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kepople
08-30-2006, 05:49 AM
I am in the process of converting a Fliton Inspire .60 to Electric. Not sure why they made this a glow arf as all they have to do ismove one former and install a battery tray and its electric.

WHen I got the box, I torn it open and weighed the parts. Weights to follow. However, the CA got in my hand and I got started.

First impressions are good. My covering needed to bereshirnk but it was not too bad. It is strange covering but very light.

More tomorrow as I get a little more time...

Here are some snaps...

Kirby

Dereck
08-30-2006, 03:11 PM
All looks a reasonable shape, but I could picture what would happen to those ailerons if they get into flutter... :eek:

About now, I'd be tearing that seethrough finish off, doing some colour scheme sketches and ordering some wild colours in Solite or Solarfilm.

You going to write up some weights and dimensions on this one? I've been looking for something like this to compare to my homegrown 54" span 'large scale' model of an FAI pattern bird.

Good luck with her

Dereck

Mike Parsons
08-30-2006, 05:33 PM
That looks great Kirby. Look forward to your impressions on maiden day :)

Mike Parsons
08-30-2006, 05:34 PM
Oh...one more thing. Can we get a fuse width towards the firewall? I am curious if my 3S3SP 4400's will fit side by side in there. Thanks.

kepople
08-31-2006, 03:49 PM
Yep, tonight. I was going to post some progress photos last night, but Wattflyer site would not come up for some reason.

Kirby

kepople
08-31-2006, 04:10 PM
Here is the weight data on all the parts as weighed by Steve Davidson. (thanks dude). Our setups will be very close, so I added comments to the side for the differences. I should be a bit heavier than Steves bird.

Fuse with hatch - 16.25 oz.
Right wing half - 5.875 oz. (mine was 5.3)
Left wing half - 5.375 oz. (mine was 5.3)
Right aileron - 1.5 oz. (Mine was 1.5)
Left aileron - 2.25 oz. http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif (mine was 1.8)
Right elevator - .875 oz.
Left elevator - .875 oz. (both of mine together weigh 1.8)
Horiz. stab - 1.75 oz. (mine 1.5)
Rudder - 1.25 oz. (mine 1.3)
LG - 4.5 oz.
Wheel axels & ply pcs. for wheel pants - .625 oz.
Wheels - .625 oz.
Stock tail wheel assy. w/ wheel - .625 oz.
Wheel pants - 1.5 oz.
Canopy - 1.375 oz. (uncut so should lose 1/3 of the weight...btw no cut lines http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif )
Cowl - 2 oz.
Wing Tube - .875 oz.
Stock control rods - 2 oz. (full lengths uncut) (these were replaced on both planes with 2-56 and CF sheaths)
Wood dowel elevator joiner - .125 oz.
Fuel tank - who cares it's going in the trash http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Stock control horns - .5 oz.
Misc. hardware (cowl & canopy screws and LG bolts) - .5 oz.
Bag w/ rubber bands, nylon ez links, nylon bolts for hatch - .25 oz.

Empty Airframe weight (unassembled) - 51.5 oz.

Components I plan to use:

Power 60 with connectors - 13.875 oz.
Prop adapter - .5 oz.
Spinner - .875 oz.
Mounting plate w/ 4 screws - .75 oz.
Motor mount standoffs w/ bolts and blind nuts - 2.625 oz.
APC 16x8 E Prop - 1.5 oz.
PHX 80 w/ connectors, UBEC and extensions - 3.125 oz. (Mine Hacker Opto 77 @ 2.5)
Electron 6 w/ crystal - .625 oz.
12" servo extensions - .125 oz.
24" servo extension - .375 oz.

Steves Servo Choices
Futabab 3102 w/ stock servo arm - .75 oz. (4 each - both ailerons & 2 on elevator)
JR ST 125 MG w/ stock servo arm - 1.75 oz. (1 each - rudder)

Kirbys Servo Choices
Hitec 5245 ailerons x2 @ 1.1 (RTF)
Hitec 5245 Elevator x1 @ 1.1 (RTF)
Hitec 5645 Rudder x1 @ 2.1 (RTF)
Sullivan Tail Wheel assy. - not sure but prob. lighter than stock assy.
Pull Pull wire for rudder - not sure but lighter than push rods
Control Horns - undecided but not the stock ones
Longer Control Arms - not sure on weight
Adhesives used - ?????
Ply Battery tray - ?????
Additional ply to mount servos - ?????
6s 3650's with y adapter (Tanics) - 21.875 oz.

I'm estimating with these numbers an AUW of 102.375 oz. (6.398 lbs.) (mine Calculates out to very close to the same weight, so its whoever can use the least amount of glue! )

Kirby

Mike Parsons
08-31-2006, 05:22 PM
I think even if someone gets to 7 pounds this thing will perform awesome. 6.5 lbs sounds reasonable and anything under that is bonus :).

