatly prefer that.

Tissue will be weak, but light and I like the look I can get with it. Repairs aren't too difficult either, but painting really isn't an option is it?

The motor I have installed is an E-flight Park 300 Brushless Outrunner and claims to be ideal for 3D of 6 to 9 oz and sport/scale of 8 to 12 oz.

For a battery I'm tentatively using a 7.4v 500 mah 2s lipo but may upgrade it to a 3s.

EDIT 11/2/08: Running on a 2s and including a pilot and covering I'm certain the AUW will be between 9 and ten oz. I know its a wide range but I'm only figuring on such a wide range to approximate if I have enough power. Correct me if you see an error but at nine oz I get an effective watt per pound at 92.09 with a wing loading of 9.12 lbs per sq ft. At ten oz my effective watt/lb = 82.88 with a wing loading of 10.13 lbs/sq ft. When I consider all the drag with wires, wings, gear, etc I guess it should fly slow and fairly scale like. But fly non-the-less. :)

I'm definatly crossing my fingers that the power to drag and weight to lift coefficients will be acceptable. Unfortunatly my engineering skills lack the math to figure all of that out ahead of time.

In this photo you can see the motor and a half of the Guillows dummy engine that may get substituted for a paper model of a Le Rhone: http://www.sero-papermodels.com/content.do?page=page.2_download2 I also am looking into a different prop nut and may settle with a simple nut and a custom washer to give the prop a bit of scale look.

I definatly prefer the look of a wooden prop, but for the time being its not getting changed. Current prop is an 8 X 3.8 and seems to get the assembled plane taxing across my carpet at approx 1/3 throttle quite swiftly; if covered I think it might be enough to raise the tail slowly. While on the carpet the thin wheels sink and it takes that much throttle to pull it out of its rest. On tile, a quarter throttle gives it a similar advance.

While holding the tail and advancing to half throttle, she definatly wants to let her hair down. Full throttle is a no brainer - she really wants to party; however, at full throttle I also get a bit of a vibration which I think is coming from the mounted dummy engine. Its minor, but one of the very reasons I've tried not to build with many metal on metal components.

The tail will all be pull-pull and I am going to need to build a few pullies to get the line inline with my servos.

10-21-2008, 07:43 PM
Have you got one of these?

You should be able to use that to balance your dummy motor and get rid of the vibration.

It'll work on anything that'll fit over the axle shaft and fit within the confines of the rig. It's magnetically suspended and very sensitive.

10-21-2008, 10:47 PM
While holding the tail and advancing to half throttle, she definatly wants to let her hair down. Full throttle is a no brainer - she really wants to party; .

What I like to do is hold the plane around the fuse, just forward of the tail group, and point it straight up. Then give it full throttle. I like the plane to tug real good, and just about go vertical with my hand loosly holding it. Just a simple way to see if the setup can hold the weight of the plane a bit. We're not usually going for pure vertical with a plane like this, but if it's semi close, you'll be good!

Bill G
10-22-2008, 07:10 PM
It's going to be quite the looker. I'm frightened by the wing loading though.

What are your plans for motor, and also covering?While my vintage Guillows planes are not indoor floaters which could be flown while half asleep, they do better than I expected for the weight.
My SE5A is probably close to 8oz and the DR1 close to 7oz, after adding sufficient noseweight. They'll surprise you with how much weight they can handle.

10-23-2008, 07:14 AM
Well thats good to hear, Bill. I was trying to build it AUW below eight, but as I have said earlier, I'd rather it be good and stiff and have to fly it a little faster. That is to say that I am concerned over the weight a great deal still and am worried that between all the flying wire drag and weight that it may not float at all. I know you've done a lot of these little birds, what sort of battery size and prop size do you lean towards? BTW I also prefer wooden props for the flavor of WW1. One plus I definatly have is it is a bit nose heavy, but once I consider putting anything in the cockpit . . . Gulp.

7car7, that's a good idea. And after I tried it after hanging everything that I could think of on it, plus a little . . . It just was shy of lifting straight up. So my spirits aren't lifted too much concerning my current battery and prop choice. My maiden will definatly be ROG and I'll make sure to pay close attention to the climb rate. Perhaps I'll just adjust things before that until I get a little more boost out of it. I don't know; I'm not building it to fly anywhere close to 3D, but I'd also prefer have more power than too little. :)

Gnasher, I use to have one of those a hundred years ago; that reminds me I need to get one of those. Thanks!

