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Capt. Midnight
02-16-2010, 05:21 AM
Hi B-47 Modelers!

Flight Metal's 1/10th-scale B-47 looks like it is going to be a fantastic model - much beyond my capabilities, for sure.

However, as an ex-Boeing employee, and former SAC (B-52 squadron) pilot, I thought there might be some interest in a slightly smaller version of this aircraft, and one with 6 fans, as in the Boeing aircraft. So, I'm going to post some information on the model I hope to build, but don't expect all the fine-grained detail that Flight Metal is posting.

I've managed to track down some data on the B-47 wing airfoil, and, subject to some further input from Boeing Archives, will use that for the wing; the horizontal and vertical stabilizer airfoils are unknown to me, but I'll use NACA 64A010 of suitable thickness to start.

Here's a photo of my horizontal stab./elevator layout; the (scale) span is 24.75 inches.

I'll try to add some further info depending on my progress.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
02-16-2010, 05:33 AM
Looking good Dave! What is the length and wingspan?

Capt. Midnight
02-16-2010, 07:47 PM
Here's a few more details on my B-47 model:

W/S: 87 inches
Fuselage length: 80.34 inches

Sources:

Museum of Flight B-47E, s/n 51-7066 (photos and dimensional data)
Dimensioned 3-view drawing from Boeing Archives Office
1/72nd scale Hasegawa plastic model kit
"Boeing's B-47 Stratojet," by Alwyn T. Lloyd (2005; ISBN 1-58007-071-X)

GGRN
02-17-2010, 06:44 AM
Capt Midnight, your project is close to mine in dimensions : 1/15th WS : 90,5" L : 78,7". The structure is all from 3 and 6 mm Depron (to be as light as possible) and the fuselage is already built. The airfoil is the good old Clark Y. 6 EDF and retracts. Which material and EDF system do you plan to use for the structure and propulsion ?
Philippe

Capt. Midnight
02-17-2010, 11:39 PM
Hi Philippe!

I will be using my 'normal' balsa/basswood-stick and balsa sheet, with heat-shrink covering technique (same as on my 1/12th-scale model of the BAC TSR 2 - see attached photo).

I have never used Depron, but have taken contact with one of the local "experts" on the material (he has built almost exclusively with it, and his models fly very well). Depron is not readily available in my local area (Seattle/Bellevue, Washington), but it can be purchased in various thicknesses and quantities. As I get further along in the B-47, I may see if I can get some and give it a try.

My plan is to use 6 HET 6904 fans (from ICARE/ICARUS in Canada - apparently they are very close to the Wemotech Mini fan, but with slightly higher thrust, according to ICARE).

How is your model progressing, and what fan will you use?

Regards,

Dave Plummer

GGRN
02-18-2010, 02:16 AM
Hi dave !
Depron is a lot cheaper than balsa here... So i'm like your friend, and almost build my models with it. I'm targeting a very light model (around 1,8 - 2 kg ready to fly), so 6 GWS EDF 50 with Feigao 5300 Kv (total thrust around 900 grams) should provide enough power. I like those Fans and built several models with them in the past (S3 Viking, Su 25 Frogfoot, FW TA 183, Airbus A 318, Airbus A 340 and Me 262) with very good results, even with brushed motors for some of them... So let's hope this Stratojet will not be an exception...:rolleyes: Be back on the build next week-end !
Regards

Philippe

Capt. Midnight
03-04-2010, 06:29 AM
Hi B47ers!

I've been plinking away on 'Section 41' (the horiz. and vertical stabilizers, elevators and rudder) for the 1/16th-scale version of the aircraft. Below is a photo of these units temporarily assembled - check fit. I'll post a few more of these assemblies after a bit more progress.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-04-2010, 02:34 PM
David,

I assume you ordered and are using the Model Airplane News AirAge Publishing featured
B-47D planset.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=117366&d=1262560424

That plan vertical fin and horizontal stab design with carbon fiber vail should do very well.

You asked about station locations for specific shapes. I traditionally use station numbers as
a "zone" in which a shape fits. I suppose because you used technical drawings when you
worked at Boeing you tend to lean more to an explicit location on the drawing equating to a
mirrored location on your model.

I tend to weigh heavily on reminding anyone willing to pay attention to my foolishness that
artists are not engineers. Engineers typically net the worlds worst artistic work as it more
often than not is explicit and harsh.

Think in terms of artist drawings as warm and fuzzy. Yes, you have my permission to join the
now thousands of people considering me either OCD, stupid, or nuts.

I recently replied to your station inquiry within my 1/10.2 B-47E-IV thread. My reply said to
render the cross section background transparent with its lines (perimeter & datum) in black.
Next, align image with datum lines you established on your project control drawing. Next,
using directional control keys on your Golden Delicious move it left and right as if to "slide"
along your project control drawing....until it fits.

What is it about this that is any different than standing in FedEx Office with project control
drawing at 1:1 and introducing another cross section... its transparency lets you print the
drawing at 1:1 with the new cross section in place as part of your fuselage unit set.

Lots of people appear to think because they don't use CAD they can't scratch build. This is
clearly not true. I recommend the following tools be acquired to enable a computer to work
up any multiple view into a model.

People with Microsoft Operating Systems regardless of flavor:
Microsoft Image Composer... (1 program)

People with an Apple operating system regardless of flavor:
Any, if not all Adobe image editors falling into a group referenced as a suite intended for
editing images, photos, and text. Many of these products can function within either the
Windows OS or the Apple OS. Example: PhotoShop, Illustrator, Premier, etc.

You do not have to become an expert to use these tools...and tools they are. They are
no different than a hammer and various styles of nail, or screw driver and carious style
of screw.

Usually, what we as modelers need to achieve is to resize, and convert to a transparent
background in order to place image on top of another image to either add to or simply align
prior to "consideration" for addition to your project control drawing.

As I have probably over illustrated on my thread...nothing remains static for long in these
projects. What was assumed to be...rarely continues to be for very long as a project moves
forward. This is the real advantage of a virtual platform to work within.

Note, I did not describe any of this as high tech or even mention the C (CAD) word. In the
typical Golden Delicious flavor of all this there are built in tools (applications) which enable
manipulation of .eps as well as .tif, .tiff, .gif, .png, and the last one to use ...jpg.

I am close to purchasing a portable case of Golden Delicious to edit my real world occupation
presentations as well as edit my Flite-Metal application and finishing videos.

While warming one of the seat cushions within Best Buy's Apple crate, I found all the crates
come with almost everything you need and for the most part...its free. Yes, its in the Golden
Delicious crate...which until you realize they come with this they may seem more expensive
than an International Business Machine format.

Check it out, your modeling ROI will benefit.

givmeasmoothy
03-04-2010, 02:54 PM
How do you guys build these things with foam. Do you make the frame with balsa then put the faom on. Thats wild how you make these things. I need a book on scratch building. Cant wait until flight-metal gets done and hope he puts a video of flight.

Flite-Metal
03-04-2010, 03:17 PM
How do you guys build these things with foam.

With no intention to steal anyone away from David's 1/16th B-47 thread...

The 1/10.2 B-47E-IV thread was created to explicitly illustrate an answer to your question.
Literally, all you need do is replicate it and you'll have a 1/10.2 B-47E-IV.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52194

David's B-47 is going to have six edf units and in reality will be much more scale than mine
because of its smaller size will enable a much lighter AUW.

Dave, having worked for Boeing and around B-47's has a mind's eye with the familiarity few
modelers have an opportunity to enjoy. On my thread, Joe Martin flew his designed from
scratch 80" w/s D version...in 1962. Joe designed exclusively from photos.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/_disc1/joecover800.jpg

Follow David's thread and drawings I assume he will post along the way and you can easily
and quickly, more quickly than either he or I, build your own.

Capt. Midnight
03-04-2010, 10:32 PM
How do you guys build these things with foam. Do you make the frame with balsa then put the faom on. Thats wild how you make these things. I need a book on scratch building. Cant wait until flight-metal gets done and hope he puts a video of flight.

Hi 'Givmeasmoothy'!

I'm definitely not the one to answer your inquiry on how to build with foam, as I only use it very infrequently when there are complex shapes/surfaces to model. When I do use it, I just carve/sand to the shape I'm trying to model, then (usually) cover with very light glass cloth to protect the surface from dings and dents.

I believe there is a good book on building with foam; I don't have the title handy, but a Google search should turn it up very quickly. Also, there are a number of forums/threads on building with foam, so I'm sure you could get some good advice/help from them.

Yes, I certainly agree that it will be wonderful to see a video of Flight Metal's B-47, as it is sure to be a sooper model.

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-05-2010, 12:15 AM
Guys when we get there, we'll get there...no rushing our 1/10.2. I am anxious to see David's 1/16th. I am curious...what are you doing for landing gear retraction?

Capt. Midnight
03-05-2010, 05:21 AM
Hi Ed!

As far as LG for my model is concerned, I have not done too much planning, except to evaluate their space requirements, etc. My 'general' plan is to use linear electric actuators for the retract mechanisms (I don't like the air-driven actuators); there are a fair number of 'miniature' actuators available from various sources, so will continue evaluating various options. On other models (TSR 2, F-100D) I have used Lado retracts, but apparently Lado is being sold or going out of business, so will have to find some drive units from other sources.

Regards,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
03-22-2010, 05:35 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I've made a little progress on the empenage for the model; a couple of photos are attached (I hope). Next is the fuselage - may have to buy a new 36-inch hollow-core door, as the existing one is pretty will cut up.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
03-27-2010, 09:49 PM
Hi B-47ers!

I've started on the fuselage - I'm building it upside down with a 1/2-inch alum tube along waterline 131.5; the building surface corresponds to WL 200. Each station/frame will be positioned and glued to the top/bottom/side 'longerons'; once this is done, I could rotate the fuselage (if necessary), and add enough stringers to keep the fuselage in shape. Some of the frames will be laminated for strength (for LG/retract mounts, wing torque box, etc. So far, it seems to be going reasonably well, though it is a bit tedious and time consuming.

Quantitative data/measurements available on this dang airplane is very scarce, and some of the drawings from tech orders are obviously in error. However, this isn't unusual for these 'vintage' aircraft, and isn't a fatal show-stopper.

I'll get a bit further along and will add some additional photos.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-27-2010, 11:08 PM
Dave,

Did you receive the email I sent?

Capt. Midnight
03-28-2010, 02:25 AM
Hi Ed!

Yep, sure did - sent an email to your email address just a few minutes ago.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-28-2010, 03:19 AM
What can I say, this is how bad it is. You are fortunate they took a little more interest and
resulting resolution...in your copy of it :^)
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=124108&stc=1&d=1269742715

By the way...the airfoil shown above this section on BAC's drawing is an accurate airfoil. It's a reflex with a nice long midpoint to trailing edge to accommodate the flaps... :)

Flite-Metal
04-01-2010, 06:10 PM
Dave,

Thanks for the expedited copy at 200%. It solved my problem...here's a
gold star to hang in the background of your build :)

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=124425&stc=1&d=1270087580



Thanks again!,

Capt. Midnight
04-02-2010, 06:26 AM
Hi B-47ers!

The skeleton of the fuselage is mostly done - see attached photos. It was no fun, but the good news was that virtually all the station/frames seemed to come out quite well. One of the problems was that the Boeing 'desk-model' drawing on which my version is based was poorly scanned (by Boeing Archives); this led to some uncertainty in the actual lofting of the lower aft fuselage mold line on the keel. In the end, I just faired in some ogives and a straight section, and it seemed to match the fuselage station/frames; a few had to be adjusted at their lower intersections with the 'keel' longeron. Now the hard part: adding enough stringers to keep the darn thing in alignment, without introducing significant strains - or, at least balancing the strains around the circumference and length of the fuselage.

More later.

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-02-2010, 12:45 PM
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=124533&stc=1&d=1270208226
*Hal courtesy of MGM Home Entertainment's "2001 A Space Odyassy
http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi2388329497/


Dave................::o

Dave.............................................. .......where is your Star ????

Dave...............................its not nice to ignore a Gold Star....:eek:

Dave...............................compliance to protocol is essential...:eek:

Dave........compliance is essential to the fabric of the universe...::o

Dave.................................Dave......... .........................Dave

Dave...compliance is essential to stability and continuity of the universe.

Dave................why are you being incontinent????

Dave.........

Dave.........remember you are being observed........

Dave.........we are in here watching.................::o

cyclops2
04-04-2010, 01:19 AM
You can tack glue 2 stringers at a time each directly opposite the other. Make sure you DO NOT use a water based glue. A small dot of CA is enough on only any 2 touching surfaces. Save most of the NOTCH area for the wood glues.
When you have the all of them CAd in place, then lay on the water based stuff directly opposite each other. I find Titebond II great, as it does not ever dry as brittle as Epoxy. Strong & givee is my best description. It will form small fillits. The stuff looks massive and heavy but is mainly water weight.
If you are worried about warps. Find some Angle Steel pieces and C clamp the then across the frames when you do the final gluing. I use 3/4" x 3/4" strips. That does stop 99 % of the warps on some of my impatient glue ups.
Forgot to tell you to cut up a bunch of gluing blocks so you can C clamp the frames to the Angle Steel strip. Not a quick job, But very accurate.

Capt. Midnight
04-04-2010, 07:31 PM
Hi Cyclops!

Thanks for the suggestions! I normally do as you've suggested (2 stringers at a time on opposite sides, etc.); and my building jig does do a good job of keeping the fuselage from turning into a banana. I've also pre bent some of the stringers in the nose area to keep the distortion stresses to a reasonable minimum. I also use Titebond II for certain areas, and have noted the same characteristic (sandable, vs the dang epoxy and CA). I'll add some additional photos when I get a bit further along.

Cheers,

Dave P.

PS to Ed/Flite Metal: thanks for the images; I'm just not all that adept at figuring out how to load them into these messages. I like the HAL image, and the gold star, so have printed them and pasted in my computer 'hangout'. Sure hope I don't have to go 'outside' to get the pod-bay doors open ...

Flite-Metal
04-04-2010, 08:14 PM
Dave,

One quick question I have to run. Will Depron as a skin around your stringered fuse be of high enough strength to negate planking and sheeting? This of course would not be for the nose... :)

Capt. Midnight
04-04-2010, 11:20 PM
Hi Ed!

I kinda think the Depron would be plenty strong enough, but my problem is I don't have any of the stuff, and have never done any building with it. One of the guys in my club (a transplanted Englishman, and retired Boeing Commercial aircraft fuel-system expert) has done extensive building with Depron. He lives about 10 miles from me and I've visited him and observed his very skilled use of the material, and seen one of his models (an EDF) fly; it was an excellent model/flier!! The one thing that I had some reservations about was the resulting overall finish of the models; some seams showed, and some of the surfaces were kind of 'wavy' (not a good descriptor, but can't think of a better term). Most of his models were relatively small compared to, say, your 1/10th B-47. I've seen (on some other forums) larger models built more/less completely with Depron, so I'm sure with some patience, one can get a good finish, and strong structures.

There is no local source for the Depron material in my area, so it seems that you have to buy a fair amount of the stuff, even though I noted that some sources sell 'packages' of the material with several sheets of various thicknesses.

Probably my main reservation is I'm not sure I've got enough patience to learn a new building/finishing technique.

Are you planning to use any Depron in your model?

Cheers,

Dave P{.

Flite-Metal
04-05-2010, 01:06 AM
Dave,

Depron is stated to be an XPS extruded polystyrene in 3mm and 6mm thickness. Its most common
use in the United States is white meat trays (generic reference) in the meat department of...for
example Krogers.

As an XPS extruded product it is comprised of closed cell polystyrene with a hard shiney exterior.
The exterior hardness comes from extrusion process and press form shaping of sheet which is then
die cut to relieve meat tray from sheets.

Sheet sizes are smaller than other XPS products. I found Depron in gray, black and white...not all
sizes and thickness were identical. That alone is strange. There is no logical reason to have colors
and thicknesses in different width and length...unless it is utilized exclusively for specific heat form
press sizes.

Zepron is "said to be" an alternative brand for the same polystyrene and found in Z1 and Z2 product
listings...one being hard faced.

The problem I perceive is application. In our cases the cylinderical fuselage could be applied as a
single circumfereal sheet if the seam were capable of being closed over tightly. I suppose with a
keel this could be accomplished by CAing one side then after it is cured down the seam you simply
roll the circumference of the fuselage, tape the seam closed tightly every so often down the seam
length and CA the second half in place.

I prefer my hot wired XPS with balsa laminate and fiber glass over-laminate.

Capt. Midnight
04-10-2010, 06:10 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Have made a little progress on the fuselage - photos attached. The empenage is only temporarily attached to allow some glue to set on the rails that penetrate the vertical stabilizer - hopefully, the thing will come off tomorrow.

The canopy is just a place-holder; looks like I'll have to vacuum form one, as there doesn't seem to be any 'ready-mades' available of the proper shape.

Will install the skeleton of the wing torque box before I remove the fuselage from the building jig.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-10-2010, 03:32 PM
Hi B-47ers! The canopy is just a place-holder; looks like I'll have to vacuum form one, as there doesn't seem to be any 'ready-mades' available of the proper shape. Cheers, Dave P.

Dave,

(1) What is the front to rear length of the canopy measured from windshield parting line at 1/16th?

(2) What is width of canopy along the parting line between windshield frame and balance of canopy?

Measure using "top down aka overhead" drawing @ 1/16th. With this I believe your can-o-pea turned
into a can-o-pee is sanitized...so you retain your sanity and speed of build ;^)

Capt. Midnight
04-10-2010, 05:49 PM
Hi Ed!

Below is a plan view of the 1/16th-scale B-47 canopy at the intersection of the canopy and the fuselage. The dimensions seem to be within 2-3% of the same dimensions measured/adjusted from the canopy for my 1/72nd plastic model. Probably good enough for a stick model of the aircraft. I'll carve a plug and vacuum form the canopy - no big deal, but just another little side track.

I seem to remember that you are planning to use to larger-scale canopies from another model: how is that working out?

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-10-2010, 08:07 PM
David,

If there was an off the shelf canopy wouldn't you rather not have to make it?

We have four canopies for our 1/10.2 B-47's from GP's RV4 ARF. You need only lay this card stock B-47 canopy pattern across RV4 canopy and you achieve what you need. There are muliple size RV4's ARF's and kits out there.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=123273&stc=1&d=1268882820

Did I send you the .pdf for the B-47? Within the .pdf is this canopy pattern which permits you to lay it onto the centerline of a canopy larger than that which you need...then cut what you do need from its shape. http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=123273&stc=1&d=1268882820 open the underlined text in another window and save it to a new file folder.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125453&stc=1&d=1271082180

Can-O-Pea within another canopy... ;^)
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125457&stc=1&d=1271082748

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125456&stc=1&d=1271082601

Note, windshield comes from another canopy with proper windshield post shape.

You simply need a canopy with a "backbone" shape supporting that of the B-47 at your given scale. You ask, where does the windshield come from?

Windshield portion of the canopy for the B-47 will come from a different canopy with the proper dims to support that of your model's windshield... or at worst case, you have to make the windshield which is infinately a lot easier than creating a plug for a one-off.

If I failed to send you the .pdf...email me back channel and its your's.

Capt. Midnight
04-13-2010, 02:21 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I'm sticking with the 'old-fashioned' way of making a canopy: plug and vacu form. Attached are 3 snaps of my plug; will coat it with epoxy tomorrow and finish it up; should have a trial canopy in a couple of days.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Shanksow
04-13-2010, 06:12 AM
Two threads on the B-47. I want to keep an eye out for both of your B-47 projects

Capt. Midnight
04-17-2010, 06:09 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I've whacked out a first cut at a pilot's ejection seat with the help of my 'stand-in' pilot. Am trying to locate the 'floor' of the cockpit, and the position of the pilot and co-pilot ejection seats. Can't find any meaningful 'data' (some photos are available), so it's mostly try and see what seems about right. Photos attached. Any suggestions are welcome.