Has Steve flown his yet?

kepople
08-31-2006, 08:01 PM
Nope, we are about the same point on the build. THere are a couple that have flown.

http://www.fliton.com/new/doc/frame.asp

Here is the conversion document on Flitons site that greg did with an AXI 4130.
http://www.flitonusamedia.com/docs/Inspire60ElectricConversion.pdf

Here is the video of it inflight. Very impressive at 6.4 pounds.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5947320&postcount=36

Kirby

kepople
09-01-2006, 04:53 AM
Well, last night I got the ailerons and linkages installed. All that is left on the wing is to seal the hing line with tape. I decided to use the Sullivan steel horns as I have had good luck with them on another plane. Greg told me that he has had good luck using screws into CA hardened wood and none had pulled loose so I thought I would try it. Steve D found me some #2 phillips sheet metal screws and they are perfect. About 5/8th long. Drill with 1/16th and run the screw in. Back it out, put a couple drops of CA in the hole and screw it back. Seems to be in there pretty good.

I did use 4 screws even though the Sulivan horns only come with 2 for use with the plate, but I wanted to be safe. THe advantage is nothing shows on the top side of the surface at all...

Kirb

kepople
09-01-2006, 05:04 AM
Tonight I decided to install the motor. This is the easiest motor install I have done to date. Following the instructions on th econversion article by Greg, I used the backplate to mark the holes and drilled them out. The holes in the plate are too small for the screws so I drilled them out also. I then used a much bigger bit to remove the burrs off the plate.

For the Standoffs, Ben at 3Dhobbyshop.com sent me his stand off kit that can standoff the motor multiple distances. THe longest being 2 inches. With the back plate that makes 2 1/8th inches. I ran the blind nuts in from the back and pressed them tight using a wood clamp. I installed the back plate on the motor and re installed the standoffs. Ran the screws tight into the blind nut and they do not protrude at all...

All thats left to do is to lock them in with some epoxy which I will do later.

Kirb

davidsons
09-01-2006, 08:19 PM
Looking good Kirby...it seems as though you have passed me up in the assembly thanks to my pal Mr. Z. Maybe we can maiden together on the same day next weekend.

Steve

kepople
09-01-2006, 08:39 PM
probably will be doing a dual maiden, but I would not say I have passed you. I am just doing the things you have not done first to look for roadblocks.

kirb

Mike Parsons
09-02-2006, 03:26 AM
Nice Kirby!

davidsons
09-02-2006, 03:40 PM
Kirby

Any progress last night?

Steve

kepople
09-03-2006, 08:03 PM
Wired up the ESC with the 6V ubec. Ground out the openings in the cowl for cooling, cut some extra ones in the fuse for direct battery cooling. About to check the esc for rotation then install the cowl permenantly with the mfg supplied screws.

Hope to install the elevator halves tonight.

Kirby

kepople
09-03-2006, 11:07 PM
Okay, the motor goes "whoosh" in the right direction, but needed to turn the brake off for now.

theres always something that takes much longer than you think it should. In this case, it was boring out the aluminum spinner back plate, and getting it all balanced, then mounting the cowl. Due to needing to use a prop reamer for the back plate, it was troublesome at best to get the back plate bored and balanced. I ended up screwing the plate to my down draft sanding table so I could get a grip on it. Only cut my fingers deeply twice before I got fed up with trying to hand hold it.

With this spacer setup the motor is out about 1/8" more than I think it really should be, but I am leaving it out there to help minutely with CG in future. Oh, I ended up opening the cowl more where the spinner mounts. There should be adequate cooling now, once I open an exit in the rear of the plane.

On to Elevator soon... after I cook dinner.

Kirby

kepople
09-04-2006, 08:26 PM
More low hanging fruit last night...but still took a while. I wne tback and forth with where to cut the canopy and decided I wanted a low profile, SPortwin canopy look so I cut the back of the canopy off.
Next came color. I normally do silver, but did not like it with this plane. The black looked good, but when I put the clear canopy on I liked the look. So I added a balsa floor and masked the opening off and shot it primer. I used 1/4" trim tape to hold the canopy to the hatch.
Next will be to come up with an alternate hold down. The supplied screws will never do, and I need to think about the magnets. and how many will be enough.

Before bed last night I epoxied the dowel joiner to the elevators and taped the leading edges to the hor stab for alignment This proved adequate except one halve is warped so I heated it this morning after ca'ng the hinges in place.
'

Also forgot to post a photo of my ESC installation...hope the dew does not cause me trouble.

Kirby

davidsons
09-04-2006, 10:18 PM
Looking good Kirby. Canopy/cockpit looks really good. I know what you mean about reaming the alum. back plate....the last one I did, I drilled the skin between two of my fingers. So was the dowel joiner pretty straight forward or did you have to fight it to get it right? Also....you just had to get a photo with your Shiner in it didn't you? I guess I better get my rear in gear if I'm gonna maiden mine next weekend.

Steve

Mike Parsons
09-05-2006, 12:30 AM
mmmmmm....shiner :)

Looks good K. I am looking forward to your Flight report. For the canopy, what about using the Hobby Lobby best latch?

kepople
09-05-2006, 01:23 AM
Mike I will take a look at that one. Steve is using rare earth magnets. I am not sure what I am going to do yet.

The dowel joiner was much easier than I thought. I used the epoxy to glue the joiner to the surface first, taped the counterbalances together and taped the trailedges where they looked even. Let it set over night, then ca'd the hinges. Nothing to it.

The only thing I would recommend is that if you are going to use the joiner, then install it before you install the rudder. Then you can use a straight edge to make sure they halves are perfectly aligned.

As for the Shiner, umm yummy, yes I think I will have another. Thanks for asking...

