Indoor Lancaster - build thread?

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi folks,

I have been checking with the guys over in building tips on some aspects and believe this is do-able. I have designed an Avro Lancaster at 41" wingspan for use in our indoor venue - Midland Velodome. I am designing my first plane, first multi and also at the moment only fly RET.

My design weight is under 10oz and to use 2 GWS IPS motors as there is way too much weight penalty in going for the four I believe.

Silly question - are you interested in a build thread?

On successful completion of this project I will publish the plans in DXF for those interested, but please let me get it all working first.

Ozzieflyer

[Ozzieflyer]

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8997&stc=1&d=1143020992

OK - The build is started

Here is a pdf of the basic 3 view I am using, drawn in Autocad. All work is based on this drawing. Having said that having started cutting I have already started modifying the working plans.

Photos to follow once I get my hands on a digital camera.

Ozzie

[Sky Sharkster]

Hi Ozzie, I, for one, am glad to see a build thread on this subject! It should be interesting and informative. Good Luck!
Ron

[Ozzieflyer]

Thanks for the support Ron.

I won't get much done tonight - it's indoor flying day! I wonder if I can get the Lanc flying for the next session in a months time?

Tail pieces all cut out and some ribs - the engine nacelles look massive!

Pete (Ozzieflyer)

[tim hooper]

Peter,

Sounds like you're serious on this one! :)

Love to see some pics.....

tim

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Tim,

Yep, wood has already been cut! I won't probably be posting any pictures until Friday/Sat due to other commitments. I have already taken some of the fusalage frame and also the tail feathers. Before I go much further I will mock up the tail assembly to 'prove' the method of controlling the rudders/tailwheel as we discussed on the previous thread. Only one thing better than flying and thats building - however 'flying tonight' (a slight misquote from Kenneth Williams from one of the 'Carry on' films!)

Ozzie

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi folks,

Here are the first two photos. The fuselage is built very lightly from 1/16 sheet, and will be open at the bottom in the 'diddle' style.
Also in the photo are the wing root ribs and also the sides of one of the main engine nacelles.

Second photo is the all sheet tail feathers, with the fin and rudder still joined. I have yet to jig this up to check the linkages.

I might also suggest to those who have not yet checked out the diddle plane thread in Ezone.

Not much done tonight - and there's a nice bottle of wine chilling to ease into the weekend :)

Ozzie

PS forgot to mention - that is a one foot (30cm) ruler!

[Sky Sharkster]

Hi Ozzie, looks like you're off and running! Nice job on the tail surfaces. That's a good-sized plane, how big is your indoor site?
Keep up the build thread!
Ron

[Ozzieflyer]

UPDATE

After discussions with Martin Hunter on Ezone I may now be using 4 motors!
It would appear that I can re-motor the LPS gearboxes witht the B2C motor and get both a drop in weight & drop in current draw - win-win - many thanks to Martin for pointing this out.

Sky, we have a fairly large indoor site, a velodome, I think the track is 400m around so we have a flyable area somewhere around 150m by 50m (guesstimate!) It is also reasonably high, arounf 8m with a 10m centre section. There are several guys there flying GWS E-starters and Beavers, although they do admit it gets a trifle interesting as it's pretty tight for that size/speed of plane.

Still working on the tail area at the moment - Saturday is family BBQ day - 52 weeks a year! so I don't get much done. Hope to finish the tail wheel assembly today so that I can get on with the mock up of the rudder/tail wheel linkage - photos when I have that solved

Ozzie

[Ozzieflyer]

I am having trouble getting the twin linkage to work with the tailwheel as well. Does anyone know of software (preferably free :) )that would help calculate the correct pivot points? I suspect I may just have too many constraints but won't let this beat me. The real problem is not to get it working but to do so as lightly as possible.

Ozzie

[Ozzieflyer]

OK! I now seem to have the twin rudder/tailwheel linkage sorted out - at least on the mock up. Not as elegant as I would have liked but it seems to work with a minimum of friction - very necessary with small servos. I have to do some scanning for my wife tonight, got to keep the taxman happy :(

The build hopefully will go on a pace now. Our next indoor meet is around the 20th April and I hope to get her going for that. I now have the replacement B2C motors on order and will hopefully get those by the end of the week.

[rahtware]

Ozzy

Dare I ask how the build is going?