Even if I consider putting all this effort in and it crashes, I have gained a lot from this build and may consider doing one just a tad larger. I dunno maybe a DVII or a N 16~27

The flying V-struts are giving me some entertainment still as I'm trying to get them to do the perfect job. I'm not fully decided on how to attach them. It seems I keep considering a pin system as opposed to permanantly attaching them. With the flying wires, the struts really are just to align wing incidence's and provide the proper space beween the wings. Either way the current V-struts I think I've over built so there might be yet another set on the way (currently on Mk-3).

Thanks for the feedback fellas.

10-29-2008, 08:35 AM
Well work has - as usual - been going slow.

Good news is the V-struts finally fit and align the wings properly. The slow work now has been on the ailerons.

My design calls for three bell cranks but one of them is actually a dual direction and alignment bell crank. It changes the horizontal control into vertical control for simultaneous aileron actuation to the sides of the fuselage. Below is a crude map of this bell crank since my camera just doesn't pick up the detail; however, there is a previously posted pic of it and a duplicate of it is also shown here.

A. Horizontal linkage to left servo arm
B. Horizontal linkage to right servo arm and arm for vertical linkage to Right wing aileron Bell crank
C. Vertical linkage to Left wing aileron Bell crank
D. 1/16th aluminum tubing
E. Pin inside tube and pin anchor
F. Hinge connected to servo tray (at bottom)

My problem is my ailerons wont auto zero when the stick is centered. Instead they need to be lightly countered on the radio. The Red arrow is where I've spotted some play when the servo is actuated. So I'm going to build one (or two) more hinge(s) and anchor near the pin to the servo tray. Hopefully that will take care of it and allow my ailerons to auto zero after deflected.

Bill G
10-29-2008, 07:13 PM
Hat's off to you, reducing servo count and using bellcranks. I've always been a fan of using only 1 aileron servo and a cable/wire system, partly due to not wanting to buy another servo.:D I've more recently been giving in and using the 1 servo per aileron method, for ease of construction.

I've used bellcranks for internal elevator linkage. One thing with the bellcranks is that the play is exaggerated when they are in-line with the pushrods, and there is a good deal of motion there where basically nothing happens. The obvious solution is to adjust the linkage lengths such that the bellcranks do not line up with the pushrods in there range of motion. In other words, have them set at 45 degrees to the pushrods when the ailerons (or whatever surface they operate) are in center position.

As for wing alignment, I't tough even with these laser cut kits. There are some approximations made, as the angled fits were not all tweaked using 3D cad. I did quite a bit of tweaking to get the Guillows Sopwith wing to sit properly, and it was designed on the drawing board back then.

10-30-2008, 07:45 AM
Thanks Bill. Its humbling to put work up on the internet after seeing so many other builders perfection. Your comments are appreciated. All the bell cranks and pull wires are one of the very things I love about WWI aircraft. I just couldn't pass up the head ache of them and look at my build the same once finished.

. . . One thing with the bellcranks is that the play is exaggerated when they are in-line with the pushrods, and there is a good deal of motion there where basically nothing happens. The obvious solution is to adjust the linkage lengths such that the bellcranks do not line up with the pushrods in there range of motion. In other words, have them set at 45 degrees to the pushrods when the ailerons (or whatever surface they operate) are in center position.

Now this really is interesting to me. I don't fully understand how play could be exaggerated, but I recall seeing pushrod set ups at 45 degrees. I just thought they had done that to avoid an X and Y axis. As that would give some very slight weight savings in itself. Perhaps, my particular scenario is just not a good enough example for me to understand how motion is lost.

If I creep my radio control and eye the servo, bell cranks and ailerons they all appear to creep the same in both directions (except when it comes to returning to zero in either direction); I can see no or next to no loss of motion. Perhaps the loss of motion that your mentioning comes from too small of push rod through too large of hole in a bell crank? Although that would not be the case in this set up, the rods fit snug but do not bind. Or maybe you mean when a servo is aligned directly it pushes the bell crank against its pin as opposed to pushing around it? Which also probably wouldnt apply since I have detected no lateral sway. Those are the only two scenarios I can think of to try to understand what you mean.

Alternatly, perhaps you mean off setting the servo arm to, for example, two rearward facing arms at a ninety to each other and a 45 degree to the surface thier pushing? Except unless the surface they are pushing is also set at a ninety to the servo arms, both servos would gain more movement one direction than another I suspect.

Hopefully, when you clue me into how this happens, it will describe the problem my non-zeroing ailerons are facing. Since after very close inspection I doubt that I'm loosing the returning alignment to the very subtle advancement near the pin (as shown by the red arrow in previous post) although I suppose that is some lateral movement :).