Kirby

davidsons
09-05-2006, 03:43 AM
Kirby

Did you put extra cooling holes in the firewall? If you did, photos please.

So it's Shiner and not Busch? :D

Hey Mike, what's up with the times shown on the posts...is it a setting I need to change?

Steve

kepople
09-05-2006, 05:23 AM
Shiner tonight...in between the odd margarita. (machine wont make my wife just one)

Heres where I hope the batteries will remain. No tray required. I also completed the rudder horn installation and the elevator servo/horn install...

Steve, did not open the firewall anymore. Can be done, but I thought I would check batt temps first. The cooling is directly below the batteries.

Kirby

p.s. Mike does the last photo make you thirsty yet? Buddy of mine brought me the glass back from Germany, so I keep it frozen for special occasions such as this... :)

davidsons
09-05-2006, 05:38 AM
Well, I could not wait for an answer so I opened the hole in the firewall to match the inner ply opening. Also mounted the motor and did the surgery on the cowl for cooling. Can you post a photo of the inside of the fuse w/o the batts installed? And cut it out already with the Shiner commercials.

Steve

kepople
09-05-2006, 03:26 PM
Will do tonight. I may open it up also, I guess it wont hurt as long as we have a big enough exit. Wow, you got a LOT done last night...

Kirby

Mike Parsons
09-05-2006, 03:40 PM
Yes..even at 10:38 am it is making me thirsty ;)

feathermerchant
09-05-2006, 11:01 PM
I know you've done this before but I'd put that UBEC up by the motor and away from the receiver.
Why no Zbends? Thought u were trying to save weight.

davidsons
09-06-2006, 05:46 AM
Just finished mounting the esc, ubec and cowl. Put my ubec on the floor of the fuse. Not as close to the rcvr as Kirby's and hopefully will be able to plug into the rcvr w/o an extension. Receiver should be here by Thursday ( Berg 7 from 3DHobbyShop.com ) and I will find out.

Steve

kepople
09-06-2006, 06:28 AM
I guess I can move it. I wanted it as far back as possible. No extension required if I move it forward still. I guess a 1/2 ounce wont make that much CG difference.

Okay, moved it to the floor under the wing tube. Thats as far away as it would go without an extension. We will see where everything ends up tomorrow. Thanks for pointing that out, it just did not cross my mind at the time.

Kirb

feathermerchant
09-06-2006, 02:27 PM
Also make sure the flat side faces teh rx per the instructs.FWIW a helicopter friend, told me he used to tyrap his rx to his UBEC! Crazy.

kepople
09-06-2006, 02:53 PM
here you go Steve...

Kirb

Mike Parsons
09-06-2006, 05:40 PM
Gary Wright had a phrase that still sticks with me today. The RX should be the last thing to arrive at the scene of the crash. LOL..still cracks me up :)

kepople
09-06-2006, 07:26 PM
Just before the pilot of course...(that walk of shame takes a few minutes)

Kirby

davidsons
09-07-2006, 12:55 PM
Just before the pilot of course...(that walk of shame takes a few minutes)

Kirby

...and a drive in the car in some cases :eek:

mmmdowning
09-07-2006, 05:56 PM
Nice job, looks real nice. I do have a AXI4130 that needs a home.

kepople
09-07-2006, 10:05 PM
Good place to put one of dem dare motrys...

Kirby

kepople
09-11-2006, 12:55 AM
Well, I got two flights in today on my Inspire.
I went through the setup yesterday and got the throws as recommended by Greg in the conversion article. I did set up the differential as recommended on all rates.
I took off on what would be trainer throws and tookthem off after the first turn. Took a bit off tweaking to get the trim right. The low rate roll is still very fast but it rolls on axis even though I was still a bit noise heavy at 5.75" THe second flight I moved it back to 6" and it was still a little nose heavy. Snaps are fast and crisp. It flies very good pattern stuff but it has a little too much elevator on low rates for my liking when doing pattern sequences. Knife edge is easy however there is some roll coupling and a smidge of pitch to the canopy. I will have to check the lateral and vertical CG's before next outing. It was easy to correct for as it was not bad, but it was there.
On the second flight a did a smidge of hovering and it was pretty easy. The only bad thing I can say on this flight was when I wenthigh to try a Knife Edge spin and immediatly lost orientation. Too some time to get the orientation back. I dont not think a plane this large should have clear covering. Admittedly I was pretty high, but not as high as I go with my Venus for Blenders. Soooo, I am not sure what I will do with the wing covering in the future yet, but something will have to be done...
I will say that it looks a lot less "Ugly" in the Air! Flies with nice authority.
My power setup was producing 1100 watts, but should be putting out 1500. Even with the reduction in power that I will have to debug later, the plane will still climb out of sight in a hurry. Hover was below half throttle.
My AUW is about 6.5 poundsish...
Fliton Inspire .60
Power 60
Hacker Master Opto 77
6s 3650 Tanics
16x8 APC prop
2x Hitec 5245 dig Ailerons
1x Hitec 5245 dig Elevator
1x Hitec 5645 dig Rudder
Electron 6
55amps 1100 watts..2400 mah back after 6-7 minutes.
There is some video out there some where thanks to Kelvin and Steve.
Kirby

Dereck
09-11-2006, 01:28 AM
Kirby

Good to hear it works. Not bad trim from what you say - you'd have to go to a real competition pattern bird built by a custom building service to get closer from what you say.