Cheers,

Dave P.

givmeasmoothy
04-17-2010, 01:48 PM
Very nice work looking forward to seeing when done. Are you gonna video the maidan flight.

Flite-Metal
04-17-2010, 03:23 PM
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125727&stc=1&d=1271514946

Co-pilot seat rotates around so he can operate the 20mm cannons.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125760&stc=1&d=1271524239

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125723&stc=1&d=1271514613
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125722&stc=1&d=1271514409
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125721&stc=1&d=1271514171
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125728&stc=1&d=1271515190
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125729&stc=1&d=1271515190

Capt. Midnight
04-17-2010, 05:25 PM
Hi Ed and Givmeasmoothy!

Ed: Thanks for the photos, etc.; I had all of them except the two seats on the green surface: are these for your model? I think the illustration from the T.O. is for the early version of the seats (at least according to some other references I have). Yep, I knew the co-pilot's seat rotated; haven't started that one yet. Not sure I will put in the forward/nose crewman. Main concern at present is the waterline reference for the floor of the cockpit - cannot find any info on that, so will just eyeball it, I guess.

Givmeasmoothy: assuming I don't pass on to the wild blue yonder before completing this black-hole time sink, I'll sure try to get someone to get some photos/video of the first flight.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-17-2010, 06:08 PM
Dave,

You make a good back board to bounce things off of... :) The B-47 resources I have are a total
mess with respect to chronology outside of virtual and hardcopy manuals. Its probably due to the
"archives" never really caring to disclose the timeline for any photo they released.

I suppose we can blame it on the Cold War with all the baggage accompanying it. Need to know...
eyes only issues probably caused it.

http://www.Wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125727&d=1271514946

Would you believe this is 1/48th "scratch building"? Yes, a builder of the 1/48 V-form B-47E
scratched these in much more detail than the kit provided. Talk about inspiration :)

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125757&stc=1&d=1271523678

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125758&stc=1&d=1271523678

Because of built up construction you can enjoy building the nav-bombbadier station. I'm posting
supporting images for workstation below. As long as you use Styrene and not load up on anything
heavy you'll probably need the added weight. Would be nice to look in the side windows and see the
layout.

Here are the steps up from the entry just aft of the nav-bombbadier station.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125751&stc=1&d=1271522785

Note the man in white shirt is sitting on the steps, there were jump seats which could be deployed
to this area during emergency landings/ditchings.

From his point of observation "up" this is what he would see...

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125759&stc=1&d=1271524041

A view of the pilots instrument panel from down below on the step beside the pilot and co-pilot seats.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125761&stc=1&d=1271525246

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125752&stc=1&d=1271522785

Looking back forward the nav-bombbadier station is behind and after of the man in blue.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125753&stc=1&d=1271523211

Click the thumbnail for enlarged image of the N/B layout.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125756&stc=1&d=1271523678

As you can see there is not a lot to it. For what could be seen from outside.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125754&stc=1&d=1271523387

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125755&stc=1&d=1271523406

Last but not least...here is another view of the 1/48th cockpit created for the Sanger V-
form kit. The step is clearly visible as it will appear in my 10.2%. Mine will be a one piece
tub that can be easily removed with minimum number of parts.

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal7/6301-6400/gal6380-B-47-Aibara/18.jpg

Capt. Midnight
04-19-2010, 06:22 AM
Hi Ed and other B-47ers!

I agree - I'm planning for the step-floor in my model, too; but have had no good references to establish the correct waterlines, so am just charging ahead with the use of photos from a variety of sources.

I did incorporate ECP-1 in my pilot's ejector seat; photo attached. The updated version now includes the capability to 'eject' the seat/pilot (OK, move it up/down/out on the rail system). This seems to work just fine, but my stand-in pilot is just a tad oversize, but can't find any action figures (or pilot figures) of the exact (1/16th-scale) size, so will just have to live with this turkey.

I've got the stepped version of the floor constructed, and will try various waterlines with the ejector seat installed; will include a photo in next post.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-19-2010, 01:36 PM
Dave,

I believe Uncle George will fit the bill quite nicely...1/16th scale figures are the 120 mm figures.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125974&stc=1&d=1271680387http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125978&stc=1&d=1271687093


A little alteration of the molded positions of parts like saw cut behind knees, opposite elbow, relief
of lower torso and a little paint gets you there immediately. He's probably going to be right there in
Seattle at the Spring IPMS Show.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125979&stc=1&d=1271688318

Buy 2 of either Verlinden Top Gun Pilots or Commander In Chief plus 2 Verlinden WWII Pacific Pilots
and you only need to paint May West yellow, uniforms blue, and helmets white for instant crew. I
like the WWII Pacific Pilot uniform best.

Yes, you can trade heads between figures then place helmet without face shield onto head. Don't
the shoes appear to be on the wrong feet in the bottom image... :eek:

Capt. Midnight
04-19-2010, 06:58 PM
Hi Ed!

Many thanks for the info on the figures!! I sure don't understand why I never found 'Verlinden' during my searches, but it looks like a good site to keep on the list. I've ordered a couple of the 'commander' figures and will see how they work in my model; will provide feedback.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-19-2010, 08:12 PM
Dave,

Don't forget they didn't have G bladder flight gear in 1947... :) I would have thought you would have
checked out the figures at the Seattle IPMS Spring Show. I understood the IPMS Show was going on
there.

Capt. Midnight
04-19-2010, 11:00 PM
Hi Ed!

Yeah, I remember to do something about the G-stuff (I remember how we had to make 5-g pull-outs in the T-33 during training - we were supposed to grunt, as I recall, but it was a strain!!).

Also, just a thought: when I was flying in SAC (1956-58), all our flight suits were light gray - all the blue suits were gone by the time I got to my branch of SAC, but they may have been in use elsewhere in those days. Since the later B-47s were still in service in those days, I'm going with the light gray color. (Will check thru my 14,789 slides from the past 50 years and see if I can come up with a crew shot ...)

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
04-25-2010, 02:15 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I received my 2 'pilot-figures' from Verlinden today - yike! I didn't realize it was a 'do-it-yourself assembly' operation!! After a bit of fussing, and a telephone call to my friendly orthopedic surgeon, I managed to get one arm and one leg of the pilot positioned; lowered him into the cockpit, but he complained that the instrument panel was too far forward, so had to reposition it so he would be able to control the aircraft. I'll keep you posted on the next developments in the pilot/cockpit/canopy department.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-25-2010, 02:12 PM
DAVE...
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=124533&stc=1&d=1270208226
*Hal courtesy of MGM Home Entertainment's "2001 A Space Odyassy
http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi2388329497/
Dave.............................Dave............. ...............Wake up Dave...It's not nice to look gift horses
in the, well, mouth. Remember when I sent you outside to "repair" something and didn't let you back
in to play?

It could be worse...He could still be your President...:red: Or did you order the non-Republican wanna
-bee behind the face shield? Let him come out from behind the veil of secrecy so we can see.... Or is
he a peace-nik?
Adli Stevenson perhaps????????

:tc: Looking good ! ! ! ! ! !

Flite-Metal
05-18-2010, 12:23 AM
Dave,

Clearly you're up to no good....too quiet up there in the upper left corner of the US... Hummmmmmm
can we take a peek....Dave ????

Capt. Midnight
05-18-2010, 06:34 AM
Hi Ed!

Sorry to have been 'silent' for so long - just got out of the insane asylum after being committed for a bit - went berserk trying to figure out how to build/detail the pilot/co-pilot cockpit of my B-47. Have calmed down some, and made a little progress: got an acceptable canopy formed and separated into the windscreen and main 'bubble;' got the canopy frame built and hinged (at the rear), and finally got the pilot & copilot arranged in some reasonable fashion and some progress on the instrument panels. I'll post some photos tomorrow (my psychiatrist just showed up for another 'calming' session'). I've hired a hit man to find and exterminate the persons that got me started on this pesky model - I gave him your name as the first assignment...

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-18-2010, 05:05 PM
Hi Ed! I've hired a hit man to find and exterminate persons that got me started on this...I gave him your name as the first assignment... Cheers, Dave P.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127918&stc=1&d=1274200051

Dave...what was that click? Dave...you know its not nice to tinker around with that circuitttttt bbbbbbooooooaaaarrrrrddddd...... D.........a........v........::o

Capt. Midnight
05-19-2010, 05:37 AM
Hi B-47ers!

OK, after a little side-track, here's a few views of my cockpit stuff. I had to build the major sub-assemblies separately, with the forward and aft cockpit 'floor' being separable so I could get them in/out of the cockpit many times to be able make adjustments (aka corrections) so that the pilot figures, seats, control columns/'wheels' and other details would bear some resemblance to the photos and other lousy 'documentation' I have. Each of the pilot/seat assemblies slide up/down on their rails, and their position/configuration/dimensions seem roughly to match the meager information I have.

I haven't attached the windscreen and canopy to their respective frames; I'll do this after I get everything painted and the rest of the interior of the cockpit area completed (maybe sometime in the next century ...).

I'll submit some additional photos in the next few days to show some more details, but I'm not much of a photographer, so don't expect too much.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-19-2010, 01:34 PM
Dave:

Posting references so people can see what it is you are replicating. Your attention to detail
will more easily be appreciated.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127990&stc=1&d=1274272292
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127991&stc=1&d=1274272292
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127992&stc=1&d=1274272292
If you would like Flite-Metal for the exterior of your canopy frame it will provide the proper thickness and
malleability for application to your canopy. The sample pak will provide you everything you need.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127973&d=1274243680
http://www.tompierce.net/SBD/gfx/office/canopy1/wscrn0002.jpg

Capt. Midnight
05-25-2010, 12:19 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Well, after a lot of trial/error (OK, lots of errors ...) I've about got the main parts of the cockpit completed. The attached photos show the pilot and copilot 'stations', with the copilot instrument panel sitting in about the correct position (supported by the copilot's feet). The pilot's instrument panel is installed in the fuselage, so can't really show it, but it's more/less according to the best info I have. As noted earlier, the cockpit floor separates into 2 pieces so I can install/remove the parts (the limited access through the cockpit opening makes it necessary to install the pieces in a particular sequence, but it all seems to work OK).

I've had to make O2 masks for the pilot/copilot, and they're not quite finished, but are good enough for my limited skills. I couldn't find any 1/16th masks anyplace, so gave up and built the dang things.

I'll do some more detailing of the LH side of the cockpit, and the rear 'station' for the copilot, but won't try to get carried away, as this aspect of the model has turned into a black hole as far as slurping up time is concerned.

Will post a few more photos after the O2 masks and harnesses are on the pilot/copilot.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-25-2010, 01:13 AM
Looking good Dave ! ! !

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=128548&d=1274742897

Everyone needs a up close and personal view of your excellent work!

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=128547&d=1274742897

Don't forget to secure this so it does not "shake loose". For a 16th scale you did a fabulous job replicating the cockpit.

Capt. Midnight
05-29-2010, 08:34 PM
Hi B-47ers!

I'm calling it quits on the pilot/copilot installation: couple of photos attached.

I've installed the wind screen, and will install the main canopy next; photos coming in a few days.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
05-31-2010, 12:11 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I've pretty well completed the canopy; 3 photos attached. For once I decided to use my brain and not attach the canopy to the frame until the model is more/less complete. It seems to fit fairly well, but I think it is a tad too large - my plug was a bit oversize, I guess. However, it's no big deal, and it looks pretty good.

More later,

Dave P.

Shanksow
05-31-2010, 01:33 AM
This is looking really good!

Capt. Midnight
06-03-2010, 03:37 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I've added some 'black boxes' and the CRT (??) display/control for the copilot's gunnery duty to the area behind the copilot's seat; photo attached.

I need to add some additional panels to the RH side of the pilot's and copilot's station; and to the LH side of the cockpit 'stairway'/tunnel to the forward observer's compartment. This will complete the cockpit are to the extent I intend to detail these areas.

More later; cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-03-2010, 01:17 PM
O.C...Dave,

Its looking real ;) Nice attention to detail in the tub. With it that size its challenging
to keep details from breaking off what you have already completed as you move back
and forth to and from the tub position in the fuselage.

Question...I forget whether you are using LED lighting in multiple colors within your
cockpit. Your eye magnet will draw giggles of wonder from kids of all ages as if they
were looking under their family Christmas tree... ;^) A little Rudolph goes a long long
way.

Can't wait to see it finished "outside" the fuselage in a 360 degree photo expos'e

Capt. Midnight
06-05-2010, 05:45 PM
Hi Ed!

Nope - no LED's - too complicated for my limited skills!! I'll sure be interested to see your light up when you get to the 'build' stage.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-06-2010, 03:33 AM
Hi Ed! Nope - no LED's - too complicated for my limited skills!! I'll sure be interested to see yours light up when you get to the 'build' stage. Cheers, Dave P.

The build stage can not begin until the dims are established for the BAC drawing.

Flite-Metal
06-14-2010, 05:04 PM
Dave,

I have never found a description of a dome sitting on top of the cannon control panel behind the co-pilot . Its unlikely to be a rotating beacon. No need to place a loop antenna in a shielded dome.

Gave up and decided you had to know since you sat ahead of it... :)

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=130365&stc=1&d=1276530956

Flite-Metal
06-15-2010, 12:15 AM
Dave,

I just found what it is. The radio compass loop antenna. I dove back into the flight manual and found
it in the layout description of the 20mm cannon control station.
http://jproc.ca/rrp/rrp3/argus_arn6_antenna.jpg
Glass dome is sealed to retain nitrogen gas the loop radio compass is surrounded by. I assume the
temperature gradiant differential is the intent with this. The antenna's accuracy would go down with
a rise in temperature....the B-47's greenhouse was definately HOT!

The other photos I have of it left the impression it had an andonized aluminum cover. Note the RCAF
data plate on the case.

Capt. Midnight
06-16-2010, 02:24 AM
Hi Ed!

Sorry for the delay in responding. As far as I can determine, that little puppy is the AN/ARC-6 antenna assembly; here's a website that has a photo of it:


http://www.blujay.com/item/Aircraft-Antique-WWII-ADF-Loop-Antenna-2060600-1466838

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
07-05-2010, 04:58 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I've been busy nursing my wife (following pancreatic cancer surgery), so have had very little time for the model. Nevertheless, I think I'm ready to call it quits on the cockpit details - the only way most of them can be seen is if I put in a picture window on the fuselage along side the cockpit ...

Basically, there is very little photographic or other information on the cockpit interior - except for the instrument panels and some details of the side panels for the pilot and copilot; there are some diagrams of the bomb/nav guy's hangout, and some other fleeting shots of some areas, but no comprehensive info on the interior of the crew areas. Probably FliteMetal has found all sorts of stuff, but, since most of it can't be seen anyway, I've just ad-libbed some of it, and that will have to do.

I've attached a couple of shots of the bits and pieces that, hopefully, will all fit together when I try to stuff them into the model. I'll let you know if they all fit.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Dave,

First of all you and your wife are in our thoughts and prayers.

You've done an excellent job on that cockpit and I was shocked that you were doing a nose
station. While I have photos of the bomb/nav desk area it is as you say...next to impossible
to be appreciated since there are very small windows up there.

I'll attach several so folks can see what little room the bomb/nav had in his area. Its amazing
what kids found in their corn flake boxes to play with... Perhaps a controller for their Sugar
Pops!

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131342&stc=1&d=1278333209

Capt. Midnight
07-05-2010, 08:13 PM
Hi Ed!

Many thanks for the sooper references on the observer/navigator's station! I had a few of them, but, as usual, you always have a great set of reference material.

One thing I have not been able to pin down is whether the B-47E observer/navigator station actually had 'windows' - some photos of this configuration seem to show a 'window' in the center of the emergency access hatch(es??), but it isn't clear whether what appear to be 'windows' are just material that can be broken from the outside to gain access in an emergency.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Voyager2lcats
07-05-2010, 09:30 PM
Dave, along with Ed, you have done a fantastic job on your B-47. I love the interchange of ideas between you two. LOL. HAL the computer was very subtle but funny.;)

Bob

Flite-Metal
07-06-2010, 01:00 AM
Hi Ed! as usual, you always have a great set of reference material. One thing I have not been able to pin down is whether the B-47E observer/navigator station actually had 'windows' Dave P.

Tadaaaa!

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131365&stc=1&d=1278375021

Note the side glass above. with what you have already engineered it would look good with
some bright LED's inside the bomb/nav area. A real kick butt when someone looks inside :)
The crowds will be enormous at the contests you go to.

My 10.2% front is is now looking like it will be fiber glass from a female mold instead of vested in a male mold process. I will build out the bomb/nav station with appropriate lighting since I
am thinking I will need ballast up front.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131366&stc=1&d=1278375464

Above you can clearly see the inset of the side glass. In this config there is one on each side. You will see photos with these covered over with plate.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131367&stc=1&d=1278376286

Consistant the side windows remain on all the E and the RB.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131369&stc=1&d=1278376645

Here again the side windows are a recurring presence all the way through the 1953 production of E's.

Capt. Midnight
07-15-2010, 05:22 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Apparently the B-47E did have at least one window, probably 2, for the observer/navigator in the forward compartment. Attached is a photo of my first cut at the LH side escape hatch, with the window within it. Will send along additional photos when I get the nose completed.

Cheers,

Dave P.

ArneH
07-15-2010, 08:10 AM
Thank you both for this interesting post. I am very interested in Aviation History, and it's a pleasure to follow your project. And study Flite Metals treasure chamber of detailed knowledge.:cool:
Hope your wife will have a fast recovery, and you will find more time working on your Aviation Project.[popcorn]

Flite-Metal
07-15-2010, 04:16 PM
Thank you both for this interesting post and study Flite Metals treasure chamber of detailed knowledge.:cool:[popcorn]
In the words of Hogan's Heros German prison camp guard..."I know nusing, nusing at all!" Just a wee resource from the B-47E documentation... :)

Voyager2lcats
07-15-2010, 05:23 PM
In the words of Hogan's Heros German prison camp guard..."I know nusing, nusing at all!" Just a wee resource from the B-47E documentation... :)

Ed, you have done an absolutely magnificent job of information sharing- both technical and photographic. I know everyone subscribed to this thread will agree.

To Dave, I wish you the best and hope that you and your wife make it throught this difficult time. My thoughts and prayers go out to you.

Bob

Flite-Metal
07-15-2010, 05:35 PM
Ed, you have done an absolutely magnificent job of information sharing- both technical and photographic. I know everyone subscribed to this thread will agree. Bob

Bob,

Sharing is what its all about... :) Not enough of it goes on today.

When I started my 10.2% B-47E thread and began contributing to Dave's I decided this was going to be one time anyone who wanted to replicate our efforts could do so from these two threads. Nothing special about images being shared. Over 80% have come from the internet.

Dave and his wife are in our thoughts and prayers. Dave gets a break now and then to work on his B-47. Lots on his mind these days.

Capt. Midnight
07-17-2010, 06:20 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Trying to get accurate dimensions on the Y-4 bombsight and the thing-a-ma-jig above it is impossible ... at least with my limited skills: see photo. there appears to be a little fairing around the optical 'port', so I'll kind of fair that in as best as I can.

The refueling door is next - can't locate a copy of T.O. 1B47E-2-8, but have emailed some obscure USAF outfit to see if there may be an archived copy somewhere. Photos give some general configuration info, but dimensional 'data' (or detailed outline of the door) looks to be equally in the empty set.

More later,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-17-2010, 07:10 AM
Does this help? By the way...that thing-a-ma-jig is called radar...a different one than that on the chin.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131983&stc=1&d=1279346375
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131985&stc=1&d=1279346375
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131986&stc=1&d=1279346375
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131984&stc=1&d=1279346375
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131990&stc=1&d=1279346904
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131987&stc=1&d=1279346904
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131988&stc=1&d=1279346904

Capt. Midnight
07-17-2010, 05:56 PM
Hi Ed!

