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View Full Version : Help HV85 and Hacker A60-24s squealing problem


999flyer
09-20-2009, 11:28 PM
I have a Phoenix HV85 ESC and am trying to get it to work with a Hacker A60-24s outrunner.
Everything is fine up to about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle and then the motor squeals and kicks and produces no further increase in power. Below 1/2 throttle the motor works perfectly.
I have purchased a Castle link programmer and tried various timing permutations but nothing seems to make any difference.
What settings should I be using for this outrunner? I have upgraded the firmware from (I think it was) v1.55 to the latest v2.16 beta but this made no difference either.
I am running it on a TP 10s 5000mah LiPo and using a APC-E 20x11. My tx is a Futaba 12z and throttle channel is reversed with 100% travel.
I have heard rumours that hacker outrunners and CC esc's have compatibility issues, is this true?
I have also read a few forums where new revisions of firmware have caused this problem for others but I can't find a solution to my problem.

Larry3215
09-21-2009, 05:28 AM
Your probably over propped to some degree. That seems to be the issue.

There is a new version of the link software due out very soon that should fix your problem.

In the mean time, have you donwloaded the latest version of the software?

The current beta should help and may even fix the problem.

Try the "outrunner mode" setting in the PWM section. Also set your timing to low and Id set throttle response to a slightly lower setting as well.

Castle thinks they have a fix and are just putting the finishing touches on the final version.

Larry3215
09-21-2009, 05:31 AM
By the way - be SURE to recheck your amp draw numbers after installing the new software on your controller and making the changes.

The new version allows motors to keep working well beyond where they used to be able to run.

The result is that your motor may run perfectly with the new software but be pulling far more amps than it was designed to pull. The result could be a perfectly smooth running motor that burns up in no time :)

999flyer
09-21-2009, 11:56 PM
Thanks for the reply Larry.
I have used Castlelink version 3.161 which I believe is the most up to date version, current esc firmware is v2.16(beta) which I believe is also the latest version as of yesterday.
I have used the "outrunner mode" setting in the PWM section. Also set the timing to low and set the throttle response to a low setting. It didn't make any difference.
I double checked my prop size this evening and to my surprise found it to be an APC-E 20x12W and not the 20x11 I thought it was. However, although even pitchier, this is within the prop range that both Hacker and Sebart (it's fitted in a Sebart Funtana 140s) recommend with a Hacker/Jeti Spin 99 ESC.
I haven't checked the amp draw yet. What makes you think the prop is oversized and what size prop do you think is correct for this setup.
When is the new software available and how will I know when it's available?
Once again, thanks for your help Larry.

Larry3215
09-22-2009, 03:17 AM
The "over propped" comment I made was in reference to some comments by Patrick del Castillo that the reason guys were having this issue with the Hacker was that that prop was pushing the motor into iron saturation and that was causing the esc to loose sync. So, per Patrick the motor is over propped. Its being run well beyond its peak efficiency range.

The problem seems to be that the new software allows the motor to run/draw even more amps than before and thats pushing it over the edge and causing the loss of timing.

After Patrick said that he got mostly howls of complaint instead of understanding - as you can imagine :)

So... they have a newer version of the software coming out soon that will allow you to run the motor in that power range - no matter if its way in-efficient or not :)

My warning about over powering the motor still stands. Guys have burned up motors (that were doing ok before the upgrade) after installing the new software. The new software allows the motor to draw more amps (in some cases a LOT more amps) and continue to run at power levels that would have been - and were - limited by the earlier software.

The motor will run more efficiently within its range but you can now push the motor a lot harder than before. With this new software its a matter of the motor giving up before the esc gives up. It used to be the esc would give up first and limit the current the motor could draw or it would loose sync.

So - re-check amp draw after the up-grade.

999flyer
09-22-2009, 06:02 PM
Big thanks for your reply and advice once again Larry.
I've got a much better understanding of the problem now;)
How do I work out what the correct and most efficient prop size is?
The Hacker info says the max amps is 50 for this motor, is this the figure I should be aiming for at full throttle for best efficiency, max power and prolonged motor life when choosing my prop size?
Why are the prop sizes Hacker quote pulling too many amps? I thought Hacker were always very conservative in their recommendations:<:

I have had a reply from Joe Ford at CC which is also very helpful and I look forward to the release of the new software:

"Use low advance timing and 8/12KHz switch rate. We are tweaking our new outrunner mode right now (takes care of most squealing)...we've got it MUCH better now...to the point where we can't get any motor to squeal regardless of how hard the motor is being pushed. Hacker, Scorpion, etc...you can get them all to squeal right now if you try...not after this update. :) Software should be out very soon...just finishing it up."