Bill G
10-31-2008, 02:51 AM
I guess these things start to become the "picture worth a thousand words scenario":D

11-02-2008, 08:01 AM
I was able to hinge the rudder and fill in some holes on the upper deck of the fuse made by initial alignment of the wings with first set of V-struts.

Hopefully later today I'll be able to at least seal the upper deck and finish up the patch stain work needed on the fuse. The wings and tail feathers will get no such stain.

The bellie will probably get finished with some tiny rare earth magnets (still not arrived yet).

There where a few pictures taken of the making of the rudder hinges which I'll try to get loaded up today as well.

Although I'm trying to avoid as much tail weight as possible to give enough carrying capacity for the pilot, I did have to stiffen the rudder a little, probably added almost a gram. Last AUW including pilot with minimal lightening came in at 250 grams, or 8.4 oz.

11-02-2008, 12:47 PM
Rhino, use a 3 1/2" floppy disc for the hinge material. It weighs next to nothing and has absolutley no resistance to control input. It's all I'm going to use from here on out. Check out the floppy disc hinge thread I started. Martin

11-03-2008, 02:06 AM
Thanks, Scalercflyer! Unfortunatly I didn't pay much attention to the idea as I heard about it a couple weeks ago. Drum it up to a hard head I suppose or the fact that I had already decided how I was going to do my hinges. I think I'll probably give it a shot on the next go around however; they seem quite easy to make.

On a less-bright-note, my plywood hinges are all finished and glued in but the pin on an elevator and rudder hasn't been fastend yet.

Heres some pics of the process. I'm sure this has got to be more laborious than using the floppy disc material slipped into a seam and weighs more. None-the-less I hope you enjoy my "quality" photos.

The first pic is the tail of the fuse notched for the twin rudder hinges. This was done by first drilling a hole then squaring it with a razor and small square file.

Secondly, is the four layer stack of 1/64 in Birch ply where each layer is actually three. I felt I needed the extra thickness (twice what I built the elevator hinges out of) to help control bi-lateral movement of the rudder when actuated. For the same reason was why I also stiffened the rudder so on close inspection of pictures to follow you may notice the rudder is slightly different than in previous or current shots here.

Next you see the hinges with a hole drilled in each and after that was done final shaping of the hinges was completed with a Dremel tool and small hand files. I didn't realize that the small t-pin in the shot for scale had been cut down slightly and used in part for the vertical pins in the flying V-struts.

The following shot is the hinges anchored with wood glue and some thin ca into the tail.

The hinge pattern was scribed onto the Rudder and carefully cut out with a combination of files, blades and dremel tool. This camera I'm using doesn't have a macro feature unfortunatly to see the room made for the pin.

The next pic shows the carbon pin in both hinges, and finally the fitted rudder to the fuse.

11-03-2008, 08:48 AM
Rhino, being a scale nut myself, I sure appreciate the effort you put into that hinge and your project as a whole. I love anything that pertains to WWi aviation. The study of WWI aviation has been and still is a lifelong passion for me. I collect reference material as well plans for WWI aircraft. My library is always growing and expanding. My plans are available to anyone interested in them (most of them 400 size). The only thing I ask is that the requestor pay for the copying and postage. The list is too long to post, but if you are interested in any particular plane or if you need some research done, just PM me. Keep up the good work. All the Best, Martin

11-03-2008, 08:50 AM
Rhino, where did you get that pilot? He looks fantastic. martin

11-03-2008, 11:23 AM
I love anything that pertains to WWi aviation. The study of WWI aviation has been and still is a lifelong passion for me. , Martin

If you would like to hear a tale about shooting at a WWI plane told to me by my Dad as told to him by his Uncle,a WWI vet, my Dad was probably in his teens when told, PM me.

11-03-2008, 11:36 AM
Thanks Martin, I think he looks great too. Really quite a good fit for this N11. I put a link up in Post #6 for it, but here is another one for conveniance http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Petes-Pilots. Mine initially weighed 15 grams, but I think you could keep the entire sculpt and lighten it to close to 11 grams if you where really careful. The exterior was a very clean cast and my experience with Pete was nothing short of satisfied.

More time was put into the sculpting of the face than any of the other parts. This is clearly visible when looking at the textures in comparison, but once painted the extra work he put on the face should really pop. The clothing by slight contrast, should also turn out really well since a rougher texture there will take away very little; unfortunatly its not a "sculpted" texture which would definatly add to the final work.

