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Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 12:41 AM
Hey guys,
I purchased a Rimfire 35-30-950 brushless outrunner for my yak. I managed to somehow damage it after 3 flights, it has a direct short in the windings (I have a theory)

Instead of throwing it away I have decided to try and redo it. There is a problem, I have no experience ;)

This is what I have come up with!
I would like to spin an 11x5.5 APC prop at a max 32 AMPs without frying it! This is what I am currenty running my 2808/24 AXI at but I'm worried about damaging it.

I have managed to get my Rimfire apart, quite a bit of scarring etc on me and the motor. It is a 12 pole 30mm (28.4) 8mm thick with 14 magnets. Similiar motors in my range are running 23 turn 6 strands of #30 (I think)
I'm hoping to run #22 at 14 turns with a Wye termination!

I have questions:
I have read a recipe such as #22- 7 TPT-DLRK-14 turn- 25 AMP etc
I am confuesed with 7TPT and 14 turns, should it not be one or the other?

My stator has some scarrs, what is the best way to make sure I don't get shorts? I like the heatshrink tubing idea but I don't know if I have enough room! How anal do I have to be about this?

I would appreciate any and all advice and maybe a better configuration!

Thanks ????

CHELLIE
08-08-2009, 03:44 AM
Hey guys,
I purchased a Rimfire 35-30-950 brushless outrunner for my yak. I managed to somehow damage it after 3 flights, it has a direct short in the windings (I have a theory)

Instead of throwing it away I have decided to try and redo it. There is a problem, I have no experience ;)

This is what I have come up with!
I would like to spin an 11x5.5 APC prop at a max 32 AMPs without frying it! This is what I am currenty running my 2808/24 AXI at but I'm worried about damaging it.

I have managed to get my Rimfire apart, quite a bit of scarring etc on me and the motor. It is a 12 pole 30mm (28.4) 8mm thick with 14 magnets. Similiar motors in my range are running 23 turn 6 strands of #30 (I think)
I'm hoping to run #22 at 14 turns with a Wye termination!

I have questions:
I have read a recipe such as #22- 7 TPT-DLRK-14 turn- 25 AMP etc
I am confuesed with 7TPT and 14 turns, should it not be one or the other?

My stator has some scarrs, what is the best way to make sure I don't get shorts? I like the heatshrink tubing idea but I don't know if I have enough room! How anal do I have to be about this?

I would appreciate any and all advice and maybe a better configuration!

Thanks ????

Hi Hughes :ws: Toss the motor away, its junk :D not worth it, its too badly damaged, here you go, take care, Chellie


http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the-1428/3530-dsh-14-Outrunner-Brushless-Electric/Detail
the shipping is only $ 2.00

CHELLIE
08-08-2009, 03:55 AM
These power up motors work great too, i have one on a profile katana with a 49" W/S, lots of power with a 3 cell

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the-1530/Power-Up-480-Plus/Detail

Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 04:54 AM
But it's the challenge and enjoyment of the reward!

CHELLIE
08-08-2009, 05:15 AM
But it's the challenge and enjoyment of the reward!

i Know :ws: but if the case and stator are damaged, its too far gone, rewire a motor thats the case and stator are not damaged, that the wires have just burned up, the motor will be out of balance and very dangerious to use, you could get hurt trying to repair and use a badly damaged motor, and the sharp ends will just cut the varnish on the wire and short out ;) Take care, Chellie

http://www.rcplaneworkshop.com/elect...y-utah-fyers-2 (http://www.rcplaneworkshop.com/electric-rc/brushless-motor-winding-by-utah-fyers-2)


http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=401420

Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 06:01 AM
OK, but remember it is a brand new motor, I poked one wrap on one of the phases with a screw driver and that's where I figured the short is! I have done some reading and I've read of guys dremelling the stator to round off the edges but what do they insulate the stator with again? I read epoxy, I have two part epoxy enamel paint?

CHELLIE
08-08-2009, 06:38 AM
OK, but remember it is a brand new motor, I poked one wrap on one of the phases with a screw driver and that's where I figured the short is! I have done some reading and I've read of guys dremelling the stator to round off the edges but what do they insulate the stator with again? I read epoxy, I have two part epoxy enamel paint?

I think both epoxy and epoxy paint will work, I was looking into rewinding a motor too, but, there are different ways to wind the motor, and some winds will not work with some ESC, you have to know what winds will work with a certain ESC, there is YWE or DELTA or DLRK and a ABC wind, that stopped me real quick, and the motors i buy are cheap enough to just throw away, if they go bad, hope that helps, Chellie

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=666877

Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 06:53 AM
I know the feeling, I have been reading for awhile on it and I'm determined, and persistent! Even if it costs me a speed controller or two :ws:

CHELLIE
08-08-2009, 06:56 AM
Good for you, Thats the way we learn :) For me, its just not worth the time and trouble, i would rather be out flying :) Take care and good luck to you, Chellie

Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 07:27 AM
I'm sure I will soon share the same feeling!
Thanks for your replies and links, it's helped a lot!

Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 09:16 AM
Midnight and I'm still studying LOL
Insulating the stator, no worries, I'm going to dip it in orange Epoxy paint after I smooth out some blemishes. Now to figure out the DLRK windings!
I'm looking at AacCBbaACcbB so, A= 1st tooth a= 2nd tooth then the next a equals 7 tooth and then the final tooth 8 completing phase 1 and of course respecting the direction of wrap!
Am I on it?

So far I can get 12 wraps on one tooth, harder than I thought!

Lots of views little help ????

Louis
08-08-2009, 04:26 PM
...

stevecooper
08-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Midnight and I'm still studying LOL
Insulating the stator, no worries, I'm going to dip it in orange Epoxy paint after I smooth out some blemishes. Now to figure out the DLRK windings!
I'm looking at AacCBbaACcbB so, A= 1st tooth a= 2nd tooth then the next a equals 7 tooth and then the final tooth 8 completing phase 1 and of course respecting the direction of wrap!
Am I on it?

So far I can get 12 wraps on one tooth, harder than I thought!

