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rahtware
08-02-2006, 11:52 PM
I don't know how it will turn out, but here are some Pics of what I have so far...
This is all Did for plans:
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The center is packing foam glued up to create the internal support and open areas. The sides are 5mm Midwest foam, I got both sides out of one sheet.
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Sides masked up and ready to spray. So far all I've used is 3M Super77 spray contact cement in light coats (heavy coats melt the foam.)
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Basic fuselage glued up and ready to install internal bracing in the tail, the control rods and shape the body.
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HoggZilla
08-04-2006, 02:04 AM
I look forward to seeing the finished product. Where did you get your P&S Camera?

Thanks
Steve

rahtware
08-04-2006, 07:04 AM
I look forward to seeing the finished product. Where did you get your P&S Camera?

Thanks
Steve

Sorry this took so long...

Some time durring the Wattflyer web page update I was booted out of the system and just got back on.

I haven't gotten much more done; internal bracing in the tail, cut out the tailpieces. Then I went to use my foam bow and couldn't find all of the parts, should have it up and running tomorrow... I also need a couple of CF tubes for tail bracing and the nearest LHS that has the stuff is 25 miles away (that's mountain miles, not those namby pamby flat-lander miles!)

For the tail, as I am using the E-Cub wing, I dug out the 20 year old plans so the P&SS is starting to look a little peculiar... Kind of like a cross between a Cub, a glider and a Seabee!

rahtware
08-04-2006, 07:07 AM
Oops, forgot about the camera question...

I picked mine up at Target for $129 with a $20 rebate (found on PDs website).

I have heard that Home Depot has them for $109... I don't know if that is after the rebate or before it.

rahtware
08-04-2006, 06:23 PM
OK, so I gave up on the foam cutter and resorted to saw and power sander!

The nose isn't done, but looks OK.
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Here is the Cub tail...
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So far so... weird!
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ForestCam
08-04-2006, 06:47 PM
It looks like an old school glider.

aviatordave
08-04-2006, 07:51 PM
looks good, keep it going!

it sorta looks like Ira's 'shot getter' plane

belly land or are you putting gear on it?

Grasshopper
08-04-2006, 07:58 PM
That looks pretty cool Larry. Nice work.

rahtware
08-04-2006, 10:14 PM
looks good, keep it going!

it sorta looks like Ira's 'shot getter' plane

belly land or are you putting gear on it?

I'm going for the belly-land... I mostely fly out of grassy fields where LG is more of a problem then help. Just got back from the LHS. STICKER SHOCK!!! One 24" long piece of CF tube is now $5!:mad: I think I might switch back to spruce or balsa...

rahtware
08-04-2006, 11:27 PM
I had enough CF tube so went ahead and glued it into the trailing edges of the stabs and the leading edges of the elevators and rudder. I also glued some flat CF onto the top edges of the fuse as it was a little flexible up there. I'm now peeling glue off my fingers...

The similarity between the P&SS and the Shot Getter are mostly in the materials. I did go to a pusher on the advice of the Shot Getters designer Ira, but strayed from his design by not using landing gear and having the camera in the open "cockpit" in the top/front of the fuse. This is due to the simplicity/complexity of the Point & shoot camera. Simple in that I just turn it on, cram it into the cockpit and take off, complex in that attaching it to the plane and THEN trying to turn it on proved to be a pain. Also its shape, tall and wide (for such a small camcorder) with the lens at the top/front dictated that it be mounted on top of the plane.

Iím thinking of mounting the servos (HS-81s) in the tail, about mid tail section with the tops exposed. This would make for ease of installation and allow me to go with a pull-pull control system.

rahtware
08-05-2006, 01:09 AM
Servos are in, top (of tail boom) glued on, tail feathers glued to the tail...

Now it is off to stiching the hinges on... OK, I know I'm old fashion, but I couldn't think of any other way to hinge the CF tubes together. Next time it's going to be tape hinges with a CF spar (not on the hinge line!)

HoggZilla
08-05-2006, 01:39 AM
Wow, that is looking like a plane. Ok, time for another newbie question. How will you control the camera from the ground? Maybe I will hear from you before, but I am off to Target to check out the camera.

EDIT: Ok, I get it, I think. The Point and Shoot is a 30 minute internal storage video camera. You start recording before take off and stop upon landing. Am I correct that you take still photos from the video?

Thanks

rahtware
08-05-2006, 05:48 AM
Wow, that is looking like a plane. Ok, time for another newbie question. How will you control the camera from the ground? Maybe I will hear from you before, but I am off to Target to check out the camera.

