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-   -   First aileron flight (http://www.Wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73051)

DavidR8 01-25-2014 10:36 PM

First aileron flight
 
I added ailerons to my Super Cub over the past week. Took her out for my first flight with ailerons.

All in all,it went well. Very calm day but had a couple of holy crap moments when a gust came out of the blue and basically sent her nose up into a stall. I think she's a tad tail heavy.

Despite the number of hours on the sim, flying in the real world is different.

goodwrench00 01-26-2014 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidR8 (Post 938077)
I added ailerons to my Super Cub over the past week. Took her out for my first flight with ailerons.

All in all,it went well. Very calm day but had a couple of holy crap moments when a gust came out of the blue and basically sent her nose up into a stall. I think she's a tad tail heavy.

Despite the number of hours on the sim, flying in the real world is different.

I did ailerons AND flaps on my SC. Flies good with low rates and some expo. Flaps I'm not too sure about, too windy to try much.:sad:

AEAJR 01-30-2014 09:59 PM

Just remember that as you apply flaps the nose will have a tendency to come up do to the higher lift of the wing. Be prepared to apply some down elevator to compensate.

Practice using flaps up high, not near the ground.

DavidR8 01-30-2014 11:23 PM

My intent is to become aileron-saavy on the Super Cub before I move onto flying my Fun Cub.

goodwrench00 01-31-2014 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEAJR (Post 938524)
Just remember that as you apply flaps the nose will have a tendency to come up do to the higher lift of the wing. Be prepared to apply some down elevator to compensate.

Practice using flaps up high, not near the ground.

I do have a flap/elev mix setup and have been staying "2mistakes high" while trying flaps.

goodwrench00 01-31-2014 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidR8 (Post 938534)
My intent is to become aileron-saavy on the Super Cub before I move onto flying my Fun Cub.

I love to fly the cub, I have several faster planes but go back to the cub. Nothing like pointing into the wind and just floating! Ailerons do make it more responsive, in my opinion. Have fun with it!

Dragonflyer 01-31-2014 01:17 AM

Good deal David, you are doing what I did way back in the '70's. I had bought a Goldberg Ranger 42 and installed all four channels in it. I crashed, fixed, crashed, fixed and so on and so on, until it was shot. Then I decided to build a plain and simple rudder/elevator airplane with a foam wing. I learned to fly with that airplane. After I got pretty good with on it with just rudder. Then I decided to add ailerons to it and the rest is history. I had learnt flying with ailerons.
I am glad to hear you are going the way you are. So many learn the hard way with ailerons right off the bat. There is a learning curve to flying RC.
You can always go back by simply reversing the rudder aileron servo plugs on the receiver. Just make sure the ailerons are centered then tape them.
My first RC was A Goldberg 1/2A Skylane, rudder only. Now that was fun !!!
DF aka Bill

maxflyer 01-31-2014 05:12 PM

While this video mostly represents my latest attempts at producing a video, it also represents my somewhat outdated view on how to go about learning to fly RC. Your mileage will vary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c6KrYifscQ

Dragonflyer 01-31-2014 06:21 PM

Nice job Max, great video. If you build it it will fly. Big wing, take off slow in <20 ft. That is exactly the way I did it. Using your head for something other than holding your ears apart.:)
DF aka Bill

PS: Also liked the Avatar, wings level & climbing.

maxflyer 01-31-2014 08:25 PM

Thanks. It may, or may not interest you to note that, I am flying at 7000' MSL.

PS. Avatar is an ATTITUDE indicator. My attitude is oftentimes curmudgeonly.

pizzano 01-31-2014 08:36 PM

Very well done maxflyer.....$60.00...(without power system I assume)....not bad!

