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-   -   Help me get better.....please! (http://www.Wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73311)

Bill Gibson 03-08-2014 03:23 PM

Help me get better.....please!
 
Wanted to know if someone could walk me thru stick movements as to how to perform a "knife edge", and "hangin on the prop? Which would be beter to attempt first? Im doing loops, rolls right and left, and inverted flight, and id like to keep pushin for more...preferably without tearin up my plane too bad!:rolleyes: Im flying a UMX Sbach, and a UMX Yak 54. im open to any and all advice! Many Thanks!:) Bill

pizzano 03-08-2014 03:28 PM

Seems you have a couple of decent planes for the task....take a look at this link:

http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...3d-aerobatics/

As you will find, outside of having developed some decent pilot skills, plane set-up is most critical....;)

JetPlaneFlyer 03-08-2014 03:43 PM

Everything is all about practice but knife edge is generally easier than prop hanging.

Getting the rudder movement direction correct is also obviously of key importance if you don't want to re-kit your model. The way i learned was by the rule that if the canopy is toward you the rudder stick moves toward the tail of the plane. If the canopy is away from you then the rudder stick moves toward the nose.

What makes knife edge easier to do is setting up knife edge mixes (KE Mixes) on your Tx. You generally need two mixes, rudder to aileron and rudder to elevator. The idea to to compensate for the natural roll and pitch coupling that most planes have to some extent when you apply large rudder deflection. Having the mixes set up means that when you perform knife edge your work load is reduced a lot.

To set the mixes just do a knife edge and see which way the plane goes when you add rudder. It will most likely either tuck toward it's belly or pull toward the canopy. Set up a mix off the rudder to apply elevator to compensate, some trial and error is always required. Same story goes for the aileron mix, watch which way the plane rolls when you add rudder and mix it out.

Some people think mixes are 'cheating' I strongly disagree. Assuming you have a computer Tx then these features are built in, you paid for them, you may as well use them. All the worlds top aerobatic flyers use mixes, so unless you think your skills are better than theirs then I say use mixes.

Hovering on the prop is quite a difficult skill to master. You would be better to build up to it by working on your harriers (high alpha). Use up rudder is key to both harrier and prop hanging (and to knife edge). Proper use of rudder is about the most important skill to master if you want to move beyond the most basic aerobatics.

JetPlaneFlyer 03-08-2014 03:45 PM

PS.. check out these videos too: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904349

dahawk 03-08-2014 03:57 PM

Thanks Jet !
I also notice a lot of guys adjusting the throttle curve when flying 3D. Kind of like expo for the throttle. Plan to start flying my 540T soon

JetPlaneFlyer 03-08-2014 04:52 PM

Yeah, i use a throttle curve, the curve is the opposite of what you would use on control surfaces, it's 'humped up' in the middle.

Bill Gibson 03-08-2014 09:43 PM

Thanks guys! I had no idea that setting up the radio & plane for aerobatics was so important! JPL, it figures that proper use of the rudder is so important to go beyond basic aerobatics.....that IS my WEAKIST part of flying....! Im your typical, LAZY, aileron using sport flyer!:rolleyes::Q

hayofstacks 03-09-2014 03:00 AM

Use a ton of rudder it goes far. prop hanging requires a well setup plane and rudder. I can actually prop hang my slow stick until the lack of aleroins kicks in and I lose orientation.

The more capable the plane is, the easier the maneuvers become as long as you have it setup properly.

Bill Gibson 03-10-2014 12:12 AM

Okay...what is a Harrier?(high Alpha)?.......im clueless! :confused::)

fhhuber 03-10-2014 02:40 AM

Harrier in "3D" aerobatics is high alpha (usually around 30 to 40 deg nose up) at moderate power for as close to vertical decent as possible without hanging on the prop. Variations include more power to hold or gain altitude and the rolling harrier where constant aileron is applied and coordinating rudder and elevator to keep the nose up.

CHELLIE 03-10-2014 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Gibson (Post 941942)
Wanted to know if someone could walk me thru stick movements as to how to perform a "knife edge", and "hangin on the prop? Which would be beter to attempt first? Im doing loops, rolls right and left, and inverted flight, and id like to keep pushin for more...preferably without tearin up my plane too bad!:rolleyes: Im flying a UMX Sbach, and a UMX Yak 54. im open to any and all advice! Many Thanks!:) Bill