Larry3215
09-23-2009, 05:36 AM
Big thanks for your reply and advice once again Larry.
I've got a much better understanding of the problem now;)
How do I work out what the correct and most efficient prop size is?
The Hacker info says the max amps is 50 for this motor, is this the figure I should be aiming for at full throttle for best efficiency, max power and prolonged motor life when choosing my prop size?
Why are the prop sizes Hacker quote pulling too many amps? I thought Hacker were always very conservative in their recommendations:<:

I have had a reply from Joe Ford at CC which is also very helpful and I look forward to the release of the new software:

"Use low advance timing and 8/12KHz switch rate. We are tweaking our new outrunner mode right now (takes care of most squealing)...we've got it MUCH better now...to the point where we can't get any motor to squeal regardless of how hard the motor is being pushed. Hacker, Scorpion, etc...you can get them all to squeal right now if you try...not after this update. :) Software should be out very soon...just finishing it up."

Most of us fly our motors well beyond the max efficiency point. The peak amp rating is how many amps you can push through the motor before it starts to melt down into slag :) The peak efficiency amp number will be waaaay below that number.


http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motorDetails.aspx?series=A60

On that Hacker USA site its showing operating amps as 40 amps and peak at 90 amps. Im guessing peak efficiency is probably around 30 amps. Most guys are probably runing this motor at peaks in the 80 amps range - which is well beyond max efficiency.

That motor may be about 85% efficient at 30 amps lets say. At the 40 amps recomended level its probably down to 80%. At 90 amps its probably down in the 60%-70% range.

So if your running at 10S and 40 amps thats roughly 1500 watts. At 80% efficiency thats 1200 watts to the prop and 300 going into heat.

Jump up to 90 amps and lets say its still 70% efficient at a wild guess.

Thats about 3300 watts x .7 = 2300 watts to the prop but its 1000 watts of heat!!!!!

So you are pumping and extra 1800 watts into the motor but only getting about 800 out of that 1800 as usefull work. The rest is going into heating the motor. More than half of the extra power is going into heating the motor instead of spinning the prop.

Anyway, like I said most of us do it that way even though its stupid and in-efficient :) Its a lot smarter to use a larger motor with a higher peak efficiency power level. You can actually use smaller packs and get just as much power to the prop with less heat.

Larry3215
09-23-2009, 05:40 AM
Thanks for the reply Larry.
I have used Castlelink version 3.161 which I believe is the most up to date version, current esc firmware is v2.16(beta) which I believe is also the lat.............
I haven't checked the amp draw yet. What makes you think the prop is oversized and what size prop do you think is correct for this setup.
When is the new software available and how will I know when it's available?
Once again, thanks for your help Larry.

Forgot to answer this - just start the phoenix link software program while your connected to the internet. Then click on the "Update" tab. It will check to see if there are any up-dates. I have mine set to automatically check for up-dates every time it starts.

999flyer
09-24-2009, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the info once again Larry, much appreciated.

By the way, what was the link supposed to take me to in your last but one post? It seems to be broken for me.

Most of us fly our motors well beyond the max efficiency point. The peak amp rating is how many amps you can push through the motor before it starts to melt down into slag :) The peak efficiency amp number will be waaaay below that number.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=645019 (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=645019)

On that Hacker USA site its showing operating amps as 40 amps and peak at 90 amps. Im guessing peak efficiency is probably around 30 amps. Most guys are probably runing this motor at peaks in the 80 amps range - which is well beyond max efficiency.

That motor may be about 85% efficient at 30 amps lets say. At the 40 amps recomended level its probably down to 80%. At 90 amps its probably down in the 60%-70% range.

So if your running at 10S and 40 amps thats roughly 1500 watts. At 80% efficiency thats 1200 watts to the prop and 300 going into heat.

Jump up to 90 amps and lets say its still 70% efficient at a wild guess.

Thats about 3300 watts x .7 = 2300 watts to the prop but its 1000 watts of heat!!!!!

