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Kosh
08-28-2006, 07:59 AM
I have toyed with the idea for some time now but after a few other threads I had to try them. The flaps are just some thin plywood 9" long by 2" wide power by 1 servo. I just taped the flaps on and used shoo goo to mount the servo not knowing if I would keep them on. The push rods are just a simple Y with a heat shrink holding them together thats seems ok.

I tested the wing on a SS body first flight to see how it would handle. Knowing it would nose up when deployed I went to 100' and hit the switch. Nose pitched up but not too bad and was easy to adjust with elevator. The plane would almost stop in the air but still be controllable.
Moved wing to MagpieAP without the camera on board and the video shows the flight.

Needs lots more testing but its just what I'm looking for as it can now land with power on and stop dead in its tracks. I haven't tried different throws but will plug it into the rudder next time so I can use just what I need to slow down. I think 7" to 8" long and 1.5" wide would be plenty big and I will cut mine down as I test more. I'm sure this would work well with some mixing also and there are lots of ways to make it happen.

I will keep you updated as I get more flight time on the flaps but as of now there not coming off. I can see a big payoff for landing in those tight areas that I might otherwise pass up.

Video of flaps in action and landing: (Please right click and "Save target as")

Broadband: http://www.cascadeap.com/Flaps.wmv 21.9mb

Dailup: http://www.cascadeap.com/Flaps1.wmv 1.68mb


Kosh

Warden
08-28-2006, 11:42 AM
Kosh, Looks good! by the way, thanks for providing the "dial-up" version of the video for those of us who are still stuck in the dark ages.

Grasshopper
08-28-2006, 02:26 PM
That looks GREAT Kosh!!!!!! I can't wait to see what you end up with on the Magpie. That's about the only issue I have with mine is the roll out space needed on landing. It's not bad on grass but on pavement, it takes a little space. Was there much wind while taking the video?

Thanks for posting,

Tom

aviatordave
08-28-2006, 04:17 PM
Good job. I'll try too. I dont think I will have to much a prob with my ESC as it was designed to handle 3 micro servos. The prism cant take much current and I wouldnt be triggering it anyways as I am landing. I'll post my pics & results here as well. Thanks for being the tester on this.

Dave

(I will be using my flap dial so I will try different degrees of throw)

Kosh
08-28-2006, 07:44 PM
Thanks guys, These were only rough tests but they did prove very effective. I'm sure you can come up with something better on your planes.
The wind was blowing 6 to 7mph and I had no camera on the plane so results will vary with more weight added. All in all I think some form flaps can only help as they don't have to be deployed for every landing and just used when needed. Here 2 pics of my first try, the 6mm dupron was too thick and would have caused some drag so I went with the ply. 3mm foam might work ok but I think it might be a little flimsy.

Bbog100
08-28-2006, 11:04 PM
Excellent !!! Hopefully this will solve my back yard landing problems, small landing area with to many trees. The landing area looked big enough untill I attempted to land. Here is a video of my last try.

http://media.putfile.com/

Kosh
08-29-2006, 02:08 AM
Hi Bbog and welcome to Wattflyer, Great video and other than the street there wasn't much of a place to land. I'm guessing nothing was hurt to bad in that rather abrupt unplanned stop? Hope to see a few pics from you in future AP contests. :)

aviatordave
08-29-2006, 02:19 AM
Whoa Bbog.......that was entertaining...good music too. Hope your plane lives for another urban sortie.

Dave

Ira
08-29-2006, 05:13 AM
Looks great Kosh! Hope you don't mind if I steal that idea ;) That would help a lot with just the kind of jobs that go to Magie. The tight tough LZ ones. Oh and now I know why my local hobby shop is out of rubber bands :D Ira

Kosh
08-29-2006, 05:27 AM
Thats the whole idea of posting it here Ira so others can try ot out. You wont have any problem adding them to your planes and making it work right. It will pitch up on you but is easy to counter the effects. When I first tested the wing on a SS it was coming in at walking speed and still easy to control. The camera weight should really help it and I will do more tests this weekend weather permitting. There are only 4 rubberbands on the wing but it does look like I bought out the state. :D

Ira
08-29-2006, 05:53 AM
When it pitches up is the nose still level? Are you countering with up or down ele?

aviatordave
08-29-2006, 05:54 AM
Kosh - did you ever hone your hand catching the magpie...would the flaps help for this?