Covering - That see-through has got to go! Despite a tendency to cover models in ideas like 'pink and purple cow-moo-flage" (one of my tailless, odly enough) I've always found there's a lot of mileage in good old red and white. My favourite is to do the wing all white, with a full span red sunburst on the top - usually three, maybe four, 'rays' starting from one on the LE - and to do the underside in something like two or three rib bays in red, ditto in white. End up with the wing roots and tips red, and the fus bottom in red.

That gives you very obvious and bold cues as to 'this way up'. It gives big spanwise cues on the top, lengthwise cues on the bottom and enough area of red against white to be seen a long ways off. Forget cute little chequerboard film covering - it's no use at any distance. Ditto on small areas of different colours, unless you just put them between the primary colour blocks for pit-posing effect.

Red / Yellow isn't too bad and, gasp - cream and purple.

You sure have enough power :eek: My first 'big' aerobatic birds were the Four Star 40 and a GP CAP 232 - mostly to the kit's outline, with my structure. They had 20 BRJ - about 45ounces of battery - running some 35A!

I thought you were supposed to do blenders from about 50 feet, stop in auto-rotate at about ten, hover some, then punch out vertically? ;)

Regards

Dereck

kepople
09-11-2006, 02:00 AM
The Blenders will come down in future I am sure, but not the first one. I was not sure how much altitude would be lost in the transition, so start high is my rule!

Kirby

davidsons
09-11-2006, 12:52 PM
Congrats Kirby on a great (not your everyday) maiden. Here's a link to the video that Kelvin took. It was my first time to attempt video'ing a flight with my new digital vid cam and was doing somewhat okay till I lost it towards the end and never found it again.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=568231#post6047554

You will need to upgrade to QuickTime 7.1 to view it if you have not already.

Congrats again Kirby, well done!

Steve

kepople
09-11-2006, 02:45 PM
Thanks Steve, still would not mind seeing your video.

Cant believe I did not take one photo of it on the ground yesterday.
Kirby

skycarcass
09-13-2006, 02:07 PM
Well I'm new here but thought I would post here in case I have trouble with this one. I just recieved my Inspire 60 last night (thought UPS would never come). I have a E-Flight Power 60 I'm going to be using on it and a Futaba 7CAP. Basing everything on the conversion document posted on Fliton's website. Since there's already plenty of build pictures on here for this conversion would there be any interest in me posting mine as I work along? Again I'm pretty new, to the forum that is (been flying about 11 years, since I was 14) so let me know if there's any ediquette I'm missing.

Also for the guys that have already done this conversion. Is there anything you didn't post that might hang me up? I was wondering about rudder configuration. I'd like to do a pull pull arrangment just because I think its cool. But is it necessary? And if not is the performance worth the effort? I've never done a pull pull setup before.

Dereck
09-13-2006, 02:59 PM
Can't offer anything about the basic model, but it's an ARF, so it should be well-nigh perfect...

Rudder pull-pull - haven't flown much else for years.

Set up right, they work superbly. Idle points - you need to use a non-stretch thread. That yellow kevlar stuff you can buy from hobby sources works just fine. You only need a short length of tube where the thread lines pass through each fuselage side - the straighter the cable runs, the better, but a bend through a brass or ali tube in the fuselage side shouldn't make a noticeable difference.

I usually have mine exit the fuselage just aft of the tailplane LE, this keeps the angles of cable deflection down and hides the controls.

I don't care what the IMAC lot do, the last aircraft to look good with external control mechanisms was the Tiger Moth!

Despite some common wisdom, you can have the pick-ups at servo arm and rudder horns on different diameters. This can help you fudge the rudder throw to close enough to whatever's specified, then you trim it with the tranny throw adjust.

Another really good trick is to offset the rudder horn pick-up points to just aft of the rudder hinge line - no more than 1/8" will do fine. There's a long explanation someplace on the web about this topic and "Ackerman Geometry" - a similar topic to how a car's steering is set up to adapt to the inner wheel describing a tighter radius when cornering - but basically, this allows both cables to be at enough tension to hold the rudder straight, but when one cable pulls the rudder under servo command, the other cable slackens off slightly.

If you had the cable pick-ups ahead of the hinge line, as one pulled, the other would tighten up and over-stress its connections and the servo :(

You don't need the cables very tight - just enough to hold the rudder as much as you're used to with a single pull/push linkage, though you won't have the slop they can suffer.

Hope that helps

Dereck

Mike Parsons
09-13-2006, 03:16 PM
Nice job Kirby!!

Skycarcass,
the more photos and build photos the better is what I always say!!

kepople
09-18-2006, 06:13 PM
Sky;

Please post your progress photos for two reasons: To help others, and if the others that have done the conversion see something in error we might be able to keep your plane in the air.

I would suggest using the Pull Pull, its easy and positve authority at all times. You can also use the location of the servo to fine tune your CG. This is a wierd build in that I have never seen a glow conversion that came out nose heavy like this.

There are two things I need to point out:
Steve Davidson saw some possible blow back issues using Futaba 3102's for the ailerons. Got with the Digital 5245's or hitec 675's as an alternative.