The polyurethane mix that he uses is suprisingly light and holds the detail as well. It can easily be cut, sanded, ground down, filed and drilled. Be careful of your fingernails though, if not careful you could press them in the cast. Extra detail could easily be added during the lightening process.

11-07-2008, 08:25 PM
Control horns for the rudder and pull-pull rudder cables have been set up. The Fuse bellie has been roughed in; however, the mechanism to hold it in place hasn't been made yet.

I'm probably going to use four small rare earth magnets: two mounted between the framing of the fuse and two on the forward sides near the landing gear. They will "slip into alignment". The rear of the bellie hatch will have a ply mount to the removable lower wing LE.

The main reason for this design is so the servo tray can be removed. In order to remove the servo tray, I cannot loose any of the interior dimension of the bellie. In other words, the entire lower front fuse openable area can not be reduced in order to be able to squeeze the servo tray and radio gear out. Yet it also must be secured by a recessed hatch.

I am slightly worried over this mounting method since the strength of the magnets and the direction of the opening hatch is not set at a ninety degree angle. Instead its set at a zero degrees. This will greatly reduce the weight the magnets can effectivly hold.

Any comments or suggestions welcome, please.

Pics will follow shortly.

11-09-2008, 03:27 AM
The Bellie hatch fits together so well it actually "snaps" in without the use of magnets; however, I am worried about not having some magnetic connector despite the great fit for fear of the part loosening and getting a little air under the front of it.

I sealed the areas still needing stain with a mix of baby powder, white glue and water.

11-09-2008, 03:33 AM
The Cowl cheeks where made by laminating some balsa and carving them down and then hollowing them out. With a quick application of thin CA to increase strength. Covered in aluminum tape. They function as far as drawing air out from behind the firewall.

12-01-2008, 04:23 AM
Just a quick update. Pictures to follow.

I set up the tail feathers as pull pull and it took quite a bit of head scratching to get them just right and also removable so as I can put skin on her. The horizontal stab has two elevators and in keeping with my general insanity I thought I'd try to make them independant (not pinned together) and work in unison.

That was probably one of the most time consuming tasks I've had. One of the hurdles was that the pull pull elevator servo is on the side of the fuse so a line had to come from each elevator and join into a single line while keeping each line with equal taughtness.

But I got it finished and I'm quite pleased with my work; however, I still may end up pinning it . . . or not. The reason I may still decide to pin them together is when the elevators are neutral, there is the possibility under alternating turbulance to butterfly them in opposite directions despite getting all four lines quite taught. If a little up or down is applied to the stick, however, the elevators quickly snap into formation. Since it will probably need some up or down trim, I'm thinking I may take the risk and try it out before joining them with a pin.

Have any of you tried a twin pull pull elevators working in unison that haven't been pinned - and after all the labor, how did it fly?

Current weight without prop or fully lightend pilot = 8.4 oz. and 9.1 oz. with them. Giving a wing loading of 8.5/9.22 oz/sq.ft respectively. Not too bad for all the spruce and ply I've used to make it stiff.

12-01-2008, 07:08 AM
Separate pull/pull elevators!!!! You're a brave man rhino. Nice build, love that rotary.


12-01-2008, 07:46 AM
Thanks Steve. :)

In these pics the radio was on. The first pic shows the "butterfly" deflection I was talking about. The second pic shows how the elevators react in unison to a little up elevator.

The prop took stain very well. It has a longer drying time to paint, but faster to apply as it goes on very thin. This is only one coat.

The completed bell crank housings are the following pic. I was able to figure out where the slop was coming from as I babbled about earlier in the thread to Bill about. Apparently the rods coming up through the deck where rubbing on the rear parasole wing support slightly; however, they are dialed in now even though in these pics the aileron servo isn't installed.

12-01-2008, 08:14 AM
couple more pics I overlooked concerning the rear pull pull rigging.

12-01-2008, 12:53 PM
Have any of you tried a twin pull pull elevators working in unison that haven't been pinned - and after all the labor, how did it fly?

I have pull pull unpinned on a couple of my planes. Can not tell that the elevator is unpinned when flying. Here is how I set mine up.
First I put a short line through the sevros arm, inside holes(I use outside holes for rudder). Tie a small glass bead on each end of the line. Fasten the line in the middle but make it so I can adj the line(I fasten the line under the sevro arm screw). Run a line from one side of upper elevator control horn through one of the beads to opposite upper control horn, only pull slightly tight and fasten. Run line from bottom control horn through bead and to opposite bottom control horn, do not fasten. Take line at sevro loose so it can slip. Pull the amount of tension you want on the lines and fasten. I have found you don't need a lot of tension. Now line up the two sides of the elevator and put drop of glue on the beads so the line will no longer slip. I use white glue so if I need to slip the line I can put water on the glue till it comes loose. Now you can slide the line at the servo to adj the elevators where you need them for trim.