Thanks for the photos!!

Yep, I knew the little 'thing-a-ma-jig' was the radar component of the 47's bomb directing set - just a having a little fun.

As far as I can determine, at least some of the B-47Es had the AN/ASB-3 bomb directing set installed. The small tubular protrusion above the optical component was, I believe, the antenna for the AN/APS-23 radar (one of the components of the ASB-3 system); it was manufactured by (at least) Western Electric. I've spent a little time searching on these items, but so far have not found any detailed descriptions. If anyone has any good 'data' on these sets, please let me know.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Voyager2lcats
07-17-2010, 07:12 PM
Okay. Technical question. How does that flap covering the refueling receptacle open and close? I don't see any mechanical arm or gearing on it (makes sense, as you don't want messy shapes foiling your air flow;)). Is there gearing or a pinion insided the refueling port cover to crank it into place? I know it is immaterial to modeling this aircraft, but I am really intrigued. See how you've got me interested in this Ed and Dave?:)

Capt. Midnight
07-17-2010, 08:40 PM
Hi 'Voyager'!

I'll defer to Ed on this one, but my guess is there's some sort of mechanical (maybe electric-powered?) torsional linkage that rotates the door open/close. As you noted, there do not seem to be any actuator arms attached to the door. If I could get a copy of the -2-8 T.O., I'm sure it would explain the details.

How about the answer, Ed??

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-18-2010, 01:21 AM
Hi Ed! Thanks for the photos!! If anyone has any good 'data' on these sets, please let me know. Cheers,
Dave P.

Dave,

Are you going compete with this B-47? If so, all you do is replicate a photo walkaround and multiple view drawing for AMA and Scale Masters.

You are replicating documentation...not building a model to museum scale specs. You don't have to replicate anything that can't be seen in a photo walkaround or a multiple view drawing when viewed from 15 feet away from the model. The craftsmanship judge comes within four feet of it but every onther judge has to be 15 feet away.

Ed

Flite-Metal
07-18-2010, 01:25 AM
Okay. Technical question. How does that flap covering the refueling receptacle open and close? I don't see any mechanical arm or gearing on it (makes sense, as you don't want messy shapes foiling your air flow;)). Is there gearing or a pinion insided the refueling port cover to crank it into place? I know it is immaterial to modeling this aircraft, but I am really intrigued. See how you've got me interested in this Ed and Dave?:)

Quite simply, the fuel door opens forward "into the air stream" hinged at its forward base. Door mass fills the cavity when closed. I have already posted images showing interior when open. Its apparently hydraulically operated considering the amount of energy required to open it into a 600 mph air stream.

Originally I thought it rotated to minimize air resistance to the motion. No, it literally opens "forward" on hinges. Below is an animated gif I created from film footage showing it open and close. It is shot in the dark for some reason and you have to know what you are looking at to understand it.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=132067&stc=1&d=1279414320

Yes, I get the "door prize" for all the research I have done on the B-47E IV. As I announced on my thread, all the documentation is available on a single CD....about 700 meg worth.

Capt. Midnight
07-18-2010, 02:45 AM
Hi Ed!

Have no intention of entering any competitions with my model, but I do like to replicate certain 'major' features, so will include the door; probably will include a capability to open it (manually).

I'm not sure that the door would be hydraulically powered, but perhaps it was. As far as I can tell (from the various photos) the door is pretty much just a 'door' - it doesn't fill up the cavity where the tanker refueling probe is inserted into the aircraft's receptacle.

Also, the refueling IAS for KC-29/-50 tankers was very low - probably (I'm guessing) around 175kts (probably lower, and in a slight descent at ca 12,000 ft, or lower), maybe with 1/2 flaps; when the KC-135s were used, I presume they could go to higher IAS values, and probably much higher altitude (20K??).

You can do the conversion from IAS to TAS (depends on temp., altitude, etc.), but I'm sure the TAS was way below 600kts/mph. I can't remember the airspeed we used in the B-52 (with KC-135 tankers), but I think the altitude was on the order of 25K. Of course IFR for the B-52 was totally different than the B-47, but I'm guessing IAS at 25K was on the order of 250-275kts.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-18-2010, 02:44 PM
Dave,

I encourage you to compete with your B-47. Good heavens man, you have tons of Scale Masters and AMA scale events going on all around you. The only busier place for competitive flying scale modeling is in the Ohio Valley. After all the B-47's flight plans are the simplest you could ever perform.

There is bound to be an attachment of some kind at the inside base just above the hinge points on either side of the base. Look closely above you will see the none moving hinge attachment on the right.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=132247&stc=1&d=1279600269

I do not have a close photo in enough light to view motion attachment. You could be correct in that it may have been opened electrically. I imagine a simple hydraulic assembly powered by an electric motor would be small in that cramped space up front.

Voyager2lcats
07-18-2010, 05:11 PM
There is bound to be an attachment of some kind at the inside base just above the hinge points on either side of the base. Look closely above you will see the none moving hinge attachment on the right.

I do not have a close photo in enough light to view the motion attachment. You could be correct in that it may have been opened electrically. I imagine a simple hydraulic assembly powered by an electric motor would be small in that cramped space up front.

Ed and Dave, I would imagine there might be a type of worm gear driving the door open on the inside hinge areas (left and right). That seems like the most space efficient way to prop that baby open into a moderately strong air flow. Probably driven by a small hydraulic pump- they can get pressure going pretty fast. I obviously don't know for certain.;)

Bob

Voyager2lcats
07-18-2010, 08:03 PM
While obsessively hunting for info on that silly fuel door, I found this youtube video at this website: Air Refueling Archive http://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/category/b-47/

here is the direct Youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNk5OcOiXjE

Voyager2lcats
07-18-2010, 08:46 PM
Yes I am insane.:rolleyes: Here is a Google book link on the B-47 with some nice interior photos: http://books.google.com/books?id=1QOkMX3Xc4cC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=B-47+stratojet+fuel+door&source=bl&ots=t4aTGMuZ94&sig=PZ2HEXhPm-aqCf6taK3byjELymY&hl=en&ei=RFlDTOWHFYOB8gb5hayUCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCYQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

Shanksow
07-19-2010, 03:15 AM
I just love both these B-47 threads running here. Too much desire, not enough pocketbook right now.

Capt. Midnight
07-20-2010, 12:43 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I've pretty much finished the IFR door; see attached photos. I'm not too happy with the hinge at the bottom of the door, but trying to duplicate/model the aircraft's door hinge system seemed like it wasn't all that important. I may 'upgrade' the door if I ever get the -8 T.O.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-22-2010, 10:15 PM
Dave,

I found a photograph of a work group during the mid 50's redesign of the bomb/nav station. If you are still working up detail in that area I will post or email to you.

Ed

Capt. Midnight
07-22-2010, 11:11 PM
Hi Ed!

Thanks for the offer, but I'm done with the crew area. If I had one of those 'spy cameras', I'd take a photo of my bomb/nav crew member in his seat; guess I'll have to email the CIA and see if they'd loan me one (of the cameras).

Have finally located a copy of T.O. 1B-47E-2-1 and will copy some pages from it when I go to the Seattle Museum of Flight's archives office. Also, expect to receive a copy of a USAF film of a flight of a B-47 from China Lake to (my old SAC location) Castle AFB; don't know what's on it, but will let you know.

Your flight planning seems to be advancing with the speed of B-47 light. Will you have a crew member in the back seat calling out your airspeed, or a radar detector at the field??

Cheers,

Dave P.

Voyager2lcats
07-22-2010, 11:50 PM
Dave, just checking in.;) Your B-47 is looking great. Love the detail- especially the aerial refueling intake door.:D

Bob

Flite-Metal
07-23-2010, 12:23 AM
Dave,

A competitive flying scale model project begins with a "flight plan". The flight plan is 9 maneuvers flown during a single round at a contest. Aircraft are grouped
within specific families with similar flight characteristics and mechanical limitation. Each group or family has a distinct flight behavior which when replicated are
referenced as prototypical to the family they belong to.

You don't typically find someone building something then deciding to compete. Scale models are replications of a specific 1:1 the modeler wants to present for
comparison to documentation they gather "prior to constructing and replicating" by judges who literally compare the model to the documentation from 15' away
in most domestic events.

There are two elements comprising a competitor's score. Each is equal in value...50% of the total contest score. (1) Static score and (2) Flight score are added
together for the contest score at USSMA and AMA events. Multiple judges compare the documentation you provide to your model and declare a value for each
element of the comparison. Flight judges (usually a pair) compare your performance of the flight maneuvers you declare to the written descriptions of each flown.

Your flight plan is written down on a flight round score sheet. There are typically no fewer than three rounds. The two highest flight round scores are summed
and divided by two for the flight score portion of the contest. Added to the static score and you have a contest total score.

Aside from the 9 flight maneuvers flown each round there is a 10th score value per round..."realism in flight" or "flight realism". This is a value for how realistic
your flight maneuvers matched the family of aircraft your model belongs to. This is often referenced as overall round realism. The 10th score reflects how your
round replicated a 1:1 aircraft of that type. Were your angles of attack, overall maneuver smoothness, and presentation representative of the full size aircraft
you replicated.

As I have stated before, this is sport scale modeling. All flying scale modeling in the US is sport scale except for FAI competition. You are not building and flying
a museum accurate replica. You are competing with a hobby level replication of the documentation you gather and present for comparison to your model. The
score is the value of your model's accuracy.

The only absolute requirement is a representation of a pilot has to appear in the cockpit area. How closely your pilot replicates the look and size of a pilot in the
cockpit of a 1:1 of that aircraft type is where the points begin to accumulate. For some reason, many people feel scale contests are nothing more than opinion
points awarded contestants by airplane experts. This is not correct. The judges are comparing what "you" provide for comparison material in your documentation
binder...and your flight maneuvers to the published maneuvers.

A decent example of a documentation binder can be seen here:
http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/Documentation/Beechcraft_YC43_Docs/Beechcraft_YC43_Docs.htm

Here are flight maneuver illustrations with descriptions of each...with typical faults:
http://www.scaleaero.com/fltman1.htm

Capt. Midnight
07-23-2010, 12:30 AM
Hi Ed!

Not sure what caused you to comment on your flight plan, but it sounds great. I was just wondering (tongue in cheek) about your airspeed ...

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-23-2010, 03:20 AM
Dave,

I was just sharing a little of how simple it is to compete vs. what many people try to make it sound like. With the attention to detail you have shown I am
not so sold on you "not" competing... :)

I encourage you to get comfortable with your B-47 then go to a scale contest and compete in the fun scale class. That will get your feet wet with a bunch
of newbees.

Your project will weigh so much less than mine for the little difference in physical size. Built up is so much lighter when it can be achieved down at your B-47's
size. Anything laarger than your B-47 and the weight ramps up really fast.

I have no idea what your air speed will be. Do you have any idea? Based on the F-15 flying at 45 pounds with a pair of Dynamax with an air speed of 140+mph...
I will be happy with anything between 80 and 90 given that will provide the duration I need.

What batteries and ESC are you going to use?

Capt. Midnight
08-08-2010, 02:47 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Have the LH raceway doors installed, but not quite finished. Will try to do the other half tomorrow and post pics of both sides.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Voyager2lcats
08-08-2010, 06:00 PM
Wow, Dave! Really nice.:)

Capt. Midnight
08-13-2010, 10:11 PM
Hi B-47ers!

Well, after some fussing and fuming, I'm going to call the raceway doors good enough (except for some interior paint); this has not been fun, but it's done, so here's a couple of photos showing all the doors. I had some scraps of 'Flite Metal' from my TSR-2, so added a strip between the forward doors just to see what it will look like (I'll use heat-shrink fabric for the model, but after a little buffing, the 'Flite Metal' looks fairly close to the aluminum).

I'll start on the wings next.

More later; cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-13-2010, 10:30 PM
Dave,

Looking good....I can tell you are running shy on patience...ready to fly it aren't you :) .

You finish...aka buff or sand Flite-Metal off the airfame. On a model this small you could easily match the finish of a B-47 in seconds per panel. Tape Flite-Metal down to a perfectly smooth surface...glass or aluminum sheet and wet sand with 300. In seconds its "The Look Of The Real Thing".

The alloy density and tint has to be compressed for a 1:16th scale B-47. Application to a B-47 is in narrow wrap around panels from the bottom up on the fuselage aft of the cockpit. Application from this point forward is top down in narrow panels.

Flite-Metal
08-14-2010, 12:31 PM
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=133587&stc=1&d=1281786498

I acquired an online airfoil application which provides information in clearer graphic form than the one I orginally posted 10.2% B-47 results with. You can print directly from the online application... It contains over 1750 airfoils! http://www.worldofkrauss.com/foils/1423

BACXXX foil of B-47 appears below with angle of attack effeciency graph. Note the maximum lift effeciency is between 6 and 7 degrees then it falls off the sled. If you have the batteries to sustain it the model should fly like a kite.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=133586&stc=1&d=1281788063

Thickness:11.3%
Camber:1.4%
Trailing edge angle:15.0
Lower flatness:49.5%
Leading edge radius:0.8%
Max Lift CL:1.231 CL= Lift Coeff.
Max Lift CL angle: 8.5 CL= Lift Coeff.
Max Lift/Drag L/D:41.464
Max Lift/Drag L/D angle:7.0
Max Lift/Drag L/D CL:1.077 CL= Lift Coeff.
Stall angle:8.5
Zero-lift angle:-2.0

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=133588&stc=1&d=1281788183

The online application will generate SVG images that can be scaled, printed, plotted, scanned, CAD'd, CAM'd etc... :) The images below were generated by AID...copy pasted into Microsoft's Image Composer then saved as a .jpg for posting here.

I could have just as easily saved as .dwg, or .dxf for milling or hot wiring the entire wing. The online program will provide the entire wing by number of "ribs" for a built up wing.

The best way to do that is declare a shorter cord let the program generate the foils. When generated, copy~paste image then edit it to resize to your requirement. Note, the plot is leading edge justified... :D After considering sweep you can draw spar slots, etc...enlarge and save accordingly to the need.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=133589&stc=1&d=1281789463
Before you ask what Moment Coeffecient is... http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/Two_dimensional_coef/TH14.htm

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/Two_dimensional_coef/TH14G2.jpg

Airfoil aerodynamic characteristics. Figure (a) shows the aerodynamic force acting on an airfoil. This force may be separated into lift and drag components, as shown in figure (b). Figure (c) illustrates lift, drag, and moment about the quarter-chord point-all a function of the angle of attack a while figure (d) shows the lift, drag, and moment about the aerodynamic center. The above is illustrated with a 25% aerodynamic center. With the 36 degree sweep this illustration is augmented between root (airfoil @ side of fuselage) and tip.

The Boeing supplied CG data was based on 25% of MAC...on the B-47's 36 degree 38 minute rearward sweep.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=119066&d=1264456902

Hope this is considered helpful... for your thread followers.

Capt. Midnight
08-18-2010, 02:45 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I'm waiting on some feedback from a guy on the B-47 wing airfoil (BAC 145 vs BAC XXX), so decided to build one of the outrigger gears. Attached photo shows almost-complete version - need to do a bit more trimming, etc., but it's basically 'good enough.' The 'oleo' does work, and all I need is some sort of mini-max retract to make the thing work.

More later; cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
08-25-2010, 04:18 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Have about given up on getting feedback from the guy on the B-47 wing airfoil, but will give him a few more days. In the meantime, fab'd a mockup of the 2,3-engine pod (photos below). This turned out to be (just about) a "B-47 Too Far" (from the Allies attempt to take 3 bridges during WW II): building this assembly for the model may be more than I can handle, but will fiddle around with it a bit more.

My previous strut assemblies are no good, so have to redo those dang things. Trying to find a 'reliable' fan/motor for this model (at my 1/16th scale) is also turning into a major problem: there are units available, but reliability seem questionable; no sense building this kind of model unless the engines can be depended upon.

Think I have the outrigger wheel strut and retract figured out, but assembling 2 fans and constructing the ductwork and all the complex fairings may be more work than I want to get into. Some reasonably detailed/dimensioned/cross-sections and other drawing/layouts would be a big help, but there are none available as far as I know, so have to rely on my 1/72 plastic model.

More later,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
08-28-2010, 03:15 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Will try to post a short video of the 2,3-engine pod/strut retract/lower sequence. Doors are not to scale - just place holders. For this to contraption to work, the retract will have to penetrate one of the exhaust tubes by a small amount, but I don't think it will have much effect on the thrust.

Cheers,

Dave P.

PS: Nuts! guess I don't know how to upload a small video file, so it anyone is interested, drop me an email and maybe I can send it along.

Capt. Midnight
08-28-2010, 09:16 PM
OK, try the Utube address for the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUPFzGTjz3U

Cheers,

Dave P.

park
08-29-2010, 02:16 AM
Dave,

Looking good....I can tell you are running shy on patience...ready to fly it aren't you :) .

You finish...aka buff or sand Flite-Metal off the airfame. On a model this small you could easily match the finish of a B-47 in seconds per panel. Tape Flite-Metal down to a perfectly smooth surface...glass or aluminum sheet and wet sand with 300. In seconds its "The Look Of The Real Thing".

The alloy density and tint has to be compressed for a 1:16th scale B-47. Application to a B-47 is in narrow wrap around panels from the bottom up on the fuselage aft of the cockpit. Application from this point forward is top down in narrow panels.

Why don't you start your own thread if you want to sell something.

Flite-Metal
08-29-2010, 02:24 AM
Why don't you start your own thread if you want to sell something.

Sell something? I was going to give Dave all the Flite-Metal for his project and he decided he'd paint it. You're obviously new...
to EDF. You always make friends this way? Never mind... I just read your signature tag line....surprise, surprise...

Have an absolutely wonderful day tomorrow.

Capt. Midnight
08-29-2010, 04:06 AM
Hi Gang!

Hey! I took no offense at Ed's comments/offer on the covering; he's a great model builder, and a good 'correspondent'. We're on different scales/tracts on the B-47, but he has been very helpful, so keep your eye on the end of the runway.

Took a whole bunch of photos of the (Seattle) Museum of Flight B-47 this morning - on the way to join my ex-pat-Brit pal, who is helping build the full-scale replica of the Douglas 'Around-the-World-Cruiser' - it's nearly done, and currently resides in Boeing's old Plant 2, where I first went to work in June 1951 building templates for the B-52; in fact, the 'Cruiser' is currently being assembled in the same Plant 2 factory bay where I worked on the X- and Y-B-52. The World Cruiser is (according to my pal) expected to be finished in about 2-4 months, with the duplicate 'Round-the World' cruise scheduled to start sometime after that. The structure and all the details look like one of our models, but this is a full-scale aircraft - absolutely amazing!!! Photos are available if any interest.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-29-2010, 04:22 AM
I for one would like copies of the Douglas Cruiser images.

As for our low flying cruiser... :) I love it when someone reads a snippet then drops a bomb or two amidst a thread that's as long
as these have gotten.

Hey, do you like Avro Vulcans? Mark Taylor in the UK is about to start one...I sent a ton of stuff his way this evening. There is a
1:33rd scale Vulcan card stock model as a free online download... :) Its a .pdf so you can enlarge it to the max...

If you want to bifurcate the inboard B-47 nacelles I can send you templates for the inlet and exhaust. What fan did you decide to use?

Capt. Midnight
09-06-2010, 10:04 PM
Hi B-47ers!

I'm about ready to give up on the guy whom I asked for info on the B-47 airfoil; maybe he's no longer doing that sort of thing.

So, I've more/less got the LH external fuel tank ready to assemble and paint; see attached photos. The nose and tail cones are just pink foam; the center body is some 'light-weight' model rocket tubing I got from Apogee (they sell model rocket stuff, and are really prompt in sending the items I've ordered). Have to look for some water-soluble aluminum spray paint, as I don't intend to cover the tanks with heat-shrink fabric; and no 'glass.' I'll give the nose/tail cones several coats of clear spray polycrylic before the al coats.