EDIT: Ok, I get it, I think. The Point and Shoot is a 30 minute internal storage video camera. You start recording before take off and stop upon landing. Am I correct that you take still photos from the video?

Thanks

You hit it on the nosy

rahtware
08-05-2006, 05:59 AM
Rudder and elevator hinged... I will take some more pics in the AM.

Next is a final shaping and then glassing the nose. After that all I will need to do is cut a square stick to mount the motor on (GWS type of motor mount) and mount it on the fuse. I also need to install control rods on the R&E to attach the pull-pull lines to... And last, make and install the wing hold down rods...

Oh, and paint, Hummmm, I think I'll wait until after the test flight.

rahtware
08-05-2006, 06:09 AM
Something else...

The new fuse (so far) weighs 7.15 oz, that is with the servos and Rx. The glassing could add a couple of oz. But, that would still be below the 11.75oz that the old E-Cub fuse (without servos) weighed. And, that is without the 3oz of landing gear that I already took off of it!

HoggZilla
08-06-2006, 02:03 AM
Something else...

The new fuse (so far) weighs 7.15 oz, that is with the servos and Rx. The glassing could add a couple of oz. But, that would still be below the 11.75oz that the old E-Cub fuse (without servos) weighed. And, that is without the 3oz of landing gear that I already took off of it!

Are you shooting your video out the "side" of the plane. Now that I know the dimensions of the P&S can you give me an explanation, maybe a pic, of how the the camera will sit in the plane.

Thanks again, I appreciate your willingness to help others.

rahtware
08-06-2006, 03:30 PM
Are you shooting your video out the "side" of the plane. Now that I know the dimensions of the P&S can you give me an explanation, maybe a pic, of how the the camera will sit in the plane.

Thanks again, I appreciate your willingness to help others.

Well a day late... I forgot that today is "Airport Days" here so had to spend yesterday getting the house ready for guests. Got up early to install the control horns, control rods (Yes I am going with a standard push-pull setup) and take the pics that I promised.

Here is the original configuration:
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As you can see the P&S is pointing forward.

With the wing on the lines are a little cleaner although I still need to make up the foam plug that will fit in the cockpit to smooth that area up a bit.
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The BP-21 looks a bit small, but so far the RTF weight is 30 oz. As the BP should put out 20 oz of thrust I am still in the flyable range.

The reason I said "original configuration" is that I am thinking of cutting the nose down a bit more. As it is the cockpit sides interfere with the recording and I don't want to raise the camera up any more.

Launch date is planned for Tuesday down in Sonoma... Hope I make it.

ForestCam
08-06-2006, 03:54 PM
If you want to save a bit of weight the camera can be powered via the usb connector from the reciever so you could leave out the batteries.

Or you can power it off a single lipo cell. I run mine off a 750 mAh cell but I'll bet you could go a lot smaller.

rahtware
08-06-2006, 05:01 PM
If you want to save a bit of weight the camera can be powered via the usb connector from the reciever so you could leave out the batteries.

Or you can power it off a single lipo cell. I run mine off a 750 mAh cell but I'll bet you could go a lot smaller.

Great ideas.

As with all projects, this one had a set of parameters. Low cost, simple to build and operate, good camera platform (stable) and low cost! I consider this plane to be a test bed for the next version so if it is too heavy most of that will be addressed in V2. One thing I already know is that packing foam isnít a very good model building material... It is amazing how fast it dissolves when it is exposed to CA!

HoggZilla
08-06-2006, 07:40 PM
Way impressed. I see now that it is a bit wider in the opening than I first thought. It makes sense now and I can see why a rear prop and shorter nose all help.

Can't wait to hear, and see how it goes on Tuesday. Praying for good weather for you.

Steve

rahtware
08-07-2006, 03:57 PM
Late last night I finished it and got to check the CG...

It took 4oz of lead in the nose to get it to balance!!! As I don't believe in lead in planes I did the only thing left to do, cut the tail off. I cut out a 6" section and am in the process of refitting it to the plane. As the nephews are visiting I won't be able to work on it until Wed... Looks like the first flight will be next weekend.

PS I love working with sheet foam. no grain, no splitting and easy gluing!

HoggZilla
08-07-2006, 10:07 PM
Larry, where did you get your sheet foam. I got some blue foam from Lowes - a lot of it, wonder if it is the same thing you ar using???

Anyway, just in case you are involved in an RC Crash -

"Semper ubi sub ubi"

rahtware
08-08-2006, 03:17 AM
Larry, where did you get your sheet foam. I got some blue foam from Lowes - a lot of it, wonder if it is the same thing you ar using???