[Ozzieflyer]

No problems rahtware!

We have had a major injury in the family - my sister-in-law had a bad vehicle crash on thursday, was in theatre for 6 1/2 hrs Friday! She is now stable but mother-in-Law (a very nice lady!) does not drive so we are doing a lot of running around for her at the moment.

Having said which I have built the final tail unit, though still need to make the control horn that links the tail wheel and rudders. I have taken a few more photos but haven't had the chance to post yet. I am also waiting for the new motors (B2C type) to come from Japan, hopefully today or tomorrow before I can finalise the wing design.

There was also a little thing as my Birthday (45!) in the way - I do not use the scalpel until I am definately sober!

Don't panic - this thread is not dead - just being a little time challenged at the moment

Ozzie

I quite agree - Don't let the B******* grind you down!

editted to fix spelling

[rahtware]

Sorry to hear about the family problems. I hope things work out for you.

I will keep an eye open for the continuation of this thread.

[Ozzieflyer]

Thanks Larry

Pete (Ozzieflyer)

[Ozzieflyer]

Update - Motors have now arrived from Japan.

Monday night is second job night - scanning records for my wife who is a full time locum but might find time to test the motors :)

[Sky Sharkster]

Hi Ozzie, sorry to hear about your family misfortune, best wishes to everyone and a speedy recovery!
Regarding the "Lancaster" are you going to use counter-rotating props? Just a thought, might help torque problems. We have a "P-38" thread going on "Warbirds" that discusses this, but it may be hard to find correct size/pitch props with reverse pitch.
Good Luck!
Ron

[Ozzieflyer]

Ron

Thanks for the best wishes - been a hectic weekend for sure. As far as I am aware there are no reverse pitch props available. I did look briefly at the varioprop system but just don't have the weight to spare. As has been stated in other threads, especially the diddlebug thread on Ezone, the small GWS motors are not particulary well matched, so if one can sort through them and keep the stronger ones on one side to counteract the torque it may help.

I have done a weight comparison between the RLX motor and B2C motor in the IPS 'A' gearbox. RLX was 24gm for motor, gearbox and prop whilst the B2C with gearbox and prop was 14gm, quite a substantial saving. The GWS spinners are 3 gm each. Overall a 6gm weight gain going from 2 to four motors. Worthwhile for the better scale rendition, though remember this is only roughly to scale. I wish we could get blue foam over here as it would be great fot the turret mouldings but will probably have to use balsa. By my rough weight calcs the battery should sit under the canopy so I am thinking on making this removable as the battery hatch. However this is not strictly necessary as the idea behind the diddle planes is to leave the bottom open. Should be fine with the Lanc - I'll just say the bomb doors are open :)

Pete

OOps for RLX read RLC!

[Ozzieflyer]

A little more progress folks.

The rudder and elevator are hinged by floppy disk material. I also added 1/16" sq supports under the elevator for the fins. Elevator is joined by 3mm carbon tube, with 1mm carbon rod inserted through a drilled hole onto which the control horn will be glued. I have now updated all of the gear boxes as well. Aluminium tube is for tail wheel axle.

Good news on the family front - my sister-in-law is now able to 'lean-up', but it will be at least 6 weeks before she can bear weight on her leg. Thanks for all the good wishes for her recovery.

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Views of motors, showing weights. As you can see the IPS gearbox with B2C motor, prop and spinner weighs the same as just the RLC motor.
I'll just have to watch the full throttle amp draw, a little over 1 amp with the 6x5 prop shown here.

[Ozzieflyer]

OK managed to do a little more over Easter.

Photos show the main crutch and bulkheads and the tailwheel assembly with control horn for rudder/steering. Hopefully I will be able to proceed apace now :)

[rahtware]

Nice work, this is very interesting so thanks for keeping us posted.

[Ozzieflyer]

Well I am not going make the next indoor session, which is this Thursday. However I now have the bulkheads glued to the crutch , as well as the tail assembly. Next job is to install the rudder and elevator servos and linkages, then on to building the wing and fusalage body.

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Sorry about not adding more lately - Thursday night was a bad one for indoor - my horsefly had a serious crash avoiding a stealth butterfly, same colour as the background ans nearly flew through it - interwing struts and front of fuselage stove in. Then managed to damage my little Babe - it was a little gusty and it somersaulted when I put it on the ground to open the car!