More later,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-06-2010, 10:23 PM
This is the BAC airfoil validated by the BAC drawing as well as two software results. This plot is possible using the plot driver accompanying the online application:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=133589&stc=1&d=1281789463

Capt. Midnight
09-06-2010, 11:41 PM
Hi Ed!

I believe there is some confusion concerning the B-47 airfoil, but I have no way to resolve the issue.

In David Lednicer's listing, the B-47 wing airfoil is given as either "BAC 145" or "NACA 64A(.225)12mod". Lednicer had previously sent me the coordinates for the NACA airfoil; these are somewhat different than the coordinates listed on Boeing's airfoil-listing document (D-5707 A, pg 145.1) for BAC 145. I've done a bit of searching, but can find only one reference that gives the B-47 airfoil (Wapedia); it identifies the NACA airfoil for the aircraft, but gives no clues as to where the information came from.

I also received a short email from Boeing Archives office many months ago that indicated the B-47's airfoil was BAC 145.

I never did find any reference that indicated that the BAC XXX airfoil was used on the B-47.

I've sent several emails to Lednicer asking if he could provide any source for his information, but he no longer responds to email inquiries I guess.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-07-2010, 12:55 AM
BAC145:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=134959&stc=1&d=1283816060

NACA 64(1)-212 MOD A:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=134958&stc=1&d=1283816047

Capt. Midnight
09-07-2010, 02:28 AM
Hi Ed!

Charge on! I can't see that you have any definitive references/sources for your choice of airfoil, but who cares???

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-07-2010, 03:15 AM
Dave,

I guess I misunderstood you were having difficulty obtaining the two airfoils. As you pointed out, whether you use a replica of
the 1:1 airfoil is of no consequence. My reason for using the BAC145 is to gain lift while maintaining 5.5 to 6 deg of incidence...
as can be seen, its "flat" for 2/3 its length.

Capt. Midnight
09-12-2010, 05:32 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Well, I've closed my book on the B-47E airfoil conundrum - never had a response from D. Lednicer, so no use fretting about that issue.

I've spent a little time trying to figure out where the wing aerodynamic center is located, the length/location of the M.A.C., and a few other little details. I've used Boeing drawing 35-1928, Rev. A, and the little drawings from T.O. 1B-47E-2-1; I think these are the same references that Flite Metal is using, but I'm not completely sure; at any rate, they are all I have.

The Boeing drawing was sent to me in a couple/several email attachments from the Boeing Archives office; so, no surprise, there is a certain amount of optical distortion present in the 'patches' they sent. This drawing is not a dimensioned drawing; it apparently was drafted for production of some 'sales' models (??), but is clearly based on some of the original engineering drawings/data for the B-47E; the original drawing was drafted 1Nov56 (I don't know the date for Rev. A, because the images Boeing Archives sent cut off that information).

There are station, water, and buttock lines shown on the 35-1928 drawing, and these are for the full-scale aircraft (according to a note on the drawing). Thus, one can make a reasonably good guess at the distance that fuselage station 'zero' is located forward of the 'physical nose' of the model, which is approximately defined as station 44.5 (Boeing normal engineering practice was to locate fuselage station zero some distance forward of the physical aircraft nose so that configuration changes could be accommodated without having to make changes to other station lines, etc.).

According to several references, the wing sweep angle (at quarter chord) was 35 degrees; this is confirmed fairly well with the copy of the drawing I pasted together (measured 35.25 degrees at quarter chord). The sweep angle of the leading edge (given on the T.O. 1B-47E drawing - 36.63 degrees) is a little off in my drawing - it measures 37.25 degrees; not a big difference, I guess; and who knows where the T.O. writer(s)/illustrator(s) got their data?? Probably the quarter-chord spec is the best reference and building guide.

In any event, after fussing around, and ignoring the small triangular wing trailing edge area at the OML of the fuselage, I got a full-scale MAC of 159 inches using Martin Simon's (4th Edition) geometric method, vs 157.1 inches calculated; this should yield a MAC of about 9.88 on my enlarged copy (of the Boeing drawing), but I measured about 9.73. The MAC is located 309 inches from the aircraft centerline (Simon method) vs 300.2 calculated - maybe due to drawing 'aberrations' ??? The aerodynamic center (per the Simon method) is located at station 631; center of mass is someplace close to this - good enough for a starting point.

Well, this is all sort of boring, I guess, but it does illustrate the problems one runs into when dealing with less than totally-reliable source material.

I've received 2 fans, and will first try to figure out how to put these little buggers together before charging off on the wing. I've got the wing tanks about ready to assemble/finish, and will try to add some photos of at least one of these monsters in the near future.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Voyager2lcats
09-12-2010, 06:15 PM
Dave and Ed, just want to thank you both for your very entertaining and informative posts on the B-47. It is such a pivotal aircraft for the early jet age- allowed Boeing to bet big money on the 707 passenger jet if I recall.;) Thanks again guys.

Bob

Flite-Metal
09-14-2010, 01:51 AM
Dave,

I believe this might be one of the things you were looking for earlier. Note the Bu.No. index.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=135540&stc=1&d=1284425448
Also, here is the sweep angles for the vertical fin and horiz. Stab per the manual.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=135549&stc=1&d=1284427605

Clicking thumbnail below will enlarge so you can copy paste to use.

Capt. Midnight
09-14-2010, 06:37 AM
Hi Ed!

That 'drawing' from the -2 T.O. is the same one I've had from the beginning of my efforts - I'm not convinced it is all that accurate, but have no way to confirm/refute any of the information (I think there are some dimensional errors in the drawing). One of these days I'm going to go to the (Seattle) Museum of Flight and look at their 'hard-copy' of this manual.

My experience with T.O. writers from my Boeing days on military aircraft/missile projects (1951-1991, with time out for USAF service) convinces me that the information is probably generally correct, but in no way could it be considered 'cast in aluminum.' I didn't have any problems with the sweepback angles on the vert. and horiz. stab., but some other references give slightly different angular values - but who cares!!! Also, sweepback angles are generally, but not, I guess, universally referenced to quarter chords. And, at the model sizes we're building, some little difference in angular alignment of the leading edges of these surfaces (vis-a-vis the aircraft) couldn't possibly affect model flight performance. Bottom line is that my empenage is committed in balsa, so I don't care about a little uncertainty in the angular sweep of the vert./horiz. stab. leading edges.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-15-2010, 05:13 PM
Errors in drawings from Boeing and AirAge.

Capt. Midnight
09-16-2010, 05:14 AM
Hi Ed!

Nope, I think the conflicts are between the dimensions given on the drawing from the -2-1 T.O. and the information on the Boeing model drawing (35-1928); you can cross-check some of the dimensions vis-a-vis the station #s on the -1928 drawing if you have time/interest. Since the station, buttock, and water-line values given on the -1928 drawing are supposed to be referenced from the aircraft drawings/data, I tend to accept them over the T.O. dimensions. It's a pity that Boeing Archives can't provide a more accurate dimensioned 3-view of the aircraft, as I just don't know how much faith to put on the model drawing. Not sure this is a big deal; just part of the 'Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle' applied to scratch model building.

I've been plinking along on the #2/3 engine pod, and finally got an inlet and outlet fab'd from an assortment of bits/pieces; photo attached. The inlet is cut down from some kind of 'bottle' I got at my local Tap Plastics outlet. I had to layout the exit cone and fab'd it from 1/64th mahog. sheet wrapped in 0.010 plastic sheet; it seems to be reasonably stiff, and will probably be OK. I'm waiting on arrival of an ESC to crank up one of the fans, so will see what happens.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-16-2010, 08:36 AM
That's what I said, between the last two we found. I suspected this would be the case because of the huge difference in attention
to detail between the two. When I compared the first one below to the Model Airplane News "Planes Worth Modeling" it was virtually
the same so I used it. Note the extra fuel tank support pylon on the M.A.N. drawing. Symmetry is always an assumptive default.

I suspected the general appearance of the second drawing from day one, though I believe the CG to be correct compared to the
location on the Tu-95. The T.O. 1B-47E-2-2 CG declaration is virtually the same as the Tu-95.

I have the two Palo Alto R/C online CG calculators which proved to be quite accurate. When George was CG'n the Tu-95 it turned
out the results were correct. But only after our beating on it for a while. George built a small hand launch glider to test...it proved
to work fine. I had BB Weber's larger Tu-95 to compare to the calculator result. I didn't trust the CG declaration on the plan...only
BB's Tu-95 many successful flights...still the calculator had us going when the CG was behind the wing root. :)

It was only after George's success with the Tu-95 wing flex that I decided to go forward since the Tu-95's a virutal mirror of a B-47.
Ironically, the wing consumes the greatest energy as Sam and I move forward. When the flap is resolved I will send you details. I'll
have that resolve shortly.

Do you agree with the aileron upper surface disclosure observed on the exploded wing view? It appears on the Planes Worth Modeling
drawing... I'm reviewing BAC assembly floor photos looking for an assembled aileron awaiting its installation.

Its 3:21 AM and I suspect that's George...viewing as a guest....Good morning George. Well the B-17 gathering starts today so I will
be down in the trenches for the next three days :)

Capt. Midnight
09-20-2010, 06:11 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Previous attempt to add photo was rejected; don't know why. Will try to add 3 to this post.

All I can say is that the Boeing tool makers must have had bad dreams when they were making the master tools and templates for this aircraft!! The ogives on the engine pods are nightmarish, to say the least!!

I've got the #2/#3 pod sorta well along - top side wasn't too hard, but the lower surfaces are a ... challenge: see photos attached (I hope). Need some wire so I can route the motor wires through the pylon (got the retract wire through OK).

Also got the external wing tanks more/less finished; need to add the struts - later.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
09-26-2010, 06:22 AM
Hi B-47ers!

The #2/#3 engine pod is more/less complete (not finished, of course); still a little cleanup to do, and need to make final decision on securing the fans to the tubes (forward/lower fan arms secured by screws to support structure, but the forward/upper half is a bit more difficult - hate to used adhesive, as I would like to be able to remove the fans); have to figure out some sort of attachment scheme. Gear doors are torque-spring opened; need to figure out a closing scheme. Couple of photos below.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
11-11-2010, 01:22 PM
Dave,

How goes the wonderful world of pylons?

Capt. Midnight
12-02-2010, 02:36 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Sorry for the long 'time-out' - wife's medical tests, T-Day, and other assorted excuses.

I'm not sure whether to throw in the towel on this puppy yet, but will know in the next several days (finally got my 4S1P/5000 LiPo from HobbyKing, a new Hyperion charger (that's really short in the instruction-manual department - especially for us old guys).

I did manage to make several 'all-up' tests of the #2/#3-engine pod using some A123s and other assorted stuff from the battery box; got a not-too-encouraging 2.25-lb thrust (average), but the batt. voltage was not quite what I should get from the LiPo. So, as soon as I get my explosion/thermal-proof container built (next day or 2), I'll charge the LiPo and make some tests.

The pod gear retracts OK, and finally got the thing to function with the long-thin retract strut that kind of angles up from the front of the gear strut. Could not figure out (yet, anyway) how to incorporate the small section of the pod doors that is (in the full-size) fastened to the aft side of the gear strut - later. The doors are opened with small torque springs, and (hopefully) will close with some sort of magic thread that the gear strut contacts.

Have completed the two external wing tanks, but forgot to snap a photo - later. Photo of the #2/#3 pod is below: this is sort of a prototype (70mm fans), and painted to show kind of what it would look like. Haven't sawed off the 'ears' from the 2 fans - will do this if the thrust test is promising. The engine profiles are not per 'spec', but at this stage I'm just interested in the thrust.

More later, and happy holidays to you all!!

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
12-05-2010, 11:55 PM
Hi B-47ers!

Well, I hooked up the 4S1P x 5000 LiPo to the #2/#3 pod (battery powers both fans) and made several tests; test setup shown below.

The results were (avg.) 1.4kg/3.1 lbs; battery start voltage was ca 15.1; end voltage about 14.9. I did not try to measure the power level.

If the other 4 motor/fans gave comparable results, this would yield about 9 lbs total static thrust - and if I could keep the AUW at ca 15-16 lbs, this led sled might get off a hard-surface runway. Will go to the soul-search mode and see if I really want to continue this puppy.

Cheers, and happy holidays,

Dave P.

aatpaandp
12-29-2010, 08:01 AM
Hello Capt. Midnight,

I just found your thread and I am very impressed with the construction of your aircraft. Your cockpit is excellent.

I may have some of the resource information that would assist you in the
planning and design. Your thread shows several contacts with Dave C.
He certainly has a massive amount of material and knowledge about the
airplane and how to construct a scale replica.

Since you were a pilot and may have had some engineering experience the two of us might come close to being on the same page as far as details of
operating the real thing. Unfortunately, I have no hands on experience with
the Stratojet or comparable large aircraft but I would enjoy sharing the insights and references that I possess.

If you are interested send me a message and let me know if there is any
way that I might assist you. Questions, Yes. Correct answers, We will do our best. Answers requiring thought, Those may take a little more time.

Happy Holidays,:D

Mike

Flite-Metal
01-01-2011, 09:14 PM
Dave,

Happy New Year ! ! !

I pray that 2011 is filled with excellent resolution of your family's health challenges.

At 3.1# for each of the inboard pylons and another 1.55# for each of the outboard IMHO you should see excellent results with
an AUW of 15#.

Duration is the issue at hand for both of us. New iron annode technology should give us a 40% gain in capacity with a battery
weight reduction of 25% to 30%. It is not an issue I am forced to address for another couple of months.


http://www.revolectrix.com/images/pl8.fea.jpg


Sam ordered and received one of the Cellpro PowerLab 8's we will use on the 10.2%. With our batteries it takes a pair of these
and a pair of deep cycle marine batteries to get the job done in a timely fashion.

Capt. Midnight
01-02-2011, 06:06 PM
Hi Ed and other B-47ers!

I hope you all had great holidays, and best wishes for a great New Year!!

Ed: thanks for the comment. Progress has been minimal over the holidays, but I've made a little 'dent' in the LH wing, and will post a couple of photos in the next few days. I hope you and your partner(s) continue to make good progress on your model.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
02-02-2011, 05:33 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I haven't given up on this pesky model, but I've come close ... The Fowler flaps (at 1/16-scale) turn out to be ... difficult. In fact, I had to blow the whistle and call for a time out so I could keep from committing suicide. Short of that, I decided to leave the flaps for a while and concentrate on another vexing task - attachment/alignment of the #2/#3 engine pod to the wing substructure.

I had previously (laboriously) cut/sanded the dang ribs for the wings, after aborting an attempt to do the semi-normal stacked-rib sanding approach (the taper in the wing is too great to use that method). After some fussing around, I got the LH wing structure done, and made the abortive attempt at the Fowler flaps; the aileron is no problem.

A week in a rubber-lined room (after trying to get an inboard flap that would approach credibility) finally convinced me to drop that problem for a while, and I concentrated on the pod installation. After much fussing and fuming, I finally got the thing mounted, and I think it's reasonably close to the correct alignment (thrust centerline, etc.). Two 3/16 alum. rods provide the basic load paths, and a couple of 2-inch #8 metal screws secure the pod to the structure. This was all a kind of experiment, as I had not planned very carefully on how this aspect of the model was going to go together. However, I think it will be OK after the wing skin is attached.

I think I've figured out a solution to the inboard flap operation; it will kind of look like a Fowler flap operation, but the flap extension will only be on the order of 1.75 inches - kind of short, but good enough for us old guys.

A few photos are shown below.

Cheers,

Capt. Midnight

Capt. Midnight
02-07-2011, 05:40 AM
Hi B-47ers!

After a mighty struggle, I finally got the inboard flap (LH) to operate - see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNSv4Dltsyo.

Clearly some adjustments in the pushrods and/or servo end point (or servo arm) are required, as the terminal rotation/angle is clearly excessive, but
I'm confident this is doable; and I'll be able to replicate the arrangement for the RH wing.

Have not done any thinking/pondering about the outboard flaps, but they may be amenable to the same approach, though the space is getting very restricted. As noted earlier, no problems with the aileron, but must wait until the #1 engine assembly is built and attached (temporarily) to the wing.

More later.

Cheers,

Capt. Midnight

Capt. Midnight
02-20-2011, 08:36 PM
Hi B-47ers!

I spent another couple of days fussing (and fuming) with the LH outbd flap. After much hammering, sawing, kicking, screaming (maybe an explicative or three), and one puncture wound (poured some CA on it, and had a 2-unit transfusion), I finally got the bloody thing to function with some semblance of realism: see a short video: file:///Users/davidfplummer/Desktop/YouTube%20-%20MVI%201852.webarchive

I do need to make some more adjustments in the outbd flap links, but I'm not going to dump a lot more time into this black-hole operation - got to call it 'good enough' shortly.

More later; cheers,

Capt. Midnight

Flite-Metal
02-21-2011, 03:29 PM
Hi B-47ers!

I spent another couple of days fussing (and fuming) with the LH outbd flap. After much hammering, sawing, kicking, screaming
(maybe an explicative or three), and one puncture wound (poured some CA on it, and had a 2-unit transfusion), I finally got
the bloody thing to function with some semblance of realism: see a short video:
file:///Users/davidfplummer/Desktop/YouTube%20-%20MVI%201852.webarchive

I do need to make some more adjustments in the outbd flap links, but I'm not going to dump a lot more time into this black-hole
operation - got to call it 'good enough' shortly.

More later; cheers,

Capt. Midnight
______________

m-9LfPyVQqk&feature

Dave,

Looks good ! ! ! ! We feel your pain.

Sam worked on the flaps on and off for almost a year before we abandoned the c/f tubing and turned to miniaturizing
the flap hangers. Your challenge is much greater than ours because of your reduced size and resulting lack of room.

I hear what sounds like a servo stalling. Is mechanical travel angle so severe it exceeds an unloaded mid point position
to permit using a three way switch?

Ed

Capt. Midnight
02-21-2011, 07:34 PM
Hi Ed!

Yep - you have good hearing!! I need to adjust the linkages for the outboard flaps, and had to make a temporary link from the servo to the top of the flaps (for the flap 'rotation') as I didn't have a ball joint I needed. But wanted to try the thing out and see how it was working; will fix this problem as I zipped over to the LHS yesterday and got some stuff, so hope I can get things adjusted properly.

I had reworked the inboard flaps a bit and was able to get just a nick under 2 inches of 'extension,' so decided to stop fussing with that.

I'll be interested to see how you guys do with your flaps, as you were certainly correct about this being a very challenging aspect of this model.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
02-21-2011, 07:57 PM
Hi Ed!

Yep - you have good hearing!! I need to adjust the linkages for the outboard flaps,. I had reworked the inboard flaps a bit
and was able to get just a nick under 2 inches of 'extension,' so decided to stop fussing with that.

I'll be interested to see how you guys do with your flaps, as you were certainly correct about this being a very challenging
aspect of this model. Cheers, Dave P.

Dave,

That is why I turned the flap over to Sam so I could rest every once and a while. In the end it looks like we're copying the
1:1 flap shuttle mechanism.

Don't forget you can utilize a programmable servo to move as needed with greater ease than trying to mechanically over
drive the flaps. We plan to mount our flap servos just ahead of the leading edge in the fuselage.

There are two servos, one per wing, driving stable material push-pull rod in sheath as found in a NyRod setup. The sheath
runs an arc just beneath our wing skin (foam core wing) along a wide path to minimize resistance commonly found when
sheath scrubs against inner rod in too tight an arc.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=143699&stc=1&d=1298337016 http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=143709&stc=1&d=1298338621
Each servo sits on the opposite side of fuselage from the flap it moves. This provides the needed vertical room for the servo
to pivot as the long tiller arm swings through its arc. I expect to have the arms of each servo overlapped in the center of
the fuselage when their full up position is achieved.