There are two ways to configure the packs with the Power 60:
Put both packs on the try behind the spar tube, or put the rudder servo in the very back and put one pack on the tray and the other at the nose behnd the fire wall.

I will look at trying the second option as I got a little roll coupling in knife that I think I can attribute to a vertical CG issue. Still testing that one out though...

kirby

davidsons
09-18-2006, 06:38 PM
That would be 475's Kirby. They give the same torque as 5245's but no metal gear, karbonite instead, not digital and weigh 1.4 oz. vs. 1.1 oz but are only $18.00. I do think I experienced blow back on ailerons as even with high rates, the plane rolled very slow during aileron roll. After some research I think the servos are only delivering 51 oz. torque to each aileron do to the longer arms I used...learned something new yesterday. KE did not appear to have any pitch or roll coupling which may be due to the vertical cg Kirby is referring to. The proof will be if Kirby can eliminate his roll coupling simply by moving the packs. By the way, the split pack configuration seems to work real well and is easy.

Steve

kepople
09-18-2006, 08:53 PM
Yeah, I may try the spilt pack thing you got there Steve. Only catch is my Servo is forward so if I increase the weight in the nose by switching my ESC I will not be able to do it.

I will bring some string and we can check the Vbalance at deaf. We need to check the lateral balance on these planes as well.

kirby

davidsons
09-18-2006, 10:04 PM
Yeah, I may try the spilt pack thing you got there Steve. Only catch is my Servo is forward so if I increase the weight in the nose by switching my ESC I will not be able to do it.

I will bring some string and we can check the Vbalance at deaf. We need to check the lateral balance on these planes as well.

kirby

You have a good point...you may be moving your servo back then.

How do you check the vertical balance with string?

kepople
09-19-2006, 12:34 AM
Well, need the string to get a hold of the spinner. We dropped it a couple times trying to check this stuff at the field.

To check the vertical CG, I really need to look to see where the datum line is, but moving the CG, and checking the lateral balance may remove coupling. If not I can remove it electronically if need be...

Kirby

davidsons
09-19-2006, 12:57 PM
Well, need the string to get a hold of the spinner. We dropped it a couple times trying to check this stuff at the field.

To check the vertical CG, I really need to look to see where the datum line is, but moving the CG, and checking the lateral balance may remove coupling. If not I can remove it electronically if need be...

Kirby

Still don't get it...how do you check the vertical cg using the string? I've checked lateral balance this way but never the vertical cg.

Steve

davidsons
09-19-2006, 12:58 PM
Are we alone in this thread Kirby?

davidsons
09-19-2006, 12:58 PM
If so, that's a scary thought and I'm gettin outta here! :eek:

mmmdowning
09-19-2006, 02:59 PM
I'm watching.

skycarcass
09-19-2006, 04:29 PM
Guys I'm still here. In the process of moving so I haven't yet even unwrapped the plane. Thank you both for your suggestions. I'll definetly be calling on you later when I get to the pull-pull setup as I've never done it before. I'll probably start the build on Monday after we close on both houses on Friday. Saturday and Sunday will be my unpacking days. I'll post pics as well.

kepople
09-19-2006, 06:07 PM
Steve;
ZZZZ.....zzzzzz......ZZZZZ......zzzzzz.....
Its hard to type when you are asleep....

Sorry, to confuse, the string is just to loop around the prop shaft so we can get a grip on it to check these thingies. I think we need to eliminate the lateral balance question first, and move the CG back before I work on the vertical issue.

Kirby

davidsons
09-19-2006, 08:04 PM
Steve;
ZZZZ.....zzzzzz......ZZZZZ......zzzzzz.....
Its hard to type when you are asleep....

Sorry, to confuse, the string is just to loop around the prop shaft so we can get a grip on it to check these thingies. I think we need to eliminate the lateral balance question first, and move the CG back before I work on the vertical issue.

Kirby

Yep....MR. Z is kicking my booty lately!

Understand the loop of string around the shaft but what's next for checking vertical cg? Checking lateral, you lift at the nose and tail and see which wing tip drops and then add weight to the other wing tip.

Steve

kepople
09-19-2006, 09:44 PM
Okay well here is my plan here...
1) move the CG back so its neutral inverted
2) check the lateral CG (put a loop around the spinner & hold the tail at the datum line, fix low wing drop)
3) Fly it and look for roll coupling and other issues
4) if still rolling to canopy, both directions in knife then probably vertical issue.
5) Check by:
a) hang from string by prop and set datum line or thrust line 90degrees to ground
b) Remove wing and could hang from wing tube slot rudder up (wing could be removed)
c) hold at leading edge of wing (looking for about 3" ahead of cg in this case, wing could be removed)

Set vertical balance higher for pattern type stuff, lower for 3d type stuff. Its not usually an issue as you could always just mix out what coupling there is but I want to set it up right from the beginning. Sure you can fly it out, but why ...