Still should be able to continue the Lanc tomorrow, also Tuesday is a public holiday over here in Aus so hope to be able to do more then - as soon as the 'honey do' list is out of the way :)

Pete

[rahtware]

Do you celebrate Anzac Day like we do Veterans Day with parades and Bar-B-Qs?

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Larry,

Yep, sure do, start at the Dawn Service and knock on from there. I have now added the rudder and elevator servos and ran into a small problem of the rudder control horns are hitting the elevator if both are at the extreme of travel. I will have to resight the rudder control horn or slightly reduce the elevator size ( I am sure I have plenty of control surface here). Will fix up on Anzac day. Photos then when problem sorted.
This is surely a great introduction to scratch building with many more things to think about than I had thought.

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

OK folks - next photos.

These show the completed tail assembly after moving the rudder control horns. Available movement is around 45 degrees from centre for the rudder and +- 30 degrees for the elevators - more than sufficient I am positive :)

Next stage is to start sheeting the fuselage to give it the strength to survive while I start on the wings. Wings will be made 'a la diddle style - 1/16" sheet LE, TE and SPAR with litespan covering. I will have to bulk up the inboard section a little as I want to make the wings removable for transport - remember this is 41" wingspan. The way I see it I have two options.
1/ Build inboard section to the fuselage, this would be approx 12" wide and include the inboard motor and landing gear as one unit. Each outer panel would be then plugged in for flight, including the outboard motors. This would mean a total of eight motor connectors in the circuit


2/ Build each wing halve seperately with single plug at centre


This has the advantage of only six connectors but would need heavier construction at the fuselage/wing join. This is the method I am currently thinking of using.

Does anyone have recommendations or other ideas?

Cheers

Pete

Edit - removed motor text sketch as spaces automatically removed by website.

[Sky Sharkster]

Hi Pete, great job so far! For the wing break(s) I'm in favor of #2, the center break; Always seems like this is an easier place to strengthen and join wings and this can double as wing/fuse attachment joint i.e. whatever holds the wings together can also hold them to the fuse. Perhaps a short dowel protruding from each 1/2 span (pointing forward) that goes into a matching hole in forward bulkhead and small nylon bolts rearward?
How's the weight coming out? I remember you targeted 10 ounces AUW at the start. The wiring is likely a large part of it.
Good Luck!
Ron

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Ron

Weight is definately going to be troublesome. As these latest photos show the fuselage in this state weights in at 52g (1.85oz) [includes two servos & rudder/elevator linkages) and the main undercarriage at 24 g (those are 2" wheels!). After a very wet Anzac day I have also started on the Stb wing. I have also decided a two part wing is better than three part, also less electrical connections!. You might be able to see the carbon tube in the fuselage, this is the wing connector. I have tight fitting aluminium tubing under the main spar basically from the centre of the fuselage to the outboard side of the inboard engine nacelle, at which point there is a change in dihederal. The wings will not enter the fuselage, only the tube and incidence dowel.
As this is a RET model I will be adding some extra dihedral, around 8 degrees for each wing tip which I think will be enough. There will be another Carbon Tube at the trailing edge to set incidence.

As I have mentioned before, this is a major challenge for a first own design and I can not believe how much I am learning from this experience. I have already lost count of the changes from my original construction plans there have been but, as promised, if she flys I will release the plans - probably in dxf or pdf format. You will need access to at least an A1 output device. I am lucky in that I have an old HP A1 inkjet at home so it is easy to run out amended plans!

Motors are going to add around 68g but as you say the wiring will add a fair bit more as the motor wires barely reach the end of the nacelles.

Well I think thats about it for tonight.

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi guys,
Just realised that I am somewhat mixing my measurements so thought I had better put some conversion factors here to simplify things. We changed systems in the UK in the final years of school so I tend to use both.

1oz = 28.35g therefore I am aiming for 10oz/283.5g ready to fly
1" = 25.4mm wingspan is roughly 40.5" or 1030mm.

The wings are slightly stretched for the inboard panels by about 1" - this is to allow greater prop clearance from the fuselage. I am looking at using the GWS 6050 slowfly props which are much larger than scale.

Hope this helps anyone who has been struggling with my mixture of units.

