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TobesUK
02-12-2006, 05:30 PM
Dear Flyers, your help with buddy box issues would be very welcome!

I have an Optic 6 RC transmitter and I would like to get hold of a cheap buddy box to connect up to it to teach my son how to fly the plane.

My plane uses channels 1,2,3,4 and 6. Ch 1 and 6 are the ailerons, the other channels are the standard controls.

My questions is, would any 4 channel transmitter with a trainer socket work OK as a buddy box? I am worried that it would not have proper control over the ailerons. Can anyone advise?

Many thanks!

Twmaster
02-12-2006, 05:33 PM
That won't work. You would need to be using only channels 1 thru 4 on the Optic. Been There. Tried That. Failed.

TobesUK
02-12-2006, 05:41 PM
Thanks for the info, Mike. Sounds like my worries were justified! If I could find a cheap one, presumably a 6 channel set with trainer socket would work OK, but would I have to link ch1 and ch6 on the buddy set to mimic the Optic setup?

Twmaster
02-12-2006, 05:46 PM
I guess that would work. You could use another 6 channel transmitter as the buddy box.

ragbag
02-12-2006, 06:11 PM
Just a guess on my part.

The buddy box is not turned on, so all you are using is the gimbles. Can't set the options and have them work with out power?

I dont think it will work with a six channel radio either. Stranger than fiction.:confused:

This is using logic and I could be out in left field with this thought.:)
I will be following this thread, as this is a very interesting subject and would like to be around when we get the answer.

If I can get a chance to try it with my Futaba 6Ax and 9C I will come back with what I find.

By George

ragbag
02-12-2006, 06:24 PM
Here is the 9C setup from the FAQ's on the home site. You could use this as a guide, if you cant find it on your radio's site.

QUOTE

Radio System FAQ
I want to use my radio with a student's radio. How can I let the student use all of the programming, mixes, etc that my radio has to offer?
___ 1. First turn on the student radio. If it is a computerized radio, choose a clean model using the default settings of 100% on throws (ATV/EPA).
___ 2. Turn the student radio off and turn on the 9C.
___ 3. From the BASIC programming menu, select TRAINER
___ 4. Turn Dial left to activate trainer (the display changes from INH (inhibited) to OFF if trainer switch is not pulled or ON if switch is pulled.)
___ 5. Press the Cursor Down button once to move to programming aileron. You'll see AIL and FUNC (function). To give the student the same programming as the master, stay with FUNC. You can also press turn Dial Left which takes you to NORM (the student radio now sets rates, throws, mixes, etc), or OFF (which doesn't allow the student to use this channel. This is often used to keep a student from having throttle control so the instructor can control the plane's airspeed, or other functions.)
___ 6. Cursor through the aileron, throttle, elevator, and rudder controls, and confirm they are all to FUNC, or set them to fit your custom needs (by default, channel 5 through 8 are OFF, but can be changed if desired for another application).
___ 7. Next plug up the buddy box, and turn on the plane, set the MASTER transmitter on LOW rates, and match the surface throws (both direction and amount) using the ATV function on the BUDDY BOX. On low rate, you should be able to hold full up elevator on both the master box and the buddy box, and when flipping the trainer switch, see ZERO movement on the elevator. The same applies to the rudder, the throttle, and the aileron.


Now, when you pull the switch to give the buddy box control, the transmitter takes the buddy box stick movements and adds any mixes, expo, etc. that you've programmed into the Master. NOTE: while the student is in control, if high rates are desired, the appropriate switch on the MASTER box has to be pulled.

THATS IT!

END QUOTE

Only furnished as a guide, it can be done on this radio, now I'm thinking you can do it too.:eek:
By George:)

Went into the Hitec site and could not find a FAQ lead. They do have an online forum to tlak to other Hitec owners.
By george

http://www.hitecrcd.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Worth a visit I guess.

TobesUK
02-12-2006, 06:53 PM
Thanks George!
Sounds like Futaba have put more thought into how to use the buddy box than Hitec! There are no configuration options for the buddy box on the Optic 6 and the manual just says you can connect another Hitec FM system as a buddy box with a trainer lead. Thanks for the Hitec forum info - I'll see what's there.

ragbag
02-12-2006, 07:02 PM
Sg kadet EP 42
Berg 5 receiver
two airelon servos
Channel 1 and 5

Futaba 9C/Master
Skysport 4/Buddy Box

Had to get some profesional help (the wife) to operate the buddy box, a first for her. I couldn't do it comfortably by myself, didn't want to drop the 9C.:(

It does work, all functions.
Now this is not saying it will work with the Optic Six.