If this is the case, I can possibly move one pack ahead of the spar, add heavier wheels, or add weight. Depending on how bad it is, adding the bigger ESC may be best.
Kirby

kepople
09-20-2006, 04:38 PM
Are we alone in this thread Steve? ;) :)

feathermerchant
09-20-2006, 04:51 PM
yup

Mike Parsons
09-20-2006, 07:10 PM
Nope :)

skycarcass
09-20-2006, 08:44 PM
That would be 475's Kirby. They give the same torque as 5245's but no metal gear, karbonite instead, not digital and weigh 1.4 oz. vs. 1.1 oz but are only $18.00. I do think I experienced blow back on ailerons as even with high rates, the plane rolled very slow during aileron roll. After some research I think the servos are only delivering 51 oz. torque to each aileron do to the longer arms I used...learned something new yesterday. KE did not appear to have any pitch or roll coupling which may be due to the vertical cg Kirby is referring to. The proof will be if Kirby can eliminate his roll coupling simply by moving the packs. By the way, the split pack configuration seems to work real well and is easy.

Steve

I purchased the 475's as suggested. I've got a Hitec HS-6635HB and a Hitec HS-5245MG also. Those should be strong enough for rudder and elevator right? Again I'm planning on starting the build next week (unless I run into some free time this weekend but doesn't look that way). I'll be taking plenty of pictures. Thanks again for the advice so far.

Dereck
09-20-2006, 09:22 PM
Are we alone in this thread Steve? ;) :)

Nope

What is a shame is that those of us who fly this kind of model can't get together and see how they compare.

I did this last year with Ed Lyerly - his "Long Stik" BARF (highly got at) with flatties vs my BRJ fed own design "E-Rotica". Apart from both using Hackers, albeit different specs, and being close to the same wingspan, the two have little in common. Ed had the kind of watts/lb that would make an F15 feel inadequate, mine has a measely 600-ish W in a 5.25lb airframe.

His toy is bang up to the minute pattern BARF, mine looks like a cross between a 'ten center' rubber model fuselage and a pattern ship wing from the 1970s.

Did we have fun trying to outdo each other, or what?

This kind of model is something awesome to play with. It isn't cheap, but compared to a pro-built IMAC ride or FAI F3* patternship, they are almost 'affordable'. They can also strike a small donkey by foot in a way that those who've never flown anything this potent maybe can't grasp...

In the meantime, mine's actually up for sale. I suspect we've hit that time of life when 'downsizing' is calling and a 54", 56" long model that really needs a huge 5S LiPo pack is not high on the 'must keep' list. It's successor will be much easier to store, haul around and keep fed on 4S - but it'll still be a hard act to beat ;)

Someone could score the ultimate in "RTF" here...

But that's by the by. Let's keep hearing about this one.

Regards

Dereck

davidsons
09-21-2006, 04:45 AM
I purchased the 475's as suggested. I've got a Hitec HS-6635HB and a Hitec HS-5245MG also. Those should be strong enough for rudder and elevator right? Again I'm planning on starting the build next week (unless I run into some free time this weekend but doesn't look that way). I'll be taking plenty of pictures. Thanks again for the advice so far.

Two 5245's would be good for elevator. I would not use the 6635 on the tail b/c it does not have metal gears and is only 83 oz. torque. I think you should shoot for at least 100 oz. minimum on the rudder and elevator, prob. more on the rudder since it's huge, not counter balanced and controls the tail wheel. Just my 2 cents but others agree. I'm using two Futaba 3102's (64 oz. torque each) on elevator and one JR 125 (125 oz. torque) on rudder.

Here's a photo of the added covering on the bottom of the wing halves for better orientation. I'm in the process of adding the same covering to the bottom of the tail section.

Steve

davidsons
09-21-2006, 06:16 AM
Okay...I can sleep easy now...the PITA part is done. Checkers or chess anyone?

Steve

davidsons
09-21-2006, 06:17 AM
I'm all alone again....Kirby where are you????

kepople
09-21-2006, 08:17 AM
Did you remove the covering or cover over it...

Kirby

kepople
09-21-2006, 08:17 AM
"alone again, naturally..."

Kirb

davidsons
09-21-2006, 12:43 PM
Did you remove the covering or cover over it...

Kirby

Used the sealing iron to remove the old stripes, cleaned up the residual pigments with alcohol, wiped surface with alcohol and put new ultracote right on top of existing covering. Used 220 F to tack it on and then 300 F to shrink it...no heat gun, iron only.

Tonight I will install the Aileron servos and linkages, reconnect the elevator linkages, investigate the motor vibration (maybe just remove the spinner and rotate 180 and reinstall) and if MR. Z leaves me alone, program some differential.

Steve

skycarcass
09-21-2006, 03:29 PM
Two 5245's would be good for elevator. I would not use the 6635 on the tail b/c it does not have metal gears and is only 83 oz. torque. I think you should shoot for at least 100 oz. minimum on the rudder and elevator, prob. more on the rudder since it's huge, not counter balanced and controls the tail wheel. Just my 2 cents but others agree. I'm using two Futaba 3102's (64 oz. torque each) on elevator and one JR 125 (125 oz. torque) on rudder.

Here's a photo of the added covering on the bottom of the wing halves for better orientation. I'm in the process of adding the same covering to the bottom of the tail section.

Steve
Well I guess its a good thing I won't be starting this till next week. Gives me more time to get the new servos here. I should have checked with you guys before buying my other stuff. I was just basing it off of the conversion on Flitons site. Thanks again for helping me out. And where the heck are you guys at? Posting at 1-2 am? Crazy man :)

kepople
09-21-2006, 04:50 PM
Gotta check the boards after the late night building...there is a local flyin this weekend, so gotta cram...