Anyway, just in case you are involved in an RC Crash -

"Semper ubi sub ubi"

I wish I could get some Dow fan fold!!! The closest place to me that stocks the stuff is 4 hours and two bridges away!

I bought some Midwest Cellfoam 88 from a LHS (1 1/2hr away). Not cheap either, $11 for two sheets about 1' x 4'.

rahtware
08-08-2006, 04:05 PM
Got the tail glued back on so still might make the test flight on Wed.

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HoggZilla
08-08-2006, 05:10 PM
I'm curious to know how you determined the amount to cut off the fus to shorten the tail and bring the CG where you want it.

rahtware
08-09-2006, 04:18 AM
I'm curious to know how you determined the amount to cut off the fus to shorten the tail and bring the CG where you want it.

I just took an Xacto and chopped away!!! I got lucky though as it came in almost on perfect balance.

I have to admit that I kind-a rushed through the design stage of this plane. Normally I would have laid out the equipment on a full sized piece of the side and move stuff around until it balanced. I would then make adjustments in the design to incorporate the required changes. Next I would cut out all of the parts and lay them where they would go (lay out the radio etc) and move things around, adjust the parts until I reached balance again. After all this I would glue things together.

A simpler method is to leave a very long flat area (wing saddle) on top of the fuselage so that the wing can be moved back and forth to reach balance, THEN install the wing attachment points.

rahtware
08-09-2006, 02:39 PM
It's ready!

Siliconed the servos in yesterday and put everything together (added around 1/4oz of lead to achieve a nose heavy attitude) and amazingly it all works. Waiting on the sunrise, then will see how it flies.

Already making notes for #2.

Things I don't like...
Shape of fuselage, too high.
Packing foam.
Rubber band wing hold-down.
Battery location, packed below camera, no air flow.
lousy design work and construction.

Things I like...
Working with Cellfoam 88!
Motor mount, location.
Ease/speed of construction.
Amount of space to work with radio gear.
Externally mounted servos! Installing the pushrods, a normally long and tedious job, took about 5 min!
And... Aerial Photography! I haven't had as much fun in this hobby for years.

I'm thinking of naming this plane "Hamanishiki" after one type of goldfish that looks like it has a broken tail.

HoggZilla
08-09-2006, 02:52 PM
It's ready!

Things I don't like...
Shape of fuselage, too high.
Packing foam.
Rubber band wing hold-down.
Battery location, packed below camera, no air flow.
lousy design work and construction.

Things I like...
Working with Cellfoam 88!
Motor mount, location.
Ease/speed of construction.
Amount of space to work with radio gear.
Externally mounted servos! Installing the pushrods, a normally long and tedious job, took about 5 min!
And... Aerial Photography! I haven't had as much fun in this hobby for years.

I'm thinking of naming this plane "Hamanishiki" after one type of goldfish that looks like it has a broken tail.

Great name for your plane, too bad I don't like seafood. Oh, you said goldfish, I don't eat goldfish either.

Anyway, a couple of questions about your preflight survey.

Fuselage too high, in the front? Would you mount the camera differently. You mentioned the battery is under the camera. Would it be a shorter fuselage if it only covered the camera height only? Is that what you would like?

You like the motor mount. Is it easy to balance a plane and fly one that has the prop behind the main wing? My first plane, regretably the Firebird, had that design and I hated that plane. Of course other factors to consider but do you expect it will fly similar to a front mounted engine and prop. I do like the idea of getting the prop behind the camera. :)

Thanks for your comments and can't wait for the video.

Steve

rahtware
08-09-2006, 04:03 PM
Great name for your plane, too bad I don't like seafood. Oh, you said goldfish, I don't eat goldfish either.

Anyway, a couple of questions about your preflight survey.

Fuselage too high, in the front? Would you mount the camera differently. You mentioned the battery is under the camera. Would it be a shorter fuselage if it only covered the camera height only? Is that what you would like?

You like the motor mount. Is it easy to balance a plane and fly one that has the prop behind the main wing? My first plane, regretably the Firebird, had that design and I hated that plane. Of course other factors to consider but do you expect it will fly similar to a front mounted engine and prop. I do like the idea of getting the prop behind the camera. :)

Thanks for your comments and can't wait for the video.

Steve

IT WORKED!!!

Have to get ready to take my sister to the Dr. Will post photos when we get back.

Steve
That is the plan, as high as the camera, battery in front with hatch and air flow.

The motor worked perfect! The little BP-21 (up to 21oz thrust) pushed little Haman (30oz RTF) with athority... Not fast, top speed seemed to be only about 20-25mph (draggy design), but it got it up to altitude in less than 5 min. No trouble launching or landing, throttled back to half and it climed great... Power off and it just floated...

