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-   -   1913 Eastbourne monoplane (http://www.Wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72874)

FlyWheel 12-29-2013 08:53 PM

1913 Eastbourne monoplane
 
I'm getting ready to take my AeroCraft/Hobby Lobby 1913 Eastbourne Monoplane kit off the shelf and put it on my worktable. Now usually before I start any build I scan both WattFlyer, RCG and other groups for any previous builds of the same plane so as to get an idea of what's involved, any problems that may be encountered, solutions and tips/ideas in general.

The problem this time is there aren't any! Not just the AC/HL kit, but I can't find a single detailed build log of an Eastbourne period! Even Google refuses to help. All I get are a few short (less than one page) threads by people like me asking questions, and a short build with almost no info, just a few pictures with no details about the build. :concern: So I'm starting this one even more in the dark than my very first one (there were a lot of Miss Stik build threads, I even printed one out and kept it by the work table while building). Is there anyone else out there who has built this particular kit? Here are some of the things I am considering...
  • As this is a model of an actual aircraft, I would like it to be somewhat scale, without getting anal about it (this isn't a 257" scratch built B-36D after all ;-) ).

  • Because of the thinness of the wings on this plane, I am going to keep it as a 3Ch. RET rather than flattening the wings and attempting to add ailerons.

  • The wings have a strong undercamber so normal heat shrink covering techniques won't work (the plans/instructions even say not to use regular MoneyCote as it shrinks too much and may damage the wing). Also I would like to keep the Olde Tyme fabric look, but I have never used dope/tissue or silk before. Is this particularly difficult? Or is there a heat shrink substitute that will work? Although the idea of using modern plastic covering on this century old plane seems oddly blasphemous, I'm open to suggestions.

  • The Model is designed for nickel batteries, a Speed 400 brushed motor and a Mini Olympus gearbox (not sure at this writing of the reduction ratio). I plan to use Liithium, which will not affect the balance as the Batts are stored at the CG anyway, and a brushless motor. Because they are lighter than brushed motors to begin with, I intend to use an inrunner and keep the motor/gearbox combo so not to frak up the balance too much

  • Along with keeping balance there is another, (some would say vain) reason I want to keep the noisy gearbox; I want the noise! I know I'll never find one that sounds like a 'real' Anzani engine, but something that at least resembles the rough, 'clattery' sound (or a scaled down version of it) would be nice.

If there is anything else I should know, please chime in. I'm also making this request on RCG in case they have anything :)

fhhuber 12-29-2013 09:44 PM

With a deep underchamber any covering method will need very careful application.

It might even require stitching the underside covering to the ribs, as was done on the full scale aircraft. especially if you choose to use silk.
Note that silk can crush a structure if improperly applied. If they are warning that Monokote and similar can crush it you should go with tissue or one of the low temp and lower strength coverings or a light tissue.

gramps2161 12-29-2013 11:07 PM

I found one post on RCG the guy used litespan for the wing and fuse same kit you have. I have used this covering on a stick built mini teleMaster at the recommendation from the LHS owner. I found litespan easy to work with and it doesn't shrink a lot with heat.
Have fun building it I always liked the look of that plane.

dgjessing 12-29-2013 11:45 PM

Nice looking plane!

The original had ailerons, and they were considered kinda novel at the time. If I get a vote, I'd say add ailerons :rolleyes:.

[popcorn]

FlyWheel 12-31-2013 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgjessing (Post 935527)
Nice looking plane!

The original had ailerons, and they were considered kinda novel at the time. If I get a vote, I'd say add ailerons :rolleyes:.

[popcorn]

Beieve me when I say I would if I could, but the wing is too thin, to my knowledge they don't make servos that small (at least not strong enough). Even if I could find a way to actuate them they may end up breaking themselves or the wing structure. The manufacturer even warns against using MonoCote because it shrinks too much and may damage it. :concern:

Addendum:
Quote:

Originally Posted by gramps2161 (Post 935524)
I found one post on RCG the guy used litespan for the wing and fuse same kit you have. I have used this covering on a stick built mini teleMaster at the recommendation from the LHS owner. I found litespan easy to work with and it doesn't shrink a lot with heat.
Have fun building it I always liked the look of that plane.

Is Litespan the same as Polyspan? I was directed to this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oJrk...layer_embedded
Which also shows a delicate undercambered wing being covered. Not cloth fabric (Polyspan is a non-woven polyester), but a possible option if I can't find a good woven cloth covering.

Anyone got a lead on a noisy gearbox equivalent to the dis-continued Mini-Olympus?

zoltron55 12-31-2013 09:02 PM

go old school & use jap tissue. I use krylon clear to seal it

FlyWheel 12-31-2013 09:47 PM

that's on my list of options. Can it be made to look like fabric?

fhhuber 12-31-2013 10:09 PM

The only thing that REALLY looks like fabric is a fabric.