Kosh
08-29-2006, 06:28 AM
When it pitches up is the nose still level? Are you countering with up or down ele?

Without power the nose will pitch up and little ele down will correct it and it settles into a shallow glide without much input. Keeping the power on it will pitch up more but settle down into a nose hi alfa. The first pass on video is at 1/4 throttle and the second is power off.

Kosh - did you ever hone your hand catching the magpie...would the flaps help for this?

To tell you the truth just the weight of the plane and the speed it would land at keeps me from gabbing it. I'm afraid the sudden stop would do more damage than letting it run long and hit bushes or trees. The few times I tried it I snapped rubber bands and broke the camera mount. Flaps should make this a simple matter now as you can fly it into your hand. My plan was to use flaps to just scrub off speed as there really just a big air brake.

HoggZilla
08-29-2006, 06:46 AM
I love the flaps, it looks like floating.

Me not knowing much about flaps, would it be more stable with the flaps either longer or more towards the outer edges of the wings? Does it matter?

I will be adding flaps to my camera plane.

Kosh
08-29-2006, 07:14 AM
I'm by no means any expert on this but real planes have the flap close to the fuse. Close in means only 1 servo and out on the wing tips may mean 2. I also think it would be more likely to tip stall on the wing tips or full length flaps for that matter. Theres a trade off on how big you make them, Bigger means more nose pitch. There also the option of adding a servo delay like for scale landing gear. This would let them deploy slowly so any sudden change wouldn't be noticeable on a video.

Ira
08-29-2006, 04:13 PM
I was just thinking you could use the radios mixing to add a bit of up ele and avoid having to "hold it in". I've done this on larger planes in the past. I have done a hand catch on the Pie but it is right on the edge of safe and I will only do it as a last resort. What seems to work best is to briskly walk with it and as you grab the the wing near the end kind of spin it around yourself. Like a glider discus launch in reverse. I think it is better to just put the landing gear to use :D Ira

Eric_N57105
08-30-2006, 05:45 AM
I'm by no means any expert on this but real planes have the flap close to the fuse. Close in means only 1 servo and out on the wing tips may mean 2. I also think it would be more likely to tip stall on the wing tips or full length flaps for that matter. Theres a trade off on how big you make them, Bigger means more nose pitch. There also the option of adding a servo delay like for scale landing gear. This would let them deploy slowly so any sudden change wouldn't be noticeable on a video.

One primary purpose of flaps, as you know, is to allow a steeper descent without excess airspeed. So just like full-scale, I think you need to push the stick forward and establish the glide and airspeed you want and don't let the nose pitch up at all. I don't know why an RC plane would be any different than full scale.

On the other hand, you might eliminate a lot of the adverse effects shown in the video by turning the flaps into spoilers. It would be a very easy change. It would be very interesting to see the differences between flaps and spoilers on that wing. Glider pilots prefer spoilers to flaps because of less inclination to tip stall.

Eric
www.ke6us.com

Kosh
08-30-2006, 06:04 AM
When I move the servo to the rudder it will be easy to check both ways and I will report back.

Don E
09-02-2006, 10:37 PM
Having been inspired by your success. I decided Id give it a try too. So I stopped by the LHS on the way home and got some 1/8 x 1 balsa strips, two GWS picos, a Y harness and some control horns. Cut the strips to almost 9 covered to match, and taped them on. Used some FFF to make a flange to mount the servos. (Just for looks) Then hooked em up.

Got the chance to try them today, and Id Like to say: Kosh, You da Man.

With the flaps down I needed a 25% down elevator mix to keep it from ballooning up when they are deployed.

This is my first experience with flaps. So far, I like it.

I tried spoilers. Either I dont know how use them properly, or they just dont work well on the Magpie. With the flaps, the plane would just slow down and become more stable. I could ascend or descend slowly and almost level. With the spoilers, the plane descended quickly but seemed to become very unstable, especially in pitch. So I turned them off.

This will definitely make the Magpie more short field friendly.

Pics for your info/amusement.

