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-   -   Manzano Laser Works P47 Thunderbolt (http://www.Wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73210)

thepiper92 02-18-2014 07:03 AM

Manzano Laser Works P47 Thunderbolt
 
4 Attachment(s)
Well, I decided to do another build. I am not completely happy with the P51 build I did, mostly due to the fact that it is an older design, and parts like the retracts are hard to come by. I will still be flying it, but may have an issue with the retracts. As for the P-47, well I wanted another build, but didn't quite what to do a short kit yet. Looking over the build thread on another forum (Manzano links to it): http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=835840, I found that it may be easier to mod in the smallest servoless retracts. The reason being is that someone stated to have used .10 retracts, which are more or less the same size as the retracts I will be getting in soon. Again, this build will be iPod quality pics, which means grainy, and at somewhat random angles/a little distant.

thepiper92 02-18-2014 07:09 AM

2 Attachment(s)
I decided to get the easiest parts out of the way first, or rather the parts that didn't require me to mess around with unfolding the plans a lot...although that is inevitable. Even the horizontal stab and elevator are more difficult to put together, due to having no slots in which the pieces hold together. This means that either I need a different surface to use pins, or use the carpenters glue, which gives me time to shape while the glue is drying. Overall it wasn't too difficult, other than bending the wire for the elevator (I'm not a fan of the wire bending).

BroncoSquid 02-18-2014 06:59 PM

This kit is quite a step up from the tounge and groove building of the P51. If you can build this, you can build just about any kit out there. Take your time and focus on building it straight. I use a simple celing tile from a hardware store with several coats of clear laquer (to keep the dust down), t-pins, and a few small drafting triangles. I am looking forward to watching your progress.
[popcorn]

rcers 02-18-2014 07:26 PM

This is an awesome flier. :) Light and fluffy!

thepiper92 02-18-2014 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoSquid (Post 940315)
This kit is quite a step up from the tounge and groove building of the P51. If you can build this, you can build just about any kit out there. Take your time and focus on building it straight. I use a simple celing tile from a hardware store with several coats of clear laquer (to keep the dust down), t-pins, and a few small drafting triangles. I am looking forward to watching your progress.
[popcorn]

I seem to be doing fine without pins, and with elastics instead. I glue a few parts and use elastics at certain areas to get the bends I require. So far the fuse is near perfect, although on of the frame parts is too far forward, but only by a few mm, due to the glue popping off the area and having to be reglued.

thepiper92 02-18-2014 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcers (Post 940318)
This is an awesome flier. :) Light and fluffy!

So far it seems a little bit stronger than the p51, hopefully less prone to warping when shrinking. Looking at the plans, it seems like it will be easier to mod to get the servoless retracts in.

rcers 02-18-2014 08:26 PM

You MUST use the light covering. Nelson So-Lite, sold under several other names too. Using full strength Monokote or Ultracote stuff will not work. This light stuff won't warp it - guaranteed. :)

Mike

thepiper92 02-18-2014 08:31 PM

4 Attachment(s)
So far so good with the build, have about half of the fuselage done, maybe a little more. It's hard deciphering where a few of the parts go on the plane, specifically some of the support area for the hatch. The side view shows it, but the top view doesn't, so I can guess that it isn't wider that the frame area. Furthermore, the planes show stringers of both sizes extending all the way down the fuselage, but the issue is they are not long enough. This means that some will have to be glue together.

thepiper92 02-18-2014 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcers (Post 940328)
You MUST use the light covering. Nelson So-Lite, sold under several other names too. Using full strength Monokote or Ultracote stuff will not work. This light stuff won't warp it - guaranteed. :)

Mike

Solite warped the p51 :/

It will attempt covering with ultracote, it adheres much better than solite. I used it on the p51 as well for the red tail, and it did not seem to warp. Just have to be careful with the shrinking.

rcers 02-18-2014 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepiper92 (Post 940330)
Solite warped the p51 :/

Not sure what you are doing - but I have never had it warp anything - even on stuff MUCH lighter than this. ????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepiper92 (Post 940330)
It will attempt covering with ultracote, it adheres much better than solite. I used it on the p51 as well for the red tail, and it did not seem to warp. Just have to be careful with the shrinking.

First - it is too heavy for this plane.
Second - Brave - hard to use that without warps. This does have a good structure but man you will have to really be careful...

Some questions - what iron are you using? What temp setting you on? I suspect you may be attempting shrinking a great deal too much....