[rahtware]

How about...1 short ton = 512 000 dram... Here is a useful site for converting from one format to another...

http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_common.htm

It also has links to pages for length, temp....

[Ozzieflyer]

Just a heads up guys.

I cannot at the moment log in at home so cannot post more tho this thread until the problem is resolved. Hopefully the support guys here can fix the problem. I logged out so I could set up a new account for my daughter and I can now no longer log in!

I have logged in from work but cannot post photos etc from here.

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

OK problems with my login are now sorted so a few more pictures.

The inboard engine nacelles are built as are the inboard wing panels. The model is now capable of self standing :).
Next job is the outer wing panels and the outboard engine nacelles. I have also at this point got to make up the engine wiring loom. There will be a connector for each motor as well as a connector at the wing/fuselage join, making a total of six connectors.
I could just cut off the connectors of the motors and then solder up the loom so only the wing join connectors are required but believe it is better to have all the connectors to make it much simpler to replace a motor if required (or 'steal' the motor for another plane!). So far my weight has now climbed to 152gm. I suspect I am going to go over my target weight
:(

[Ozzieflyer]

Sorry about the delay - life got in the way of fun:(

OK progress to data. Both wings are now fully built - see attached photos. For some reason the Stb wing looks higher in the photos but seems ok when checking the plane - weird. Now 'all' I have to do is finish the fuselage and add the Rx and Esc. I will definately be going over on weight. So far I am up to exactly 9oz (including flight battery) but I don't think that finishing the fuselage will be light.

As we cannot get bluefoam here in Perth I thought I might try moulding the turrets and cockpit from acetate - or else will have to make from balsa, pins and paint. I also need to tidy up the tail and noe parts of the fuselage.

Add wing covering and I think 11-12 oz is probably looking closer - I will have to check into options but may have to go back to the 2 motor option. :(

Oh well, enjoy the photos


Pete

[makg]

That thing looks sweet, keep up the good work;)

[Ozzieflyer]

Mak,

That's no thing, that's my Lanc :)

It's okay - just kidding

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

OK, I had indoor flying last night and the Lanc went with me. It is still not covered but I had finished the wiring loom late the night before and wanted to check all OK with room to taxi. With the steerable tailwheel turns are small. Having all 4 motors running was sweet :)

Next job is to find a way to lock the wings in position for flying and then finish the fuse and cover. Also I need to lpossibly ook at strengthening the wings against twist - the outboard motors are adding a lot of weight well forward of the spar. There is some twist but I think it is OK. Under power there was no appreciable additional twist from idle to full power.

Sorry this thread is taking so looong but I am learning so much here. It is pretty well a case of building two of everything - one for proof of concept and then the final build.

Pete

[kateflyer]

Hey Ozzie,
I have just seen your neat thread and I am very interested and it's looking great. :)

Kate

[rahtware]

OK, I had indoor flying last night and the Lanc went with me. It is still not covered but I had finished the wiring loom late the night before and wanted to check all OK with room to taxi. With the steerable tailwheel turns are small. Having all 4 motors running was sweet :)

Next job is to find a way to lock the wings in position for flying and then finish the fuse and cover. Also I need to lpossibly ook at strengthening the wings against twist - the outboard motors are adding a lot of weight well forward of the spar. There is some twist but I think it is OK. Under power there was no appreciable additional twist from idle to full power.

Pete

Have you considered covering (at least) the bottom of the wings with film?

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the continued interest in my humble project.

Yep, I will cover it at some point :). Main reason I took it to indoor on Thursday was to ask for advice from the long term modellers. Main problem is how to keep the wings attached in flight - a minor item:)

Whilst they plug in to the two cross fuselage tubes I don't believe that the fit is strong enough to remain fixed while flying. While I had considered the rubber band across the fuselage onto hooks on each wing the costruction is very light, also with the motors so far forward of the main spar the wings are quite floppy. Covering will certainly improve the strength of the wing to some degree but won't improve the twist factor much. The flyers concensus at indoor was I would probably break the wings while attempting hookup. I am thinking at this stage to add a couple of tounges at each wing root and add a pin/bolt from the bottom of the open fuselage through the tounges to lock the wings in place.
I am still not convinced that the current wing construction is as light AND strong as possible. As I stated earlier each stage has really been a case of building a prototype then looking at ways to improve with either no weight gain or even possibly further lightening.
Thinking about the power I had from the motors I am even half thinking of increasing the scale as I believe the increase in wing area will more than offset the minimal weight increase. However that, if it happens, would be a new thread :)
I am at least happy I have more than sufficient power to fly but now worry it could be too fast for the indoor hall we use. Time will tell!