Lots of views little help ????
I've done similar repairs only to be :{:{:{ Ms Chellies right,, you'll Learn alot fix'in um and I now know more than I ever thought I would fiddle'in with um,, I rebiult a zillion Brushed moters But outies back then were $$$$ and I had to try!!!:Q bubsteve

stevecooper
08-08-2009, 05:03 PM
Where's Ron Van when you need him!!! Ron?? bubsteve

flydiver
08-08-2009, 05:19 PM
Ron would post his usual that says go to the motor building links and start reading. It's a do it yourself project, you best be willing to do some work. With credit to Ron:

Kits/wire/magnets/turned parts/bearings/stator/shafts:
www.gobrushless.com (http://www.gobrushless.com/)
www.innov8tivedesigns.com (http://www.innov8tivedesigns.com/)
www.aircraft-world.com (http://www.aircraft-world.com/)
www.customcdr.com (http://www.customcdr.com/)
www.strongrcmotors.com (http://www.strongrcmotors.com/)
More kit manufacturers, listed per country:
http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thre...did=43664&sid= (http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=43664&sid=)

Motor building 101, must read:
www.gobrushless.com/kb (http://www.gobrushless.com/kb)
-> basic overview (1-5)

Tips, tricks, checks and tests, may save you from frying your newly built motor and/or controller:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993 (it's a sticky there)

'Bibles'
www.aerodesign.de/peter (http://www.aerodesign.de/peter) -> English (12slot/14magnetpole only = lrk winding diagram)
http://www.torcman.de/index_e.htm
-> downloads
-> Assembly Procedure
www.powercroco.de (http://www.powercroco.de/) -> English


FWIW a stator that is f##ked up is most definitely NOT a motor to learn on. Down that path lies much frustration, broken and shorted wire.

Rewinding is not an endeavor to cheaply resurrect a cheap motor to save a buck unless you have lots of time and no $$. With cheap Chinese labor (poor sots) you are way behind the budget curve. You do it to learn and get a better (sometimes) product.

Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 06:05 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate the replies.
It's not a budget saving project it's just pure fascination!
I'll probably only do it once....... maybe:Q

flydiver
08-08-2009, 06:34 PM
That's a dLRK motor wind, a bit more challenging than a straight ABC. If you want the info, suggest you do a simple wind on the gobrushless GBv or GBx motor first and read their tutorial on it.

Then read this for dLRK wind info:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736580

Scarred stators are a terror. Shorts are a winders nightmare and bad stators are the main cause. HOW to fix them is a complicated winder's discussion with no straightforward answer.

Hughes500e
08-08-2009, 07:13 PM
Thanks, great link!

kyleservicetech
08-08-2009, 07:44 PM
I know the feeling, I have been reading for awhile on it and I'm determined, and persistent! Even if it costs me a speed controller or two :ws:

Hey, after rewinding that motor and testing it on an ESC, take a look at my posting on Dry Testing Brushless motors in the following wattflyer link.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35216

It just might save that ESC from damage.

I've also rewound a number of motors, both brush and brushless over the years, and had access to "Double Formvar" magnet wire. It's a lot of work. (That Double Formvar wire came in 100 pound spools!)

ron_van_sommeren
08-09-2009, 06:02 AM
... you have to know what winds will work with a certain ESC, there is YWE or DELTA or DLRK and a ABC wind ...All winding diagrams will work. Whether a certain number of winds is ok for running a certain size (too) large prop, that's another story. ... I am confuesed with 7TPT and 14 turns, should it not be one or the other? ...In the early diy brushless days (2000) there was only one flavour, LRK: half the teeth wound. Winds were specified per wound statorpole. Along comes dLRK: all teeth wound. A 10wind LRK motor is the same as a 5wind per tooth dLRK motor. Always make sure how number of winds is specified when using dLRK. No problem when winding LRK or CD-ROM. Did I mention adLRK ;) ? A-symmetric, different number of winds on neighbouring statorpoles of a phase, to use that last bit of free space for copper. ... My stator has some scarrs, what is the best way to make sure I don't get shorts? ...Several insulation methods and a test for checking for shorts during winding, somewhere in first message
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993 ...I like the heatshrink tubing idea but I don't know if I have enough room! How anal do I have to be about this?...Stator edges usually are the culprit. Chamfering/bevelling/rounding/insulating edges is important, and so is insulation of front and end of stator. Insulation in the slots is less important. ... Insulating the stator, no worries, I'm going to dip it in orange Epoxy paint after I smooth out some blemishes...Can you post picture(s) of stator before epoxy treatment? ... Now to figure out the DLRK windings! ...I would go LRK, less chances of making an error. Just use double the winds per wound tooth, compared to dLRK. ....I'm looking at AacCBbaACcbB so, A= 1st tooth a= 2nd tooth then the next a equals 7 tooth and then the final tooth 8 completing phase 1 and of course respecting the direction of wrap! Am I on it?...Yes sir! You are on it. Start and end of wire/phases is also important.
Have a look at these diagrams
http://74.125.79.132/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://www.powercroco.de/Bewickeln.html
-> 12N as bewickeln LRK
-> 12N verteilt bewickeln ('verteilt' = 'distributed', dlrk
-> Bewicklungsschemata understand ('(be)wickeln' = to wind (on))

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

stevecooper
08-09-2009, 07:15 PM
Thanks Ron,, Good stuff!! your bubsteve

Hughes500e
08-10-2009, 06:41 AM
I'm still digesting all of it, very informative indeed!

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 01:40 AM
Okay, I'm back at it with a little lighter headache LOL

My goal: 380-400 watts on 3S spinning an 11x5.5 prop max 30-32 Amps with roughly 10,000-11,000 RPM 75 to 80 grams!

My configuration: dLRK with a Wye termination
14 turn single strand 22g

I have my stator cleaned up and I plan on insulating this evening!

Do I sound close? :blah:

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 04:35 AM
SO, I think I may have went wrong with the above, I divided the Delta wind by 1.7 to come up with the turns for the Wye termination?

