is control line considered flying?

[nova801428]

Is control line considered flying? because I can hook up a string to a helicopter and call it control heli.

[buzzbomber]

You'd have a bunch of angry control liners if you told them they weren't flying! Ain't as easy as if looks, either--trust me.

[debhicks]

Good luck. Ever tried tying a string to the behind of a bumble bee? :)

[Blob_master]

I used to do a lot of Control Line combat flying. For those who don’t know what I am talking about its when you and your opponent attach a ribbon to the back of your respective plane, and you and the opponent stand in the middle and fly your models round each other trying to cut the each others ribbon. It sounds simple but the models were extremely responsive, the ground was always very close and you had to make sure that your opponents and your control wires don’t end up in a knot.


In those days the models were all made from plans from Balsa, covered with nylon and doped. On average the models used to last only a few competitions before either the ground came up and hit it, or the opponent’s model missed the ribbon and went through your model. I used to often go home with a nylon bag full of bits.


One thing I would say though it was defiantly flying!!!

Paul.

[BillM]

Most competitors in C/L Combat would show up at a contest with a half dozen models and go home with none.
I used to fly a combat wing just for fun. A four minute flight with a combat wing seemed like an eternity. The controls are VERY sensitive to say the least. Nothing short of Pylon Racing in R/C can come close.

BM

[ragbag]

Let them do an hour glass and not go over 50-60 foot in the air.

Todays foamies and 3-D pilots could do it but most others couldn't. My Voodoo was clocked at 125 MPH on 52 foot lines. The only place we had to fly after Dade county closed the parks to model airplanes was the football field. One football field and two circles. 100 yards is 300 feet. It was silk and dope when I was doing it and we used real Ambroid glue, didn't realize I was sniffing it!!!!

They had just "invented" monocoat when I had quit flying, looked like junk and would never last they said.

The Voodoo was a flying wing, my combat plane. My favorite was the Flite Streak and the Nobler was my stunt plane, it would do an hour glass with an Enya 29. The Flying Fool was my Sunday flyer, a biplane, did touch and goes with it. Everything had Enya 29's except the Voodo, it was a crankcase pressureized ball bearing Fox 36.

Oh yes, we did call it flying. :cool:
By George

[BillM]

ragbag
You bring back many memories. My engine of choice was the reliable Fox.35 and I had a bunch of 'em. Loved the Flying Fool. Somehow it caught fire. Couldn't see flames--just watched the balsa turn black. Nitro flames are invisible. I still have a Double Voodoo kit somewhere in my shop. It must be 25 years old. My favorite for just banging around the circle was the Ringmaster. I still have the last one I built. Remember the Midwest Profile Fighters. I had every one but my favorite was the P40. They all flew the same but the P40 just looked mean. I also flew the Midwest Magician for a long time. It was black with gold trim and had --you guessed it--a Fox.35 up front. I also built the Goldberg racers--Shoestring was one but I don't remember the other. I even tried to put R/C gear into a Shoestring. It flew but it was far too much airplane for me at the time.
I remember those days well. Thanks for the trip down memory lane

BM

[N3CLI]

Those were the days, lots of fun for sure!

Snitched one of my Mom's silk scarf's to cover it. Water to shrink it tight and Aerogloss dope when it dried. She alway's asked me where her scarf went!

Had a Jim Walker hand piece that allowed you to roll the line in or let it out at will. That was really neat.

Power Mist fuel in a green can, castor oil and lots of nitro. Loved the smell when it burned in the Fox.

Had an OK Herkimer .074 that had the tank built on the engine for small planes.

Sterling Models was in Philadelphia , my home town. Made the ringmaster balsa kits and many more of all sizes.

WOW- THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF FLYING!

Fred:D

[Elfwreck]

Hey now,
"Those were the days", Hah! They're still the days. Hanging in the sjop right now and ready to fly are:
Flite Streak with an O.S Max H.35
Sig Acromaster with an O.S. .25fp
Sig Twister with a Fox .40 schnurele
and even an old Top Flite Baby Flite Streak with an AME .061 on surgical tubing.
Ukies are alive and well in Oakland Ca. There's a dedicated ukie field "Bill Osborne memorial flying field" not three miles from my home.
And it's *crowded* on the weekends.
If you think ukies are easy to fly try doing a complete flight below sixty feet, don't even have to try an hour glass, just try three consecutive loops at 80 mph at 5'-20' high.
Me? I'm a model ****, I'll fly anything with wings...
RobII

[fuelectric]

Let them do an hour glass and not go over 50-60 foot in the air.

