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a_g_bell
06-28-2006, 10:28 PM
Q/F e-mailed me the link to the yak 54 thread.

He said - "it is not healthy to go against the watt flyer tide an speak the truth." -

I guess he was right. I'll be moving along onto RCG myself.

HermitRiver
06-29-2006, 04:24 PM
Q/F e-mailed me the link to the yak 54 thread.

He said - "it is not healthy to go against the watt flyer tide an speak the truth." -

I guess he was right. I'll be moving along onto RCG myself.
a_g_ Called a "clique". I have noticed this myself. Don't tell it how it is, tell it how the clique thinks it should be "or is/happens to be" in their little world.

Why was Qban flyer banned? Something offensive? Political? religious? Or was it just valid opinions and freedom of speech? Hermit

Steve G
06-30-2006, 12:14 AM
Although only a newbie here, I agree with Hermit.

I joined this site because of Qban. In the past few days, I've been looking for posts that might cause one to be banned. I've only seen Qban express his own opinion regarding quality of kits, or the lack thereof. I believe most of us appreciate that kind of honesty. He has spent more time lauding products he found worthy.... towit: this very thread... initally, I thought he was a company representative. That should be worth a great deal to a RC forum: A qualified expert who will separate the wheat from the chaff to keep unscrupulous sellers from preying on naive newbies, like me. On his recommendation, I sent Airfoilz $240 for one of their planes. :)



I know this site flatout states that they aren't beholden to advertisers, yet that doesn't seem to be true. I understand the owners of the site want to make money; we all need money and I'll gladly spend mine. But you can choose to do it honestly or dishonestly. To cover up open dialog on the value of a product - good or bad - is dishonest. If I can't trust that the opinions aren't bought-and-paid-for, there's no way I will send my money to a seller based on those opinions.

I read the entire Slow Stick thread and, frankly, after all the give-and-take, I was interested in buying one in spite of Qban's reservations. I think the administrators overestimate the damage a single poster can do. If a seller can't stand the exposure of a negative post, then I infer they are trying to hide something.

Why won't someone come forward and answer Hermit's question?

Steve Grove

Mike Parsons
06-30-2006, 01:02 AM
I have split this conversation out of the AF thread to keep that thread on topic.

I do not discuss actions taken towards any member outside of the member affected and staff. I feel it is a courtesy owed both parties.

I will say our actions had nothing to do with product, vendor or otherwise. We welcome dialog about (any) product or vendor, both good or bad that benefits the WattFlyer R/C community. That includes discussing this site. ;)

Thank you,
Mike

Mike Parsons
06-30-2006, 01:36 AM
I know this site flatout states that they aren't beholden to advertisers, yet that doesn't seem to be true. I understand the owners of the site want to make money;

Steve Grove
Just so there aren't any misconceptions. This site makes zero dollars from advertisment. We will build a banner database strictly for WattFlyer. The idea is that vendors can donate to one of the site supported charities (at the bottom of every page), show their donation and have their banner roll on the site. It is one of the things that is being worked on as the time allows (remember most all of us have full time jobs). Marc is the only lucky one that does this full time :)

Mike

Steve G
06-30-2006, 02:05 AM
Thanks, Mike, for a gentlemanly reply. I understand your reasons for not discussing this issue publicly. My curiosity is piqued partly out of fear that I, too, might step across a line which is kept invisible to me. Surely you can see how confusing the issue is to us when we find one of our favorite posters "banned" and can find no logical reason for it because a) the posts have been censored and b) the people who did the banning feel compelled not to share their reasoning and c) the banned person is incapable of publicly defending himself.

Anyway, I'm happy that you read my post and I hope it tempers your decision on how to proceed. I'm confident that you understand how passionate Bert is about his sport and how passionate he is about those who would sully the sport by taking advantage of its participants. I would suggest a policy of warning people if their posts - singly or cumulatively - are crossing into an area that's undesireable to the management of the site.

Many of us older folks, no longer being kids, don't have time or money to waste on niceties and are quick to call a spade, a spade and let the chips fall where they may.

Thanks, again, Mike, for taking the time to reply.

Steve Grove

Rugar
06-30-2006, 02:45 AM
I would suggest a policy of warning people if their posts - singly or cumulatively - are crossing into an area that's undesireable to the management of the site.

Steve Grove

Steve,
We do have that policy in place already. I can assure you that members do, and have received PM's when starting to get into the gray area of WattFlyer Policies. A member would never be banned from this site without proper warnings to give them the choice of changing whatever it is that is against policy well before the actual banning takes place.

Mike Parsons
06-30-2006, 03:46 AM
Steve,
Very well put and I couldnt agree more with all of your points. As Gerald stated, when someone is banned or given a breather from WattFlyer for a while, it does not come as a suprise. The only users that are not afforded that luxury are the spammers that clutter the forums as that earns them an immediate one way ticket out :).

If you ever have questions or comments, I have an open PM policy and am here for you guys. I might not always know the answer or be able to share it, but I'll tell what I do know and share what I can :)

HermitRiver
06-30-2006, 12:29 PM
Although only a newbie here, I agree with Hermit.

I read the entire Slow Stick thread and, frankly, after all the give-and-take, I was interested in buying one in spite of Qban's reservations.

Why won't someone come forward and answer Hermit's question?

Steve Grove

Steve. There was nothing wrong or bad said about the SS in that thread. It was OPINION, PREEDOM OF SPEECH. The new design was discussed as what it actually has become, cheaper and weaker... Yes it fits a smaller box. I don't think Qban's sole opinion of a truly weaker design is going to affect GWS or slowstick sales.

No one is going to answer my questions, this isn't reality. Sure, I may get a gray warning from the STASI but nothing will be addressed.

It was a complete surprise to Qban, I was in touch with him the whole time. None would come forward and even tell him he was banned for days. He kept e mailing and asking with no response. No reason given, if there is one. Notices that he was entering the "gray area"?:p May have been nice if he got them too not just the clique.

Want my question answered? Qban tells it like it is and doesn't cowtow to a certain few. He was a top poster, double what ANYONE else on this forum ever came close to and again, no warning. Now someone with 1/2 his posts is gloating. Not to mention half the posts but the sharing and the knowledge is now GONE. Hermit

Don Sims
06-30-2006, 02:30 PM
Hermit,
No one told him for "days"? That's an unfortunate exaggeration. This isn't the first time he's been given a vacation from the site and as Mike and Glen both stated, he was warned.

You've had issues here on the site and you made the choice to follow the few policies that we've have even though you disagree with them. Bert made another choice. You didn't kowtow to anyone, you adjusted your posting and respected our guidelines as well as other members.

Post count is nice. I have a lot of posts also but many folks might think that my posts don't have a lot of substance in the big scheme of things and many-many other members have only a few posts and they make major contributions to WF.

I hope the admins let Bert come back eventually but as you well know, there are times when he needs to make his point and move on. Not keep making it, and making it, and making it, and making it.....

Matt Kirsch
06-30-2006, 02:45 PM
Think about this for a second:

If Qban's opinions about hobby products were the problem, why haven't they been deleted?

It's because they are NOT the problem.

Your honest and informed opinions on hobby products are welcome. We do not "kowtow" to sponsors here because Wattflyer has no sponsors, except for Marc Vigod of course.

What is NOT welcome here is clearly outlined in the rules.

a_g_bell
06-30-2006, 03:06 PM
Q sent me the e-mail exchange between him and Marc Vigod.

He was clearly been given the runaround like hermit says.

Marc wrote: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:03:40 -0400
I am checking withn nathan to see if any system or other changes have been made in last 24 hours

Marc wrote: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:16:31 -0400
I'm checking into this.
marc

First hint Q had:
Subject: Autoresponder - RE: My Status?
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:49:20 -0400

AUTORESPONDER:

I am out of the office but will be checking messages periodically


Six hours later Q gets an email from Parsons. Perhaps you guys are not been told the whole thing?

Something to think about.

On 6-28-06 I myself get a friendly pm reminder by one moderator (rugar) suggesting that I, a_g_bell could be spamming with my posts. Intimidation tactics?

Mike Parsons
06-30-2006, 03:47 PM
I will not address actions taken any further. As I stated earlier, it is between the affected member and staff.

a_g_bell,
You posted the same message in multiple forums. This is considered cross posting or more commonly spamming which is not allowed. No intimidation tactic, just keeping things tidy. As you can see, your first post is fully intact and is sitting right at the top of this thread.

I am not sure that there is anything left to discuss, but I will leave this thread open for now. If it gets past a healthy discussion, I will not hesitate to close it down.

Mike

Rugar
06-30-2006, 09:48 PM
On 6-28-06 I myself get a friendly pm reminder by one moderator (rugar) suggesting that I, a_g_bell could be spamming with my posts. Intimidation tactics?



Since you feel a need to bring me into to this as well, we will just have to let the members decide if I was using "Intimidation Tactics", as you put it.
The original post in the top of this thread was the one that you posted in the "Yak" thread.
Here is the one that you posted in the "Air Hogs" thread and was deleted as a duplicate post:

Thread: Air Hogs Aero Ace (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=84293#post84293)
View Single Post http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/images/images_pb/statusicon/post_old.gif 06-28-2006, 02:35 PM a_g_bell (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=4757) vbmenu_register("postmenu_84293", true);
S.A.D. Member

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20
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Rep Power: 0http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/images/images_pb/reputation/reputation_pos.gif


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Q/F e-mailed me the link to the yak 54 and this thread.

He said - "it is not healthy to go against the watt flyer tide an speak the truth." -

I guess he was right. He's been banned.

I'll be moving onto RCG, at least they warn people when they become offensive if they lack of Political Correctness.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/images/images_pb/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/images/images_pb/buttons/reputation.gif (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/reputation.php?p=84293) http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/images/images_pb/buttons/report.gif (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/report.php?p=84293) http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/images/images_pb/buttons/ip.gif (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/postings.php?do=getip&p=84293)

Here is my PM to you that you are referring to:
Here at WattFlyer we believe that members should be allowed to voice their opinions freely and openly. However like most all Forums, we do have rules to keep the Forums as user friendly as possible for all members of the WattFlyer Community. While you are most welcome to voice your opinion, please refrain from posting the same message in duplicate threads as this is considered spam, as is against WattFlyer Policy. I left your first post in the "AirFoilz Yak" thread, but the one in the "Air Hogs" thread has been deleted.
I hope you understand and encourage you to still be apart of the WattFlyer community.

Have a great day!

Now just what in that PM made you come to the conclusion that I was using "Intimidation Tactics"? I told you as it clearly states, that members are allowed to voice their opinions freely and opening, just as you are doing now, and which I know for a fact is not allowed on the "other" forum that you referred to in your post. In fact if this thread was on that "other" forum, you wouldn't even be reading it because it would not even be allowed to exist! What is not allowed, is making duplicate posts in multiple threads or forums. I didn't give you a attitude or make threats when I PMed you. I was very sincere about it.

We don't get paid to do anything here. I for one spend as much as 5 hours a day here going through threads and posts and moving them around to the proper forum. I spend time looking through forums and posts in sections that have types of aircraft I have no interest in. Why? To keep the forums running as smoothly as possible so that members hopefully can have a better experience here then at "other" web sites that only care about the bottom dollar. When the forums are filled with constant spamming such as ":D :D :D", and "I agree" or the same post "over" and "over" and "over" again, it just makes it harder for members to weed through page after page of this crap to get the information that they came to WattFlyer to find.

I can tell you one of the things we have been guilty of here at WattFlyer. That is letting members get away with way more then that "other" forum does. We tried to make a atmosphere here that everyone can enjoy without fear of getting "warning points" for stupid mistakes or a slip of the tongue. But now the problem is that the regular "hardcore members and posters" are trying to take advantage of it and want to cry fowl when we do enforce the rules.

redneckflyer
07-01-2006, 03:16 AM
Q/F e-mailed me the link to the yak 54 thread.

He said - "it is not healthy to go against the watt flyer tide an speak the truth." -

I guess he was right. I'll be moving along onto RCG myself.witch yak 54 thread???

HermitRiver
07-01-2006, 04:00 PM
Hermit,
No one told him for "days"? That's an unfortunate exaggeration. This isn't the first time he's been given a vacation from the site and as Mike and Glen both stated, he was warned.

You've had issues here on the site and you made the choice to follow the few policies that we've have even though you disagree with them. Bert made another choice. You didn't kowtow to anyone, you adjusted your posting and respected our guidelines as well as other members.


Originally Posted by Rugar
Here at WattFlyer we believe that members should be allowed to voice their opinions freely and openly.

Yes Don. I folllow your rules and guidelines. If Qban was "so properly warned" how about according to Rugars "allowing members to voice and opinion freely and openly I voice this.. How about leaving it up and not erasing the thread or closing it?


"No one told him for "days"? That's an unfortunate exaggeration., Don" Don, 4 weekdays is not an exageration and that's not what is unfortunate.
It went on from 6-26 6pm to 6-30 9:36AM, that's almost 4 days. It is not an "unfortunate exageration", e mails are dated. I have the E mails where Qban asked "why he can't log in"? "Why has he been removed from top poster list"? "Why he gets 30 mails a day and can't respond"? The moderators did give answers, I'll leave their names out of course.

Qban got replies, none addressing the situation just stalling around until he was finally told he was "under admin review" TEMPORARARILLY of course, not PERMANENT. But temporarily means losing poster status and being banned even though it is up for discussion and nor permanent??

Just a couple little ones like;

"I am checking withn xxxxxxxx to see if any system or other changes have been made in last 24 hours"

"I'm checking into this."

AUTORESPONDER:

I am out of the office but will be checking messages periodically"
and finally!!!!

"maybe it is time for you and WattFlyer to take a breather for a while and we can revisit your posting status. This is not a decision, but a recommendation and is open for discussion."

Just a reccomendation open for discussion but the resilt is banishment:eek:? To WHO, Qban is banned! It certainly wasn't any of the posters who like his posts, nor he. Just a couple disgruntled persons discussed this. What discussion? What did Qban have to say??

Gee, the truth. Minus a couple whiners and a couple mods who have to listen to it, EVERYONE is in Qbans corner. Hermit

Steve G
07-01-2006, 04:09 PM
Minus a couple ..... , EVERYONE is in Qbans corner.




:) Ditto what he said :)

Mike Parsons
07-01-2006, 04:20 PM
I am closing this thread. Some are looking for answers that you will never find as your conversation will be one sided. Again, I will not discuss or disclose the emails or information traded between the only affected member and staff.

I will say that your information is one sided and you are being told exactly what one person wants your to hear. Since my oath is not to disclose information and get into a he said/she said. This thread is done.