I've only had one in my hands once the other day, setting up an LT 25 for a friend, definetly had to dig out the book. A nice radio, if I wasn't so far into Futaba that would be my radio of choice. Hitec that is.

As I said in my earlier post, try the forum at the Hitec site, those guys should be a big help.


http://www.hitecrcd.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi



By George:)

slipstick
02-12-2006, 10:54 PM
Futaba put more features in their expensive radios. The cheaper Futabas like the 7C can't do what you want any more than the Hitec can. The expensive JRs have similar features too but not the reasonable priced ones.

For most normal Txs the general rule is that BOTH the master and slave Tx must be able to fly the plane. Any mixing you need, including the Flaperon mix you are using for your dual aileron servos, needs to be duplicated on both master and slave. That includes things like exponential and dual rates if you're using them.

The slave doesn't just use the gimbals as ragbag thought it actually uses the complete encoding and internal mixing system. It may not be switched on but it is powered from the master down the buddy cable (only the actual RF transmission is switched off). The buddy switch just causes the RF transmitting part of the master to listen either to its own encoded signal or the encoded signal from the slave down the buddy cord.

So sorry, you need a 6 ch Tx that will do any mixing you want. If you're only using flaperon mix (ailerons on 1 & 6) I imagine the cheapest you will find will be something like an old Futaba Skysport 6. But be aware that it may not work properly if you then use any more complex facilities on another plane.

Steve

ragbag
02-13-2006, 02:44 AM
Guess I'll have to go get my buddies Optic and play with it.
I do like a challenge.:D
Just not as convenient as my own garage.:)
By George:)

TobesUK
02-13-2006, 10:12 PM
So, in the end I picked up a cheap second hand 4 channel Futaba (£10), and hooked it up to my Optic 6. As Steve said (and he's on the button!) you need to be able to fly the plane on both sets, even though only the master set actually transmits a signal. There's no battery or crystal in the Futaba. So I had to get back to 4 channel control, therefore I used a Y-splitter for the ailerons on ch1. Hence I no longer have flapperon function I get on the Optic 6, and on the Futaba set I don't get the nice things like end point adjustments, exponential travel, and differential up/down on the ailerons. Plus you need to make sure the trims are set up correctly on each unit, and the directions work correctly. But hey, it works! I just told my son on the Futaba to go gently on the thumbs cause without all the fancy bits the controls end up more sensitive!

Anyway he took over control when the plane was nice and high up and it worked a treat!

Thanks for all the advice.

Twmaster
02-13-2006, 10:13 PM
Great! Glad to see it get sorted out for you!

ragbag
02-14-2006, 01:24 AM
the Futaba set I don't get the nice things like end point adjustments, exponential travel, and differential up/down on the ailerons. Plus you need to make sure the trims are set up correctly on each unit, and the directions work correctly. But hey, it works! I just told my son on the Futaba to go gently on the thumbs cause without all the fancy bits the controls end up more sensitive!

Anyway he took over control when the plane was nice and high up and it worked a treat!

Thanks for all the advice.

I am glad you did get it worked out. The trims will be set up the same on both units, that is part of setting up the buddy box trims to the master. As I said, all you are using is the gimbals and trims on the buddy box.
At least you went forward and got it to work. And going gently on the thumbs is always good advice.

A long time ago I did the simulator for a while, just playing at night with the computor. Caught myself twanging the sticks like a gameboy when I went back to the field.
Got rid of that thing.

Good luck with it all.:D
By George:)

slipstick
02-14-2006, 11:46 AM
As I said, all you are using is the gimbals and trims on the buddy box.
You did say that before but I'm afraid it still isn't true and thinking like that could cause real problems for people trying to set their trainer systems up correctly. The only reason it seems a bit like that with a simple 4 channel slave/student Tx is that it doesn't have much else to use.

If the slave has servo reversing, EPA, exponential or dual rate it uses all of them. If the slave has any mixing (flaperon/elevon etc) it uses those too. All the facilities that the slave Tx has normally when flying models are still there and available when you're using it as a slave Tx for training....and they all need to be set up correctly. E.g. if you connect a slave with elevon mix selected to a master/plane with conventional controls you will get some VERY strange results.

In some ways it would be easier if the slave just sent gimbal and trim positions to the master but I'm afraid that really isn't how it works. Sorry ;).