Dragonflyer 01-31-2014 09:48 PM

In the full size biplane I built there were times the blue was on the bottom and the brown on top.:eek:
DF aka Bill

maxflyer 01-31-2014 10:24 PM

$60 includes the gear (except for battery). Roughly...Less than $20 each for the motor, ESC, and clone Hitec 4CH Rx, plus three 9G servos. Maybe $2-3 worth of foam. Probably closer to $65 including the fancy wheels. Won't hold inverted, likely due to the KF3 airfoil, but it wasn't intended to be an aerobat. It's on it's second wing, and the breakaway nose has been glued back on at least twice. I prefer to have the nose give way instead of destroying the motor and prop.

DavidR8 02-01-2014 04:33 PM

Silly question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maxflyer (Post 938693)
$60 includes the gear (except for battery). Roughly...Less than $20 each for the motor, ESC, and clone Hitec 4CH Rx, plus three 9G servos. Maybe $2-3 worth of foam. Probably closer to $65 including the fancy wheels. Won't hold inverted, likely due to the KF3 airfoil, but it wasn't intended to be an aerobat. It's on it's second wing, and the breakaway nose has been glued back on at least twice. I prefer to have the nose give way instead of destroying the motor and prop.

It's a very slick design, did you build your trainer from plans?

JetPlaneFlyer 02-01-2014 05:52 PM

Personally I'm not sure what the fuss is about when people talk about learning to fly with ailerons. personally I don't think ailerons are inherently any harder to fly with than the same plane that has rudder only.

The main things that make a plane easy to fly are:
  1. Slow fling speed
  2. High stability.
Having ailerons has no detrimental effect on either of these things.

What usually makes planes that have ailerons harder to fly is not the ailerons themselves but the overall design of the plane. Often aileron equipped planes are faster flying and less stable, but that's nothing directly to do with the ailerons.

I taught my flying buddy to fly on an aileron equipped trainer, which did the job just fine.

maxflyer 02-01-2014 07:25 PM

I think the aileron challenge simply involves the fact that there is now another control and another axis involved. The inclusion of ailerons to the mix implies that you must now know how to implement COORDINATED flight. I have always said it's harder to fly an RC model than it is to fly a real airplane. The challenge comes from NOT being inside the aircraft, and the only feedback you get is visual. The game simply consists of learning how to make particular control inputs with your hands, that result in an expected visual response from the aircraft. Flying with "reversed control inputs" as the aircraft is coming towards you is not natural. It's a learned response. It requires development of motor control skills that become second nature. It involves getting past the point where one has to conciously THINK about everything they do.

On a 3CH model you are essentially controlling the aircraft's position with a single hand. The addition of ailerons moves one of the essential orientation controls to the OTHER hand. The other hand now has more to think about than throttle control. Yes, a fast, responsive airplane can get waay ahead of the unskilled, but I think it's primarily a matter of developing muscle memory. I think we've all had the experience of watching a model drill itself into the Earth while we are still thinking about which controls should be doing what.

In spite of what is sometimes claimed, I think it's easier for real pilots to fly RC because we already fully understand the purpose and function of all the controls. We just have to take time to develop the muscle memory. I don't think it takes a novice much time to realize that having ailerons actually INCREASES options and control. It doesn't just add difficulty.

The Driveway Diva was not built from plans. The airframe components are very basic (sophistication is not necessary for flight). The proportions could be taken from any number of factory airplanes, or even free-flight designs. The Driveway Diva's primary purpose was simply to get my muscle memory to the place I have described earlier. You later realize that it's just simple fun to fly when you want a bit of airtime without the stress of worrying about a "pretty" or expensive airplane.

JetPlaneFlyer 02-01-2014 07:39 PM

I know many RC flyers who have flown aileron for decades and never touch the rudder except for take off. While I'm not advocating this as a good idea, on most planes it's perfectly possible to do it.

So really flying aileron, at least once you are off the ground, doesn't have to be any different at all to rudder only. You can still fly by just using the right stick. Even for those planes that really need some rudder coordination (not any trainer I know of ) you can program a mix in the Tx.