Kirby

davidsons
09-21-2006, 04:51 PM
My bad....a single 5245 should be okay on elevator...Kirby's using only one with no probs. Sorry if I mis guided you.

Late is about the only time I can work on this stuff once my kiddos are asleep.

davidsons
09-26-2006, 09:30 PM
Well...flew mine at DEAF with mixed results. Flew great except whenever the rod for the dual rudder horn shifted in flight. The rod had wiggled back and forth causing the hole to enlarge and thus giving lot's of slop. At the very least I would soak this area with ca but I'm going to open the hole further to accept a 5/8" diam. wood dowel and then re drill the hole along with soaking the entire area with ca. I don't want this to happen again as I almost crashed the airplane. I'll post photos when I install the dowel.

Also the motor thrust angle is not enough for the large e prop so I mixed in some right rudder with all throttle settings 50% and above. Kept mixing in right rudder until vertical upline stayed straight....after trimming rudder in level fight into and with the wind of course.

Steve

skycarcass
09-27-2006, 01:53 AM
Well I jumped the gun and took the plane out of the box on Sunday night before I had to leave for a business trip. So far I just have the openings cut from the fusalage and the ailerons are hinged. I'll take some pictures when I get home tomorrow afternoon/night. Hopefully they'll have my internet hooked up by then so I can post. If not I'll post them from work on Thursday. I'm going to be taking this one slow since its the nicest plane I've had and I want to do it right.

I read somewhere that a good way to "cut" the covering and seal it down around the edges at the same time, was to use a soldering iron... I tried that when cutting out the landing gear bolt holes but it just burned right through the covering so I quit with that idea. I've found that I have to keep the heat on my iron a little lower than I expected to get the covering to stick and lay down the right way. I had it too hot at first and it was curling up.

kepople
09-27-2006, 07:08 PM
I use the soldering Iron most of the time but this covering is so thin it cut better with a sharp #11.

kirby

skycarcass
09-28-2006, 02:30 PM
Ok, so my camera isn't working so I'll just try to explain where I'm at. I've hinged all the surfaces, servo's are on the airlerons and I epoxied the stab and elevator joiner in last night. This morning after the epoxy had cured I CA'd the elevator hinges in. I'm starting to understand why people are saying they don't like the provided hardware. I also think I'll switch to some CF pushrods. I've never cut CF before, is there anything special about it? I have some CF rods from another plane I was going to build but decided not to. Would it be a problem to use those rods (of the same diameter as the provided rods)?

skycarcass
09-29-2006, 05:23 PM
Well last night I got quite a bit done. All servos are installed and the plane is put together. I decided not to go pull-pull yet. I'll wait a little while and stick with the stock setup before I risk wrecking a rudder. I'm going to put pull-pull on my Somethin Extra for practice. I've got the stock pushrods on it right now but if I hear back about CF I'd be more than happy to switch.

I'm going to drill the motor mount tomorrow and get the motor installed. Then I need to solder everything up. I bought my batts from CommonSence RC and they recommended the gold plated 6mm bullet connectors. These are a pain to solder. Would there be a problem going with just deans connectors?

kepople
09-29-2006, 07:36 PM
Deans are fine. I use them.

DId you get the CF cut. Sorry I missed the post as I have not been on here much this week...I just cut it with a dremel, but use a dust mask.

kirby

skycarcass
09-29-2006, 07:56 PM
no need to appologize. I've been busy myself. And looks like I won't get much done this weekend either. My girlfriend will be home from school so I'll need to spend time with her. Also just found out that I'm going to spend all next week in Pennsylvania for business. I'm never going to get this thing done!

Thanks for the tip on the CF. I'll cut them when I get a chance. Do you just epoxy the clevises on?

skycarcass
10-10-2006, 01:29 AM
Well tonight I maidened her. Was a little nervous as this is the most advanced, and expensive, plane I've ever flown. But it flew great. I set up triple rates as suggested by the Fliton conversion document and flew the first 4 minutes on low rates. I was suprised that it would KE on low rates. Very nice plane. Inverted required just a tad down which I'm told means its balanced pretty well. And I thought it was a bit nose heavy.

I did notice a pronounced tip stall if I got it too slow in a turn. Pretty nasty. I attempted a brief hover (my first real attempt outside of a simulator) and she held for a second but it was getting a little gusty. I just added power and pulled straight up. I can tell that I'm going to have a ton of fun with this plane.

I need some advice on balancing though. In KE it has a slight pull to the canopy. I know you guys have been talking about vertical and lateral balancing. Can I balance this out or should I program it out?

Also this is my first ship where I'm using expo. I like it alot. Especially on the higher rates. Thanks for all your help so far and for being so willing to share information.

I can't stop smiling :D

kepople
10-12-2006, 09:59 PM
Congrats on the maiden! Sorry I have been away from the thread a bit with fly ins and such!

Its a great flying plane....

Got any photos?

What did you think of the covering in flight?

Kirby

skycarcass
10-13-2006, 03:09 PM
Congrats on the maiden! Sorry I have been away from the thread a bit with fly ins and such!

Its a great flying plane....

Got any photos?

What did you think of the covering in flight?

Kirby

I don't have any pics yet. I'll try and get some this weekend. Perhaps even a video. Its been snowing and blowing the past two days here so I've only flown it twice. We have a final club flyin/meeting Sunday so I'll post a bunch from there.