More later.

HoggZilla
08-10-2006, 02:37 AM
IT WORKED!!!

Have to get ready to take my sister to the Dr. Will post photos when we get back.



I can't wait to see the photos.

rahtware
08-10-2006, 04:19 AM
Here are the first three...

Me (the little tiny dot in the field) in the field where I launched / landed.
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Looking East towards downtown Sonoma California...
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Looking South towards the San Francisco Bay.
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The pics are a bit hazy as they are part of a video I took at 0700..

Hope to have the vid ready to post to Putfile soon.

HoggZilla
08-10-2006, 04:43 AM
The pictures look good. Hard to believe they are video frames.

rahtware
08-10-2006, 05:04 AM
The pictures look good. Hard to believe they are video frames.Thanks

Wait until Sunday when I plan on flying over the Pacific (a small part of it that is).

Crash Test Dummy
08-10-2006, 06:31 AM
Wow Larry,

Nice job, very cool project!!

CTD

rahtware
08-10-2006, 07:43 PM
....but it got it up to altitude in less than 5 min. No trouble launching or landing, throttled back to half and it climed great... Power off and it just floated...

More later.

Man did I get that wrong! I'm working on the video and on the 2nd climb-out (from about 50') it took only 1 minute to climb to the point where I got nervous and shut the motor off!

rahtware
08-11-2006, 01:13 AM
Had to chop the video up a bit, but I wanted to leave it at full res.

The first part is climb-out... Plenty of power from that little motor.

The second part is at the top, looking south to the top of the SF Bay and Sears Point.

Third part... That white dot in the field (bottom left) is me. Landing.

I think you will be able to see why I didn't use landing gear. http://media.putfile.com/PSSv1short

Cost of materials was under $20. (plus a wing I had).

HoggZilla
08-11-2006, 02:23 AM
Very nice video. I especially like the slow gliding video. That descent is the perfect angle for good video. Very good.

Do you still plan to video the Pacific? I am excited to see that.

rahtware
08-11-2006, 04:21 AM
Very nice video. I especially like the slow gliding video. That descent is the perfect angle for good video. Very good.

Do you still plan to video the Pacific? I am excited to see that.

Sure am... One slight problem though...

I'm back up in Willits (Redwood region of N Cal)... And the plane flew so well in Sonoma I thought I would give it a try here...

Went up for a "Sunset over the coastal range" picture.
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My tight landing field... With a cross wind!
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About now I'm getting nervous.
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Heading right for it.
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Yes I hit the rock!
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rahtware
08-11-2006, 04:52 AM
Oh, you wanted to see the damage? Hummmmm

Not too bad. the tail broke on the glue line from when I reglued the tail on and where I joined the tail to the fuselage...
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I Will be flying tomorrow!

I should have known better then to fly against the evening on-shore breeze with a plane that hasn't been completely trimmed. Most of the flight was against the wind with the nose down and the power on... Add to that the tight landing strip (?) that I was using, with the crosswind... And it's a miracle that the plane wasn't totaled.

Man I LOVE foam!

HoggZilla
08-11-2006, 08:19 AM
About now I'm getting nervous.
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I like the lean. That works for me too. :)

rahtware
08-11-2006, 11:50 AM
I like the lean. That works for me too. :)

Oh that. I have a special radio with gyro stabilizers which react to the angle the radio is held...:rolleyes:

Up in the middle of the night and used up: 30 min, a bit of epoxy, a little low temp hot-melt glue and some clear packing tape. Hamani is back together and ready for an early morning flight (in a larger field!)

rahtware
08-14-2006, 05:12 AM
Here is some proof that P&SSv1 is up and flying...

The is DeHeaven beach at Westport Union Landing State Beach. About 3 miles farther north and HWY1 goes inland and ends at HWY101.
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Me trying to keep the plane out of the ocean.
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I did venture a little off shore... About 100 feet off shore that is!
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HoggZilla
08-15-2006, 06:09 AM
Here is some proof that P&SSv1 is up and flying...


None of the links will work for me?

rahtware
08-15-2006, 11:48 AM
Here is some proof that P&SSv1 is up and flying...

The is DeHeaven beach at Westport Union Landing State Beach. About 3 miles farther north and HWY1 goes inland and ends at HWY101.
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Me trying to keep the plane out of the ocean.
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I did venture a little off shore... About 100 feet off shore that is!
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I think I've figured it out...

HoggZilla
08-15-2006, 03:32 PM
Very cool. You would need more than floats to land in that water.