12-01-2008, 07:33 PM
Plane's looking great! Love how you put in the X cables on the fuse - very cool.

12-02-2008, 12:32 AM
A truly fabulous build. :cool: You are paying homage all those brave pilots who flew this plane in combat by building this model. :) I salute you! :D Keep up the good work. Martin

12-02-2008, 02:50 AM
I really dig Nieuports!!!! Steve

12-02-2008, 06:20 AM
Thanks fellas; I really appreciate the comments and support. Its also good to hear that someone else here has tried sucessfully to do seperate pull pull elevators, and thank you for posting how you did them, Degreen60. I'm not very efficient with words so I ommited my method. If anyone reads this and would like to know how I did mine I would be happy to copy it to you in a PM - just PM me a request.

I still have a few odd's and ends to do before covering, but its getting near. I think I'm going to try silkspan. I was able to pick up some quality tissue, some 00 silk and some of the other needed tools at a surprisingly affordable price. The difference in feel and look of tissue to silkspan makes me feel confident to try this method.

Also I may have found some different material to complete the wing wiring with. I'm going to do some testing on it first to decide which is going to be both the most easy to install/reinstall and utilitarian.

As far as covering goes, I'd be interested in hearing what you all have to say about it. I've snagged many, many . . many photo's and color stencils of authentic N11's (or as authentic as we have maybe) and to be direct none of them are my favorite - I like so many. I've even been thinking on covering it in a less than authentic schema which would allow me to show off the 40 spoked wheels and stained decking of the fuse.

Heres a few random stencils. What do you think, any keepers?

12-02-2008, 03:19 PM
On my Albatros (95% scratch build) I used pull pull on the rudder and elevator. Come to think of it, I used it on my Tiger Moth also. I put 2 control horns on the elevator, one on each side like you've done. I did not separate the elevator halves, but I'm sure I probably could and not notice. But with that being said, not really sure why one would want to separate, unless the model requires it for scale rudder/elevator placement or shape. Certainly would not give a benefit, other than the builder knowing it's like the real one.

So, the way I rigged mine was with a loop of string going frrom the top of the left control horn, then forward, just a few inches aft of the servo, then back to the top of the right control horn. Then, a string is tied with a good knot around this loop, then brought to the servo, and tied to a wire. The wire has a tiny loop bent into the end of it, and the straight end is put into one of those tiny servo connectors for a push rod to go through. Obviously the bottom of the two control horns get the same treatment, to the opposite side of the servo.

After that's all done, I can adjust each side of the elevator by moving the knotted string that goes around the loop. Sliding the knotted string will put more tension on one side or the other. When everything is in position, lock it together with CA and acelerator, or epoxy if you're not lazy like me.;-)

Oh, and as far as your paint schemes, I like the second one, just because it's different. Don't see too many orange WWI planes. And I like the one your wife doesn't like.;)

12-02-2008, 03:28 PM
As far as Silkspan, I really like it.
It certainly has it's issues, mostly being fragile. But I have NEVER damaged my Albatros from regular flying and an occasional nose over. I even punched it into some bushes on the end of it's runway "slowdown" once. NO damage. However, I have put a tiny screwdriver through it without even trying, and also a fingernail (or maybe just a finger). So, moral of the story is, if you can take VERY good care of it in the "hangar", then you'll be fine.

I really like the look that it gives. Just the right amount of "sheen", and is slightly translucsent. That can be good or bad of course, but you adjust that with how much opache dope or paint you use.

And it's not hard to use at all, I really do like puting it on. For your smaller/lighter structures, (tail group) you'll want to pre-shrink the silkspan. Spray it with water, then let it dry. Then put it on the plane.

What's driving me crazy is I can't remember what shrinks LESS - Butyrate or Nitrate. I've only used Butyrate.

(ah, found what I was looking for - check out this single post... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9858594&postcount=338)

12-02-2008, 05:40 PM
I did use paracute silk. I had a source to get free used flare paracutes. I really like that silk. I have been thinking about seeing if I could use water thinned Apple Barrel acrylic paints to see if they would shrink the silk tight and hold it tight.