Pete

[rahtware]

Pete

Have you checked out 'rare earth magnets'? Radio shack sells tiny ones for 2/$2. There are better/cheaper ones out there that weigh very little and are super strong.

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Larry,

Tandy (radio Shack in Australia) were taken over by DSE (Dick Smith Electronics) locally and don't stock the magnets. Half of the fun and games of this build. I've tried DSE and Jaycar (another electronics place here in Perth) but neither sell the really small magnets.

Now - why do you only want oily left shoes? :)

Pete

[Cas123]

Hi Pete.

If you're still looking for small rare earth magnets for the wings I bought in a hundred or so for my own use and would be willing to part with some. I also have a stock of 3mm and 6mm depron sheets.

Ron...

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Cas,

where are you? I may be interested. give me a pm

Guy's

Sorry about the delay - been in thinking mode re the wing twisting/wi locking. I have decided to go with the original wings at the moment and have added a tab on each wing that overlaps in the centre of the fuselage and then have a 2mm bolt through the base of the fuselage and then through both tabs, with local reinforcing with 1mm ply.

Next is the final internal fit out and upper fuselage covering. I might have to go the stingers and tissue option here to try and pull back some weight. Also turrets and cockpit still to be made. More photos soon.

Pete

[rahtware]

Now - why do you only want oily left shoes? :)

Pete
When flying nitro models I would stand with the tail locked between my feet as I ran up the engine. With the exhaust on the right side of the plane my right shoe would get soaked with castor oil. Needless to say, those days are over.

[Ozzieflyer]

Thanks for the reply Larry,

I have never flown fuel planes so didn't understand the reference

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

OK, on with the Lanc,

Photos show wing bolt on underside of fuselage along with the JR610 Rx and Robbe 10A ESC. Rx is velcro'd on to facilitate change of crystal while ESC is cabletied. Also attached are wing tongues close up on both wings and a photo of the wings assembled on the plane.

I have also decided to put a couple of extra stringers on the fueslage to help on the sharp radii at the top of the fuselage.

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Finally starting to take shape now. Last couple of photos show I now have the upper fuselage skins on. These are very soft 1.5mm sheet to be able to take the sharp curves at the top of the fuselage. The glue is still drying in these shots. The skins will be sanded down to about half the thickness when all is dry - total weight gained is 25gm :)

Next part is the Nose, Tail and Upper turrets and cockpit area. Oh and I guess I should cover those wings soon as well.

Hopefully in August I will be going to the UK and see the real thing in flight - I was meant to see it on my 16th Birthday but the weather gods declared otherwise, the Spitfire and Hurricane did some good beat ups of the airfield but the weather was deemed too bad for the Lanc to fly .This was at an Airfield called Sywell, near Northampton, England - I didn't emigrate until I was 26. The main reason for the trip isn'tas good (family illness) but at least it will give me the excuse to make a side trip.

[Ozzieflyer]

Further progress

Forward fuselage skin and forward turret. I am not very happy with this turret as it does not seem to fit the front profile of the fuselage very well, however the side elevation seems OK. What do you think guys?

[Sky Sharkster]

Hi Pete, great work and build thread on the "Lanc"!! On the nose turret, there may be two (at least) variants, one has the sides more narrow than the fuselage behind it (like your photo) the other has the turret blended in on the sides. Here's a good link for B+W photos;
http://www.lancaster-archive.com/Lanc-Pics.html
Under In-Flight Images, # 9 from the top, 83 Squadron OL-Y and # 10, 619 Squadron PG-S
Under Nose Art, "Able Mabel", "Still Going Strong", "Unknown (8) and bottom of page "Dagwood".
Good Luck, keep us posted,
Ron

[Ozzieflyer]

Thanks for the reply Ron,

Nice link. I thought if I built the new turret with the same side profile but a little fatter it would be a better fit. Unfortunately I am already getting a bit of hanger rash - it doesn't take much on 1mm or less balsa. I am however going to try hard to get her finished for the 22nd for our next indoor flying. It might be better if I could maiden her outside as I am unsure of handling and with the extra weight I am up to the stall speed is steadily creeping higher. I am hoping to get a new 400mA Lipo as my current 450mA E-Tec hasn't got the current capacity to drive all 4 motors. However my supplier doesn't seem to be getting any 2S sets in until after I want to maiden. I have an 850mA Lipo but that is twice as heavy and I really need to shed some weight, not gain more. Only problem is we are now in winter and not getting any windless days. Just hope the maiden won't be the final flight.