Mike

thepiper92 02-18-2014 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcers (Post 940331)
Not sure what you are doing - but I have never had it warp anything - even on stuff MUCH lighter than this. ????????



First - it is too heavy for this plane.
Second - Brave - hard to use that without warps. This does have a good structure but man you will have to really be careful...

Some questions - what iron are you using? What temp setting you on? I suspect you may be attempting shrinking a great deal too much....

Mike

Oh sorry, it will be the parklite ultracote, not the standard one. I am using a pro trim iron from hangar 9, it works well with parklite, adhere instantly and shrinks well.

rcers 02-18-2014 08:51 PM

2 Attachment(s)
That covering will help... But I am still not wild about the park lite as it takes pretty good heat to shrink. It is easier to work with though (much).

So you really cover with a trim iron? :) Not this type? We found the reason. :) The heat control on the trim iron isn't correct for general shrinking.

Use the flat iron with sock. Use the lowest temp possible to stick and shrink.

Mike

thepiper92 02-18-2014 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcers (Post 940333)
That covering will help... But I am still not wild about the park lite as it takes pretty good heat to shrink. It is easier to work with though (much).

So you really cover with a trim iron? :) Not this type? We found the reason. :) The heat control on the trim iron isn't correct for general shrinking.

Use the flat iron with sock. Use the lowest temp possible to stick and shrink.

Mike

I use a heat gun for shrinking, tack the covering with a trim iron. With park lite, just a tap of the iron adheres it well, then stretch and tack again, then shrink. Solite won't adhere unless it bends around a corner.

rcers 02-18-2014 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepiper92 (Post 940336)
I use a heat gun for shrinking, tack the covering with a trim iron. With park lite, just a tap of the iron adheres it well, then stretch and tack again, then shrink. Solite won't adhere unless it bends around a corner.

NO! This is why you are having issues with Solite.... Heat gun is WAY, WAY too much heat! That is why you are warping stuff, and I also suspect burning holes in it (right?:))

Irons are the right way to do covering jobs. In 37 years I have never owned a heat gun and wondered why anyone does. Also with Solite there are a few tricks one is a pre-stretch when possible - especially on flat stuff.

Iron and stock - 100% of your issues will go away. They will allow you to use much lower heat to get the job done. The trim iron for really tight spots work great.

Mike

thepiper92 02-18-2014 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcers (Post 940339)
NO! This is why you are having issues with Solite.... Heat gun is WAY, WAY too much heat! That is why you are warping stuff, and I also suspect burning holes in it (right?:))

Irons are the right way to do covering jobs. In 37 years I have never owned a heat gun and wondered why anyone does. Also with Solite there are a few tricks one is a pre-stretch when possible - especially on flat stuff.

Iron and stock - 100% of your issues will go away. They will allow you to use much lower heat to get the job done. The trim iron for really tight spots work great.

Mike

Burn holes....what burn holes...never...well maybe a couple. The heat gun I use has a low setting, a little hotter than a hairdrier. I burnt solite as it doesn't like to shrink; the force of the air seems to stretch the solite. Some one told me that heat guns are good, so I went that path. I'm quite good with one now though. The reason why the p51 warped was the trailing edge was too soft of balsa, plus I sanded it too thin. I made new pieces and recovered, no warping. I used park lite on some thin areas without problems. The heat gun is tricky though, much easier your way.

rcers 02-18-2014 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepiper92 (Post 940342)
The heat gun is tricky though, much easier your way.

Yep. As you point out - the heat from a gun is MUCH too subjective. Too close over shrink and warp to far nothing, just right hard to do.

Iron with good regulated temp - right 100% of the time.

Mystery solved. :)

thepiper92 02-18-2014 10:11 PM

I'll see about getting a different iron. I am sort of used to a heat gun now, have to be quick and careful with distance, probably more relaxing with an iron. First ill have to see how the balsa part goes.

Forge 02-19-2014 12:03 AM

Piper,

Best of success with your new build. I also put that plane together a few years back and it is a great flier. Very smooth and forgiving.

I also recommend using an iron for covering as I also found that it gives me more control...

I did post a build log a couple of years ago that you may find of interest. I also modified a few of the designs of the plans, like sheeting the front top of the wing for extra strength, plus it may help you avoid warping when covering. And, adding a steerable tail wheel. The plane had no problem with a little extra weight.

here's the link to my build log, if you're interested:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...&highlight=p47

I also have a video of my maiden flight on page 3... it was a fun one... you may get a laugh.