I think I may have to multiply the delta turns by 1.7 to get the correct tpt for the star configuration? This will leave me unable to wind the needed turns for the above specs! I believe I am seeing the needed and thus adopted multistrands!

Headache is coming back LOL

kyleservicetech
08-15-2009, 04:38 AM
SO, I think I may have went wrong with the above, I divided the Delta wind by 1.7 to come up with the turns for the Wye termination?

I think I may have to multiply the delta turns by 1.7 to get the correct tpt for the star configuration? This will leave me unable to wind the needed turns for the above specs! I believe I am seeing the needed and thus adopted multistrands!

Headache is coming back LOL


Or, make the wire strands extra long, and try both the Delta and "Y" connections and use the version you like best. I've actually done this. From what I've read, if you go Delta, the number of turns on each leg is more critical. If you are off a turn or two, it might cause problems.

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 05:17 AM
Granted but the end result still won't be the desired watts with less weight if my windings are wrong! I'm still going to play :tc:

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 08:03 AM
Paint is dry, stator looks quite nice!
First pole, managed 12 turns, 2nd pole two cuts on one finger, one cut on another and I can barely wrap 11 turns LOL. LRK you say :p>

I'm going to try for 10 turns and see if I can finish all 3 phases and gain a spinning motor.............

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 08:59 AM
Done for now, I managed to take a picture of my progress!
I left the wires long so I can play with the termination. I know I won't get what I'm after but it's fun nonetheless!

It does look better in person LOL

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 09:42 AM
I just couldn't put it down! It's not the prettiest but it looks to be proper!
I just have to terminate it and do some tests!

I couldn't possibly be successful, we'll see ????

phupper
08-15-2009, 10:24 AM
"I have read a recipe such as #22- 7 TPT-DLRK-14 turn- 25 AMP etc"

That looks suspiciously like one of my posts. I added the TPT to avoid confusion between LRK and DLRK, as Ron said.

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 04:15 PM
I believe you are right, your name sounds familiar. I have done so much reading LOL

I understand now, LRK being twice as many wraps as dLRK!
It would have been easier to understand if you would have put LRK in behind 14 turn for us newbies :D

kyleservicetech
08-15-2009, 04:44 PM
I just couldn't put it down! It's not the prettiest but it looks to be proper!
I just have to terminate it and do some tests!

I couldn't possibly be successful, we'll see ????

Good luck with your testing.

Before doing so, take a look at my posting below:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35216

This will allow dry testing your motor wind job before connecting it to an expensive ESC.

Also note, it is possible to get one of the windings with reversed polarity. If so, that will show up when the above thread describes shorting all the motor windings together and turning the motor with a battery operated drill.

A reversed winding shows up as "Chugging" when spining the motor. Chugging is very obvious if you have it. It's similar to only shorting out two windings rather than all three windings, and spinning the motor.

Only way to find the reversed winding is to first reverse the start and stop connections on winding #1, test for Chugging, then put #1 back to normal, reverse windings on winding #2, test again, and do it to winding #3.

ron_van_sommeren
08-15-2009, 09:30 PM
... First pole, managed 12 turns, 2nd pole two cuts on one finger, one cut on another and I can barely wrap 11 turns LOL...One has to suffer for the great arts :D

Better/easier winding
Do a quick browse of the 'tips and tricks (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993)' thread, several pictures that will make winding easier.
More winding tricks and tools:
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401641
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=381117
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400958

Prettig weekend ;) Ron



Use a wooden dowel. Careful not to stretch thin wire!

stevecooper
08-15-2009, 09:32 PM
Thanks Ron,, Good stuff!! your bubsteve
Ron : Please PM me and Let me ask you a Question for a Bub of mine,, It's a yes or no question about ESC's Bubsteve,,now back on topic!!:Q:Q

ron_van_sommeren
08-15-2009, 09:44 PM
Paint is dry, stator looks quite nice! ...Very nice indeed. How hard is it? Can you make a dent in it with a fingernail?
The colour makes the heart of any Dutchman beat faster ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Orange-Nassau

@Steve
E-mail (not a PM) with my address sent via Wattflyer


Or a use a prop blade, a skewer ...

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 10:13 PM
Okay, moving along.... I'm all giddy!

I have successfully passed all the tests above. I have no readings from phase ends to stator, I have no chugging, everything is smooth and not generating any heat. All 3 phases are producing the same AC current. I have it terminated as Star for now!

Last thing left to do, hook it up to my ESC LOL

*************************
The enamel epoxy is actually quite hard; I was a little worried myself!
I had to go with orange, always have to be different ;-)

Any last minute tips?

kyleservicetech
08-15-2009, 10:43 PM
Okay, moving along.... I'm all giddy!

I have successfully passed all the tests above. I have no readings from phase ends to stator, I have no chugging, everything is smooth and not generating any heat. All 3 phases are producing the same AC current. I have it terminated as Star for now!

Last thing left to do, hook it up to my ESC LOL

*************************
The enamel epoxy is actually quite hard; I was a little worried myself!
I had to go with orange, always have to be different ;-)

Any last minute tips?


I'd place an in line fuse of about 1/3 of your ESC's maximum current rating between the battery and the ESC before your first powerup. So, if your ESC is rated at 30 Amps, put in a 10 Amp fuse, or there abouts. Value of fuse is not critical.

Wind up that motor SLOWLY or the motor startup current will blow that fuse anyway. If all looks good, take the fuse out, put a Whattmeter or similar in the battery circuit, prop it up, and go for it!

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 10:45 PM
IT SPINS~
but.......

I have very little no load current and full throttle yields 10 watts at .9 AMPS..............

I'm going to mount a prop :eek:


EDIT: Kyle, you were seconds too late!

kyleservicetech
08-15-2009, 10:48 PM
IT SPINS~
but.......

I have very little no load current and full throttle yields 10 watts at .9 AMPS..............

I'm going to mount a prop :eek:


EDIT: Kyle, you were seconds too late!

That's reasonable current for a motor of this size, with no prop. Be certain to mount the motor to a suitable mount before putting a prop on it.