[Ozzieflyer]

UPDATE
I have rebuilt the nose/fwd turret, much happier with the new set up. Also have finished to upper turret and started the rear turret. Indoor session is on Thursday so I want to have her ready for that. I have also been able to order the new battery at last, was waiting on stock. Doubt it will come before Thursday though. Once rear turret is finished then only wings to cover. I will probably wait until after initial flight before painting. This weekend we had perfect maiden weather but I am still recovering from flu so didn't chance it.

Photos to come later

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi folks,

Photos as promised, rear turret is just a roughy for the maiden I hope to take on Thursday. Still has the fairing to be put on. The forward turret is made from a built up shell, sanded to final shape. The mid upper and rear turrets are both a single thickness of 1mm balsa around a 1.5mm base and two 4mm balsa top formers. Upper turret is a tight push fit in the hole and not glued - this baby is NOT stressed for aerobatics :) Rear turret is tack glued as it needs a bit more shaping. All being well I will cover the wings tomorrow night and get and fix the battery on Wednesday ready for a Thursday flight.

Was hoping I could maiden outside but the weather has closed down again, sure hope I have sufficient turning circle for indoors!

Pete

[Cas123]

Hi Pete,
I'ts looking sweet. Are you taking it to the indoor meeting on thursday night?

Ron...

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Ron,

Yep I should be there with the Lanc, hopefully ready to fly. Just got to cover the wings tonight, and hopefully make a start on the cockpit, though may not have that ready for thursday. Just a case then of hopefully getting the battery from Japan on Wednesday so I have time to solder the connector and test.

don't forget the magnets please :)

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi Guys,

Well progress was slower than anticipated this evening. Was hoping to cover the wings tonight but took way longer to do the nose cone than I expected. For a first attempt at something other than a smooth canopy I am very happy with the result - bet no one can work out what I used for the mould :) [I'll tell later - promise, clue - smelly!]. All up it took 5 attempts before I had minimal creases in the required area.
I should probably point out that this plane is totally the work of hand tools, hence some of the time delays. I think I built in excess of 10 turrets before I had a light, just strong enough result.

It now looks as though I won't finish in time for Thursday - The social director has told me tonight that we are going out tomorrow for dinner, My youngest is away at school camp so my wife has organised a dinner with her mum and our son as an early birthday treat for my son (he'll be 12 in July and this is the first time we've taken him out for an 'adult' meal). No matter - I'll still bring it indoors on Thursday Ron.

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Important Update.

Well after a beautiful meal we managed to get home relatively early so I have managed to cover the wings and formed the rear turret fairing. The battery, at last checking, has left Melbourne to come to Perth after clearing customs so there is a reasonable chance I may get it tomorrow. I get the guys in Japan to courier the stuff to my work address so I get it rather than get a parcel pickup note. If I get it I still have to solder a connector on. Only the cockpit remains to be built but I can maiden without that.

So it looks like tomorrow will be the day!

Ron, see you there, I'll probably give Ross the honours, if he will, as he has wayyy more experience in trimming badly balanced planes than I. Must take my video camera up as well.

I will make sure that I take plenty of photos before and during the event.

Pete

Thinks - must double check my CG calcs again tonight :)

[Ozzieflyer]

Yippee

Well my battery has arrived. Will hopefully have time to solder on a connector before I have to leave for the indoor meeting tonight. This saves me around 1/2 oz on the flying weight.
Weighed the plane with the larger battery in last night and came in at 333 gm, this gave a wing loading of around 8oz/sq ft - a bit high for indoors.
With the new battery I will ba nearer the 7 oz/sq ft which is getting better although originally I was hoping to be closer to 5oz/sq ft.

Ways to save weight?
- mold all turrets from plastic as per the bomb aimers blister.
- lighten fuselage crutch
- replace inner RLC motors with B2C motors - I might also do this tonight (I knew there was a reason to make the motors detachable from the wiring loom!)