Don

Eric_N57105
09-03-2006, 01:19 AM
Having been inspired by your success. I decided Id give it a try too. So I stopped by the LHS on the way home and got some 1/8 x 1 balsa strips, two GWS picos, a Y harness and some control horns. Cut the strips to almost 9 covered to match, and taped them on. Used some FFF to make a flange to mount the servos. (Just for looks) Then hooked em up.

Got the chance to try them today, and Id Like to say: Kosh, You da Man.

With the flaps down I needed a 25% down elevator mix to keep it from ballooning up when they are deployed.

This is my first experience with flaps. So far, I like it.

I tried spoilers. Either I dont know how use them properly, or they just dont work well on the Magpie. With the flaps, the plane would just slow down and become more stable. I could ascend or descend slowly and almost level. With the spoilers, the plane descended quickly but seemed to become very unstable, especially in pitch. So I turned them off.

This will definitely make the Magpie more short field friendly.

Pics for your info/amusement.

Don

Cool! That's just what you do with a full-scale plane when deploying flaps. The nose wants to come up. You anticipate it, push the nose down and trim it.

No idea what the squirrely behavior with spoilers is about. Maybe a video would help if you can do that.

Nice job on a quicky installation.

Eric
www.ke6us.com

aviatordave
09-03-2006, 03:37 AM
Foamondabrain,

Can you give us a little detail on the bolt down wings too?

Like the flaps - thanks for sharing,

Dave

Kosh
09-03-2006, 04:27 AM
Well done on the flaps, Looks like they belong on the plane. I trimmed mine down closer to your size but never got to to try it out today. Just too windy at the field for testing much of anything.
Glad everything worked out well and it was a easy install that looks great.

Don E
09-03-2006, 09:01 PM
Thanks guys,

Kosh, you took the fear out of trying it with the R&D work that you did. So thanks again.

Further testing...
OK, It’s a good news / bad news kind of thing. The good news is that I still really like the flaps, and I get to buy some new landing gear. (I already ordered the gear you’ve got on yours Dave) The bad news is that I need to buy new landing gear.

I went out to a big parking lot to find out just how much speed you can shed with these new flaps. So with camera onboard I made a couple of low speed passes just to get the feel for the transition. With the extra weight, the flaps are only slightly less effective, but the ballooning effect was also less pronounced. So we’re good, right? I go up to about 300 feet and, full throttle, dive for the deck,:eek: (Maybe not the brightest thing I’ve done this week) and as I’m pulling up I pull the flaps, And the plane starts to balloon up. (I know, Big surprise) I reacted at the exact same time that the 25% down elevator mix did, and nestled into level flight at an altitude of about 2.25 inches or so from the ground.:o HMMM... Now the landing gear is dangling and I’m still flying. (Nice and slow and stable though because of those new flaps:rolleyes:) So because I haven’t really perfected the hand catch either, I belly-flopped the thing onto the ground. Damage report: Only the gear and the ply that it mounts to. I wanted the carbon fiber gear anyway.

Bolt on wings...
I thought it would be easer than fussing with the rubber bands, and addresses the problem of the bands biting into the top of the wing, and the ply from the wing saddle biting into the bottom of the wing.
I got some thin sheet plastic (it says styrene on the package) cut some strips about 1.5” glued 2 to the bottom and one to the top of the wing. (see pics) Then I cut some ¼” ply blocks, recessed them into the wing saddle with Gorilla glue. Position the wing, drill and tap the holes to ¼-20. Then use nylon wing bolts to hold it together. I also cut 2 small squares of the plastic, drill a ¼” hole in them to use as retainers so that the bolts stay with the wing. (see pics) Turns out that I don’t take the wing off very often anyway, but it is easy to do. So far it hasn’t caused any problems.

Pics for your info/amusement.

Don

aviatordave
09-03-2006, 11:00 PM
I like the simplicity Don, looks like I can do that. I'm sure you've run this plane thru the hoops, but would you say the bolt down wings are pretty strong compared to the rubber bands?

I really hate rubber bands!

Dave

Don E
09-04-2006, 06:03 PM
I like the simplicity Don, looks like I can do that. I'm sure you've run this plane thru the hoops, but would you say the bolt down wings are pretty strong compared to the rubber bands?

I really hate rubber bands!