I didn't, tried to hand hold it. It took three weeks for my fingernail to feel right after getting hit by that :censor: little bitty prop!

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 10:55 PM
WOO WOO
Not as good as I'd like but.....

I mounted an 11x5.5 APC prop
I managed 151 watts at 13.5 AMPS

I'm thinking it's time to switch the termination!

Quite exciting results really........ for my first try :D

kyleservicetech
08-15-2009, 11:05 PM
WOO WOO
Not as good as I'd like but.....

I mounted an 11x5.5 APC prop
I managed 151 watts at 13.5 AMPS

I'm thinking it's time to switch the termination!

Quite exciting results really........ for my first try :D

If this is a "CD ROM" type motor, 150 watts is about as high as you can go. But, going from "Y" to Delta will increase your RPM by a quite a bit. You'll have to change props though, otherwise you could burn up your motors new windings.

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 11:13 PM
No, it's a new Rimfire 35-30-950 that I inadvertently damaged!

Hughes500e
08-15-2009, 11:39 PM
I'm having a hard time figuring out the delta connection. All the examples I see are either a 9 pole stator or they are wrapped with AabBCcaABbcC
mine is a 12 pole wrapped AacCBbaACcbB

Can someone help put it in simple terms?

Something like the start of phase A is hooked up to the end of phase B and the start of B is hooked into the end of C etc etc

I just can't wrap my head around it!
Also, with mine being wrapped 1st phase A second C third B instead of ABC is there timing to consider when I terminate?

Thanks

Hughes500e
08-16-2009, 02:36 AM
OK, I tried to extrapolate the delta termination from the AabBCcaABbcC........ to use on my AacCBbaACcbB........ windings. What I came up with did not work! The motor armed, and started to spin but ended with 2 turns of the prop then sat and squeeled!

This is how I terminated for delta:

Posts 1&12 were tied together (start A & end B)

Posts 3 and 5 were tied together, (start of C & start of B)

Posts 8 & 10 were tied together, (end of A & end of C)

It doesn't look right at all writing it down????

I need help with this one, I'm stuck:D

Hughes500e
08-16-2009, 02:48 AM
My next attempt would be:
AacCBb.........

If I think in terms of A being phase 1, B being phase 2 and C being phase 3 I would think, my dLRK is ACB instead of ABC, I would terminate it as ABC (thinking clockwise ABC= ACB)
ACB= 7:1 gear ration instead of ABC 5:1

End of A connects to beginning of C
End of C connects to beginning of B
End of B connects to beginning of A

kyleservicetech
08-16-2009, 04:58 AM
My next attempt would be:
AacCBb.........

If I think in terms of A being phase 1, B being phase 2 and C being phase 3 I would think, my dLRK is ACB instead of ABC, I would terminate it as ABC (thinking clockwise ABC= ACB)
ACB= 7:1 gear ration instead of ABC 5:1

End of A connects to beginning of C
End of C connects to beginning of B
End of B connects to beginning of A

That sounds correct, just make certain you don't connect start of A to end of A :Q (Don't laugh, did it once.)

And, if you short all lead wires together, spin the motor with a battery operated drill, and don't get any "chugging", you've got it right.:cool:

Hughes500e
08-16-2009, 05:14 AM
Thanks Kyle, appreciate your input through all this. Quite the learning curve, I'm loving it!

I may have to do a rewind, leads are getting quite short!

Will post results!

Hughes500e
08-16-2009, 05:47 AM
HOLY SMOKES!
I HAVE REACHED FULL SUCCESS :tc:

I have a motor spinning an APC 11x5.5 at 381 WATTS 37 AMPS on a 1500 Mah pack averaging 10.5 volts. Same pack on my other motor 10.5 nominal volts is delivering 290 watts at 32Amps!


I'm going to run my Thunder Power 2200 Mah pack that delivers 390 at 32 and see what happens!

Back in 20min or so to report!

Very happy!

Hughes500e
08-16-2009, 06:05 AM
FULL POWER +

430 WATTS at 42Amps

I would say it's a success LOL

ron_van_sommeren
08-16-2009, 09:29 PM
... I HAVE REACHED FULL SUCCESS :tc:
Congratulations :) Imagine would you can do with a non-fubar stator/kit :)

HOLY SMOKES! ...Now go out into the world and spread the word my son ... ;)

You wrote you did not do a neat wind. It looks neat to me. Neatness has no effect on the magnet circuit, it can only lead to slightly more wire length.
You could use Drive Calc, MM_Calc or WebOCalc to determine Kv, Io, Ri, efficiency etc. All you have to do is take two measurements with two different propsizes and fill in the numbers:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606703

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

CHELLIE
08-17-2009, 01:33 AM
FULL POWER +

430 WATTS at 42Amps

I would say it's a success LOL

Nice Going Hughes :ws: See, Perseverance pays off :D Take care, Chellie

Hughes500e
08-17-2009, 06:44 PM
Thanks, I'm actually sad it's over so quick LOL

Ron: yes, that will be next step, figuring the KV and efficiency etc!

Learning a lot!
Steve

ron_van_sommeren
08-17-2009, 07:07 PM
Maybe post your results/pictures too on
http://www.rccanada.ca/rccforum/forumdisplay.php?f=103 ?

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

Hughes500e
08-18-2009, 08:31 AM
I do spend a fair amount of time there!
Glad to know you visit us! I may post something, definitely willing to share my experience!

CHELLIE
08-18-2009, 08:46 AM
I do spend a fair amount of time there!
Glad to know you visit us! I may post something, definitely willing to share my experience!

I Spend most of my time here, They cant get rid of me here on Wattflyers :D :D :D LOL Take care, Chellie

Hughes500e
09-11-2009, 02:30 AM
Interesting, I have finally mounted my motor to my aircraft. I have installed a larger ESC so I don't have to worry about damaging my 35 AMP, I installed the CC Thunderbird 54. Bench tests are interesting, I am now pulling way too many AMPs. I am actually extremely cautious due to smoke being visible LOL

11x5.5 APC I pulled back on the throttle at 540 Watts 52 Amps
12x6 APC motor changed tones 3 times I pulled back at 520 Watts (serious amount of pull, too scared to look at the AMPS)
10x5 XOAR I pulled back after I seen 600 watts on the meter.