But fabrics will have more shrinking tension than Monokote...

gramps2161 12-31-2013 10:21 PM

Addendum: Is Litespan the same as Polyspan? I was directed to this video...
Which also shows a delicate undercambered wing being covered. Not cloth fabric (Polyspan is a non-woven polyester), but a possible option if I can't find a good woven cloth covering.

Litespan is along the lines of tissue covering. Like the polyspan you do have to brush on the adhesive then iron on the covering with low heat. Seems you want to keep it more towards a fabric covered look for the era of the plane.

fhhuber 12-31-2013 10:36 PM

Look at the actual fabric of a full scale fabric covered aircraft.

Only the early ones that were painted with just a couple of coats of clear can you really see the fabric weave. These were covered in unbleached muslin (cotton) which gave them a distinct light tan color that tended to darken some with age.

Anything later was painted with enough coats to fill the weave.

Even the early ones where you could see the weave full scale, you wouldn't be able to see the correct scale weave from 3 ft if the model is 1/6 scale or smaller.

So be more concerned about the color than the texture.

Scale modelers often overemphasize details such as fabric weave, rib stitching, rivets and panel lines. A lot of the stuff they work really hard to make visible should be undetectable.

riverrat 01-01-2014 03:36 PM

Muslin
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fhhuber (Post 935779)
rib stitching


Mr. fhhuber

Rib Stitching! Now that brings back some very old
memories. In fact hours & hours of very old memories!!

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!
Jimmy

FlyWheel 01-01-2014 04:12 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by riverrat (Post 935852)
Mr. fhhuber

Rib Stitching! Now that brings back some very old
memories. In fact hours & hours of very old memories!!

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!
Jimmy

Somehow I doubt they had heat adhering/shrink coverings ;-) AeroCraft recommends Litespan, Airspan or Silkspan and dope. (See video above)

I opened the box and took a good look at the plans instructions. Although it still says the model is made for a Speed 400 motor/gearbox...

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/atta...d=172713&stc=1

The plans and instructions have been modified for an [AXi?] 2208-14 brushless outrunner. However this looks as if it has been 'MacGyvered' by attaching a "motor mount box" onto the firewall that the original S400/gearbox assembly was mounted.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/atta...d=172714&stc=1

This mounting box shoves the much lighter BL motor way forward into the dummy motor cavity, I assume in an attempt to counter it's much lighter weight. This is what leads me to believe this is an adaptation to the otherwise unmodified design. However I doubt this does the job as well as they had hoped, because n the instructions it states:
Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroCraft
Do not hesitate to add detail in the interest of saving weight, the Eastbourne tends to be tail heavy anyway and the added detail really brings the model to life.

So I'm thinking I will stay with the BL inrunner/gearbox arrangement if I can. So again I ask, is there a particularly noisy but otherwise good quality inrunner/gearbox equivalent to the S-400/Mini-Olympus?

fhhuber 01-01-2014 04:39 PM

Actually what the original 400 + gearbox would have been is a brushed motor system. (even heavier than the inrunner + gearbox)

Lots of scale models have the issue of being tail-heavy without adding lead in the nose. The full scale engines often were very heavy resulting in a short nose.
I really hate adding useless lead to an aircraft but sometimes you have to fill the dummy engine cylinders with birdshot and epoxy.

Placement of the outrunner is to get the prop in the right place more than anything else.

Abuelo 01-08-2014 11:47 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Flywheel, I'm a fan of Polyspan and nitrate dope. If you'd like a piece to try I'll be happy to mail one to you. Just let me know your address via a pm, and if you'd like enough to do the tail surfaces, as a sample, advise their sizes.

Can also include a writeup on how to cover using dope or bushing lacquer. Polyspan does not stretch, a weakness, but adheres nicely and heat shrinks to a smooth surface. Would be a good option for the under-cambered wing using modified techniques for the golden olden days.

Here are a couple photos of Polyspan on structure, showing the texture.

FlyWheel 01-09-2014 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhhuber (Post 935861)
Actually what the original 400 + gearbox would have been is a brushed motor system. (even heavier than the inrunner + gearbox)

Lots of scale models have the issue of being tail-heavy without adding lead in the nose. The full scale engines often were very heavy resulting in a short nose.
I really hate adding useless lead to an aircraft but sometimes you have to fill the dummy engine cylinders with birdshot and epoxy.

Placement of the outrunner is to get the prop in the right place more than anything else.

Which was why I was hoping to keep the gearbox; I knew there would be a balance problem, and that switching to an even lighter brushless motor would make it even worse. Unfortunately filling the dummy engine with lead isn't really an option unless as you say I put in the engine cylinders, preferably after it is installed on the aircraft so I can fine tune the balance, as the brushless configuration has the motor mounted in the engine block. I was thinking a lot of detailing on the engine, and perhaps even a wooden E-prop may help.

That and making the tail as light as sanely possible, of course.


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