If you want to get good real real fast and not worry about Crashing an expensive plane, get a Profile Foam Plane, they are cheap and you can throw them around with out worrying about crashing them, they take the fear factor out of Learning, these planes repair real easy with 5 min epoxy or CA glue, then your off flying again, the motors are cheap as well as the esc and lipos, use a 1000 to 1400kv motor, a 7x6 prop, 30 amp esc and a 1300mah 25C lipo, give the motor 5 degrees of down thrust to load the main wing, flat wings need motor down thrust to stabilize them so they dont porpoises up and down, I call it the Isometric Effect :D no R or L thrust is normally needed on a profile plane, and give the controls lots of movement, balance the plane at 25% back from the front leading edge to start with, and move the cg back little at a time to find the sweet spot, These cheapy foam planes will make you real good real Quick :ws: Hope that helps, Chellie

http://www.3dfoamy.com/index.php?opt...ory_pathway=10

http://www.3dfoamy.com/media/com_hik...oad/su26mx.jpg

CHELLIE 03-10-2014 06:38 AM

How to fly 3D
 

CHELLIE 03-10-2014 06:41 AM


Bill Gibson 03-10-2014 10:18 PM

Thanks for yet more great info!! Chellie, those videos are great! Looks like i will try starting out practicing Harriers!

GunnyJeeves 03-12-2014 04:53 PM

Greetings there fellow flyer... I am a weird sort of guy. I learn on my own usually, and don't usually mind challenging the "norm".

I learned 3D first by accident. Like many kids I always wanted to fly. (I cut grass for three years to save money for a sweet stick when I was 13... only to find out that I was short a hundred or so dollars for all the random crud you need with a gas or nitro motor to actually fly it.)

My hopes dashed, I was married and had three kids before I got my first flyer. It was a beginner plane, RTF. MISTAKE!!! (In my case anyway.) Based on control throws, I could not turn it around in a baseball field, so it was one and done.

My first success was a foam Extra 300. I crashed it nearly every flight, added some glue and toothpicks and flew it again the next day. Eventually I could fly it. I wanted to make it more approachable, so my next planes I set the expo. HAPPY MISTAKE!!!

I read Futaba expo (Negative to soften the controls... Positive to make em more sensitive) and had a Spektrum radio. Flew like crap, so I tried to "Soften it more" made it worse and figured it was me. I flew like that a while, then realized I had the expo backwards. By then I was a pretty capable pilot who was at least comfortable not having to move the sticks more than a millimeter or two, but if need be I could jack-knife it mid air and power out of nearly anything as long as I had orientation.

I learned knife edge by gently rolling to the right at WOT, stopping at 90 degrees, and applying left rudder until it goes straight. Your elevator will balance it horizontal and your rudder + throttle manipulate the angle vertically. If you get it nailed, you can mix in some elevator with full rudder to counter this without your input.

A harrier is easy to learn. Get high up, nearly shut off the motor, and give full elevator up. (nose up) The plane will nearly be flat. Gently apply throttle until the plane slows and sits at a 45 degree angle. Add full throttle and let off elevator to pull out. Balance throttle and elevator to stay in high alpha. Get where you can get higher or lower alpha as you desire. Ailerons will be to balance. (Don't use em if possible, but wing rock is bad, and micros will wing rock like crazy. Better to pull out and try again.)

Finally a hover is simply a harrier that transitions to full vertical. (Same mechanics.)

To help illustrate, try to take a carbon rod or any stick. (broom etc...) Find the center. Put it on your finger, balanced, then walk around some and don't let it fall. You should notice that your corrections are small to keep it balanced.

Now take the same stick, broom etc, and balance it vertically on your finger. You can do it, but your corrections now might be 1-2 feet in any direction.

The closer a plane is to level (horizontally) the less control required to stabilize it. As you get closer to vertical, your control requirement increases on what is called a parabolic curve. (Like the curve shown in EXPO.)

I'd also agree with you needing to get an el-cheapo foam profile plane. In 3D throttle is always your "bail out". (so it is thrust to weight ideally at 2:1 but anything over 1:1 will hover.) Anything "extra" over say 1.2:1 allows you to pull out faster. Point blank, the cheapest way to achieve 2:1 is with a profile plane. (Basically a paper airplane with a motor) Also EPP is "bendy" and breaks less.

Here is a really really good one. I LOVE this one!

http://www.nitroplanes.com/02a-yak55-arf.html

Just add your receiver and battery and done! With an adapter JST to UMX can fly on your UMX batteries, and will have 2:1 easily.

fhhuber 03-12-2014 05:18 PM

What gets me about "3D" is a lot of the maneuvers were the way I was flying when I was learning... We used to call them mistakes. :p

pizzano 03-12-2014 05:38 PM

LOL.......I've spent more hours than I can count now just perfecting scale acrobatic flying with bi-wings and low wing military planes........I'm sure half of what I've done while trying to perfect scale would be considered 3D just because it's making the plane perform maneuvers completely non-scale and unrealistic by full scale standards........and providing plenty of anxiety for the bystanders and pilot......:D.....can't say it isn't fun though, just not what I'm trying to accomplish as I have been trained by my old school mentors......;)

GunnyJeeves 03-13-2014 07:07 PM

Best I can tell from reading / messing around 3D is flying a plane slower than stall speed.