Very interesting results since the XOAR prop should have pulled less Amps!

I do believe I may have to try 2 cells instead of the 3 cell paks!
I may have a very high KV motor!

Not sure where to go from here!????

Hughes500e
09-11-2009, 07:10 AM
I just had to show it off:roll:

It handled 640 Watts in front of the guys for about 12 seconds, the copper changed color and I now have a short LOL

I'm not sure I'll repair it but boy I have had some fun with this project!

CHELLIE
09-11-2009, 10:08 AM
Interesting, I have finally mounted my motor to my aircraft. I have installed a larger ESC so I don't have to worry about damaging my 35 AMP, I installed the CC Thunderbird 54. Bench tests are interesting, I am now pulling way too many AMPs. I am actually extremely cautious due to smoke being visible LOL

11x5.5 APC I pulled back on the throttle at 540 Watts 52 Amps
12x6 APC motor changed tones 3 times I pulled back at 520 Watts (serious amount of pull, too scared to look at the AMPS)
10x5 XOAR I pulled back after I seen 600 watts on the meter.

Very interesting results since the XOAR prop should have pulled less Amps!

I do believe I may have to try 2 cells instead of the 3 cell paks!
I may have a very high KV motor!

Not sure where to go from here!????

wind it again :D with a smaller diam wire, if you had a large dia wire, yes you had a high KV motor :D thats about my limit of understanding winding motors :Q test the motor after you wind it, so you will know what the KV is, a drill motor set at 1000rpm and a volt ohm meter is used, here is a KV calculator, maybe you might be able to determine what you kv on your motor was with that, Take Care, Chellie

http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/models/motor_info.htm

CHELLIE
09-11-2009, 11:03 AM
I just had to show it off:roll:

It handled 640 Watts in front of the guys for about 12 seconds, the copper changed color and I now have a short LOL

I'm not sure I'll repair it but boy I have had some fun with this project!

what size wire did you use 22g, and how many turns 10 ? and did you use a delta configuration, I bet you had close to a 2700KV motor :D :D :D

ron_van_sommeren
09-11-2009, 12:44 PM
... if you had a large dia wire, yes you had a high KV motor ...Wire gauge does not effect Kv Chellie. Only number of winds effects Kv. But always use thickest wire possible for a given/desired number of winds for better efficiency.

Prettig weekend ;) Ron

CHELLIE
09-11-2009, 04:12 PM
Wire gauge does not effect Kv Chellie. Only number of winds effects Kv. But always use thickest wire possible for a given/desired number of winds for better efficiency.

Prettig weekend ;) Ron

Thank you Ron, This is all very interesting, would the least amount of windings give a higher kv or the most amount of windings, I seem to remember reading that the least amount would give a higher kv, with in reason, one of these days i am going to rewind a motor, just to say, I did it :D I like that 10Kw motor that you posted, I saw how the builder cut out half the stator, i think is called that, and made a big thick winding, and drew 300amps, gee, that many amps would start your car :Q Take care, Chellie

kyleservicetech
09-11-2009, 06:12 PM
Thank you Ron, This is all very interesting, would the least amount of windings give a higher kv or the most amount of windings, I seem to remember reading that the least amount would give a higher kv, with in reason, one of these days i am going to rewind a motor, just to say, I did it :D I like that 10Kw motor that you posted, I saw how the builder cut out half the stator, i think is called that, and made a big thick winding, and drew 300amps, gee, that many amps would start your car :Q Take care, Chellie

One way to wind a motor is to buy a kit from www.gobrushless.com (http://www.gobrushless.com). They are fairly inexpensive, and you can learn a lot by actually winding one. And, since they provide all parts, you've got a good chance of success.

No, you won't save any money winding your own, it might cost more than a commercial motor. But if you like to do this sort of stuff, its one way to go.

As for starting your car, I've picked up one of those AC/DC clamp on Ammeters from Sears, their part number 82369. The current pulled by the starter on my old Chev S10 with 4 cylinder engine is around 125 Amps. At about 12 volts, that's around 1500 watts. So, any properly geared Hacker A50 L motor would start a lot of engines out there. (That old S10 is used only for transporting models back and forth to the field. It just won't quit running!)

CHELLIE
09-11-2009, 10:08 PM
One way to wind a motor is to buy a kit from www.gobrushless.com (http://www.gobrushless.com). They are fairly inexpensive, and you can learn a lot by actually winding one. And, since they provide all parts, you've got a good chance of success.

No, you won't save any money winding your own, it might cost more than a commercial motor. But if you like to do this sort of stuff, its one way to go.

As for starting your car, I've picked up one of those AC/DC clamp on Ammeters from Sears, their part number 82369. The current pulled by the starter on my old Chev S10 with 4 cylinder engine is around 125 Amps. At about 12 volts, that's around 1500 watts. So, any properly geared Hacker A50 L motor would start a lot of engines out there. (That old S10 is used only for transporting models back and forth to the field. It just won't quit running!)

Thank you for the Link, that will be a great training aid, I like trying different things, to see if i can do it or not, and i am very stubborn, i dont give up easy ::o;) LOL thats the way I learn to do things, might take me 4 or 5 tries but i will win :D the old chevys, fords and dodges were great, this new stuff they have, has a lot to be desired :silly: I still want a 1970 Cuda, I fell in love with that car, at the dealer, when i used to walk to school every day right by the dodge dealer back in 1970, let see that should make me about 29 years old now, yes thats right :p> Take care, Chellie

Rattlecat
09-13-2009, 02:28 PM
On the first page there was a question about stator shorts. Has anyone tried a few TIGHT turns of teflon pipe tape around the stator ? I'm sure it will work well but one problem is it could work loose if not glued together at the end.
It stretches very thin when pulled so the reason for as many turns as needed to do the job. I think I'll test some CA to glue the ends.