Good luck! [popcorn] I'll be watching.

Forge

rcers 02-19-2014 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepiper92 (Post 940347)
Probably more relaxing with an iron. First ill have to see how the balsa part goes.

Yep it us. And you won't warp your airplane or burn holes in stuff. Trust us.

thepiper92 02-19-2014 01:49 AM

B:rolleyes:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Forge (Post 940366)
Piper,

Best of success with your new build. I also put that plane together a few years back and it is a great flier. Very smooth and forgiving.

I also recommend using an iron for covering as I also found that it gives me more control...

I did post a build log a couple of years ago that you may find of interest. I also modified a few of the designs of the plans, like sheeting the front top of the wing for extra strength, plus it may help you avoid warping when covering. And, adding a steerable tail wheel. The plane had no problem with a little extra weight.

here's the link to my build log, if you're interested:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...&highlight=p47

I also have a video of my maiden flight on page 3... it was a fun one... you may get a laugh.

Good luck! [popcorn] I'll be watching.

Forge

What did you use for the tail wheel, and does that connect right to the rudder, or two seperate rods. It's seems you covered individual parts, does the horizontal and vertical stab and wings just slip in, what holds them in place? What control rods did you use? I like your retract setup, specifically the axle parts than look like they can be adjusted on the retract, rather than bending the wire.

Forge 02-19-2014 02:12 AM

Piper,

I built that baby about 5 years ago… :roll: I think the tail wheel was just some dubro small wheel, and the control wire ties right into the rudder servo with a little bit of epoxy…. kinda jury rigged it. You could have it attach somehow right to the rudder.

The stab just glues onto the back of the fuselage and the elevator is connected with a wire. The main wing is pre assembled, then cover it and then slide it into the cutout in the fuselage. When you are happy with the position of the wing just glue it into place with a few drops of glue.

…oh the retracts. they are fun and make a difference in the way the plane flies, but they are a pain to get working smoothly...::o but they are fun. I recommend it although others might say it's not worth it. after using some of the prefab electric retracts like the e-flite one's, I may never go back to the mechanical set up… although the prefabs are more money… they do work nicely.

good luck! :ws:

Forge

thepiper92 02-19-2014 02:30 AM

Is it just one servo for the ailerons. It's hard to tell in the plans, it seems as they go through the wings, bending back. I was thinking of using the Sullivan rods with the metal connectors. The nylon ones are a tad too flexible. I will still attempt to fit servoless retracts. How do you mean wire holds in the elevator, it isn't glued in place? Did you find the stringers long enough for the fuse?

Forge 02-19-2014 03:00 AM

Piper,

I believe you're right, the plan calls for one aileron servo. I ended up going with 2 aileron servos, mounting one into each wing. It adds a little weight, but it's a lot easier to set up and gives you a lot easier adjustment for tweaking. and more power for control…your call.

regarding the elevator, I just used a small piece of straight wire and bend about a 1/4" 90 degree bend into each end of the wire. Then push (or drill) the 1/4" piece into the back of each half of the elevator. epoxy in place on a flat surface and you've connected the 2 halves of the elevator together….hope this make sense. ::o

Forge

thepiper92 02-19-2014 03:11 AM

Oh I did that, the halves are connected with the wire provided. First think I did lol. Do you slip in the elevator, then the stab, gluing the stab in. That's what I did with the p51. Sorry for all of these questions, I like to know before I get to that points. This is my first build without directions, and with the p51 I used more directions than plans. Also the p51 has better labeled plans. The p47 plans have arrows pointing with no label, and some sizes are wrong it seems. I can't figure out the 5 inside a hexagon, and the 7 too...at least the fuse looks okay. At looking at your build it seems the stringers end at the k piece area I believe. The plans make it look like they continue. I built my fuze differently, gluing the frame pieces to the subframe, rather than gluing the sub frame then the frame parts on top. This gave me more to grab onto I feel.

Forge 02-19-2014 03:39 AM

Piper,

No problem, glad to help…

Again it was a long time ago….but I believe I glued the entire elevator assembly onto the fuse (after it was covered.) then I glued the rudder stab next, and finally the rudder surface.

There is also really excellent build log posted on RC groups here, which I found to be a huge help. And, I do remember this build being a challenge. Interestingly enough I built the Mountain Models P51 first, followed right after by the Manzanolaser P47. The P47 was a challenge without instructions…. :<:

here's the link to the other build:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=835840&page=3

Good luck

Forge


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