George sent me a pair of servos he used in the Tu-95. He wanted to show me how to make a "swinging" servo mechanism
to contend with the arc of the tiller arm "length". A long arm will load up on a fixed sheath position if the servo is not
permitted to rise aka pivot as the tiller travels through its arc.

I have a video that illustrates this. Will try to find and post it because the moving servo image defies any attempt at a
written description :)

I know we are more or less preprogrammed for 1/2 and full position flaps. I am probably only going to utilize full flap position
because our flap travels 90% of the flap bay with modified tilt. At 6 degrees incidence it will appear as if is tilted more than
it really is. We'll be at about a 27 degree tilt.

Flite-Metal
03-25-2011, 03:24 PM
Dave,

How goes the 1/16th?

Capt. Midnight
03-25-2011, 11:45 PM
Hi Ed!

I had keyed in a long update, but somehow, in the process of adding the photo, it disappeared.

Suffice it to say that I've made some progress: got the fwd and aft LG installed, and their doors fab'd, installed and hooked up (door actuation is by some micro servos); the retracts are electric powered, similar to the Lados, but not as robust - supposed to be good for AUW of 18 lbs, so they should be OK. Also got the bombbay doors fab'd and installed, but for the present, have decided not to actuate them; they do open/close, of course.

Just today, completed the hookup and test of the elevators and rudder; they seem to work OK, but the displacements are not all that great. No fun making the connections from the servos to the links/arms on the elevators and rudder, but got it done.

Completed the LH wing except for the #1 engine, and will tackle that next. Flaps work OK, but extension is about 0.5 inches short of what they should have - good enough for my skills.

Received my MicroGear from Buz at OSA; he has done the initial programming for me (as he knows I'm incompetent in that department). The MicroGear is used to control the sequencing and timing of the LG and the doors. After some testing, will try to get a video of the gear/doors lowering/retracting.

How are things going with your 1/10th B-47?

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-26-2011, 02:25 AM
Isn't it interesting we perceive a given size to be "perfect" when we start out then as we groom across the creation we
find ourselves being boxed in... :) That was my first thought when I saw your fuselage photo.

At least with George's fuselages at 1/14th~1/5th he molded critical components that opened up the interior permitting
free form placement of everything...easy for me to say. I am sure he would take issue with that if he were to read it... :)

I am actually in the middle of auditing everything to be absolutely sure it all fits when it is CNC milled and CNC hot wired.
More or less planning a 3D puzzle so the truss will intersect with the wing spars, then all sub components fit to form the
proper shapes for wing, etc.

Sam and I have been discussing acquisition of a ShopBot CNC mill table so we can do our own milling. While a first glance
may appear to be an expense, as you consider all the things it can do for us...and others...quickly we see it as a virtual
"0" expense.

We will probably acquire two additional partners to benefit all four and at the same time distribute acquisition cost. There
are many benefits, considering everything that comes along in the "package".

In the present, I have been busy with real world work...a good thing :)

Capt. Midnight
03-27-2011, 09:25 PM
Hi B-47ers!

Attached (I hope) is a short video of the 'lower/retract' sequence on the model. I've used a 'MicroGear module from Oregon Scale Aviation to sequence the doors and retracts; it's an excellent piece of gear!!

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-27-2011, 09:47 PM
B^) Looking but can see....where's my good set of glasses?

Ed

Capt. Midnight
03-27-2011, 10:27 PM
Hi Ed and B-47ers!

Sorry, I just can't seem to get the hang of YouTube's video upload process; see if this works; if not drop me an email and I'll try to send the file attached to the message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJGI7jYdRI0

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
03-30-2011, 02:01 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Here's (I hope) a couple of shots of the model turned right side up - almost ready for a RATO takeoff. The nose-high attitude seems fairly close to my uncertain estimates from the various sources: maybe a cm or so high in the nose, but the rear is within 6-8mm, so it's probably good enough. Will try to find a temporary 'hangar' for the fuselage and return to the LH wing.

More later.

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-31-2011, 02:09 PM
Now that looks GREAT :^) Congrats!

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=145584&d=1301446852

Flite-Metal
04-25-2011, 01:07 AM
Dave,

Its been too long since reading about the 1/16th Stratojet...what's up ?

Capt. Midnight
04-28-2011, 06:48 AM
Hi Ed and other B-47ers!

Sorry to be so long without an update - some kind of problem with my Photoshop program that I need to reduce the file sizes of the photos. I've been trying to complete the LH wing, and am almost there (hopefully some photos attached). Because of the complexity of the bloody wiring, and the limited space, I've written to pres. of Boeing Military to see if they have a version of the B-47 in the archives that will fly with just the LH wing - no reply so far.

Will try to add more description tomorrow.

Cheers,

Dave P.

PS: tried to add more photos, but their file sizes are too large; will try tomorrow if I can figure out what's wrong with Photoshop.

Flite-Metal
04-28-2011, 11:56 AM
Hi Ed and other B-47ers!

Sorry to be so long without an update - some kind of problem with my Photoshop program that I
need to reduce the file sizes of the photos. Dave P. PS: tried to add more photos, but their file
sizes are too large; will try tomorrow if I can figure out what's wrong with Photoshop.

Dave,

When you open PhotoShop and click "new" define the width and length of the image "field". When
you take your digital images go to your camera's pixel image size and select the 800 pixel width or
the closest to 800 pixel.

Importation into PhotoShop can be a two or single step process. For best results its best as a two
step. Create a folder to initially download images to within the computer. Then import the image into
the "new" file frame you created in PhotoShop to receive it.

This method permits you to utilize an arranged work space or virtual desk top onto which to compose
your images for editing with text, sizing, etc. When saving the final image, save "as" to permit space
you created with specs for size, etc to remain for all images you import next or in the future.

You need to name the work space in order to retain specs. The final image output from PhotoShop
should be no larger than 800 pixel width. When images are enlarged in WattFlyer they will appear nice
and large...but not too large.

You are beginning to see why we chose the larger size for our B-47's. There's a lot to fit with little
area to fit it with proper strength. The inboard nacelle alone is an absolute mess at your size. In our
B-47's at 10.2% we have two batteries, outrigger retract, ESC, EDF, and Eagle Tree stuffed in each
nacelle.

How did you attach your pylons to the wing?

Capt. Midnight
04-28-2011, 08:30 PM
Hi Ed and B-47ers!

Ed: the 'Photoshop problem' has been caused by a recent update of my Mac operating system; other Mac users are have the same problem. I'll probably buy an update (PSE 9) as my current version is quite a few years old.

In any event, I was able to squeeze out 2 more photos of the wing; hopefully they're attached.

I'll take some shots of the motor-pod and tank pylon attachments and try to get them in my next update, assuming I can get their file sizes reduced to fit the forum limits.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-29-2011, 01:36 AM
Looks good :) Anxious to see the spar tubes inserted and the two joined to fuselage.

Charge those batteries up and let us hear the screaming? Then you can run your edfs... :)

Capt. Midnight
04-29-2011, 02:22 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I managed to get 2 more photos 'condensed' before PSE4 quit; they are attached.

Each 'pod' has 2 aluminum rods for load paths, and are fastened to the wing structure by 2 large/medium (for the tank) wood screws. My theory is that they might fail, but at least the attachment elements would fail, and not take the wing with them ... hmmm, better check with Boeing stress ...

Will try to get some more photos on the thread, but it is a major hastle; hopefully PSE9 will be here tomorrow and this problem will be solved.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
05-02-2011, 03:08 AM
Hi B-47ers!

OK, here's a quickie of the LH wing: I've kind of closed it up, but can't go all the way until I get the RH wing built, as I need to be able to adjust the support tubes before I epoxy them in place. I've checked all the 'circuits' and all the fans run OK, as well as the flaps, aileron and outrigger retract, so other than the tubes, I could finish it. Now, (UGH!!!) got to bite the bullets and do the RH wing. Will keep any interested bystanders posted.

PS: the small white 'patch' just fwd of the outbd flap is a small 'window' for cooling of the #1 engine motor control; a similar, but a somewhat larger 'patch' will be installed farther inboard for the #2 and #3 engine motor controls - at least the 'grills' are white, like the underside of the wing will be ...

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
05-04-2011, 05:03 PM
Hi B-47ers!

I think I can put the LH wing aside and start on the RH wing - couple of photos attached. The wing tip of the B-47 vintage I'm modeling is a bit unusual - if anyone has any comments on the aero aspects of it, let me know .

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-04-2011, 05:45 PM
Dave,

You never gave a "tip" about which B-47"?" you are replicating. It occassionally sounded like you are replicating the WB/E when a
reference has been made to the one in Seattle.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147894&stc=1&d=1304527336

Note it is flat on top as its shape moves to the rear.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147895&stc=1&d=1304527336

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147896&stc=1&d=1304527336

The light reflection shows clearly the tip top is flat as it moves to its rear.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147897&stc=1&d=1304527336

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147898&stc=1&d=1304527336

Thought I would share these...

Capt. Midnight
05-04-2011, 08:54 PM
Hi Ed!

Thanks for the photos.

I haven't chosen a specific S/N to model, as the aircraft went through so many configuration changes over its life that trying to acquire a consistent information set for one particular series of production aircraft has proved (at least for me) fruitless (I think Goedel's 'Incompleteness Theorem' comes into play here ...). I'll pick out some S/N when I get more/less done; can't see that it makes any difference for amateurs like me except that the main external features ought to be reasonably close to a 'real' aircraft.

I used the B-47 at the (Seattle) Museum of Flight for a sort of general reference. The Museum doesn't have any detailed photo or other information on the aircraft during or after it's 'fix-up.' The aircraft is on loan from the USAF, and no significant effort was made (other than just exterior painting) to bring it to an 'original' or specific configuration. No access to the interior is permitted, but no restrictions on photographing the exterior.

I'm still puzzled about the shape of the tip - and what aerodynamic principles were used to define it.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
05-06-2011, 09:04 PM
Hi B-47ers

Took a crack at the LH wing Ident. light; photo attached; needs some more work, so will try to clean up the blips and zingers.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
05-16-2011, 02:25 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Have made a little progress on the RH wing - see photos, below. A quick 'fit check' with the LH wing shows it is close enough for us amateurs. did have to make a few minor 'corrections' on some of the 'features' ( length of aileron, buttock lines for some of the ribs, etc., but, on balance, it's very close to the LH wing. After a few more 'details' are installed (flaps, etc.) I'll get a photo of the RH and LH wings on the fuselage (quick check of the RH wing on the fuselage showed that it lines up well, and should be within acceptable tolerances for alignment, etc.

More later,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-07-2011, 08:33 PM
Dave,

Are you all skinned up and no where to go? Looking for more...

Ed

Capt. Midnight
06-07-2011, 11:45 PM
Hi Ed!

Well, I wish the wings were all skinned, but tain't so. I did get the RH wing structure pretty much complete; got the flaps to operate properly, and installed a RDS (rotary drive system) actuator for the RH aileron (need to retrofit the LH wing to the same configuration). The RDS components produce a very stiff surface, and give good deflection (haven't measured it yet, but will do so).

Also, after a lot of fussing around, I finally got the #4/#5 engine pod/strut pretty well along. I had not made good notes during construction of the #2/#3 engine pod/strut, so had to do a lot of head scratching to get the RH pod to be more/less identical to the LH pod. Also, I made a number of changes in some of the provisions (I think they are improvements ...), so that slowed down things as well. Now have to add the doors and finish the strut, and hopefully will be ready for the #6 engine (if it ever gets here - don't know what is causing the delay from EJF). The #6 engine is quite simple, so that should go pretty fast.

When I get the engines done, I'll fasten them (temporarily) to the wings and see if I can get a photo of the wings on the fuselage - will post it as soon as I can.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-27-2011, 04:08 PM
Hi Dave,

I hope things are going well, all around...

Capt. Midnight
06-28-2011, 05:11 AM
Hi Ed!

I think I'm stuck on the wrong side of the event horizon: the motor for the #6 engine turned out to be the wrong motor; then the fan housing seemed to have a crack in it (according to the source, it was just a mold line ...). Then we had a few days of good weather (read: no rain), so had to do some deferred maintenance (clean/stain deck, etc.) - now it's raining again.

In any event, got the #4/#5 engine pod more/less done, and am now struggling to complete the RH wing (flap travel is good, but the flap installations are difficult because of the little stuff (skin stiffeners) under the wing skin over the flaps). Got the LH aileron RDS installed in the LH wing, but had to cut a lot of holes in the wing skin to replace the little device I had previously installed.

I'm hoping to have the dang thing far enough along to take it to one of the local electric meets in late July, or, the Gods willing, to my club's scale meet (static display) on 18 July.

I'll try to be more diligent in posting, and will add some more photos.

How are things going with your 1/10th model??

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-28-2011, 01:24 PM
Hi Ed! How are things going with your 1/10th model?? Cheers, Dave P.

Sorry to hear about your #6. Interesting too with a part that small it would be cracked down a mold parting line. Good to read
its about to get out and about...well at least get to taxi in the rain.

1/10th has swollen to 1/8.7 or as I am calling it...1/9th.

Capt. Midnight
08-01-2011, 06:08 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I've been making some progress on the model, but it is approaching the finish asymptote, and that means the first derivative of the velocity vector is approaching zero ... OK, it's very slow.

I've finished the wings, but have not completely 'skinned' them, as I'll have to wait until I've finished fitting the wings to the fuselage 'torque box.' I've about got the LH wing fitted, but it takes multiple trials to get the intersections of the wing surfaces and the fuselage to mate correctly; but I'm almost there.

The two 'rods' that run longitudinally outboard in each wing work just fine, and the center 'spine' of the torquebox area is now fairly well secured to the fuselage center longerons and other structure.

The attached photos show a few views of the wings attached (with the rods) to each other, through the torquebox area.

I've made a layout of the vortex generators (using my plastic, 1/72 model as a guide, since I have no dimensional info on this detail). I'm sure these are essentially the same devices that I installed (on the flightline at Boeing Field) on almost-complete B-52s when I worked in the Template shop (1951-1955), so at least I have some familiarity with these little buggers - I think I need 120 per wing for both rows!!

More later,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-01-2011, 07:06 PM
http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexGenerators72ndLayoutSmllComp.jpg Click for full size.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=151439&stc=1&d=1312222073
http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexGenerators72ndLayoutrimmed.jpg Click for full size.
http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexGenerators72ndLayoutrimmed.jpg
General placement matrix.

Contradiction documentation:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=151441&stc=1&d=1312222825

Photographic documentation showing the angle of placement across the wing. Every other generator is turned GREATER THAN
180 degrees out from adjacent generator. According to the maintenance manual...the vortex airfoil flat is facing the adjacent
generator and at angle per the numbered maintenance manual page shown below.

http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexgeneratorAttachment.jpg Click for full size.

http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexgeneratorAttachment.jpg

http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexPage2.jpg Click For Full Size.

http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexPage2.jpg

Considering the contradiction appears in two different manuals from two production maintenance periods it is probably correct
to assume the GREATER THAN 180 degree out "movidifed open ended V" pattern is correct, along with angle differential shown
above in photo and illustration form.

Dave,

Tha above with what you have gathered should provide a template as good as anyone's for placement of the generators. Are
you using extruded Evergreen Styrene or architectural model wood?

http://www.evergreenscalemodels.com/images/el.jpg

Balsa and bass strip can be glued at right angles to form angle. There are formed angles from balsa and machined balsa angle.
I will be visiting G & G Model Shop in Rice Village here shortly to see if Gus still stocks the small machined soft woods. Delicate
as they are...when coated with epoxy and painted silver they would work well with virtually "0" weight gain. If you have one
of the original format model shops in your town you are fortunate...take a look here:

http://www.gandgmodelshop.com/images/store1a.jpg
http://www.gandgmodelshop.com/images/architecture1a.jpg
http://www.gandgmodelshop.com/images/styrene1a.jpg
http://www.gandgmodelshop.com/images/paints1a.jpg


Gus has ten dims of angled Basswood on the shelf in bins. I know, I'm spoiled and enjoy it <l:^O Basswood 1/32" thickness x ....

http://www.gandgmodelshop.com/images/arch/angles_sm.png

If your LHS is not heavily focused on a wide scale of rail roading, architecture modeling, and other traditional hobby shop items
you can order from Gus...Online! Gus delivers everywhere ! ! !

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Capt. Midnight
08-04-2011, 05:09 PM
Hi B-47ers!

Made a little progress on the LH wing: finally got it fitted to the fuselage, and built a rather long fairing that is held in place by several small magnets; photo showing the fairing below. Since the wing is swept, and the opening into the fuselage has to accommodate the root rib, its a pain in the you-know-what to get an opening that will allow the wing-halves to slide on to their rods, and then mate with the pins on the center 'spine' in the torque box. Anyway, have this done to the 'good-enough' configuration and will now start on the RH wing.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
08-07-2011, 04:24 AM
Hi B-47ers!

In between house maintenance chores, I've made some 'micro progress' on the RH wing installation - photo attached. There are three 5/16th nylon horizontal nut/bolts that attach the wing halves to each other and to the fuselage; I'll add two more 'vertical' bolts in each wing as soon as the RH wing fitting is complete. I'll then attach all the motors to both wings and install the assemblies (with the two rods that extend into the wings) on the fuselage and see if the whole contraption will hang together.

More later.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
08-28-2011, 06:24 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Have had a real struggle getting the fuselage cable runs and a few servos relocated, but think I've got that done (had some servo jitter, and needed to reorient a couple of servos). The big problem was the rear retract developed a failed micro switch; but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the guy at Lander will send me a new circuit board (at least he said he would). With a 'Servo Slo' installed, and using Ch 7 on my Tx, I got the gear and doors to function properly. Now need to connect the wing servos (flaps and ailerons) and make sure they work OK.

Had some minor 'recalculations'/measurements to make (based on the 'as-built configuration') to get a fix on the model wing's aerodynamic center, and a 'starting' CG located, but think that is 'good enough' at this stage. Have trial fit one battery in the fuselage, and need to buy 2 more to get the main power circuits connected and tested.

Finished the RH wing/fuselage fairing (what a bore), and got all the bolts and nuts installed, so can now fasten the wings to the fuselage, and the engines to the wings.

If/when I get the replacement circuit board (or else, a new retract), will take a short video of the gear and gear doors in operation; same with the flaps.

More later,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-28-2011, 02:05 PM
Hi B-47ers! Had some minor 'recalculations'/measurements to make (based on the
'as-built configuration') to get a fix on the model wing's aerodynamic center, and a 'starting' CG located, but think
that is 'good enough' at this stage. Dave P.


To where did you move your CG?

Capt. Midnight
08-28-2011, 06:02 PM
Hi Ed!

As I'm sure you know (better than me) determining a reasonable location for the CG is a bit problematic on this model - partly because of the small triangular wing area at the TE of the wing at the OML of the fuselage. Ignoring that small area, and using a root chord that corresponds to the intersection of the wing TE at the model centerline (BL 0) without that area, the computed aerodynamic center (AC) is about 16.6 inches aft of the leading edge of that root chord; this is from a little program available on the web. In my geometric layout (using the standard approach) on the wing drawing, the AC is a little farther aft of the root chord LE. (I included the little triangular area, so the root chord is longer.)

Since the CG would normally be located a bit aft of the AC (depends on choice of static margin), this resulted in a 'starting'/trial CG about 16-17 inches aft of the LE of the root chord.

Based on the little dimensioned 3-view in Lloyd's book, and noting that fuselage station zero is 44.5 inches forward of the 'nose' (shown in the 3-view), I calculated the AC on the aircraft (E version??) would be at station 625.7. This is reasonably close to the location of the AC on my model, so I think this is good enough for a start. When I get close to the finish line, I'll weigh the whole contraption and see if I can get a longitudinal balance close to the 'guestimate' location.