Todays foamies and 3-D pilots could do it but most others couldn't. My Voodoo was clocked at 125 MPH on 52 foot lines. The only place we had to fly after Dade county closed the parks to model airplanes was the football field. One football field and two circles. 100 yards is 300 feet. It was silk and dope when I was doing it and we used real Ambroid glue, didn't realize I was sniffing it!!!!

They had just "invented" monocoat when I had quit flying, looked like junk and would never last they said.

The Voodoo was a flying wing, my combat plane. My favorite was the Flite Streak and the Nobler was my stunt plane, it would do an hour glass with an Enya 29. The Flying Fool was my Sunday flyer, a biplane, did touch and goes with it. Everything had Enya 29's except the Voodo, it was a crankcase pressureized ball bearing Fox 36.

Oh yes, we did call it flying. :cool:
By George Not sure how to reply, hope this works! Have1/2 double voodo kit 15 feet from me right now! Some day.... Have ? year old Flitestreak hanging from ceiling in up bathroom w/ McCOY 35. Still in flying condition! Isn't this supposed to be a site for electric only!!!!! Oh well! Ever have a...Ithink it was called ..combat cat?

[flypaper 2]

Used to fly the Combat Cats. I think they came three in a box. Super tigre G21-35 was my engine choice. Had a U Reely back then.Flew some of the Indian series, Tomahawk etc.

[Elfwreck]

Hey now,
Ah the Combat Cat; two to a box, quick to build, fun to fly. We used to mix Cat wings with Flite Streak fuses for WAM slow combat, a litle bit faster and turned quicker too... Can't foreget the Combat Kittens for 1/2A combat either, thought we were hot stuff with one of those and a TeeDee .049 on pen bladder, I'd love to try one with a Norvell engine or to make it propper for an "E" forum a rewound CD rom motor and LiPos.
How do I get the ESC to work without a radio? This sounds like fun, most of the local ukie pilots are Ludites...
RobII

[stuff]

Time to place an Axi on one of these old planes with padded lipos in the wing and a new castle controller and mini rx.plus 2 servos R&E (.A ) One person hangs on the lines while the one holding the radio surprises him.Or(B) stand outside the circle and fly it tethered to a bearing on a pole.A 70 foot line means you could fly on a lot 150ft square. I bet it would be harder to do than the old way of U Reely flying. Stuff

[proptop]

I keep thinking about getting back to my roots, so to speak :)

I still have a PDQ Clown in my upstairs closet. It was built in the late 50's by my model airplane "mentor"...(I wish he was still around :( )
I also flew a Ringmaster, a Goldberg Shoestring stunter, and Buster...
Still have my McCoy's and Foxes, and one of these days...:)

I keep eyeing that TF Nobler ARF for $89.99

Now all I gotta do is find my lines and handle! :)


And...to answer the question...YES!

[Elfwreck]

Hey now,
Sullivan and Sig both sell control lines and handles, although I prefer to make my own handles. No excuses! Go spin in a circle till you fall down:D
If you build the Nobeler ARF beef up the belcrank mount, I've heard some horror stories.:eek:
On the radio front; I've got a Fancy Pants converted to R/C electric. Astro 15G, APC 12-8 prop, CC 35 amp esc, TP4200 3s2p. Rudder, elevator, aileron, and it flies surprisingly well; loops, rolls, inverted, and even knife edge (yes, with the "stock" rudder).
I go back and forth on the name, either "No Strings" or "Dual conversion".
I'm practicing flying in a 120' circle smoothly and evenly, at some point I want to fly it at the ukie fields and simulate a line break (how many heart attacks can *you* cause on a sunday morning?)
RobII

[50+AirYears]

Wow, a nostalgia trip if I ever saw one. Still have more CL planes ready to go than I do RC. CL is definitely flying. As far as doing an hourglass in 60 feet or less, for competition, think of the distance from the bellcrank pivot to the center of the handle being measured at about 60 feet, then fly a 60 ounce 60 powered model through the hourglass in front of judges who are looking for things like entering from a 1.5 foot altitude, climbing out to inverted level flight at the top of the circle, keeping the intersection centered at the mid altitude, and then pulling out at the 1.5 meter level.