Rc

ron_van_sommeren
09-13-2009, 03:56 PM
Teflon tape flows under pressure. Kapton is much better. The sharp edges are the problem. Several insulation methods in first post of this 'diy brushless motor tips and tricks' thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993

Motor_rewinding_101
http://www.gobrushless.com
-> knowledge base
-> basic overview (1-5)

Tips and tricks, checks and tests, will keep you from frying yer ESC and/or controller:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35216

Gwest
10-09-2009, 05:17 PM
Is it possible / worth the effort to rewind an inrunner? I have a Himark / Himax motor that has overheated and melted the insulation on the windings. It also caused expensive white smoke to come out of the Esc. The magnets still seem OK. I got it cheap secondhand, with no way of knowing the specs. The kV sticker that identifies it, is missing.

1. How to open the motor? I don't see any screws holding the end caps - looks more like a press fit arrangement. Any help will be welcome.

2. How to remove stator? And put it back again after rewinding.

3. Winding scheme for inrunners?

I know, its easier to replace it, but I want to try this. If it doesn't work or I mess it up, nothing is lost.

flydiver
10-09-2009, 05:36 PM
If you have to ask, no.
WAY harder than an outrunner. WAY WAY harder.

ron_van_sommeren
10-09-2009, 08:52 PM
... Winding scheme for inrunners? ...Same as for outrunner with the same numbers of magnetpoles and statorpoles. Now, how do we figure out the number of magnetpoles in your motor ... Or do you know it already from the specs?

(Re)winding_101, a must read:
www.gobrushless.com
-> knowledge base
-> basic overview

Prettig weekend ;) Ron

Lieutenant Loughead
10-09-2009, 09:04 PM
You know... Pulso is givin away a free motor of your choice. I happen to know they have a direct match/replacement for the motor you are repairing... ;)

Just run a Google search on Pulso, and you'll find the deal.

firemanbill
10-09-2009, 09:10 PM
You know... Pulso is givin away a free motor of your choice. I happen to know they have a direct match/replacement for the motor you are repairing... ;)

Just run a Google search on Pulso, and you'll find the deal.

Good luck getting them to reply to your email... I have emailed them several times with no response.

kyleservicetech
10-09-2009, 09:21 PM
If you have to ask, no.
WAY harder than an outrunner. WAY WAY harder.

Agreed
Rewinding an outrunner is fairly easy, since the windings will stay put on the "inside" stator.

But an inrunner, you are winding the wire on the "outside" stator. Problem is, the windings have a tendency to fall off while winding them.

I once rewound an automotive alternator to put out 60 Volts DC at 5 Amperes for a gasoline engine/alternator peak charger for a model that used 38 RC2400 Nicad cells. Rewinding that alternator was not fun.:( (Still got it, still works, but Nicads or Nihyd cells have been made obsolete by the Lipos or the A123 cells that I personally use.)

Lieutenant Loughead
10-10-2009, 05:01 AM
Good luck getting them to reply to your email... I have emailed them several times with no response.Bill -- they responded to my e-mail in about 6 hours. I responded to their response, sent my Paypal payment, and supposedly the motor is in the mail about 24 hours after my initial e-mail.

firemanbill
10-10-2009, 05:22 AM
Bill -- they responded to my e-mail in about 6 hours. I responded to their response, sent my Paypal payment, and supposedly the motor is in the mail about 24 hours after my initial e-mail.

... and they completely ignored me.:confused:

Gwest
10-10-2009, 06:47 PM
To Ron

I do not know the number of poles. Will know as soon as I manage to open it. Which was question 1 and 2 - any help anyone?

Genotvolle naweek vir jou ook.

Gwest
10-10-2009, 07:06 PM
I measured and weighed the motor and it seems to be the HB 3615, either the 1600 or the 2100 kV version. The specs are not very helpfull. My multimeter is not good at measuring in the milliOhm range. (Cheapy, gotta get a good one!) If it was, I could use the specs to determine which one it is.

Gwest
10-11-2009, 09:51 AM
I managed to open the motor by making a puller tool from a center piece of a folding prop and two 3 mm bolts. It has 18 poles visible on its inner surface, with the windings going around more than one at a time. There is a point where the windings are connected together.

Looks quite complicated. The other problem is that the stator seems to be glued in position inside the can. :eek:

The shaft has 6 magnets.

ron_van_sommeren
10-11-2009, 12:14 PM
... My multimeter is not good at measuring in the milliOhm range ...DIY low-resistance meter:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580151

... There is a point where the windings are connected together ...That makes it official: delta termination.

How many wires are wound in parallel? Parallel winds count as one wind.

Windings span several statorpoles (3)?

Can you post (macro) pictures?


Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

Gwest
10-11-2009, 02:47 PM
Ron

Yes, the windings span 3 poles and overlap. The windings are 6 wires parallel. Took some pic's. You may be able to see the glue that sticks everything together. Any idea what type it is? Should I heat it (unlikely - it's supposed to handle high temp's. Maybe a solvent? I will experiment with laquer thinners, alcohol, etc.

ron_van_sommeren
10-11-2009, 03:17 PM
It's an overlapping 'wave' winding diagram. E.g. several Actro (http://www.actro.de) and all X-era (http://www.xeramotors.com) motors use that diagram too. It is a 6statorpole/8magnetpole motor, it's probably wound ABCABC. I'm not sure about this. All you can do is meticulously write down winding direction of each coil, and the beginnings and endings of each phase for future reference. It matters which beginning is connected to which beginner. Another option is to ask in the 'Electric Motor Design and Construction (http://www.rcgroups.com/electric-motor-design-and-construction-361/)' over at RCG and ask about 'overlapping wave' winding diagram.


These pictures (http://www.eschmidt.onlineelektro.de/scripts/show.aspx?content=/shop/home/leistung/motoren/drehstrom) will give you some idea for removing the coils. Heat stator (not magets!) in oven and pull the coils out. Clamp the stator on both sides to prevent laminations from bending outwards. Use e.g. www.google.com (http://www.google.com) -> "language tools" for automatic translation.