So you are pumping and extra 1800 watts into the motor but only getting about 800 out of that 1800 as usefull work. The rest is going into heating the motor. More than half of the extra power is going into heating the motor instead of spinning the prop.

Anyway, like I said most of us do it that way even though its stupid and in-efficient :) Its a lot smarter to use a larger motor with a higher peak efficiency power level. You can actually use smaller packs and get just as much power to the prop with less heat.

Larry3215
09-24-2009, 08:50 PM
Oops! I posted the wrong link!

http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motorDetails.aspx?series=A60

That should be the link to the Hacker USA site. Its showing slightly different numbers from those you mentioned.

999flyer
09-24-2009, 11:17 PM
Seems there are different max amp numbers wherever you look, which is correct?

http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4418

http://www.hacker-motor.com/images/Catalog09/Hacker-2009-WEB%2018+19+20.pdf

Larry3215
09-24-2009, 11:42 PM
LOL

Thats a good question. Both of those links have different numbers on power/amps than the Hacker USA site so I have no clue!

The Hacker PDF is even confusing all by itself. In one place it says max power 1900 watts for 15 seconds, but then it shows the recomended prop drawing over 2100 watts.

999flyer
09-25-2009, 09:59 PM
LOL

Thats a good question. Both of those links have different numbers on power/amps than the Hacker USA site so I have no clue!

The Hacker PDF is even confusing all by itself. In one place it says max power 1900 watts for 15 seconds, but then it shows the recomended prop drawing over 2100 watts.

Mmmmnnnn, the only thing that's consistent is the recommended prop size. But you reckon that is oversized........
Now I'm totally confused, LOL. How do I check the draw on the motor and ascertain the correct props size from all the variable info available if I don't know what amps I should be aiming for???
Maybe I'll stick with this prop for now as I know others are having success with it (using Hacker/Jeti Spin 99 ESC's), wait for the imminent CC firmware update and set to low advance timing and 8/12KHz switch rate (as Joe Fords recommendations)......... oh, nearly forgot, and keep the fingers crossed ;):ws:
If it stops squealing and produces full power after this, I'll be a happy bunny and may then experiment with different props to improve efficiency and longevity of the motor.

Fast Guy
10-19-2009, 11:28 PM
Having the same problem with an HV 110(v1.56) and Axi 5345-14. It has nothing to do with the amp draw (over proping) as Castle is finding out. My system squeels the worst at 1/2 throttle with no prop. It also seems that Hacker motors are way under rated and most report they can do double the rated amps with no heat build up or ill effects. The software has been updated so many times promising to stop the squeeling and it hasn't that many are giving up. Newest software due out anytime. Many have reported that firmware v1.55 had no squeeling problems. Too bad Castle didn't write the software so you could go back but only Castle can do it at the factory.

999flyer
10-20-2009, 07:15 PM
After a long wait, I finally got excited last week when I saw the long awaited software update which I have been waiting for to solve my squealing issue.
I updated the HV85 to the new 2.18 beta firmware and altered the settings to low timing and outrunner mode as recommende by Joe Ford of CC, sadly, it has made no difference at all. I'm still getting the squealing above 1/2 throttle and it doesn't reach full power just the same as before.
I have also tried an APCE 20x10 just to make sure it wasn't previously overpropped, this also made no difference at all.
I e-mailed Joe again at CC and got this reply: I'm finding out from the engineering department that they are not entirely satisfied with the last revision of the firmware and are continuing to work on it right now. I'll try to get an estimate of when to expect a revision.
Now totally p***ed off with the CC esc, I have decided to give up and replace it.
I got the chance of a secondhand Jeti/Hacker 99 Spin yesterday and bought it. Guess what, the Hacker esc did the trick, no squealing and a smotth accelaration from zero throttle to full power. I'm now wondering why I didn't pay the extra in the first place and buy a Hacker esc, would have saved me money in the long run and a lot of time and hassle. I won't be buying a CC esc again!!!

Fast Guy
10-20-2009, 11:29 PM
The latest software was to be released last Friday but no show. Maybe this time Castle has found the problem with their firmware or atleast rewrote it so you could go back. It's the end of the season here so I will wait and see if they can get it sorted out. I have had great success with Hyperion batteries so I may give their high voltage ESC a go if this doesn't pan out.

