Old Timers ya say? I gots a couple right here! :)

[Twmaster]

Ok, I am a sucker for old and odd stuff. Today I just got back from a road trip to get a pair of Old Timer birds. Both of these came from an estate in central Virginia and need some serious help.

First up, A 70" spam Brooklyn Dodger with an old Leisure 05 and gear drive in it. Has loads of hangar rash. It's heavy too. Haven't weighed her yet.

First 3 pics are the Dodger. The tail is kinda curious in that it only has one elevator control surface on the left side of the thing. Overall she's in good shape with basically only needing to be recovered, lightened up a hair and get modern radio and power plant.

Next, not exactly sure what she is. Some sort of Lanzo creation. Looks like it might be an RC-1. But I am not sure. Has a span of 84" and is in need of serious reworking. I just love the looks of this old girl and had to be sure she got a new home (mine mine mine!) :)

Update: The Lanzo is a 1939 design called the 'Recod Breaker'. See here: http://www.theplanpage.com/Months/2107/lrb.htm Also the Dodger is not. It's a Buzzard Bombshell!

So if you guys can tell me with some certainty what she is I would be grateful.

Anyhoo, the first three photos are the Dodger the rest are the Lanzo.

http://www.twmaster.com/oldie/dgr1.jpg

http://www.twmaster.com/oldie/dgr2.jpg

http://www.twmaster.com/oldie/dgr3.jpg

http://www.twmaster.com/oldie/lnz1.jpg

http://www.twmaster.com/oldie/lnz2.jpg

http://www.twmaster.com/oldie/lnz3.jpg

[Twmaster]

Anybody have any clue what the original color scheme was on the Lanzo Breaker?

[Sky Sharkster]

Hi Mike, sorry I didn't answer sooner. Those look like a couple of pretty nice O/T's, but might need some upgrades. That 1/2 elevator is sure to cause some lateral trim problems, I'd make it full span. Are you going to re-cover them? Looks like MonoKote to me, which is heavy, even the transparent. With the strength of those structures I'd say you could use a "Microlite", or UltraKote Light or the new Sig covering, think it's called AeroCote. The model with the un-covered tail still has the Free Flight stab rest and rubber hold-downs for dethermalizer, guess it's a later conversion. Bet if you have the ambition to put them on a sandpaper diet and smaller (lighter) R/C gear they'll be good flyers.
Good Luck!
Ron

[Twmaster]

No worry Ron. First a correction. I have been informed that the first plane is a Buzzard Bombshell! Doh! Anyhoo, she weighs only 28 ounces without motor/radio etc. And yes I have to agree. Full span elevator is a must. The Lanzo is only 6 pounds as is. So for a bird with a wingspan of 8 feet and 1206 sq in it should still be a floater!

I'm likely going to power the Buzzard with about 250W of power and the Lanzo with a bigger outrunner. Not sure which one yet. The original flew with a .60 motor.

Yup I saw the dethermalizer stuff there. :)

Sexy old plane. I wish I could find out when each was built. They appear to have come from an estate sale. The gentleman that had them was a member of one club for nearly 30 years!

[forresterace]

Hi Mike

As far as half-span elevators is concerned - they work just fine as far as I'm concerned.

Back in the mid 80's I flew an electric conversion of a 112" span Mirage glider. It used a semi-span elevator - flew great.

Pappy De Bolt redesigned his original Airfoiler OT design for RC and used just a half span elevator. Great flier (I'm a big DeBolt fan - have built several of his designs)

[Twmaster]

Hi Doug,

Hmmm.... Maybe I'll leave it alone. :D

[regibbs]

Hi Doug,

Hmmm.... Maybe I'll leave it alone. :D

Shouldn't be a problem Mike. Most of the OT electrics I have built during the past 15 years had half span elevators and flew just fine. Just finished a 7' Taibi Powerhouse with elevator on left side only and have a 48" Cleveland Viking on the building board now which will also use a half span elevator. I doubt it makes any difference which side carries the elevator - I have always connected rudder on the right side and elevator on the left as standard.

All good luck,

Dick Gibbs

[Twmaster]

Thanks Dick! I really need to get my butt in gear and start re-covering the Buzzard. It's just begging to be flown!

Heck, I might even just power it with an old car motor and belt drive!

:D

[regibbs]

Go for it Mike! Will probably fly like a real OT of that era with as little as 250 watts input.

Dick Gibbs

[Twmaster]

Well I've begun work on the Buzzard. The covering has been removed from the wing after much heartburn and a few foul words. The wing needs a bunch of work to replace bad/busted/poorly repaired wood.

I'm going to power her with an E-Flite Power 15 outrunner and a 4S1P 2100 Lipo. Although I am halfway considering digging out an Astro 05 Cobalt motor and an Olympic belt drive unit I have stashed away! ;)

Still trying to decide on how to cover, more specifically what colors to cover with. I have a bunch of covering to pic from here including some transparent stuff.