I'd say it's the idea of controlling that plane that as far as physics say, should not be flying right now.

Your normal aerobatics are probably better for a crowd pleaser. (Like a blender, or typical gyroscopic slamming around you see from 3DHS and Extreme Flight that in a real plane would kill you before you even crashed :D)

What I see as 3D is flying low and slow. (Yes I still get crazy nervous while low) Harriers, High Alpha Knife Edges, Waterfalls, Flat spins etc.

When I actually fly I try to mix it up. High speed inverted passes, snap rolls, blenders, inverted harriers and some of that crazy gyroscopic stuff that made me fall in love with Extreme Flight. I rarely hover, and I can not maintain a high alpha torque roll. (Which I am guessing is rhythm based and apparently I don't have any.)

I'm just in it to have fun, but yeah I can relate to the "mistakes" looking like 3D.

WAY AFT CG --> DEATH (But looks like a harrier attempt gone wrong)
Forgot to set limits on servos on a Jet... --> Looks like a Russian airshow (Try to pull up a tad and the plane goes vertical and stops flips and does a cobra maneuver.)
Trimmed wrong --> Wonky knife edge while pilot is cursing like a sailor.
Servos reversed --> Probably the best and hardest snap roll you can ever perform.... just don't watch what happens next... :censor:

JetPlaneFlyer 03-13-2014 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhhuber (Post 942333)
What gets me about "3D" is a lot of the maneuvers were the way I was flying when I was learning... We used to call them mistakes. :p

Hmmm,

Point out the parts on this video that look like mistakes a beginner would make:
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Sure wish any part of my flying, let alone my mistakes looked that good:rolleyes:

fhhuber 03-13-2014 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer (Post 942438)
Hmmm,

Point out the parts on this video that look like mistakes a beginner would make:
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Sure wish any part of my flying, let alone my mistakes looked that good:rolleyes:


As far as I'm concerned its all one big mistake.

JetPlaneFlyer 03-13-2014 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhhuber (Post 942442)
As far as I'm concerned its all one big mistake.

That seems a little narrow minded to me. Even if you don't choose to fly that way I don't see how you can deny the skill involved.

Each to his own i guess.

pizzano 03-13-2014 09:06 PM

The biggest mistake a beginner would make......lol......would be trying any of those maneuvers, especially with a high end craft like the one shown.......best left to small foamie throw aways and guys who care not about scale application. I'm sure the guy in that vid flies anything anyway he likes........his skill set is very accomplished and everything related to set-up is spot on.....;)

Bill Gibson 03-14-2014 11:01 PM

Well, lets see...first, GunnyJeeves, i dont find you to be "weird" at all....you have a unique take on things and how to do "stunts"(old school term)! which i find to be very interesting! The posts after yours are opinions that i can see and respect both sides to....having been to full size air shows, things like violent snap rolls, 4-points at high speed, hanging the prop and harriers (now that i know what a harrier is) are common to see, so doing them with a model makes sense to me....i have no ambition of "perfecting" anything in aerobatics, id just like SOMEDAY to be able to do them, and i also prefer realistic tricks as to something i just dont understand....im just another sorry azzed sport flyer who used to fly nitro, but now thanks to these cheap, light, UMX planes, i can finally do STUPID STUFF without going bankrupt!!:Q:D AND its FUN!:)

pizzano 03-15-2014 12:34 AM

"but now thanks to these cheap, light, UMX planes, i can finally do STUPID STUFF without going bankrupt!!:Q:D AND its FUN!:)...."

That's certainly a key ingredient to the FUN aspect......there is also a certain amount of personal satifaction and confidence gained by "perfecting" the "mundane" scale acrobatic flight as well....with ones craft designed for such......;)

Bill Gibson 03-15-2014 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzano (Post 942551)
"but now thanks to these cheap, light, UMX planes, i can finally do STUPID STUFF without going bankrupt!!:Q:D AND its FUN!:)...."

That's certainly a key ingredient to the FUN aspect......there is also a certain amount of personal satifaction and confidence gained by "perfecting" the "mundane" scale acrobatic flight as well....with ones craft designed for such......;)

Very good point....even at the level that im at (EXTREMELY PATHETIC!) when i get away with even a full pass inverted, or a series of quick snap rolls that looked level and right, the feeling is exhilarating, and i want to do MORE!!:) And if its with a model that looks like a real plane, its even better!


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