Actro via Aeronaut (http://www.aero-naut.net/index.php?id=287&L=1)
http://www.actro.de/bilder/gross/actro2b.jpg

Gwest
10-11-2009, 03:40 PM
Ron

Thanks a lot. I will remove the stator and keep careful notes.

I'm glad it is not the motor on the German site I have to rewind! I can read German, just need a dictionary here and there.

Are there any Dutch forums out there? Will have even less trouble reading them.

I like the milliohm circuit, will build me one.

Gerhard

ron_van_sommeren
10-12-2009, 12:37 PM
Netherlands
www.modelbouwforum.nl
www.rcpilotenforum.nl

SA
www.yahoogroups.com/group/sarfly

kyleservicetech
10-12-2009, 07:13 PM
Ron

Thanks a lot. I will remove the stator and keep careful notes.

I'm glad it is not the motor on the German site I have to rewind! I can read German, just need a dictionary here and there.

Are there any Dutch forums out there? Will have even less trouble reading them.

I like the milliohm circuit, will build me one.

Gerhard

You don't need such an elaborate setup to measure DC resistance of our motors. All you need is a two or three cell Lipo, or 12 volt battery, a power resistor on the order of five ohms, at 25 watts, and a pair of cheap digital volt meters. Heck, even a 12 Volt automotive tail light, or several tail lights in parallel will work, anything that draws an ampere or three.

Connect the battery such that current flows through the resistor, and the motor winding under test. (The motor and resistor are in series with each other.) Put one meter in SERIES with the resistor and motor, on the meters 10 Ampere DC range. (No you can't put the meter in series to measure the current, than take it out to measure the voltage. The meter itself on its 10 Ampere range has some resistance, and removing it will change the current through the motor under test.)

Measure the voltage ACROSS the motor windings with the first digital volt meter. Measure the current THROUGH the motor with the second digital meter.

Now, the motors DC resistance will equal the voltage measured across the motor, divided by the current through the motor or R=E/I. The attached JPG photo shows it all.

If you measure 0.072 volts across the motor, and 2.5 Amps through the motor, the motor resistance is R=E/I or 0.071/2.5 which is 0.0288 ohms. Be certain to measure the motor voltage directly across the motor leads, and not across your clip wires to the motor. Measuring on the clip wires will add the clip's resistance to your total motor resistance.


(DO NOT CONNECT THE BATTERY DIRECTLY ACROSS THE MOTOR, THAT WILL BURN IT UP! :censor:)

Once you have this set up, it takes more time to read this instruction than to actually do the resistance measurement.:tc:

In the USA, you can buy a perfectly decent meter such as the Cen-Tech model 92020 for about $3.98 in American dollars. If you need more accuracy, more expensive meters can be used, such as the Fluke 87V, but mine cost some $350 USA dollars. It is accurate to 0.05% though.:D And a pair of Fluke 87V meters will give you far more accuracy than you need.

Gwest
10-12-2009, 09:47 PM
Ron

I tried heating the motor (without magnets!) in the oven, but the stator still won't move. Tried soaking it overnight in thinners, turpentine, but still no luck. Will keep on trying, but I think it's not worth the effort.

To kyleservicetech:

your idea looks simple, but I prefer the other one. I may even build in a meter to make it a standalone unit. Then I don't need to do the maths!

kyleservicetech
10-12-2009, 09:51 PM
Ron

I tried heating the motor (without magnets!) in the oven, but the stator still won't move. Tried soaking it overnight in thinners, turpentine, but still no luck. Will keep on trying, but I think it's not worth the effort.

To kyleservicetech:

your idea looks simple, but I prefer the other one. I may even build in a meter to make it a standalone unit. Then I don't need to do the maths!

No problem here, but you must make it a "four wire" setup, where two wires connect the current source to the motor, and two more wires measure the voltage drop across the motor wires.

I've used many multithousand dollar micro-ohmmeters before retiring, and that is how these units were used.

I decided to make this into a "Posting" per below: (That four wire setup is covered here)
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50740

Have a good day!

ron_van_sommeren
10-13-2009, 11:04 AM
... I tried heating the motor (without magnets!) in the oven, but the stator still won't move ...The heating was intended for softening the glue in/on the coils.

Gwest
10-14-2009, 07:34 AM
The heating was intended for softening the glue in/on the coils.

That's what I meant - heating did not soften the glue.

kik
10-14-2009, 01:04 PM
Wow what a load of gobbledegook for the sake of a few bucks, I am an ex TV/VCR technician have rewound many things in my day including the yoke for a TV screen, but i would never bother with all this time consuming trouble for the sake of a few bucks, sure the n00b's might learn a thing or two, but it wont have people saving money by repairing their own appliances. I have my entire apprenticeship paper work still here somewhere plus modules for when CD players came to life, I have it all from valve sets to hybrids to solid state, gimme a holler if you want them, I'm outts the game, been out for years, just pay the postage and it's all yours, a lot to learn in there.

You can also have all my motor mechanic papers, outta that game too, I'm a Horologist now, need a pro to teach that stuff as there is no appreticeship for it.

Sorry if I come across a bit brash, but I just don't see the point, there's nothing to be gained in the long run, except maybe knowing a little about using a OHM's meter.

Terry.

ron_van_sommeren
10-14-2009, 01:52 PM
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby

Food for thought :)
Who builds your planes?
Who are responsible for popularity of outrunners?

Rewinding a stock motor will give higher efficiency and higher power/weight ratio.

I can see you don't care much, because it is/was your profession (e.g.I don't like software/hardware engineering as a hobby) but if I posted in every thread that does not interest me, this (any) forum would run out of disk space soon ;) :D

Vriendelijke groeter ;) Ron

kik
10-14-2009, 02:10 PM
I used to build my own, too expensive now with foamies.
The popularity of out runners is the consumer.
And I didn't say the post was not interesting, just that in my opinion people are wasting their time rewinding something worth only a few bucks, when electronics can be far better used in home appliance repair rather trying to save $10.00 on a motor.