Possible overall weight savings could be around 1/2 to 1 oz which over the 206 sq in wing area is getting closer to the 5oz/sq ft mark. Obviously cannot make all these changes before tonight (still 6 more hours at work to go :( ) - I will have to decide wether to risk the maiden tonight given the possible improvements. Either that or go for it and then build an improved model from what I have learnt here.



Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

OK folks

Latest news is that there has been no maiden yet. On getting to the hall I noticed one wing had get quite heavily warped - combination of weak structure and shrinking covering I think. I will either have to recover after steaming the warp out or possibly make a new wing. I am also getting over a cold and noticed my reactions wern't really up to speck on flying my pico moth and 'little babe' planes.
Another reason was the high wing loading, combined with unknown turn characteristics, so I have decided to wait for a calm evening. As I still have the cockpit to do the wait won't be too bad.
I will also see if I can shed a bit of weight somewhere.
It was a bit of a shame really as the hall was almost empty - most of Australia was waiting for the Australia/Croatia match :)

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

to say I have not forgotten you all - been very time poor this last week - and probably another week or so. Boss about to go on a months holiday so noses to grindstone to get a a few major projects out before he goes :(

I will be re-building the stb wing as it has aquired a major warp and also need to finish the cockpit. Will definately give a heads up on attempting flight.

Sorry for the wait folks

Pete

[Ozzieflyer]

Hi All

Still waiting on a still day - forecast not too promising for this weekend.
Latest photo with completed cockpit. I will not paint until I know how she flies, for an aircraft of this weight even a coat of paint is significant in mass!

Ozzie

[Ozzieflyer]

It flies - almost!

Well I have given up on waiting on good outdoor weather so bit the bullet and tried to maiden at the indoor meeting last night. With the steerable tailwheel taxiing was fine. However, on attaining flying speed the problems started. I obviously have wings with two completely different lift characteristics. Each time on attaining flying speed the left wing developed lift while the right side stayed firmly on the ground. I believe this is a combination of factors -
1. The wings are quite flimsy with the very light construction
2. Prop torque
3. Possibly more wash-in on the right hand wing.

Looking at this analysis I think the best route is probably to increase the scale of the plane and rebuild, using the same power system. this will allow for a more rigid structure while, with the larger wing area, possibly lowering the wing loading.

Looking at a either 50% or greater increase (double wing area). Any comments please

PS since no one wanted to guess - the bomb aimers nosepiece was taken from a mdified deoderant bottle - it was the perfect size.

Pete

[Au_Arbiter]

have you thought about using depron to make the wings? on my indoor bear i used 3mm depron with a 3x1mm carbon spar at about 33% of the wings chord, it does flex a little, so you might want to use two spars (like a shock flyer). espically since the lancaster weighs more (the bear is 194.5g).

for the prop torque you could just use the same motors on direct drive, my bear uses four n20's and easily has enough power for indoor flight.

if you do have wash-in remove it, it makes the plane more likely to stall.

heres a link to my bear thread if you are interested

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=517925

good luck!, it would be cool to see something indoors that isn't a shockflyer.

- Arbiter -

[rahtware]

If you are going to rebuild anyway...

It wouldn't hurt to do some R&D and try different ways of strengthening the wings... When you said that you covered them. was that top and bottom? I have found that a fully covered wing is much stiffer than one that is only covered on the top. Also, I didn't catch what you covered them with..

[Ozzieflyer]

HI Guys,
Au Arbiter - Depron is way more expensive than balsa over here in the west. I already have an aluminium 'main spar' up to the inner nacelles.

Larry - Yep, wing construction will be more traditional rib/spar construction, remember that the 'spar' for the outer wing panels is only 1/16th balsa thick. Main spar for the new wing will be at least 1/8 up to the outer nacelles.

No work will be started on the new plane until I get back from the UK at the end of September, except some plan fiddling. I sthink I should start a new thread for the larger Lanc.

While over in the UK I will be attending both the Shoreham-by-sea airshow and the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight members day so hope to get some good lanc shots at both meets. Unfortunately this will be all I have time for as I am mainly going to give my mother a break from nursing my father so not much chance to do much sight-seeing.

Catch up with you guys in around a month (no email/web access in the UK)


Pete