Dave

I have discus launched, looped, rolled, and almost spun. All without the camera. I even cartwheeled it once. ( It sounds worse than it was, The wind picked one side of the wing up on a really slow landing. The wing tip hit the ground and the plane spun around 180 deg.)No damage. I have pulled out of some dives that I think would have streched the rubber bands pretty good. So I have "tested" it enough to say that I trust my camera with it.

If your asking for my recomendation, I can tell you this: Since I bolted the wing on, I have not once said "Man! I sure wish I had some rubber bands on this wing." :)

Don

Kosh
09-06-2006, 06:45 AM
After a slight trimming in size I tried the flaps again and played with how far they went down. After a few landings I settled on around 40 to 45 degrees deployed down and didn't run into as much flair up as before. There was no drama at this setting and I could abort a landing and make another pass still deployed. I suppose for a real tight area you could still dial them up to 60 or 70 degrees down and come in almost straight down.
I also tried them on the rudder control and that worked fine also as there totally adjustable with your finger tips. I wasn't brave enough to do a speed dive and hit the button but I did pull off a scary looking loop that wont be tried again anytime soon. :eek: Still need more testing but as the video shows there very effective when used.

Broadband: http://www.cascadeap.com/Flaps2.wmv 7.19mb

Dailup: http://www.cascadeap.com/Flaps2a.wmv 1.30mb


Kosh

loker
09-06-2006, 07:32 AM
those flaps are a great idea, very fancy, which I like, but here is a simpler way, and these allow you to come in real fast(like if there are tall objects around you and you need to come in steep), but still slow up real quick once you touch down. The bent wire I use for a tail skid acts like those wires on aircraft carriers, grabs hold and stops much much faster than if there were a wheel there. I've come in at 45 degrees from over a tree(it was moving real fast) and once the wires grabbed, it was probably 20 feet to a stop.

oh yeah, the other reason for coming in fast and then stopping real slow is that you have a lot more control with all the wind going over the control surfaces, especially if it's windy outside.

Kosh
09-15-2006, 07:53 AM
While this isnt mine the flaps also work well on a SS. Its worth a watch.:)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494421

aviatordave
09-16-2006, 05:10 AM
That was an interesting thread...

It also had the build of a good AP/AV platform. I like his 'fowler' flap design. I am still throwing this idea around in my head.........

so many ideas......so little time.....

Dave

JediFlyer
09-16-2006, 04:03 PM
So many ideas...so little money ;)

Grasshopper
11-14-2006, 03:25 PM
After a slight trimming in size I tried the flaps again and played with how far they went down. After a few landings I settled on around 40 to 45 degrees deployed down and didn't run into as much flair up as before. There was no drama at this setting and I could abort a landing and make another pass still deployed. I suppose for a real tight area you could still dial them up to 60 or 70 degrees down and come in almost straight down.
I also tried them on the rudder control and that worked fine also as there totally adjustable with your finger tips. I wasn't brave enough to do a speed dive and hit the button but I did pull off a scary looking loop that wont be tried again anytime soon. :eek: Still need more testing but as the video shows there very effective when used.

Broadband: http://www.cascadeap.com/Flaps2.wmv 7.19mb

Dailup: http://www.cascadeap.com/Flaps2a.wmv 1.30mb


Kosh


Hey Kosh, I'm getting ready to add the flaps to the Pie. What dimensions did you end up with and are you still using 40 to 45 degrees?

Thanks,

Tom

Kosh
11-14-2006, 08:11 PM
I ended up with flaps 8 inchs long and 1 3/4" wide. Just experiment with EPA till it wont pitch up badly when deployed. When down the pie with fly very slow so power must be applied to keep from stalling it.

Grasshopper
11-14-2006, 08:14 PM
Thanks. Is EPA something pitch angle? It looked like your flaps were tapered. Is this correct or are they just rectangles? I'm gonna hurry and get them on tonight. We have storm and wind advisories for tomorrow with sustained winds of 40 mph. I want to see if she'll fly backwards with the flaps down.

Just joking.

Kosh
11-14-2006, 08:36 PM
The EPA (End Point Adjustment) controls how far the servo makes the flaps go down. I would start around 50% and adjust it to what feels right to you. I revised my flaps to get them closer to the fuse and If I had to do it again I would try drawing 2.

Grasshopper
11-14-2006, 09:01 PM
Thanks Kosh.