My opinion is just that...........mine, and to me this makes no sense, learn how to read whether a magnatron is working, how to tell the difference between PnP or NpN transistors measure caps, work circuits, anything but motor winding that takes time with little reward.

When you consider the average technician earns around $150.00 ph think of how much you can save by learning how to repair your valuable TV, DVD player, Dishwasher washing machine, or simply re-wiring your home, that's the point I was making, it wasn't an attack on anyone, just my unwanted and unwarranted opinion.

Maybe the next time I want to give a little helping hint to someone I will just keep it to myself rather then being attacked by people like you.

kik
10-14-2009, 02:23 PM
Here's one for you Mr. Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism#Constructive_criticism

ron_van_sommeren
10-14-2009, 02:33 PM
... The popularity of out runners is the consumer ...And was started, made possible by the diy brushless motor community, first in Germany, later worldwide.

C'mon, 'attack', the questions were rethorically, no attack intended there. Apologies if it came across that way. Let's say I intended my post to be a bit brash.

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

kik
10-14-2009, 02:50 PM
And was started, made possible by the diy brushless motor community, first in Germany, later worldwide.Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron



A brushless motor includes a rotor having 2n magnetic poles and a stator having 3n slots, the magnetic poles of the rotor are composed of segment magnets arranged in three columns extending in an axial direction. The magnets of each column are displaced from the magnet of either adjacent column in a circumferential direction, forming a 3-stage step-skew structure. The segment magnets have a skew angle θskew ranging from 36 to 57 in terms of electrical angle.
Inventor.Masayuki OKUBO


Alexandia, Va., Sept. 9 -- Yoaka Hayashi of Kariya, Japan, has developed a brushless motor control apparatus with overheat protecting function.
According to the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office: "A brushless motor control apparatus detects a phase current flowing in a brushless motor, converts the phase current to a vector current including a d-axis current of a magnetic flux direction component and a q-axis current of a torque direction component orthogonal to the d-axis current, calculates a vector voltage instruction value based on differences between a vector current and a vector current instruction value, calculates a phase voltage instruction value and controls rotation of the stator.

kyleservicetech
10-14-2009, 05:44 PM
I used to build my own, too expensive now with foamies.
The popularity of out runners is the consumer.
And I didn't say the post was not interesting, just that in my opinion people are wasting their time rewinding something worth only a few bucks, when electronics can be far better used in home appliance repair rather trying to save $10.00 on a motor.

My opinion is just that...........mine, and to me this makes no sense, learn how to read whether a magnatron is working, how to tell the difference between PnP or NpN transistors measure caps, work circuits, anything but motor winding that takes time with little reward.

When you consider the average technician earns around $150.00 ph think of how much you can save by learning how to repair your valuable TV, DVD player, Dishwasher washing machine, or simply re-wiring your home, that's the point I was making, it wasn't an attack on anyone, just my unwanted and unwarranted opinion.

Maybe the next time I want to give a little helping hint to someone I will just keep it to myself rather then being attacked by people like you.

Some of us enjoy building models, even though the ARF's are probably cheaper. Some of us enjoy building electronic projects, even though commercial units are probably cheaper. Some of enjoy "Fixing things", even though buying new is probably cheaper.

As for me, I enjoy designing and building electronic projects, including microcontroller based circuits, even though they probably cost more than commercial. But, that gives me the ability to get exactly what I want, rather than settling for whats available on the market. Many of my electronic projects are directly involved in my electric model airplanes. One of them was an accelerometer that showed one of my models hit 9.5 g's during a flight. And that accelerometer cost me about five dollars, plus a LOT of stuff from my electronic junk pile. (Plus about 15 hours writing the program for that Microchip Picchip.)

That's what makes this hobby so interesting, reading other peoples interests, and skills, and learning from all of them! Now, I've been flying models that use the A123 cells, weigh in at 6 to 8 pounds, and are very acrobatic. And guys like you are flying those foamies. And, I'm going to get me a foamie for next year and join in on the foamie fun!

kik
10-14-2009, 05:49 PM
What you do is entirely different from the discussion, I too build my own stuff, but that's only because it's better then what you can buy, probably the same reason you do it.

Not to mention it is fun to do, it's hardly a motor though is it?. I can see the enjoyment of doing it once, learning is learning simple as that, my point is do something worthwhile not dabble in futility.

Terry.

kyleservicetech
10-14-2009, 06:04 PM
What you do is entirely different from the discussion, I too build my own stuff, but that's only because it's better then what you can buy, probably the same reason you do it.

Not to mention it is fun to do, it's hardly a motor though is it?. I can see the enjoyment of doing it once, learning is learning simple as that, my point is do something worthwhile not dabble in futility.

Terry.

Back in the 1980's I rebuilt and rewound a number of brush type motors for use in my 10 foot sailplanes. They worked OK, and I got more than a few flights out of them. Then Astroflight started selling far better motors than I could ever build.

Then "Gobrushless" on the Internet sold brushless motor kits, bought six of them and wound them up, and flew them. They worked, and worked very well, and had more power than similar commercial units.

And, I got over 170 Watts out of them while still running at a reasonable temperature rise. Still have them, might put one of them into one of those foamies next year.

My models now all use various Hacker motors of the A40 and A50 class, and they perform better than anything I can ever build. When one of my models had an uncommanded snap roll, 50 feet off the ground, one of my Hacker motors got bent up. Took it apart, ordered new bearings and a new shaft, straightened out the prop mount, and put it back together for a cost of $16.00. Still flying that motor.

It's all part of the learning process for this hobby.

Gwest
10-15-2009, 05:41 PM
Wow what a load of gobbledegook for the sake of a few bucks

Terry.

I really don't care about the few bucks. In fact, I have already replaced the motor in question. I fully agree that sometimes it's not worth repairing stuff. But I tried this as a matter of interest, a learning experience. My field of work is something totally different but I have always enjoyed electronics, even programming PIC's.

Gerhard