MV99
02-01-2010, 05:34 AM
After a long wait, I finally got excited last week when I saw the long awaited software update which I have been waiting for to solve my squealing issue.
I updated the HV85 to the new 2.18 beta firmware and altered the settings to low timing and outrunner mode as recommende by Joe Ford of CC, sadly, it has made no difference at all. I'm still getting the squealing above 1/2 throttle and it doesn't reach full power just the same as before.
I have also tried an APCE 20x10 just to make sure it wasn't previously overpropped, this also made no difference at all.
I e-mailed Joe again at CC and got this reply: I'm finding out from the engineering department that they are not entirely satisfied with the last revision of the firmware and are continuing to work on it right now. I'll try to get an estimate of when to expect a revision.
Now totally p***ed off with the CC esc, I have decided to give up and replace it.
I got the chance of a secondhand Jeti/Hacker 99 Spin yesterday and bought it. Guess what, the Hacker esc did the trick, no squealing and a smotth accelaration from zero throttle to full power. I'm now wondering why I didn't pay the extra in the first place and buy a Hacker esc, would have saved me money in the long run and a lot of time and hassle. I won't be buying a CC esc again!!!

I totally understand your frustration. I have a Sebart plane too........Sukhoi 29S 140E.........it is very similar with your plane.

I use Plettenberg 30-10 EVO with CC HV-110. The prop is Mejzlik 22x12W (6000 RPM with 3150 Watts when using 35C Hyperion 5000mah). The power is perfect for the plane and I did experience the squealing problem for a while.

My solution came from a good friend from Pattern group in our field. The key is that firmware has to be 2.0 or earlier. 2.16 works marginal and 3.0 does not work since it only reaches around 2100 watts and could not go any further.

The other key is the setup. Timing has to be set at low and frequency can not be "outrunner mode"......needs to be 8kz.

There are quite a few E-pattern pilots using CC HV-85 with Pletternburg at our field. They all set it this way and most of them use 20C TP prolite.

I have couple sets of TP 20C 5300mah pro-lite......when use 20C battery (little lower wattage @ 2900 Watts) I can aggressively do the throttle management in both pattern and 3D flying. When using 35C battery, 95% 3D is ok. The only time the squealing sound happens when I let plane tail slide during hover and suddenly push full throttle which creates lots of loading on motor.

I don't see any squealing problem among all pattern plane with CC HV-85 using this setup. None of them use 2.16 or newer firmware. The only pilot uses 2.16 experienced occasional squealing issue and he immediately sold the ECS and bought a new HV-85 because you can not rollback from 2.16 to 2.0 or older firmware. The only way is send back to CC and they can do it for you.

I certainly hope CC can come up with complete solution for this soon. I am afraid that there are quite a few CC fans start losing patience already.

Larry3215
02-01-2010, 06:34 AM
Have you tried the newest version? 3.2 firmware seems to have fixed most of the problems. They found a bug in the timing routines that caused problems at certain rpms.

There seem to be very few problems with this latest version. Its working great for me on all my setups.

MV99
02-01-2010, 06:45 AM
Have you tried the newest version? 3.2 firmware seems to have fixed most of the problems. They found a bug in the timing routines that caused problems at certain rpms.

There seem to be very few problems with this latest version. Its working great for me on all my setups.

Larry......Thanks a lot for the suggestion. I have not yet tried 3.22. I do have another HV-110 with 2.16 firmware that I previous flew with marginal result in regard of squealing problem. I can upgrade it to 3.22 right away.

The HV-110 in my plane is with 2.0 firmware and I will find time later next week to put the spare HV-110 in after I upgrade it to 3.22.

Hope I will see good result as you did......:)

Larry3215
02-01-2010, 07:15 AM
Good luck and let us know :)

Joe Ford
03-04-2010, 03:30 AM
Realize it's a bit old, but thought I'd post it. Anyone having any motor squealing issues please download the latest version of software from our website (currently v3.251). Then download the latest software onto the controller (currently v3.20). We've had nothing but positive feedback from customers with this software. For outrunner motors use low advance timing, and outrunner mode for the PWM rate. If you notice anything "off" when accelerating quickly to full throttle, throughout the throttle band, etc, try switching to 8KHz. You should be set after that. If not please be sure to let us know. support@castlecreations.com