Will report further progress.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-28-2011, 07:39 PM
What is your wing incidence? You don't want to go too far aft... of the "Boeing" indicated CG. Per The Tu-95's
CG this works out to be the same; both wings are virtually identical. George did glider mock-up tests with this
as the location and it was correct. The glider flew gracefully forward, reached glide apex and stalled forward
evenly.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152386&stc=1&d=1314558156
I have the CG declaration in another Boeing training manual. I'm guessing that is where Lloyd discovered it for
his book. The original includes critical dims in the illustration that Lloyd did not include in his book. According to
Joe Martin porpoising tendency is "built in" unless you drive the B-47 onto the deck. When he pulled up to flare
it immediately stalled and began hopping back and forth between the mains.

The 25% Of MAC CG declaration illustrates the literal distance from the fuselage nose (sans bombsight). This is
48' 5.02". This is proportionally the same as George Maiorana's and BB Weber's Tu-95 Bear CG locations. Both of
the Tu-95's have well over 100 flights on them.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152376&stc=1&d=1314557146

Capt. Midnight
08-28-2011, 10:00 PM
Hi Ed!

The angle of incidence is 2.75 degrees, per a tabulation from T.O. 1B-47B-2; I presume it's the same for the E model. What my 'as-built' value is, I don't know, as I don't have an easy way to measure it; however, I suspect it's close to that value, as that's what's on my drawing.

The AC value from the little computation program is fairly close to what I got by using the conventional graphical/layout technique on my build drawing. Also, the AC station value I get for the 1/100th scale drawing is based on the station value given on that drawing (44.5) for the 'nose', and on the assumption that this is the same station shown on the small 3-view drawing in your post (I have the same drawing): 48 ft 5.2 inches is 581.2 inches aft of the nose; adding the 44.5, I get a station value (for the AC) of 625.7.

Using the 1/100th scale drawing, and the conventional graphical/layout technique, I get a AC station value of about 631, based on the 'short' root chord (not including the small triangular wing area); using the 'long' root chord, the AC moves about 15-20 inches forward (guestimate). So, I guess one has to be reconciled to some uncertainty (ala Heisenberg??) in this location analysis.

I haven't made a 'toss glider' of this model (as I did for my model of the TSR-2); might do that if I get desperate.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-28-2011, 11:30 PM
Sam and I are staying with Boeing drawings.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152391&stc=1&d=1314581504

Capt. Midnight
08-29-2011, 02:38 AM
Hi Ed!

Well, you may have a different drawing than I have, but the 1/100th Boeing drawing I have shows (and is marked with) an angle of 2.75 degrees between the root WCP and WL 200 (WL 200 is more/less coincident with the top surface of the fuselage). The aircraft sits (on the main gear) at approx. 6 degrees with respect to the ground line and a line through the center of the inboard engines; I'm not sure what the relation is between WL 200 and WL 131.5 (the latter being more/less the longitudinal C/L of the aircraft) and the C/L of the inboard engines. In the small drawing, the C/L of the inboard engines seems to be parallel to the wing-root WCP, but who knows. I kind of eyeballed my 'as-built' configuration, and I'd guess my angle of incidence (with respect to WL 200) is about 3 degrees. Not having any better info or references, and no knowledge of the aero performance of the aircraft, I think I'll stick with the as-built condition and the incidence angle shown on the 1/100th drawing.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-29-2011, 01:44 PM
Yes, the 2 degrees 3/4 minute appears to be the wing incidence at the root. That creates an aggregate 8 plus degrees...of drag
in the takeoff roll. Sam said that explains the RATO. We were joking about using compressed air... :^)

At the private airport we are using for testing runway length is not an issue. At Bomber Field it gets skinny with only 700' of runway.
I'll have to feed the two ponies premium Joules.

ROG = http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/6/5/7/65761e9c7ec650ec33b3f3af5f7124fd.png

Flite-Metal
09-04-2011, 06:35 PM
I noticed the absenece of you posting smiles... Remember its a hobby...:) Oh, by the way...I forgot to post a picture of our GC proofing
tool....courtesy of Nabisco.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152590&stc=1&d=1315157934

Have a good Labor Day Weekend !

Capt. Midnight
09-06-2011, 05:08 AM
Hi Ed!

Labor Day was nice, but a wee bit warm for our branch of the planet - mid 80s; supposed to hit 90F this coming weekend.

Have not felt impelled to the smile department as one little problem after another is bugging me: got the new PCB for the aft retract from Lander; installed it and it worked fine. In the next email (from Lander) I learned that they are releasing an 'upgraded' design - much stronger, and (perhaps) more reliable. Oh well - progress ...

Have ordered the other 2 flight batteries, but they won't be here for a week or so. Got most of the wiring straightened out, and have tested the GoSlo device for the flaps - works fine. Completed a couple of access doors in the forward fuselage (for the recvr, electronics batt., and other stuff). Flight batts will go (I hope) in the bombay.

Fussed around with the tail twin-20mm turret - see photos below. I's not finished, but the general appearance, etc., seems to be OK. Will need to put on some more gesso to get a better finish, and will try to get the paint reasonably close. Closed in more of the fuselage, and will get on to attaching the motors to the wings (need to add some detail to the nacelles) after applying the lower-surface white film.

More later,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
09-06-2011, 05:22 AM
Hi Ed!

Forgot to comment on your Shredded-Wheat B-47 - looks like a winner!!

Yep, you might need some RATO at the shorter field ... The 'built-in' angle of attack (ca 8 degrees) seems high, for sure; I suppose the flaps help a bit. In our ITOs during flight training I think we got the nose up about 3-4 degrees (for the T-28 and T-33); no idea what incidence either aircraft had. From further 'research', it appears the incidence for various 'modern' jet aircraft (some multi-engine, some single engine) seems to vary between zero and 5 degrees; but none of the aircraft listed in the tabulation has the 'bicycle-type' LG, so rotation was not a problem

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-06-2011, 01:34 PM
Dave,

Your turret and its radar look good. They've been talking about upgrading their gear since Sam was looking for our outrigger
retract. Back then Horizon touted their 60/90 system would soon be released.... It took another eight months before it saw
the light of day. Their Chinese supplier ran into issues...probably related to cost as inflation finally struck its mark in China.

I am about to find out how successful I am at acquiring stenciling and placards. After a long silence...several of my inquiries
are responding. I'll share resources when I've got authentic resources.

The 8 degree incidence on the runway presents somewhat of a wattage issue... we laughed about compressed air, but maybe
that would not be a bad idea. However the cost of those CO2 cartridges is a bit steep when using 32 of them each takeoff...
Our flaps are more of an area extension than angle of deflection increase...we may have a very fast rollerskate.

Capt. Midnight
09-19-2011, 11:59 PM
Hi B-47ers!

After several days of fussing, I finally finished one row of vortex generators on the LH wing of the model - talk about time consuming ... I've appealed to several of my pals for an alternate approach to making about 30 of the little VTGs at a time (using a wood block to hold the solid plastic rods, then gluing the little vanes on top), but no one has come up with a high-rate mass production technique yet.

I also made a trip to the Seattle Museum of Flight and (with the help of a metal chair from the Museum's outdoor eating area) took a bunch of photos of the VTGs on the Museum's B-47. A fair number of the generators in the forward row on each wing are missing, and there are none in the second/aft row. I've appended a couple of photos of my model wing and the B-47's wing.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-20-2011, 01:41 AM
Excellent Dave ! ! ! ! !

I could not tell for sure, but it looked like you were flattening rod then cutting if free at a proper height. Is that the way you made them?

Capt. Midnight
09-20-2011, 04:31 AM
Hi Ed!

Nope - I made them (not too imaginative, I admit) by cutting pieces of 3/32nd solid plastic rod to about 3/8-inch in length (or so); these were inserted in holes drilled in a wood block (photo below) - later version had 30 holes in it - then glueing the little vanes onto the rod end. I let these set several hours, then I could handle them and place them in the holes "drilled" (actually used a router bit in my Dremel) in the wing. I used a low-wattage soldering iron to pierce the skin of the covering; this helped keep the covering from tearing when I enlarged the holes so the plastic rod would slip in. I secured the little VTGs with some CA stuff that had some sort of 'filler' in it so it wouldn't set up too fast, allowing me to align the pairs with a plastic gage. The whole process was rather time consuming, but I just couldn't figure out a quick way to make the little VTGs. If any one knows a unique source or 'production technique' for these little buggers, please let me know.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
09-20-2011, 08:21 PM
I must say, when it comes to looking real, your turbulators look like the real McCoy. I actually was taken back a bit
by their authentic look. It is much more difficult to achieve at your scale. Setting a jig up to mill pass two sides of
the rod in a fixture would have been as much if not more work than the way you did it.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=151441&stc=1&d=1312222825

Drilling & inserting the rod makes them extremely strong and not apt to pop off as I am sure you feared if they had
been glued to the film.

At nearly twice the size, I think I can make a jig to mill 2/3rds of the rod flat for ours. I too plan to drill and glue to
the wing after it is glassed, primed and Flite-Metal'd. That will be one of, if not "the" last thing I do.

http://www.scaleaero.com/B-47E/VortexgeneratorAttachment.jpg

Flite-Metal
09-22-2011, 01:39 AM
Arizona Jet Rally participant...at least four years ago. I have an inquiry going to the YouTube poster. I will share replies
with details when received. It is powered by four edf in the inboard nacelle...hence the over sized diameters. Obviously
flies very stable, etc. Believe its somewhere around 70" w/s or less. Note white cowboy hat in foreground...that is Ray
Cannon the designer/builder.

Tme0-cfCaFI


http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/22915/453_398.jpeg

You can easily see this XB-47 has huge, non-scale, ailerons. Mr. Ray Cannon builder of the above B-47 is I believe from
the LA area. The scene below certainly appears to be Jack Rabbit lake bed SW of LA. Above image was taken in 2000 or
2001. Mr. Anthony Frackowiak was Ray's pilot and eventually bought it from Ray.

http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/22915/11243_398.jpeg

I received an email from Tony. Will call him tomorrow for flight feedback, etc. Will post details.

Flite-Metal
09-22-2011, 08:39 PM
Dave,

T.O. 1B-47-1 "Location and Application of Exterior Stencils" is the T.O. containing the stencils and placards. I figure
you want to apply dry transfers as I do. I have a copy of this T.O. headed this way. I will convert pages from white
to a transparent background for each.

Flite-Metal
09-26-2011, 09:06 PM
What did that look like on your end? :)

Capt. Midnight
09-27-2011, 12:13 AM
Hi Ed!

If your question refers to the finish on the Museum of Flight's B-47 (at Boeing Field in Seattle), it has been painted in the 'basic' grey and white finish; you can get some feel for the appearance by visiting the Museum's web pages, and from a couple of other sources. It's clear that there is a fair amount of corrosion and deterioration in a number of areas; not sure what the Museum's long-term plan is for the aircraft.

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
10-08-2011, 03:33 PM
Well, well, well...guess what I happened to discover...and in living color no less...:rolleyes:

You might recall I have been beating the dust off of every known archive in my search for stencils and placards. Pima Museum's
B-47 was repainted in the early 2000's and the stenciling is so~so when compared to the T.O. I received from the USAF. Its
not to say they are not usable, it is what it is...but I do not recommend spending that much on an airline ticket to obtain them.

Dave...let me introduce you to some interesting shelves in Boeing's basement archives over in Bellevue, WA.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=153658&stc=1&d=1318085530

I am not so sure the indexes for the archive will have stenciling and placarding as a line item. While I have been turning over
every stone looking for stencil resources I found the above photo from David Parker Brown's syndicated blog. The blog focus
is Boeing Archives in Bellevue, Washington. David Brown's article and photography serve to disclose details of their archive.

Me thinks its time to revisit Mr. Lombardi. What's the chances a former Boeing employee could gain access to these shelves?
Yesterday (Oct. 23, 2011) Dave Brown confirmed he took the above photo and others described in his blog during "guided tour"
of the Boeing archive accompanied by Michael Lombardi in the basement of a building in Bellevue, Washington.

Per the hand applied marker on the lower left of David's photo the books are probably located at vertical stack #23...then
again, only Michael Lombardi will know... ;^)

1). B-47A Volume 2
2). B-47E March AFB, ATO, Drawings Volume 1
3). B-47E Ground Takeoff Volume 3
4). B-47E Flight/Ground Manufacturing in particular.

Information and above photo are courtesy of:

David Parker Brown
Owner: AirlineReporter.com (http://www.airlinereporter.com/)
Syndicated on Reuters (http://commentary.reuters-travel.com/category/airline-reporter/), Seattle PI (http://blog.seattlepi.com/airlinereporter/)@AirlineReporter

Flite-Metal
10-19-2011, 05:00 PM
Dave,

After reviewing T.O. 1B-47-1 I found nothing in it relative to the vortex generator layout pattern. It had cleaner/clearer fuse,
wing, tail station layouts.

Flite-Metal
10-20-2011, 01:51 PM
Dave,

Early this morning I went back to review my resources to see if I was overlooking the vortex socket pattern. Below is the
pattern which seems to match photos. Deflection angle is shown per the T.O. illustration above.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=154082&stc=1&d=1319115514

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=154084&stc=1&d=1319117432

Click PDF file address for larger image.

Flite-Metal
10-21-2011, 10:25 PM
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=154117&stc=1&d=1319232325
If this works to my satisfaction I will return and list explicit products by brand and product barcode identity so you will know
what products work. I will create a test bed to make dry transfers using the above process then apply them to FLite-Metal
photograph the end result so you can be the judge of how good a job the above does.

Capt. Midnight
11-08-2011, 05:23 PM
Hello B-47ers!

Had to take a time out for a variety of home maintenance tasks, and waiting for some photos from the Museum of Flight (they arrived last week). After evaluating all the photos from the MoF, I resumed installation of the vortex generators (VGs). Based on the measurements that the MoF provided me, I concluded that my forward row of generators on the LH wing are about 0.2 inches too far aft, but decided they were close enough for non-government work.

I resumed 'fabrication' of the VGs by squeezing small aluminum tubing in my drill vise; doing both ends of the tube and sawing each one off gives me a pair to install. This is definitely not very exciting, but can't think of another 'fab' technique. Photos below.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
11-18-2011, 07:54 PM
Since you were not happy with those results, what's your resolve? Sam and I are stuck over here in flapland trying to dig our
way out of a weighy issue.

Capt. Midnight
11-19-2011, 02:37 AM
Hi B-47ers!

I tried to post a longer reply, but it got lost in the ether. Suffice it to say that I decided to cut a slot in the leading edge of the LH wing, and used some plastic strip material to make up the two rows of VGs. the VGs were glued to the plastic strips with tweezers - talk about boring!!

I'll insert/glue in the LH rows in the LH wing before going on to the RH wing. After I get the LH rows installed, I'll add some additional photos.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
11-22-2011, 06:04 PM
Hi B-47ers!

I finished the installation of the vortex generators in the LH wing. Had some problems getting the plastic strip with the VGs on it installed and faired into the upper surface of the wing, but I finally had to call it 'good enough.' Will try to improve the installation in the RH wing.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Capt. Midnight
01-15-2012, 06:28 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Sorry for the long delay - holidays and other minor problems.

Just a quickie to send a snap of the fuselage - more/less complete on the LH side - am dreading the time to duplicate this much finish work on the RH side - wish there was a 'copy' function ... The black patches are small sections of low-gloss stick-on vinyl - bit of work figuring out the patterns, but I think they will be OK; I won't stick the pieces on until the RH side is done.

I'll try to post some additional photos of some 'intermediate' construction steps in the next several days.

Cheers, and happy new year!!

Dave P.

Shanksow
01-15-2012, 04:15 PM
Shes looking good! Can't wait to see her out in the daylight all put together.

Capt. Midnight
02-08-2012, 04:53 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Attached (I hope) is a photo of the finished fuselage - actually, I need to add the windshield wipers, attach the canopy glasing, and add a couple of coats of white to the tail end. If the weather holds, I'll put the wings on and get a photo of the whole model, and may try a short taxi.

Stay tuned.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Germanscott
02-18-2012, 04:52 AM
Most impressive build ! The VG's are very intresting !

Bill G
02-18-2012, 06:04 AM
Hello B-47ers!

Had to take a time out for a variety of home maintenance tasks, and waiting for some photos from the Museum of Flight (they arrived last week). After evaluating all the photos from the MoF, I resumed installation of the vortex generators (VGs). Based on the measurements that the MoF provided me, I concluded that my forward row of generators on the LH wing are about 0.2 inches too far aft, but decided they were close enough for non-government work.

I resumed 'fabrication' of the VGs by squeezing small aluminum tubing in my drill vise; doing both ends of the tube and sawing each one off gives me a pair to install. This is definitely not very exciting, but can't think of another 'fab' technique. Photos below.

Cheers,

Dave P.That looks really good Dave. Worth the effort to model such a stand out feature.
Much more work than molding 18 radial cowl blisters, or a few other of the less exiting tasks I've done recently, such as cutting out 36 circular window masks for painting. I'll remember what you've gone through here, the next time I complain about a repetitive task. :eek:

Flite-Metal
03-11-2012, 03:31 PM
David,

Because of your success in making your canopy and its placement I would like to ask for its dims across its multiple width
flaring from the near flat at the rear across to the arc of the fuselage front. I for one realize this was a real challenge that
few can appreciate.

Below is the front fuselage section of the B-47's sectioning. If it is not asking too much, I would like to know how wide and
tall the canopy is at some specific stations. As you can imagine at our scale this will help establish my frame's flare position.

Click For Full Size: http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/FuseFrntStationMstr.jpg

I purchased four canopies, as describe early-on in "In The Beginning" portion of our B-47 thread. These are used in pairs of
identical shapes when cut free from their original forms. This permits me to use one as the basis for the frame and the other
as the clear canopy. They are thin with a flush fit is perfect. I will use carbon fiber to corral the original molded tension.

Our B-47 canopies are derived from E & WB photographs and a card stock B-47. The card stock unwrapped paper doll shape
is relatively accurate to the card stock model, I am editing its dims...which brings me to you as part of my data with which
to edit it.


http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/FuseFrntStationMstr.jpg

Capt. Midnight
03-11-2012, 07:56 PM
Hi Ed!

I'm not sure I can be of much help, but have attached a scan of the canopy plan view from the 1/100th-scale Boeing drawing with some approximate station numbers and dimensions across the base of my canopy plug (photo attached). I made some minor adjustments to the canopy size so that I could get my pilots and other cockpit stuff in after I was well along in the construction. The plan view- and side-view profiles pretty well adhere to the Boeing drawing, however. I made a thin plan-view profile 'outside-edge' bottom frame (1/64th ply) that I attached the canopy frames and other stuff to (hope there's a photo attached), and that was what I attached my rear hinges to. (Undoubtedly you'll have your own method of construction.) After all the dust had settled, and the fuselage was pretty much complete, I then glued my glazing to the lower frame; it took some adjustments, etc., but it came out pretty good.

Let me know if I can provide any more unhelpful help!!

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-11-2012, 08:19 PM
Dave,

Thanks, as you can imagine my copy of the Boeing 100th does not have clear text enough in these areas to read properly.

You have given me exactly what I was looking to acquire as a comparison point by rescaling your dims to mine I can audit
what I am doing. My fuselage to canopy contact is not along a straight line. There is a dog leg in it which comes to an apex
at station 211.

Below is a blue straight line shot below the canopy drawing and its upper edge following the lower canopy edge. The swag
represented by the blue fill is what I will have to cut away for the scale 1:8.7669 canopy.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158063&d=1331494444
Your dims will permit me to edit the two canopy masters I am using to get them to fit the fuselage curve properly after I cut
and add the swag back to what you used on your 1:12th.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=123293&stc=1&d=1268920436

After I plug your dims into what I am working with I can feel better about what we are going to end up with. The paper doll
template is more along your dim shapes so I will end up overlaying your dims to the paper doll then alter the side to include
the dog leg.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158068&stc=1&d=1331495376

That is the unfolded paper doll canopy. I am not using its windshield. Everything else can be edited to proper swag shape.