That's part of what's called precision aerobatics. That's definitely flying. And you can really feel everything that your planes doing.

[Elfwreck]

Hey now,
I never could get my wife interested in flying r/c, she claims they're just expesnive video games:eek: . However when I took her ukie flying she fell in love with it. she has a direct line to the model it's *visceral*she can feel the pull of the plane, the vibration of the engine, all the feedback we don't get with r/c. Who knew?
RobII

[Denarky]

I keep thinking about getting back to my roots, so to speak :)

I still have a PDQ Clown in my upstairs closet. It was built in the late 50's by my model airplane "mentor"...(I wish he was still around :( )
I also flew a Ringmaster, a Goldberg Shoestring stunter, and Buster...
Still have my McCoy's and Foxes, and one of these days...:)

I keep eyeing that TF Nobler ARF for $89.99

Now all I gotta do is find my lines and handle! :)


And...to answer the question...YES!And I realize y'all aren't predisposed to talking about line control flight much, but I'll ask my question and be prepared to be roundly attacked for my tardiness on this thread! Proptop....maybe you can make this a painless transition if you could just point me in the direction of an S1 Ringmaster....it can be wrecked or just a plan that has stencil or realsize patterns for ribs, leading edge and fuselage the rest I'm sure I can replicate! I humble myself before you "Real Flyers" and will sign off. Thanks for any help~Denarky:)

[BillM]

I just found a shop that stocks Ukie gear. It is--believe it or not--a gun shop where the owner started to fly control line models. When he couldn't find any equipment locally he decided to stock it himself. He doesn't have a lot of stuff but he has enough to get you started.

BM

[Tailspin Ken]

Ahhh, 1772. Not much money but I wanted to fly a model plane. Goldberg balsa profile plane was2.50. My favorite was a bipe called " Little Toot". Engine was $4.99, can of fuel was $3.00, I think. You could put one of these together in an hour. Line and handle...$1.00.
I had a lot of fun flying them in the school parking lot. The most exciting thing that ever happend was when the line broke and the plane was in free flight mode!
My wife even built one . She decorated it in some shiny sparkle material. She flew it pretty well. We had a lot of fun with those planes. And yes, they could be a handful!
Ken

[slipstick]

maybe you can make this a painless transition if you could just point me in the direction of an S1 Ringmaster....it can be wrecked or just a plan that has stencil or realsize patterns for ribs, leading edge and fuselage the rest I'm sure I can replicate!
You might already have found this but the real C/L flyers, even those who fly electrics, tend to hang out at http://www.clstunt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

You'll have a better chance of some serious answers over there ;).

Steve

[ragbag]

I used to do a lot of Control Line combat flying. For those who don’t know what I am talking about its when you and your opponent attach a ribbon to the back of your respective plane, and you and the opponent stand in the middle and fly your models round each other trying to cut the each others ribbon. It sounds simple but the models were extremely responsive, the ground was always very close and you had to make sure that your opponents and your control wires don’t end up in a knot.


In those days the models were all made from plans from Balsa, covered with nylon and doped. On average the models used to last only a few competitions before either the ground came up and hit it, or the opponent’s model missed the ribbon and went through your model. I used to often go home with a nylon bag full of bits.


One thing I would say though it was defiantly flying!!!

Paul.

When I was flying combat it was silk and dope, they had that new stuff called monocoat or something like that. Never used it, was too easy to punch a hole in. Lady proved that at the Orange Blossom Hoby shop, they had a wing covered to show the customers. She poked her finger at it and her nail went through it. That was all I and a lot of others need to see.

Mine was called a Voodoo, ball bearing fox 36, pressurized fuel tank, clipped 9x6 prop.

Thats about when I quit "flying" combat. Mine was clocked at about 125 mph. Didn't have these newfangled things we have today, so it was calculated with a stopwatch....
The ground was close, we flew on 52' lines. Dade county stopped us from flying in the parks and let us fly in one of the stadiums. Figger 100 yards, two circles. That was before they made Tamiami airport a model flying field, never flew there, left Miami about then.:)


The LIttle Toot was a cute little bugger. Did him too.