FWIW I agree with you that if you have rudder and ailerons you should get used to coordinating both, but on most models it's not a necessity.

maxflyer 02-01-2014 08:26 PM

Yes, we get away with a lot in the model world. The Driveway Diva does just fine without rudder (the large arrow-like tail, and slight dihedral probably contribute to that). Rules seem to matter little at this scale. Still, being a trained pilot, I am too aware of what uncoordinated flight does to real airplanes and usually want to bring that training into the model world as well. The airplane doesn't give a hoot, but I do.

DavidR8 02-02-2014 12:16 AM

Just back from a two-pack flying session. Would have flown my other two packs but is was 32 degrees and the wind was picking up.

I think my apprehension is the move from 3 ch to 4 ch. Even though I'm flying exactly the same plane I was expecting that adding ailerons was suddenly going to make it much less stable, self-righting etc.

It was none of those things. Stick left, bank left, a bit of up elevator and around she went.

When I added some rudder into the mix (manually), it really changed how it turned: nicely banked, tail in line, arcing turns.

I was directly behind the plane on a few turns without rudder and the 'dragging the tail' effect was obvious.

I don't have any aileron differential programmed in but I might do that to reduce the adverse yaw.

Lining up for landings was very challenging though. I was either too short or too long. Never did reach the point where I was lining it up and bring it in as though I was using a runway.

pizzano 02-02-2014 12:45 AM

Are you referring to the super cub....?

"Just back from a two-pack flying session. Would have flown my other two packs but is was 32 degrees and the wind was picking up.

I think my apprehension is the move from 3 ch to 4 ch. Even though I'm flying exactly the same plane I was expecting that adding ailerons was suddenly going to make it much less stable, self-righting etc.

It was none of those things. Stick left, bank left, a bit of up elevator and around she went.

When I added some rudder into the mix (manually), it really changed how it turned: nicely banked, tail in line, arcing turns.

I was directly behind the plane on a few turns without rudder and the 'dragging the tail' effect was obvious.

I don't have any aileron differential programmed in but I might do that to reduce the adverse yaw.

Lining up for landings was very challenging though. I was either too short or too long. Never did reach the point where I was lining it up and bring it in as though I was using a runway."


Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidR8 (Post 938077)
I added ailerons to my Super Cub over the past week. Took her out for my first flight with ailerons.

All in all,it went well. Very calm day but had a couple of holy crap moments when a gust came out of the blue and basically sent her nose up into a stall. I think she's a tad tail heavy.

Despite the number of hours on the sim, flying in the real world is different.

Seems like progress...curious how much dihedral your'e flying with...?...to little/to much will have an impact on aileron authority.......especially on that cub.

DavidR8 02-02-2014 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzano (Post 938842)
Are you referring to the super cub...

/snipped/

Seems like progress...curious how much dihedral your'e flying with...?...to little/to much will have an impact on aileron authority.......especially on that cub.

Yes it was my Super Cub.

The dihedral measures an 1" and 1/8 +/- on the wing tips. I have no idea what that stock measurement is.

Dragonflyer 02-02-2014 04:30 AM

Perfectly coordinated rudder, aileron, elevator.
DF aka Bill

DavidR8 02-02-2014 04:49 AM

That is amazing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonflyer (Post 938879)
Perfectly coordinated rudder, aileron, elevator.
DF aka Bill

I have trouble filling a glass using a pitcher at the best of times!

maxflyer 02-02-2014 06:23 PM

I avoid differential. I never want to forget the proper and necessary inputs for coordinated flight. Differential makes for....."lazy piloting." I might consider adding a bit during flap deployments, simply because it keeps me from having to fumble for another switch on my TX, and having to take my one good eye off the aircraft. It's not hard to become a bit Ho-Hum about model flying as it is. Simplifying the flight duties is likely to make me bored with it all that much sooner.

JetPlaneFlyer 02-02-2014 07:22 PM

FWIW many full size 'real' planes use differential.


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