How far is that from where you live?

rahtware
08-15-2006, 04:53 PM
Very cool. You would need more than floats to land in that water.

How far is that from where you live?

I live 35 miles from the coast. Where I took the pics is another 20 miles up the coast... The round trip includes coming home the long way.
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rahtware
08-15-2006, 05:13 PM
A short video of the area where I was flying, the coastal bluffs and... What else TREES. As you will see this was a foggy day on the coast.
http://media.putfile.com/Westport-ULSP

The video starts pointing north and then swings south. The beach with the bridge is Dehaven, great place to throw net when the surf fish are running. The paved road is Hwy 1... The rest of it is a twisty mess! The house on the ridge is new, the dirt road is an old landing strip!

HoggZilla
08-15-2006, 07:55 PM
Fishing and Flying sounds like a good way to spend the day. Do you have any specific plans for video now that your plane is flying?

rahtware
08-16-2006, 12:35 AM
HZ

As I was getting into this, I thought I would try to set up an AP business taking pictures of houses, but I have all but given up on that.

Flying out at the coast was fun... Being able to see the cliffs and beaches from a different perspective was exciting, so short term plans are to do more of that. As I trim out the plane and get better at reading the wind I would like to take some wave-top flights over the beaches.

My next shot I am planning is a cliff run. I also have a remote, rocky beach in mind... On one side is the ocean and on the other is a 1000' cliff! This is after I get more confident because the beach is hard to get down to if my bird goes in.

HoggZilla
08-16-2006, 12:47 AM
That sounds like an exciting video, zooming the side of a cliff and clipping the tops of waves. In Florida, we have plenty of beaches to shoot but everything is FLAT! No fun there. Oh, and I don't think anywhere is "remote" in Florida. If there is a beach, people are there.

On the other subject, why did the AP business not work for you? I would be curious because it is something I am considering in the future.

rahtware
08-16-2006, 02:33 AM
The reality of how hard it is to take that "perfect" picture that a person would be willing to buy set in. I have to admit that I am in this hobby to have fun and relax. All of a sudden it started to sound a lot like work!:D

rahtware
08-20-2006, 03:18 AM
I have uploaded a couple of videos to Putfile. The first one was taken during a loop, rudder roll and a couple of tight turns... All done in the slow motion way that the P&SS flies. The second one shows a skid landing. I was wrong when I said that it skids 10 feet, most of the time it stops it 2 feet or less!

http://media.putfile.com/What-can-a-PSS-do

http://media.putfile.com/PSS-landing

rahtware
08-21-2006, 05:37 PM
End of this thread???

Version one has officially flown its last flight, The R&D phase is over and I need the gear to finish version two. In all I consider this to have been a successful plane as I found out that the cheap BP-21 motor can push a plane that is large enough to lift a Point & Shoot camcorder to useable heights. I also discovered that I needed to move the P&S farther away from the motor/radio to eliminate the "waves" that were showing up when I used the P&S on my Slow Stick.

Thanks for the interest shown in this project.

Mr.Pibb
08-22-2006, 05:09 PM
Those videos are great. I'm assuming this is the same camera as the RCA version:
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16830125001
right?
Did you mod the camera in any way or are you using it stock? I know that this camera is similar to the single use cameras folks are hacking and I was curious if it works this good without going to the trouble of updating internal settings! The video quality looks better than my tiny eDVR 5-in-1 (compressed sample here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4596443816742503528&hl=en )

Also, I'm haven't been able to find the dimensions of that camera, how big is it and do you know approximately how much it weighs?

Thanks!

rahtware
08-22-2006, 08:51 PM
I think Iím going to have to order one of thoseÖ It looks exactly like as the P&S!

And $50 less then I paid (havenít received the $20 rebate yet).

As far as the specifications, here is what I have:

Camera by it self is 93gms; with two AA batteries it is 142gms. It is 4Ē tall X 2 3/8Ē wide X 1 ľĒ thick at the lens. I havenít been able to get any information on it, but it has enough memory to hold the firmware and 30min of video at 640 X 480.

I donít know how they do it but the resolution seems better than the other cameras, that I have tried, that have clamed the same resolution. It is so simple to operate and the videos good enough that it is the only camera that I brought along when we took the G-kids to the tide pools yesterday.

I am using it stock, as it is as good as the returnables that have been hacked. Even with the AAs it is light enough for my BP-21 to lift reasonable well.

I like the simplicity of; putting it in the plane, pushing the power button, pushing the start (/stop) button and taking off! When it lands I push the stop button and am done.

Uploading to the computer involves little more than plugging it into the computer. The best part is that the firmware looks like it was engineered specifically for this camera, not an after thought.