/.

[ragbag]

The Flitestreak ARF is sitting in the corner waiting for me to convert it to RC. Back in the sixties,when I went flying for fun I took my sunday flier, the Flitestreak, if not I took the Sterling Flying Fool.

Most of the craft mentioned in this thread I have had and flown. The man who gave me the Nobler kit partily finished flew the hourglass for me. He flew in the King Orange International when it was in held Miami.

.

[proptop]

And I realize y'all aren't predisposed to talking about line control flight much, but I'll ask my question and be prepared to be roundly attacked for my tardiness on this thread! Proptop....maybe you can make this a painless transition if you could just point me in the direction of an S1 Ringmaster....it can be wrecked or just a plan that has stencil or realsize patterns for ribs, leading edge and fuselage the rest I'm sure I can replicate! I humble myself before you "Real Flyers" and will sign off. Thanks for any help~Denarky:)

Gee, I wish I could help ya there, but I gave my Ringmaster to my nephew many many moons ago...and I don't know but I think I gave him the box and plans too...sorry

[ragbag]

Gee, I wish I could help ya there, but I gave my Ringmaster to my nephew many many moons ago...and I don't know but I think I gave him the box and plans too...sorry


I had a little problem with alkyhol back then, so I hung with some local teenagers, no peer pressure there, like stopping on the way home for a cold one.
For some reason they all liked the Ring Master, .15 size.
Actualy, they found me, heard me breaking in a new Enya and came looking. Kids were a lot different back then.

I played with anything I could get my hands on, towline and free flight.
Couldn't afford RC then.

If you reread the first line you will understand the need.


.

.

[feathermerchant]

FYI My dad and I converted an old profile stunt ship the Tanager to electric very simply. A piece of Al angle bolted to the glow motor mount, an AXI 28/28/10, a 3S 4200 pack, an APCE 11X6 (?), a Phoenix 45 controller and a really neat device from a guy in France that acts as a timer and throttle to run the ESC. Plug in the battery, push the button and it takes off. flys for the time you've set, burps twice then quits. The 28/20/10 can turn an APCE 10X6 at just about the same RPM (10,000) on 3S as a good Fox 35. We throttled it back a bit to get ~5sec lap times and it worked great.

[Elfwreck]

Hey now,
I don't have any Ringmaster parts laying around. My Ringmaster has been chopped for balloon bust. But I do have a Super Ringmaster in a box on the shelf, along with a couple hundred other old kits...
Have you looked at Stucka Stunt works? They have links to free and nearly free plans at their site.
Estes/Sterling does make a Ringmaster, but it isn't the old S-1, they've changed the wing a fair bit so it isn't "vintage legal" but it does look right and flys well.
RobII

[50+AirYears]

I just happen to have a kit for the original Ringmaster, the modernized Ringmaster, and a Super Ringmaster. Also a Sterling Crop Duster (Stearman Bipe), Flying Fool, Viper, and a Waco Bipe.

Control line is the closest modelers come to really flying, since it is the only form of model flying in which the pilot has a physical connection to his aircraft, similar to what the pilot of a full size plane experiences sitting in the pilot's seat.

But, I love all forms of model flying.

[ragbag]

I just happen to have a kit for the original Ringmaster, the modernized Ringmaster, and a Super Ringmaster. Also a Sterling Crop Duster (Stearman Bipe), Flying Fool, Viper, and a Waco Bipe.

Control line is the closest modelers come to really flying, since it is the only form of model flying in which the pilot has a physical connection to his aircraft, similar to what the pilot of a full size plane experiences sitting in the pilot's seat.

But, I love all forms of model flying.

The Sterling Flying Fool, it was the first kit I built. My daughter sat on it before I could fly it.:(
Knowing what I know now I am surprised that I ever learned how to fly.

I didn't have anyone except the hobby shop owner to advise me and I took it from there. And a lot of reading, still do that.

\Nowadays I often wonder if it could be RC, even electric RC.:D
I do have a hangup for two wing planes.:)



.

[max-nix]

Jim Walker patented the bell crank and every kit maker that used this system had to pay him a royalty. He literaly invented control line flying. I can remember in the 40s seeing a picture of JW flying his twin float equiped Ohleson 23 powered Fireball inverted while wearing fishing boots. :eek:
I have not seen that trick repeated since then.