12-02-2008, 05:45 PM
Did you look here for paint scheme? http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/N_11.html

12-03-2008, 06:18 AM
Thanks for the replies fellas and another method to do a split tail pull pull, 7car7 as well as the link.

The parachute silk sounds very interesting. No doubt heavier, but would look good I'd bet. The acrylic paint could work. Let me know how your test turns out. I was planning on using acrylic with this project.

7c7, its reasurring to hear your experience with the silk and I must say your Albatros look sweet. Thanks for the input.

Say, WWI Ace, a lot of us are still waiting to see some of those Eindecker pics!! :D

12-15-2008, 09:34 AM
Just a quick update on the Nieuport. I made the turnbuckles from brass and aluminum instead of hard wood - much better looking, more functional and way quicker to make a total of twelve. And wouldnt you know it just as I finished them I found very small manufactured double ended bell cranks just as small as the ones I made. Oh well, saved me about $80.

For rigging I used teflon by du bro instead of spyder line. Its smaller and doesn't seem to stretch at all. Almost all of the rigging is complete except for two lines to adjust incedence from the lower wing (I ran out of fasteners). The bad news about using this stuff is from about twenty feet away you can't even hardly see the wire's, but up close it looks pretty sweet. I'll try to get some high res shots before it gets skinned.

The landing gear and all main struts are finished in brushed aluminum.

Tests showed I did need some sort of clasp for the bellie hatch as at full rpm tests the hatch got blown off. Fixed with two, tiny, countersunk, rare earth magnets.

The stringers on the rear deck are finally in. That completes all the functional building.

And here's a list to wrap things up: Cockpit details (thinking about building much of it from paper - dunno), windjam, threading the axle ends, skin it and last but not least finishing touches.

12-15-2008, 05:21 PM
Sounds good! Can't wait to see more of it.

12-15-2008, 11:28 PM
I wanna see it Rhino!!! Steve

12-20-2008, 09:30 PM
High def pictures coming, I hope.

I've been trying to dial the wings and incedence in correct with the rigging. One of the center struts "squeezed" inside its seat a wee bit further (approx. 1 mm) than I could have predicted with rig-less fitting. Its a time consuming process like everything is for me, particularly this time of year with heavy snowfall, the family and Christmas.

But I will get some pics before she gets skinned.

01-09-2009, 04:25 AM
Ok so I finally found my highdef camera and got some pics - problem is I'm still looking for the cable to download them to my pc. :blah:

Anyway on the bright side, I was able to get all the flying wires dialed in right - as right as I am aware anyway. Then they got labeled and removed for model covering.

I'm going to cover it in a custom fashion with some reflection to historic accuracy - but not as much as I had originally been planning.

The silk span is going quite well. Very slow as my usual pace trots along, but good. Here are some pics of the process that I'm sure most of you could do with your eyes closed.

01-09-2009, 05:59 AM
Work of art rhino.

01-09-2009, 06:32 PM
Looks great! I love the covering stage, really pulls everything together.

02-27-2009, 06:06 PM
RHINO,thats just the PERFECT build,any updates? Ive been following the thread since the begining . Cant wait for the punch line. BRUT

02-27-2009, 09:56 PM
. . Ive been following the thread since the begining . Cant wait for the punch line. BRUT

Thanks Brut! Unfortunatly the only updates I have is the upper wing is almost fully covered and the fuse covering hasn't started yet - so no, no real updates. Its only been a matter of real life issues with work and kids and what not, but the weather is going to break soon so I need to get her finished real quick.

Thanks for the kind words, following the thread and giving me a lil kick in the pants to finish it up!

02-27-2009, 10:46 PM
Im just waiting untill Sunday to start mine. Your build is a real inspiration. Ill be looking for updates. BRUT

12-15-2009, 05:52 PM
Well Boys, Rhino I won this kit on e-bay really cheap! :D Rhino, I plan to use your building method/technique and include airlerons (after all the real had them didn't they?) :cool:. Should be an interesting build. :) BTW Rhino did you ever fly yours? Marty

08-04-2010, 08:38 AM
I haven't put in the maiden yet, but I'm mighty humbled that you like my method - thanks!

During the process of it getting covered, my wife ended up babysitting this little boy who happend to punch his finger through all my precious work. Anyway, the structure was undamaged, but the frustration led me to let it sit in the corner.

Today as a matter of fact the boss told me I had to finish it or move it. Work begins tomorrow. :)

Have you finished yours, and did you put in a build log? I clearly haven't been popping in frequently enough.