Steve

ragbag
02-14-2006, 02:47 PM
I have not seen a Skysport 4 with any of the thingys you are talking about.
If you buy a trainer box only it does not have any of the thingys you are talking about,

I guess we should end this line as with the two apple and oranges comparisons it is very confusing, but they got it worked using some of your stuff and some of my stuff and some of their stuff.

I am glad for them and wish them all good flying.

I am not going to take the time to use my 6Ax and 9c to prove it one way or the other. It is a shame Hitec didn't have a FAQ on line.

End of story.

Bye.

slipstick
02-14-2006, 03:59 PM
I am not going to take the time to use my 6Ax and 9c to prove it one way or the other.
Very wise ;).

Steve

TobesUK
02-14-2006, 07:36 PM
Speaking from my newfound experience of setting my Optic 6 and Futaba 4 Tx rigs up, Steve Slipstik is correct, you do have to set up the buddy box for the model you're going to fly using all the budy box's features. When the buddy box has control it uses its stick inputs and applies its own servo reversing and trims etc, which is a pain actually. Much more useful would be a system that allow you to use the gimbals only so that all the set-ups on the master would continue to apply.

It appears that George's Futaba 9C does indeed allow you to configure it to take a clean input from the buddy box and apply all the setups from the master set, but my Optic 6 doesn't do that unfortunately.

ragbag
02-15-2006, 12:06 AM
It appears that George's Futaba 9C does indeed allow you to configure it to take a clean input from the buddy box and apply all the setups from the master set, but my Optic 6 doesn't do that unfortunately.


Please don't get it confused.

The 9C was was setup to fly the plane. The Skysport was the buddybox. The 9C has all the trims in it the Skysport only controls the plane when the trainer button is operated.

All buddy boxes have to be set to match the controls of the radio that is controling the plane.

Buddy boxs, that is designed buddybox, not a Skysport or some other radio being used as a buddy box, do not have an antena.

A lot of the people who do a lot of training use the Skysport because the reversing switchs for the servos are on the face of the radio, unlike a lot of them that you have to pull the battery cover off to get to them, making it easier to go from student to student and change whatever setting that match the students radio/plane.

The ones who can't get their hands on the one type of Skysport with the switchs on the front, throw the battery covers away, not needed and remove the antena, not needed.

Our resident trainer had three students the other day, two with the P51 trainer and the other had a Hobbico trainer of some kind. Same skysport from plane to plane.

Borrowed my buddy cord, left his at the house.

By George.:)

alienx
02-19-2006, 02:58 PM
Futaba put more features in their expensive radios. The cheaper Futabas like the 7C can't do what you want any more than the Hitec can.Steve

Total noob here, but is this correct? I was reading the FAQ's on the Futaba site while I'm waiting on my 7C to arrive. Looks like it actually has a pretty thought-out design for training. But again, I haven't even gotten this in hand yet, so I could totally be misinterpreting what I am reading???

http://www.futaba-rc.com/images/leftmenu-bottom.gifRadio System FAQ

I want to use my radio with a student's radio. How can I let the student use all of the programming, mixes, etc that my radio has to offer? First you will go into the Basic menu, and using your Dial cursor through to the 3rd page. The last item you see will be Trainer. Press the Dial, use the Up Select button til you see INH flashing, just turn the Dial until you see Off.
Next, you will cursor down to the channels that you would like to make functional for the students radio. You will just cursor through selecting which ones you would like the student to have access to use your mixing on. If you have mixes set that you would like them to have access to you will stay with F (Function) or you can set this to N (Normal) and the student can now set rates, throws, mixes, etc. Or you may want to select Off, which doesn't allow the student to use this channel. This is often used to keep a student from having throttle control so the instructor can control the plane's airspeed, or other functions.
Next plug in the students radio, turn on the plane and set the Master radio on Low rates. You will need to match the surface throws in both directions and amounts using the ATV function on the Student.
On low rate, you should be able to hold full up Elevator on both the Master and Student, and flip the trainer switch, at this point you should see no movement on the elevator. This applies to the rudder, throttle and aileron.Now, when you pull the switch to give the buddy box control, the transmitter takes the buddy box stick movements and adds any mixes, expo, etc. that you've programmed into the Master. NOTE: while the student is in control, if high rates are desired, the appropriate switch on the MASTER box has to be pulled.

slipstick
02-19-2006, 03:46 PM
My mistake, it looks like you're right and the 7C does have some of the advanced features of the 9C etc. It's only older 7 ch radios and the current 6 ch computer radios (6EXAS etc) that don't.

So I should have said "Futaba put more features in their more expensive radios. The cheaper Futabas like the 6EXAS can't do what you want any more than the Hitec can."

Steve