The covering didn't bother me. The maiden was later in the day than I would have prefered. It was getting dark. But I didn't have any trouble keeping orientation. However several of the members that were observing said they had a hard time seeing it. Maybe its my younger eyes. I haven't flown it when it was sunny (overcast both days and getting dark on the first) so I'm not sure how that will affect it. Supposed to be nice on Sunday so I'll let you know.

I need to buy more batts so I can fly this thing more often :) But this stuff is expensive when you get this big :)

skycarcass
10-15-2006, 10:28 PM
Ok, so today didn't go so well. Our club was having a final chili lunch/fun fly and the weather was great, except it was pretty windy. Hadn't yet flown the fliton in any wind so I was a little nervous. Putting the rubber bands on the wings when all of the sudden they went slack. After a brief glance I see that the ply hook has come apart.

Rather than try and epoxy it back together I went to Walmart and bought some self tapping hooks. CA'd those puppies in there and hooked the wings together again. Did my range check and taxi'd out. Took off great. Penetrated wind perfectly. Couldn't even really tell it was blowing (15-20 is what the wind meters were saying). I was really having a good time. Then it happened. 4 minutes into the flight (according to my timer) a little smoke started coming from underneath the cowel. Then my motor shut off. What actually worried me the most was that my prop stopped... and I had the brake turned off. But it wasn't freewheeling. I was at the upwind end of the field and realized there was no way I would get back through the pattern to set up for a correct landing. Downwind it would have to be. I brought it around, said a thank you prayer for not tip stalling. And brought it to a less than smooth, but still decent landing. Myself and a few others (no one else was flying) ran out to the plane. We recently had one catch fire so we purchased a fire extinguisher and a member grabbed that just in case. I got there and could smell the burning smell. First i took of the hatch and unhooked my batts. I knew it wasn't them because they were barely warm. So I turned the plane over and saw the ESC was obviously damaged. Several parts were melted and a couple of the chips had desoldered. I was very grateful that I decided not to use the BEC and used a separate LiPo for my radio.

A guy in our club has only flown electric for a long time. He has a couple sponserships and really knows his stuff. He saw that I was running a CC Phoenix 80 on 6 cells and that was the problem. He's heard reports that even though the Phoenix 80 is advertised to handle 6 cells, doing so leaves no room for fluctuation in volts. There is also an issue with the ESC in that when the throttle is closed and the prop is freewheeling, some EFF interference is generated in the speed controller that causes the voltages to freak out. This is all hearsay on his part but he said he heard it from a reputable source.

So I guess I will be contacting CC tomorrow and hoping that they'll stand behind their product. What I'd really like is to have them give me a credit and I'll pay the difference for one of their high voltage 80's.

So it wasn't a great day, but my plane is still in one piece and no one was killed. And I was a little proud that I accomplished two new things in the same flight... first deadstick ever, and first down-wind landing... And I liked electrics because you don't have to worry about a dead-stick :)

Mike Parsons
10-16-2006, 06:52 PM
That stinks SC,
I have been running a phoenix 80 on 6S in my FuntanaX and Fliton Edge 540 and Seagull Harrier 3D with no problems. Sounds like you may just have a bad one.

kepople
10-16-2006, 07:55 PM
SKy;
I am sorry for your trouble and relieved the plane survived...let us know what Castle says...someone once told me that the CC customer service guys are the hardest working guys in the industry so I hate to hear another controller failure.

Kirby

skycarcass
10-16-2006, 08:10 PM
SKy;
I am sorry for your trouble and relieved the plane survived...let us know what Castle says...someone once told me that the CC customer service guys are the hardest working guys in the industry so I hate to hear another controller failure.

Kirby

I called Castle this morning and talked to Joe. Told him briefly what happened. He asked me what batts, motor, and prop I was using. He also asked the question I was dreading since I thought it would ruin me. He asked how many amps I was pulling. I bought an amp meter with the rest of the gear but when I plugged it in, it didn't work. Haven't gotten around to sending it back yet. So I didn't know. But joe said not to worry, with my setup I should have only been pulling about 45-50 amps tops. He asked what was melted on the ESC, I told him it was the mosfets and he said to send it back and they'd replace it. I was very happy to hear this. But I still don't want it to happen again so I asked about having a credit applied to the purchase of a 85HV. He said they could do that but it would cost me about $105 more. Not a big deal except I can buy a brand new 85HV on Horizon Hobby for $179. Joe then offered me a straight up exchange for the 45HV. He said that should run what I have. I agree, but again I'd be right at the limit of the controller. So I'm just going to send it back and get it exchanged for the original Phoenix 80. I'll also order a 85HV from Horizon and use the phoenix in another plane I've yet to purchase.

So I am extremely pleased with Castle's customer service. Joe was a tremendous help and I'd have no issues dealing with them again in the future.

kepople
10-17-2006, 03:53 PM
Good to hear...more controller is always better I think. Heat is wasted energy and that thing would be getting pretty toasty if you went with the 45.

Kirby

feathermerchant
10-21-2006, 01:19 AM
I have routinely run my 45HV's to 60A (on 8S) with no problems.
It is a combination of Voltage and curent. I have heard prople run 60A on 12S with no problems.
The Phx 80 should be fine tough. They have had a few bad ones.