Jim Walker also hovered his Fireball and would break a baloon with the pin in the tail of his plane, so hovering is not as new as some would think. :D

For a throttle he used two needle valves in the venturi, one was turned off & on electrically through insulated control lines.He had a button on his handle and by blipping it he could 4 cycle the engine to control the thrust.

These are just a few highlights of his most amazing modeling career.;)

[Gumby flies !]

:)
Ahhhh ..... I guess I don't go back quite that far ..... but I was reminiscing about the ole control line days just last summer .... A friend of mine bought his son a Cox Piper and he wanted me to show them how to fly it ..... So I said SURE !! Fill her up and let's have at it !! I was flying pretty well (although I didn't try anything tricky) when all of a sudden it dawned on me (in a BIG way) that I hadn't spun around that many times in about 30 years !! I managed to run out the tank and land it safely, but the minute it touched down I fell right on my butt in the grass while the clouds overhead just kept right on spinning !! ! But I was smiling so big I just didn't care ! So I decided to go out online and see if I could find what was my first CL plane .... the Cox PT19 trainer ! What a great ole plane that was !! All rubber bands holding it together .... Man, I crashed that thing so many times !! And I don't think I ever had to order a spare part for it .... I soon found out it had been discontinued .... I remember getting bit by that ole .049 more than once before I put the snap starter on it .... I was probably 12 or 13 years old ? Always had a rag on hand 'cause the fool thing would start backwards about half the time ! And it had a slot cut in the bellcrank .... you'd pound a nail into the ground and tie a string with a paperclip on it to the nail, fire the trusty .049, hook the clip to the bellcrank and run back to the center of the circle for your handle .... a little "down" elevator popped the clip off and you were ROG !! If it hadn't already popped off by the time you got back to your handle !! HAHA .... that happened more than once ! Just about to grab up the handle and ZIP ! off it would go bouncing across the field !

OMG !! I remember setting a sheet of Dad's plywood up on an old chaise longue and pretending I was taking off from an aircraft carrier deck !!:) And tying ballons to goldenrod sticks then trying to dive and pop them ! Man, those were fun days !!

I moved up to a Lil Wizard after that, still .049, and got into some serious stunting for a while ..... then we started flirting with combat and wrecked most of our planes in short order !! I guess we got interested in model rockets after that and the years just went on by .... but now I'm starting to dabble in R/C and it's just as much fun as it was back then !! I'm a lot more nervous without the strings attached somehow, though !!

[feathermerchant]

The variable throttle Walker used was most likely a second set of points.
No glow in those days.
One set is ~top dead center and one is advanced. By switching between the two you can control the RPM.

He did fly 3 CL models at once though. My dad saw it. One handle in each hand and one on a helmet strapped to his head.

[50+AirYears]

Love that Flying Fool. A friend of mine had a scratch built FF from the original magazine article. Flew better than the Sterling kit. Of course, it was built with decent balsa, not the disguised oak that Sterling seemed to die crush their kits from. Looked a bit different behind the cockpit. His had a Fox Baffle 25. When I built mine from a Sterling kit, I drilled the mount for a Fox 35, then would switch between that and the Fox 19. Couldn't tell the difference in the way it flew. One of it's strengths was the Sabre Dance. At the bottom of a loop, I could just pull full UP elevator, and just hang on the prop until I fed in a touch of down. Or I could cycle a few times between up and down, then pull the up. With either engine, a 4.5 ounce Perfect wedge tank gave me a lot of flying time on 60' .015 lines. Somebody also gave me a basket case FF that I intend to rebuild, maybe for a Fox 25 BB.

I also recently got a copy of the original (full fuselage) Ringmaster from the AMA plans service.

Wish I didn't need to sleep. That's 6 to 8 hours wasted time a day I could be building, which would give me that much more time during the day light hours to fly. And more planes!

Flying CL is DEFINITELY flying!!!!!

[crast test dummie]

My Dad flew CL and I have seen guys fly combat. Talk about nerves of steel!!:eek: :eek: :eek: !! It all happens soooo fast. I fly wings at close to 100 MPH and that is slow by comparison when you are just a few feet off of terra frima!!