Flite-Metal
03-11-2012, 08:55 PM
Dave, I am curious about the interior lighting of the B-47. Were there some florescent bulbs in the cockpit? I ask because
of a photo I have that has an exceptional amount of "pure white" light in the image. Its not the warm white I am familiar
with in most warbirds.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158070&stc=1&d=1331496009 http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158100&stc=1&d=1331519015*

I suspect in the right photo above the copilot's sextant is shown attached to the canopy. *Image couresty of Time-Life for
educational purposes.

I ask because with an (AC) alternating current onboard system it would be logical to see florescent used for general lighting.
Photo could have been simply staged with blue/white lighting. I know the normal low level lighting is warm glow, was there a
white light source onboard as well? I also have line art images showing small spot lights in the cockpit which appear to be on
goose neck extentions.

Also, was there a light in the end of the overhead curtain frame? I have another photo showing what looks like a lens cover of
a light squarely in the end of the curtain frame running down center of canopy top.

Capt. Midnight
03-12-2012, 02:30 AM
Hi Ed!

I have no idea of what the light in that photo was supposed to mean - none of the aircraft I flew had any such 'general illumination.' My guess is that the illumination in the photo was just for photographing the guy in the front seat; I notice he doesn't have an O2 mask on.

In the source material I have, there was a kind of 'band' running along the inside, top center of the canopy from front to rear; in the middle of the co-pilot's area there was some sort of fixture attached to the band that permitted the co-pilot to attach a sextant for celestial navigation purposes. However, I don't have any real specific info in this feature, but I did incorporate such 'device' in my model. If you have any contacts with the B-47 Association, I'm sure you could get some info on this. I'll dig through my stuff and see if I can find any info and will post it if I do.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-12-2012, 02:59 AM
Dave,

Thanks for your trip down memory lane. Note, I added a photo of the CP with his sextant overhead. It is the only one I have
of it in its in-use position. The Navigator's is clearly shown in our documentation through no fewer than 6 images. Sextant's
head is I assume the same as the CP's as the only external difference I can tell is in its mounting system.

Its not necessary to dig looking for more. I did not find a reference to the light in the end of the curtain frame. I found image
that looked like a light bezel in the end of the curtain frame that would have been an excellent location for a hooded LED over
the pilot's head shining forward. I may place one within a hidden recess to shine on the pilot's instrument panel.

Thanks for the answers. Its nice to have someone who sat back seat to ask questions of. For example: Was the circuit breaker
control panel in the copilot's station illuminiated? The photo below appears to show it illuminated. I will illuminate ours if it was.
Cream colored micro LEDs will work very well in the panel. Note: There appears to be a large light just to the right of the panel.
Is it possible these larger lights were all turned on when the photo in question was taken?

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158101&stc=1&d=1331520183

Below is a Boeing illustration of the B-47's lighting locations. Thought you might want to use it. These projects are never completed... ;^)

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158091&stc=1&d=1331518101

Capt. Midnight
03-13-2012, 04:37 AM
Hi Ed!

Thanks for the lighting diagram. I had picked up on the lights on the aft tip of the vertical stabilizer, but didn't know about the top/bottom fuselage-mounted lights.

Yes, that does look like a light in the right side of the photo, but I can't believe either the pilot or co-pilot would use such a light (during night flying) - it would have some effect on your night vision, and would otherwise be a big nuisance.

Having never flown in a B-47, I don't know what sort of provisions they had for 'flood-type' lighting in the various crew positions, but we did not have any such lighting on the (early-model) B-52s that I had some training in. In the C-45, for example, if the co-pilot needed to find a switch in the cockpit (and didn't know the location from memory), you used a flashlight; there were no 'flood-type' lights in the cockpits of the C-47s, T-28As and T-33s that I flew.

Could be a good question for the B-47 Association gang.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
03-13-2012, 04:10 PM
Dave,

Sorry, I thought you flew co-pilot in the B-47 before moving to the B-52's. Below, I circle the end of the curtain frame
showing the suspecious "bezel" shape I suspected being a light in the frame's flat end. As you can see it looks exactly
like a flashlight like reflector with a light bulb in the center.

I am amazed with as many eyes as we have reviewing our posts on the B-47 we don't have one person who knows....
or has additional resource to take use further down the rabbit hole....fellow brother of Allice... ;^) Research is a B'!

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158152&stc=1&d=1331651231

Flite-Metal
03-13-2012, 04:24 PM
I think I just found a partial answer in the canopy type illustration. The curtain frame is different between the
sliding and clam-shell canopies. On the clam-shell the frame is a full length canopy frame component, not just
a curtain support.

Without this oblique point of view the canopy differences were not clearly shown. At the point where they began
"manufacturing" E's instead of only the B to E conversions the in-service "E's" must have been a mix of both styles.
I need to dig in my docs to be sure Sam and I have proper frames on our B & WB by BuNo cross checking.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158153&stc=1&d=1331651984

Note: CP's sextant mount in canopy is clearly shown in the clamshell canopy config. Also, the canopy's dog leg is clearly
shown in the bottom artist rendering. This is what I illustrated in blue. Because the canopy and cockpit area is always
an eye magnet I have to make sure everything in this area which appears in photos and line art as an except is replicated.

This illustration "implies" the clamshell plexiglass canopy was a left and right hand half instead of a single piece... Will go to
the B47Assn to see if I can get an answer. Maybe this is somehting the SAC museum's tech can answer since he has much
more recent hands on experience... ;^)

P.S. I sent an email to Jim Diamond over at the B-47 Assn. yesterday. Jim is a subscriber to my thread and I suspect yours
as well since he is the point of the b-47 Assn. spear. This discussion has led to helping me wade through my collected data.
As you can image at this point it takes a while even after I have collapsed it three times by subject.

Flite-Metal
04-20-2012, 02:53 PM
Dave,

Its been since March 12th that we last had a report. Thought you would have a taxi report since you
were virtually finished with the airframe.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=157077&d=1328676667

Capt. Midnight
04-20-2012, 06:57 PM
Hi Ed and other B-47ers!

Well, my plan was to be well along with the taxi tests by this time ... unfortunately, I experienced 2 unexplained failures: during testing of the LH wing motor/fans, the #1 motor control failed (read: failed to survive smoke test ...). I had provided access and cooling provisions for the MCs, but did not plan very well for wiring replacement. The result was a couple of openings in the lower surface of the wing; after some mighty tugging and pulling, I finally got the new MC installed and its wires hooked up. Subsequent tests on the LH wing were then completed.

I thought I was half-way there, but during testing of the RH wing, the #5 rotor experienced a blade failure - have no explanation why, as all previous tests (during construction/finishing) were OK. So had to order a new rotor, and hope it will be here today or tomorrow. Will then finish the tests on the RH wing, and, if all goes well, will put the wings on the fuselage and try a taxi test; will try to get some video.

I'm still looking for the guy who got me started on this contraption - he better have his anti-raygun suit on ...

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
04-22-2012, 12:04 AM
Dave,

Sorry you have run aground! Interesting failure...one I would not have anticipated. Blade failure is
something I would not have expected you to have. Are they Styrene blades or glass re-enforced
nylon?

Reminds me of Kress's issues back in the mid 80's until Bob changed his mold to permit interlocking
blades to lock in place instead of trying to mold the blade set over a fender washer. Fender washer
had to cool down enough before extracting from the mold or blade would warp. Bob acquired molds
from an engineer at Teledyne who went belly up.

Bob's Styrene blade set were fabulous with OS .25's ~ HP.20's until you encountered a flea, gnat, or
other FOD. I imagine if Bob were still with us we would be enjoying EDF versions in smaller airframes.

Capt. Midnight
04-22-2012, 02:35 AM
Hi Ed!

Yep, the blade failure sure surprised me, too!! The fan is a HET 6904 unit, and I am not sure I know exactly how it is fabricated. The blade failed right along the rotor, so just don't know what caused it. I'm sure I was not overspeeding/overpowering the fan, as the failure occurred during throttle 'runup.' The new rotor didn't arrive today, but hopefully it will be here next Monday/Tuesday, so will resume testing.

Cheers,

Grumpy Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-04-2012, 11:46 PM
Dave,

Thought of you when I saw this again today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tme0-cfCaFI

Capt. Midnight
05-05-2012, 08:51 PM
Hi Ed and other B-47ers!

Ed: thanks for the nice video - looks like a very nice model.

Nope, no taxi yet - got the replacement rotor middle of last week, but have had house maintenance stuff to keep me away from the work bench. I did manage to complete the reworked intakes for the #2 & #3 engines: when the rotor failed, I decided to recheck my inlets and found that they were just a bit larger than I had calculated, so added some rubber tubing around each lip and then smoothed out the interior of the intakes; my rework got the inlets to within a mm or so of my calculated value. Photo of the almost complete #2/#3 inlets (needs a little more paint) is shown below. (The 'nose cones' are just for static display; didn't even think of trying to install them on a permanent basis.)

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-23-2012, 09:13 PM
Well, its close to a month without a word...

Capt. Midnight
05-24-2012, 05:07 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Unlike Ed, my other half demands that I spend some time keeping the house from falling into ruin; this results is unscheduled 'timeouts' to paint the kitchen; stain the railings around the decks (still have one section to complete because of rain); meet with flooring contractor (new floor in kitchen); help daughter move; pester city hall on their ill-advised adventures; and a couple of other little items.

Still, I finally received some aluminum lacquer spray paint (the Tamiya stuff is still not available), so was able to refinish the inlets (see attached) following the fan failure and the MC smoke-out. I did reinstall the rotor, tested the fan (seems OK), and am now praying to the rain gods to stop so I can try a taxi test.

Got the lawn mowed this afternoon in between rain showers, and have appealed to the director for some relief from the 'chores' - she exhibited no sympathy whatsoever, but agreed that I could have one B-47-day next week.

Cheers,

Tired Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-24-2012, 02:18 PM
Dave,

Sorry to see your honey do's were delayed by the excessive dew your region has been
experiencing this spring. I thought the heavy rain was a winter event. Atleast everytime
I land in Seattle during the winter its either snowing huge flakes while in landing approach
or the daily street cleaning down pour greets me.

Sounds like an episode of Home Makeover with all the ripping up and hammering going on.
Though we live on the Gulf coast, it does not rain as much here. In other words, things
don't rot out as rapidly as they do up there unless they are cedar or red wood.

I am reminded of the commercial for deck sealant where they are at Niagra Falls. You had
it much more difficult than they because their deck was assembled and coated in doors
then erected at the falls. You have to wait for dry spells long enough to do a redeaux...

By the way, did you coat your balsa to prevent warping and mildew accumulation? :)
http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE3-9752311reg.jpg

Capt. Midnight
05-24-2012, 06:25 PM
Hi Ed!

I did apply a thinned coat of lacquer sanding sealer to my basic structure, and to some other areas of the 1/16th sheet covering. I got into this approach when I was building flying boat models, but never thought about mildew.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-24-2012, 06:40 PM
I know how it can get down here in Houston with heat, humidity, and rain fall. We are at something
like 23" so far for 2012. I can imagine you would probably be at three if not four times that this year
thus far.

Capt. Midnight
05-26-2012, 05:08 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Well, I got the bloody thing mechanically together today (see attached). In the process of putting the wings on, I found I had to make a couple of minor cut and file adjustments to allow the LH wing to be attached to the fuselage and (the the rods and bolts) to the RH wing. I was puzzled about these little 'interference' problems, as I had done this quite a number of times before, and everything seemed to fit OK. Oh well, no big deal.

The big surprise was that I need heavier springs in my main LG retracts - with the model assembled, but sans batteries, the 'oleos' bottomed out when I sat the whole contraption on the garage floor. Also, the struts of the outriggers are a bit too long, but I can't be sure how much until I get some stiffer springs in the main-gear retracts.

So, I'm trying to figure out where I'm going to get some stiffer springs, and will install them, then deal with the outrigger struts (if they still seem to be too long).

I've charged up the 3 batteries, and think they'll be OK for a couple of days while I sort out the spring/strut-length problem; if not, I'll just have to pump 'em up again.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
05-26-2012, 03:33 PM
Hi Dave,

Looking fabulous. It was in fact the ever changing dims on a built-up structure in high
humidity areas...that I was focused on when I joked with a comment about Kilz and a
mildew preventative.

The larger the airframe, the greater the effect of humidity if severe angles, narrow and
long airframe components, and close fitting this or that are in a design. I discussed this
issue with Sam this week. We have a worse case example we learned from over the last
eight years with BB Weber's Tu-95 hanging at our field.

http://www.bomberfieldusa.com/PRE/bbweber8.jpg

BB Weber's Tu-95 Bear's parting point is at the model's CG immediately behind the wing.
It is stored in BB's quanset hut work shop and storage at Bomber Field used during events
for participant overnight storage and charging. Tu-95 hangs overhead at the center when
not being flown.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=160278&stc=1&d=1338039572

This resulted in the fuselage's two halves which were sleeved for a slip fit began to droop
so badly the fuselage had to be repaired because it was not snug and resulted in "issues"
when assembled...:blah:

If I may make a suggestion for how you might store your 47 it would be best to suspend
the fuselage sans the wings using a hammock style sling to support the length to evenly
distribute the stress...:D

I am going to make plywood templates to attach to each fusleage parting point. These
have a small amount of space between each section.

richardreynolds@cox.net
06-07-2012, 02:51 AM
Dave,

As posted on Ed Clayman's site on 02/09/2012, I am resuming my 1/12 scale B-47 project I started in 1954 when I was 13. I now have a lot more technical skills (BSME and 29 years in shipbuilding) and a lot more resources. In 1954, I had neither a control system nor a propulsion system.

Ed has provided me his 8 gigs of data and I am developing my own 3D product model.

Using the "B-47 Structural Index2.jpg" file which is identified as the fuselage "Centerline Diagram and Structural Breaks HDLE Locations" I have extracted all the fuselage station locations and most of the upper fuselage radii (aft of STA 316.5) and some key lower fuselage dimensions.

In the upper left portion of the drawing under the section cut "A-5", the drawing references 3 source drawings:

Boeing Airplane Co Drawings:
Nose Lines 4-2117
Body Lines 12-2201
Canopy Lines ?

Do you have these drawings or know where to obtain them?

Thanks in advance and I am looking for a successful flight of your 1/16 model.

Richard Reynolds
Norfolk VA

Capt. Midnight
06-07-2012, 06:12 AM
Hi Richard!

Sorry, I have no idea where you could obtain such drawings. In all the years I worked for Boeing, I seem to recall that there was a schema for assigning drawing numbers, but I don't have any idea what the origin is of the drawing number sequences you've listed. Perhaps Ed Clayman can help you; or you could try the Boeing Archives Office.

(FYI: the few Boeing B-47 drawings I have bear drawing numbers 35-1928 for a 1/100th-scale 'sales' model of the B-47E; this drawing refers to drawing 50-4786 for 'model details'. I also have a 1/10th scale drawing of the equipment layout in the B-47B fuselage; it's number is 5-32747. So the drawing numbers do vary quite a lot.)

I've attached a couple of photos of my model that's still undergoing 'construction' - hope to start some taxi tests soon.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-07-2012, 02:05 PM
Nose Lines 4-2117
Body Lines 12-2201
Canopy Lines ?

I have these I believe...as you should as well Richard. I will look after breakfast... today is starting slowly.
Well, as we sadly discovered...no I do not except for that which I sent on the thumb drive. The erection
manual you purchased is apparently one of the formerly restricted documents... ;^)

Flite-Metal
06-12-2012, 03:28 AM
Dave,

Do you want the stencils and placard T.O. so you can make your own dry transfers?

I discovered why all wings appear smoother than usual with minimum rivet divot. I
knew they would not be applying paint that thick so T.O. 1B-47E-2-2 answered it.
This explains color differentials on wing.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=160671&stc=1&d=1339468044
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=160672&stc=1&d=1339468932

Capt. Midnight
06-12-2012, 04:26 AM
Hi Ed!

Thanks for the offer, but I'm not going to put any more 'signs' on my model. At present, I'm trying to get the problem of the 'removable' wings resolved; I'm almost there, I think. I've got the outrigger struts and wheels resolved, but am still having problems with my 'rod and tube' supports for the wings (caused by my 'minor' construction problem with the LH wing, that resulted in it being a bit too low at the tip). However, I think I've resolved that issue and am presently finishing up the outrigger struts, and hope to make a taxi trial tomorrow or Wednesday. I had to purchase some heavier springs for my main-gear struts; got them installed, and now just need to reassemble the hangar queen.

Will try to post some photos in the next day or so.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-12-2012, 06:18 AM
Signs?

Capt. Midnight
06-13-2012, 10:04 PM
Hi B-47ers!

After some heroic rework to the rod-in-tube wing supports, and a quick charge on the batteries, I managed to do a B-47-on-a-leash taxi test this afternoon. I had only installed 2 of the 3 LiPos (they operate the #2,3,4&5 motors), but every thing in the 'propulsion' department seemed to behave satisfactorily. The asphalt in our cul-de-sac is quite rough, and slopes 'down' so just followed the model around for a short time to test the outriggers and the nose-gear steering; everything seems OK. I'll add the 3rd battery and try another 'walk-around' in the next day or two; I'll also connect the flaps and other items and see if I can get a little video.

Cheers,

Dave P.

richardreynolds@cox.net
06-14-2012, 02:19 AM
Very nice looking model. Can you post "specs" soon, i.e. weight, EDF manufacture & size, battery size?

Capt. Midnight
06-14-2012, 05:15 AM
Hi Richard!

Not sure if this will work, but will try to post a 'model description' pdf on the model; if it won't attach, drop me an email at pdf3@comcast.net and I'll send it along. (PS: I forgot to identify the electric retracts, but will do so in the next iteration of the description.)

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-22-2012, 11:07 PM
Dave,

Taken your B-47 for a walk lately?

Capt. Midnight
06-23-2012, 03:55 AM
Hi Ed!

Nope, am presently going through a weight/balance evaluation.

How are you 'big-timers' doing with your model? When do you expect to take your B-47 for a 'walk'??

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-23-2012, 02:41 PM
"big timers" ? ?

Our's are larger but not any more challenging, nor complicated, than your B-47. In so many ways yours
and Richard's are much more difficult due their smaller size. I think this should be apparent to everyone
paying attention to your project. I have to admit it is difficult to maintain an auditing routine. Seems to
be two steps forward then one step back sometimes.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=160861&stc=1&d=1340461942
Max Volts: 22.2v - 6s, RPM/V: 1750, Motor Size: 3553,
Max Amps: 63a, Max Power: 1500watt, Shaft diameter: 5.0mm,
Blades: 6, EDF Size: 90mm, Weight: 317g (11oz.), Thrust: 98.77oz.,
Connectors: 4mm Bullet Plug

Yesterday I ordered a pair of Hobby King's HK30281/14788 90mm EDF unit with 3553-1750kv motor for
my outboard nacelles. These are just a wee over 4" dia. and will fit in the 5" cross section of outboard
nacelles. Each 90mm has 5#~6# thrust confirmed by customer review. I have to have edf in outboards
to not fall into gray area of rules. Might as well tug on the wing a little more on each side.

Currently finishing up four section truss to email to Bob for laser cutting.

How's the w/b distribution going? Hope you are able to simply move some things fore~aft and not have
to add...better yet, be able to remove weight...period.

I have meant to ask this before. Is the fuselage panel over the wing intersect a removable one for you
to deal with a similar future issue to the one you just had with alignment instead of having to cut into
the backbone? Sure glad to see you get that square'd away. Reminded me of what Sam went through
with the carbon fiber tubes he attempted to use in our first flap drive mechanism.

Looking forward to viewing your taxi. Even a fast taxi with just a momentary ROG with immediate touch
back down will be in order. I assume you were going to do a minimum ROG anyway... :^) After all when
they went to the moon they did it in small steps... :^)

Capt. Midnight
06-24-2012, 05:34 AM
Hi B-47ers!

Ed: your #1 and #6 engines look like winners - amazed that you can add these puppies to your model, but the 'data' sure looks good.

I spent some time today trying to balance the model at the 'CG' that I had calculated (see photo #2; the CG location is approx. at station 631). After some frustration with positioning of the 3 'main batteries', I concluded it was necessary to move the rcvr battery a fair distance aft, and so disassembled the model and got the fuselage set up on the workbench for the operation. This appears to provide the necessary mass toward the aft end, and I think the starting balance location is reasonable as far as I can determine.

Regarding your (Ed's) question on the cavity in the fuselage for the wing joining, I had done some layouts to evaluate the movement of the wing root sections into the fuselage and thought I had this figured out. For the most part, my layouts worked out OK, but I hadn't really considered how the wing rods were going to constrain the movement of the wing root sections as they entered the fuselage cavity. Anyway, with some 'adjustments' (some cutting and sanding), and with the use of more flexible rods inside the wing tubes, I was able to get the bloody thing together. I hope the photos will illustrate this a bit, but it would take a short novel to explain all the adjustments, etc., and no need to bore you with them.

There are rather small covers on each side of the wing cavities that mate with the fuselage and the wing surfaces; these are just 1/16th balsa formed in the 'damp' condition, then epoxied to make them stiff; small magnets hold them in position; they cover the exposed wing and fuselage areas where the wings and fuselage are joined. Three 5/16th nylon bolts pass through the wing roots and the fuselage center plane; two additional nylon bolts on each side secure the wing for vertical loads. There are two wood dowels in the fuselage center plane, one fore, one aft; these index the wing root ribs to the center plane and to each other; they are visible in the photos.

Not sure all this is crystal clear, but hope this description and the photos provide some illumination.

After i get the rcvr. battery relocated, I'll try another taxi test.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Dave

I have a question relative to the angle or plane of the back-bone when you balanced at Boeing's CG declaration.

Is the fuselage backbone perfectly level or is it as it appears in your photo at a nose high attitude?

Capt. Midnight
06-24-2012, 05:42 PM
Hi Ed!

Oooooopps! I should have clarified that the first photo in the foregoing post was just to illustrate my 'technique' for balancing the model; the model was actually sitting on the forward landing gear and on the rear foam cradle in that photo, not suspended from the rafter in my garage.

I didn't make any measurements, but after moving the receiver battery to various positions (and keeping the 'hook' at about station 631), water line 200, which is the top of the fuselage at BL 0, was 'level' as far as I could tell. The garage floor slopes from rear to front, so the doors I used to support the model during my assembly and balancing efforts were more/less parallel to the floor (they were sitting on a card table).

After I get the rcvr battery installed, I'll recheck the fore/aft balance and try to get some sort of verification of the level condition.

I didn't have any Boeing info on CG location, so went through the usual stuff of determining the aerodynamic center geometrically (from my wing drawings); and used one of the CG-locator programs from the net as check; they gave substantially the same location for the CG.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
06-24-2012, 05:56 PM
I asked because the Boeing CG declaration is virtually identical to the Tu-95 CG location. This confirmed
with George Maiorana's Tu-95 contra-rotating "ampbomber". The B-47 being a lot more critical to the CG
as it suffers from the inline bicycle mains design which mandates a virtual lift off instead of what is usually
a lot less consequencial ROG.

Did you ever resolve your CG issue? Where did you end up identifying where it was on your model? Was it
any different than the Boeing declaration found on multiple drawings in the T.O.s?

How did that fast taxi go for you? I assume that is why you are triple checking your CG.

richardreynolds@cox.net
07-07-2012, 08:01 PM
Dave, Ed asked me to send this to you.

I obtained the first attachment (B-47B Aerodynamic Three View) from the Kansas Aviation Museum last week. I am getting a better copy made.

The CG should be 14% - 32% of the Wing MAC, The 25% Wing MAC is located at the Body (Fuselage) STA 623.7.

The Wing MAC has a chord length of 155.9 inches and leading edge of the Wing MAC is located at Body STA 584.8, BL 300.62 The Apex of the Wing LE is at Body STA 361.4.

See the attacments.

Capt. Midnight
07-08-2012, 05:04 AM
Hi Richard!

Thanks for the input; however, it doesn't help resolve the mystery.

According to the 1/10th-scale Boeing drawing 35-1928, Rev. A (copy; probably early 1956) I have, fuselage station zero is 44.5 inches forward of the 'nose' (it isn't clear exactly where the 'nose' is, but it's more/less along the locus of points just behind the optical bomb sight cover).

Based on a drawing in T.O. 1B-47E-2-1, the 25% MAC is located at station 625.7; from (apparently) the same drawing, the 25% MAC is located 262.3 inches aft of the root LE at BL zero; this would put the 25% MAC 16.4 inches aft of the same location on my 1/16th scale model (the CG value from one of the CG 'calculators' is 17.37 aft of the root LE at BL zero, assuming a 'low efficiency' horiz. stab and a 13 % static margin).

For comparison, Boeing drawing 5-32747 (a 1/10th-scale profile drawing of the fuselage for the B-47B), gives an estimate of station 395 for the LE of the the root at BL zero. In comparison, the same location (estimated) from the drawing in T.O. 1-B47E-2-1 is station 380.

There may be other sources of dimensional data for the airplane, but I don't have them. So trying to resolve this location problem is something of a puzzle.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-08-2012, 03:17 PM
I know you are looking for an exact answer without any strings attached, however the answer I
resolved back when George's Tu-95 ROG'd was enough to show me I could successfully build and
fly a scale B-47.

The Tu-95 is a mirror image of the B-47's plane-form. What little differentials there are could simply
be resolved as minimum. I reviewed these facts within my thread back some time ago.

I know this is one of those personal satisfaction issues accompanying this hobby. After all, until I
saw George's ROG...I was continuing to look for that 1% more than the positive data I already had
collected.

With the length of the relative CG and the preference for the takoff and landing to be level with a
simple rise from mother earth, I am satisfied with what I had resolved with George's video, B.B.
Weber's Tu-95, and all the other CG calculations that brought me back to the same "relative" CG
location.

Don't put yourself through too much self imposed pressure. One thing's for sure, take it to your
flield for fast taxi...;) When it lifts, maintain a foot or so high then set it down before you run
out of runway... :)

richardreynolds@cox.net
07-08-2012, 07:44 PM
Dave, in reviewing my T.O's and the drawings I got in Wichita, I have four sources for the Wing LE Apex being located at Body STA 361.4. The Wing 25% MAC is located 262.36 inches (21'-10.36") aft of the Wing LE Apex or Body STA 623.7.

I have found some inconsistencies on the 1/100 scale drawing, BAC Dwg 35-1928.

PS Thank you for sending me your B-47E Model Description. If you drew your LE with a sweepback of 35 deg versus 36.6 deg, that would account for 25% MAC moving forward approximately 13 inches at full scale or 0.81 inches at 1/16 scale. The 25% chord is sweepback at 35.0 deg.

Regardless of dimensions for the full size B-47, find the MAC for your as built wing. The CG should be 25% of the Wing MAC.

See attached drawings.

Flite-Metal
07-09-2012, 01:51 AM
Root Chord is measured at center of fuselage...
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=154306&stc=1&d=1319765323

Capt. Midnight
07-09-2012, 05:07 AM
Hi Richard and Ed!

If anyone can make sense out of the many source documents for the B-47, I'll send 'em a bottle of Krug ... or a good cognac!!

Richard: thanks for your drawings - I noted that they seem to be for the B-47X/B, but I don't suppose most of the dimensional information would have changed for the E model. However, my recollections from my X/YB-52, and the early A-D models (when I worked for Boeing) leaves me with some uncertainty on this issue.

Ed: yep, I know where the 'root' chord is measured - never had a problem with that. I think my as-built root airfoil is a bit larger than 1/16th scale, but I don't think that's a problem; I think my MAC is also a bit larger than a 1/16th exact scale; again, I don't think that's a big problem: my LE sweep angle is a bit less than the aircraft, which accounts for the slightly longer MAC. As for the incidence angle of the the root chord, I think I'm pretty close on that. Also, I'm not looking for 'perfection' - scratch building is susceptible to some uncertainties - especially when confronted by the mixed-bag of references/sources for the aircraft such as confronts one on the B-47.

If I ever get the model to a closed SAC-base runway (or the Salt Flats), I think I'll be OK.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
07-09-2012, 01:56 PM
Dave,

I had posted that image previously within my thread and thought it might provide you
a little comfort in that it confirms T.O. data Richard provided. The reduction in sweep
angle is going to do nothing but contribute to an earlier ROG, and as you stated a longer
chord element for MAC if the air foil is longer. I don't see it anything but "better", not a
worse than when compared to the Tu-95's ROG.

This is the same point every scratch project comes to unless a scale profile glider is
created replicating your wing sweep angle...and CG location. Size of the glider does not
matter. Materials are scrap balsa...3/16th or thicker...and flat. You simply release it, do
not throw it. That is a chin tyne which is present on the Tu-95. All proportions are scale,
including the vertical fin size.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=161255&stc=1&d=1341839195

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=161257&stc=1&d=1341839582

I discussed Tu-95 CG with BB Weber as a tie breaker between two different programs
George and I had used to calculate CG, coming up with less confidence than we had
when entering data... ;^)

BB's Tu-95:

http://www.bomberfieldusa.com/images/tu95/bbweber8.jpg

The answer placed the center of CG on the fuselage just a hairs width behind the root. :)

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=161258&stc=1&d=1341839870

George's Tu-95 upside down with batteries being laid out for placement to maintain CG.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=161260&stc=1&d=1341840064

As I have stated before, when the Tu-95 landed, I knew my B-47 could be flown with
only one concern, the landing approach with its mandated level attitude touch down
without a traditional flair. I am fortunate that I have a private airport to use for our
initial flights and to dial in on my landing approach~touch down.

There has to be Boeing property where you can do your initial flights to dial it all in. I
know Boeing constructed a field explicity for the SAE Lift Competition conducted in
Seattle approximately ten years ago. That event could not have gone unnoticed or
unannounced within the Seattle AMA club community. The site of the field could be
at any one of the Boeing locations. I know details because my team scale partner is
Rice University's team mentor.

Thought I would post Tu-95's relative size to your B-47.

Dave Pinegar standing with George's Tu-95.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=161264&stc=1&d=1341845796

You, walking your B-47.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=160698&d=1339621288

Capt. Midnight
08-05-2012, 07:48 PM
Hi B-47ers!

The model is about 99.9% done - photo below. All I need now is a pilot and a runway. Unfortunately, the runway/taxiway at the Navy's OLF (outlying landing field) on Whidbey Island has had a recent change in access provisions; the result is that the OLF facility (used by the Whidbey Island RC club) can now only be used by members that have 'base-access' stickers; other club members can fly there but must be accompanied at all times by a member who has 'base-access' privileges. So my effort now is to find another hard-surface runway in the greater Puget Sound area. If I find one, I'll post some info on any flight attempt.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-05-2012, 08:47 PM
Full size SEA Sectional: (Yes, its larger than the thumbnailed image...) Paved Private Airport MECCA...
http://www.megascenery.com/images/vol4/Seattle_Sectional_front.jpg

Abandoned and little known airfields in Washington, State...by region...
http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA.htm

Washington, Central (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA_C.html)
Updated 11/20/11
Washington, Seattle area (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA_Seattle.htm)
Updated 11/18/11
Washington, Eastern (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA_E.htm)
Updated 4/12/12
Washington, Southwestern (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA_SW.html)
Updated 6/23/12
Washington, Northwestern (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA_NW.htm)
Updated 6/16/11
Washington: Tacoma area (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA_Tacoma.html)
Updated 8/1/11

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=161764&stc=1&d=1344196731

Flite-Metal
08-05-2012, 09:34 PM
I have a former next door neighbor living in Oak Harbor... This former USN amphib base still stands as you see it... :)

The marina on the west side of the neck is owned by the city of Oak Harbor.

Call these guys... http://www.pbyma.org/index.html as they want to build a hangar for their museum on the ramp...and might
want to use your model in one of their money raising activities. I spoke to William Stein, director of the PBY museum located
just out of the picture below. He says the ramp is concrete and it has nothing on it... :)

I could help you with the Exchange if it was AFFES (USAF and US Army) but this one is NEX (USMC and Navy). My daughter
is a producer/director for AFFES. Still, its worth following up with William Stein to see if he could help you. He was interested
in what you wanted to do...

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/OakHarbor_WA_03.jpg

Capt. Midnight
08-05-2012, 10:15 PM
Hi Ed!

Thanks for the inputs - I had previously visited the same sites, and scanned most of the airfields - most are no longer in existence, or not suitable for RC model flying; haven't reviewed all the sites, but will finish up today.

Nice shot of the amphibian site at NAS Whidbey - gives me the idea of putting my B-47 on floats ...

How is your construction going on your model?

Cheers,

Dave P.

Flite-Metal
08-05-2012, 10:34 PM
I spoke to William and he said to call back... http://www.pbyma.org/index.html

As for B-47, we took a break and doing something with the 90mm to see how they do the deed while
waiting for the XPS Dynamax motors and the outrigger retracts to arrive...supposedly within 30 days.

Will post the side track when its finished, not before. Maybe in a month or so. Realworld work is about
to explode with hyper-busy activity so time to play will be radically effected.

DanSavage
08-11-2012, 10:00 PM
If anyone can make sense out of the many source documents for the B-47, I'll send 'em a bottle of Krug ... or a good cognac!!

Richard: thanks for your drawings - I noted that they seem to be for the B-47X/B, but I don't suppose most of the dimensional information would have changed for the E model. However, my recollections from my X/YB-52, and the early A-D models (when I worked for Boeing) leaves me with some uncertainty on this issue.

Hi Dave,

Beautiful model.

I took the liberty of calculating the CG for your B-47.

According to my calculations, it's exactly where the Boeing drawing shows. (25% MAC)

I also have the ability to calculate CG from a photograph. If you'd like me to do so, post a photo showing the top-view, or as close as you can get of your model and I'll post my results.

Dan

Flite-Metal
08-11-2012, 10:35 PM
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=161876&d=1344718793

Just a heads up relative to the wing sweep angle(s) of leading and trailing edges. This will effect the CG and the overall behavior of
the Dutch Roll on every scale of Boeing B-47...A,B, D,or E. Taking dims from a prop "D" drawing could yield a concern.

Not to sound like a know-it-all...just bringing everyone's attention to each of the multiple view drawings utilized on a given project to
assure all share the same sweep angle.

For example, I do not recall having the above top down projection in the 12 or more multiple-view drawings I have collected. By its mark
up it appears to be from a T.O. for the airframe of a B/C model.

DanSavage
08-11-2012, 11:27 PM
Just a heads up relative to the wing sweep angle(s) of leading and trailing edges. This will effect the CG and the overall behavior of
the Dutch Roll on every scale of Boeing B-47...A,B, D,or E. Taking dims from a prop "D" drawing could yield a concern.

Not to sound like a know-it-all...just bringing everyone's attention to each of the multiple view drawings utilized on a given project to
assure all share the same sweep angle.

For example, I do not recall having the above top down projection in the 12 or more multiple-view drawings I have collected. By its mark
up it appears to be from a T.O. for the airframe of a B/C model.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. These 'engineering' drawings are notoriously inaccurate. The angles they cite may be correct, but the lines in drawing itself don't measure to what is cited.

If I'm reading the drawing correctly, it says that the sweep angle of the leading edge should be 36.632 degrees, but is actually 37.83. It says the TE sweep should be 29.691 degrees but is actually 30.91. So, the wing in the drawing has more sweep than what it should. (blue lines vs. green lines)

That's why I like to calculate the CG from the actual finished model, itself. Then, no matter what drawing is used for the plans, the CG will be accurate to the flying model. Of course, if the same drawing used to build the model is the one used to calculate the CG, then the CG will be accurate to the model. But, in cases like this where the model was built from different drawings than is used to calculate the CG, then the CG on the model will be off, which almost always results in an incorrectly placed CG. Personally, this is the last thing I would want on a scratch-built model of this magnitude.

Dan

Flite-Metal
08-11-2012, 11:42 PM
I know Dave has to be feeling barraged at this point... :) Dan, I agree with your assessment, in the
end it is the actual 25% of MAC validation deduced from the model that has to be utilized.

Strong consideration for two axis balancing should be adhered to because there are multiple EDF and
outrigger retract units onboard Dave's, and my B-47 as well. Dave's batteries are centralized vs. mine
which are within the inboard pylons.

DanSavage
08-12-2012, 12:11 AM
I know Dave has to be feeling barraged at this point... :) Dan, I agree with your assessment, in the end it is the actual 25% of MAC validation deduced from the model that has to be utilized.

Strong consideration for two axis balancing should be adhered to because there are multiple EDF and outrigger retract units onboard Dave's, and my B-47 as well. Dave's batteries are centralized vs. mine which are within the inboard pylons.

Again, agreed on both points. I don't think a barrage of information is as bad as would be a barrage of conflicting information. ;)

Luckily, I've had a lot of experience calculating correct CG placement for models that are already built with modelers confirming after their test flight(s) that my calculated CG was accurate. :)

Below is one I did for the FlyFly F-22. The orange lines are where the manufacturer recommended. (wrong!) A lot of modelers tried to fly theirs at the manufacturer's recommended location and ended up crashing on the first flight. The blue lines are for the wing itself and the pink lines are for the wing and fuse. The pink lines are where I balanced mine and it flew fine.

The trickiest CG to calculate was for my brother's Airbus Beluga and it flew perfectly on the first flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEmP1JpC8T4

Dan

Capt. Midnight
08-12-2012, 05:23 AM
Hi Dan!

Thanks for all the input!! I'm not sure I can take a good photo of a plan view of my model, but will see if there's a way to do this. In the mean time, I'm going to try to attach a copy of data from an Excel file of the various computations I made to select the starting balance point. As noted, Ed is correct in his comment that my flight batteries are as close to the balance point as I could get them (there was a problem with interference with the aft landing gear retract geometry, so had to add a second small battery for the outrigger gear retracts under the vertical fin to balance the model). My 'theory' was/is that it's better to have mass concentrated near the balance point rather than locating the mass on lever arms away from that point. If this works (the data tabulation), you'll be able to see the comparison of the various computed CG locations. The relevant values are in the row labeled 'Root LE to CG' - the 'kinda' mean value is a little over 18 inches, so this is where I balanced the model.

I'll see if I can figure out how to get a plan-view shot of the model, and if I do, I can either email it to you or try to post it, whichever is better.

As I may have noted earlier, all this may be a bit moot, as, at present, there is no reasonably nearby hard-surface runway that I have access to, though one of the guys in my club has volunteered to help me on this problem: the Navy has changed the access rules to their outlying landing field on Whidbey Island which is the field I had intended to use.

Cheers,

Dave P.

DanSavage
08-12-2012, 05:50 AM
Hi Dave,

You're welcome. I'm always glad to help out a fellow scratch-builder. :)

Like you, I always try to keep as much of the mass as close to the CG as possible because it makes the models fly better.

One possibility for a plan-view is to hold it with the top of the model facing the camera. Another is to set the model down on the ground and either climb a ladder and shoot the photo that way. A third is to put the model under a balcony and shoot the photo while looking straight down.

Keep in mind that I don't need to see the whole model. I only use one side to calculate the CG, as shown in the photos I posted.

You don't have to mail it to me. Posting on this thread will work just fine. I looked at the PDF you posted, but unfortunately, I'm not very good at visualizing that kind of data.

Dan