I've also decided to leave the half span elevator as-is.

The weekend is going to be ugly weather-wise thanks to Ernesto so I hope I can get good progress done with her!

The Lanzo is going to be a winter project. Still trying to find her original Chet Lanzo color scheme as well as how I am going to power her.

:)

[Cecil M Wethy]

Mike, look up Antique Modelers Library, They have all of Chet's plans
as he left them to the Society. They may know something about his
colors or may have a picture [ although most pictures then were
B&W] Cecil

[Twmaster]

Thanks for the tip Cecil. Also, welcome to WattFlyer, it's nice to see you over here also.

I have a set of plans bought from Uncle Willie. I'll be using them to rebuild the wire wing supports. I'll go poke around the Antique Modelers Library to see if I can find some data on color scheme. I have seen some photos (B&W) of the Record Breaker but no clues imparted on colors.

[Leadchucker]

I know this thread is a bit old,but I just stumbled on it. I have built 4 LRB's over the years and it was my contest plane in FF O/T for 30 Second Antique, Fuel Allotment and Texaco. All four had a O&R .60 on them for power,both in FF and R/C Assist.I never thought about the original colors and could have asked Chet Lanzo when I met him at the 1975 SAM Champs at the awards dinner.

In case you haven't already found out, the plane is a great flyer. It won't win any awards for climbing out,but more than makes up for it in it's abilty to stick itself to the sky in the glide. She's a big aircraft with a 96" span and 14" chord using the Grant X-10 airfoil which gives her a stately speed. And the lifting horizontal stabilizer helps as it has more area of lifting surface than many small plane coming in at around 600 square inches.

Here's a couple pictures at the 1975 SAM Nats in Aurora,CO.scanned from the December 1975 R/C Modeler. She won a first place in 30 Antique (FF) and a third in Fuel Allotment (FF) for me. Evidently the photographer from RCM that covered the event had a fasination with the LRB as he took a lot of pictures of her.

Sorry the pictures didn't scan the best and excuse me if not being an e-powered plane is a bit off track.

[Don Sims]

Very cool photos WL. Even though she's not an lectric she's a beautiful old timer.

[50+AirYears]

Frankly, I've built Old Timers with both half-span and full span elevators, and didn't see any difference. The moments on these OTs are such that a half span Elevator has plenty of authority for the way these are usually flown. Most are flown with limited engine runs for duration, and the elevtor is more for trim. OTs are usually too lightly built for much in the way of aerobatics.

[TLyttle]

Besides, it just looks wrong...

[gittarpikk]

Frankly, I've built Old Timers with both half-span and full span elevators, and didn't see any difference. The moments on these OTs are such that a half span Elevator has plenty of authority for the way these are usually flown. Most are flown with limited engine runs for duration, and the elevtor is more for trim. OTs are usually too lightly built for much in the way of aerobatics.


Just wanted to stick my .02 cents in... Yes, I agree about the trim thought... It is accurate. Actually the OT FF models were built to fly them selves...100% totally and the R/C added feature was more of a "herd it around the sky" option or "save-it-from-that-plane-eatin'-tree" option . The rudders and elevators were minimal and if it was in fact half span, it was only because it was such a waste to actuate just a little tab...so we hinge a half elevator.

Some FF were of the VTO type witha racing .15 like the old Torpedos ...and boy , those are fast. Akin to a rocket launch for 5-15 seconds to nearly OOS ( and old Free Flight term called Out-Of-Sight). Dethermalizer fuses were installed so one could hopefully watch their plane traverse from one thermal to another and finally (say in 5-15 minutes) kick the stab up at 45 degrees, going into full "mush" mode and slowly decending from that last wild thermal maybe somewhere near the field you launched her from ...and... (big AND here!).. maybe , luckily, not in the top of a tall Pine.

Yeah, :::fond memories abound:::: Those were the days...and THAT experience is what is an attempt to recapture with a plane that is only "electronically trimmable"

[50+AirYears]

I was flying at a local SAM chapter RC contest some years ago, and talking with one of the older FF pilots. He had a very interesting complaint. When he used to fly some of these designs as pure free flight, it was very easy to get maxes and even loose the plane to an OOS (out of site) flight. Since installing RC, it is a lot easier to get the planes back from a flight, but a lot harder to Max Out. It was like the plane had a better pilot in it than when the pilot was on the ground.

[gittarpikk]

I was flying at a local SAM chapter RC contest some years ago, and talking with one of the older FF pilots. He had a very interesting complaint. When he used to fly some of these designs as pure free flight, it was very easy to get maxes and even loose the plane to an OOS (out of site) flight. Since installing RC, it is a lot easier to get the planes back from a flight, but a lot harder to Max Out. It was like the plane had a better pilot in it than when the pilot was on the ground.


Not to count the additional few OZ s the radio costs... makes a huge difference in FF. I had to learn how to build light back in the 60's. Man, just think what could have been done with todays light , high strength materials....:D