CTD

[elgreko]

clbringa back a lot of memories.... many years ago i had my first plane , my first moter was a delong 29.... it ran on unleaded gas ,wgich we would get at the local amaco station.. late at night by tipping the hose ...when glow plugs came ot it was the best thing that happened for cl FLYING i also had a diesal engine ,did not fly well....i would likr to get into electric control line FLYING...any help would be welcomed elgreco

[crast test dummie]

Electric CL seems to be just getting started. I have seen some articles in MA. I wish I could help ya but I don't really know anything about it. There is a forum at RCG that is all about CL. Check there. I'm not sure if wattflyer has a CL forum.

CTD

[50+AirYears]

Check also Stuka Stunt forums at www.clstunt.com (http://www.clstunt.com), and some others at: www.epgworld.com/forum (http://www.epgworld.com/forum), http://onlycontroline.vf11.com/onlycontroline-about25.html, http://clflyer.tripod.com/. There might also be other CL websites. Also RC Groups and RC Universe have CL forums.

[max-nix]

The variable throttle Walker used was most likely a second set of points.
No glow in those days.
One set is ~top dead center and one is advanced. By switching between the two you can control the RPM.

He did fly 3 CL models at once though. My dad saw it. One handle in each hand and one on a helmet strapped to his head.
I saw the first glow plugs at the East-West meet in Saint Louis, 1947. Ray Arden flew his speed ship there. They used gas, 70 wt. oil & nitro propane as fuel.

[Old Man]

Oh the memories. I flew control line for years. It was all .049 stuff because of the amount of space that I had to fly but it was still big fun. I had four friends that flew control line as well. We played around with some Cox stuff but usually we built balsa kits or scratch built our planes.

We are getting ready to move and while I was cleaning out the basement I found two little wizard kits. One of them is still sealed.

I still laugh when I think about the engine falling off of my friends little wizard, while he was flying. His poor little black widow flew about 60' before it hit a mail box. Or the time we flew five planes in the same circle.

[TLyttle]

All us Old Dudes flew c/l, didn't we? I learned on a Firebaby with a Spitzy 045 up front, then a Joy products Stunt Runt. I must have built a dozen of them, and had a total blast with them, even with a Cub 049. The Cub was all sound and no fury...

Later, I went over to diesels, and built a Ringmonster as light as I could, ie, one wheel, tissue covering, etc, and used a few of my engines including an ED 2.46 and an Eta Elite on 52' lines.

My favourite c/l model of all time was a ME110 profile (52" span, two 2.46 EDs, Aeromodeller plan); what a machine! It would do all the round manoevers on one engine; both engines running would lengthen your arm, and you could anything you could invent.

Had another profile biplane (F3B? FM plan, I think) with the Eta power, and it would do a "fiddle": come out of a loop, pull into a loop, second loop pull full up, and it would hover... for a second or two. Good airplane.

Is it flying!? Once you get away from the "rock on a string" models (Cox plastics, etc), it takes considerable skill to FLY a c/l model...

[Denarky]

All us Old Dudes flew c/l, didn't we? I learned on a Firebaby with a Spitzy 045 up front, then a Joy products Stunt Runt. I must have built a dozen of them, and had a total blast with them, even with a Cub 049. The Cub was all sound and no fury...

Later, I went over to diesels, and built a Ringmonster as light as I could, ie, one wheel, tissue covering, etc, and used a few of my engines including an ED 2.46 and an Eta Elite on 52' lines.

My favourite c/l model of all time was a ME110 profile (52" span, two 2.46 EDs, Aeromodeller plan); what a machine! It would do all the round manoevers on one engine; both engines running would lengthen your arm, and you could anything you could invent.

Had another profile biplane (F3B? FM plan, I think) with the Eta power, and it would do a "fiddle": come out of a loop, pull into a loop, second loop pull full up, and it would hover... for a second or two. Good airplane.

Is it flying!? Once you get away from the "rock on a string" models (Cox plastics, etc), it takes considerable skill to FLY a c/l model..........inverted!~Denarky

[qban_flyer]

I would sincerely hope so. :)

There are many Control Line clubs still in existence. Control Line is how I cut my teeth into aeromodeling, back in the 1950s. :eek: