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-   -   Dual rate and exponential settings (http://www.Wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73670)

Newbie55 05-02-2014 02:21 AM

Dual rate and exponential settings
 
I have only been flying for 1 season, currently using the E-Flight Apprentice.
Last season I used the 5 channel transmitter that came with the plane. I recently purchased the DX6i transmitter.
With the 5 channel transmitter it has training settings to limit the amount of lift, roll etc. so that it is easier to fly (training mode).
I was wondering if setting the dual rate and exponential on my new controller would do the same thing.
I am looking to set limits so that it is easier to fly as I gain more experience. I would like to be able to hold the aileron control all the way left or right and not have the plane roll completely over.....
Is this possible by setting these limit?
If so, what % would you recommend for aileron and elevator?
Thanks

fhhuber 05-02-2014 02:43 AM

Expo can make the center of stick movement less sensitive while still leaving full control throw available.

Dual rate will swap between full throw and some lesser amount depending on how you set it.

I personally prefer dual expo with the full thro always available if I need it. But this set up is a matter of what I am doing and can interfere with some styles of flying.

When using expo start at about 20% and adjust from there. Note that JR/Spektrum use reverse +/- value expo vs Futaba so you want to make sure you use the setting that will make the control less sensitive in center, not make it hypersensitive.

Similarly when you set up dual rates initially set one value to give the max control throw you are used to. and the other about 20% to 30% more (or less) So you can instantly put the plane back to what you are used to.

dahawk 05-02-2014 02:52 AM

Sounds like you really want to limit the travel .on the control surfaces. So with dual rates, set the high to the highest level you feel comfortable with and the low to something less than that. Or , mechanically limit the throws.

As a beginner, I found the throws for the elevator were more critical than the aileron. After all , how will you ever learn a barrel or axial roll maneuver?

kyleservicetech 05-02-2014 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahawk (Post 947057)
Sounds like you really want to limit the travel .on the control surfaces. So with dual rates, set the high to the highest level you feel comfortable with and the low to something less than that. Or , mechanically limit the throws.

As a beginner, I found the throws for the elevator were more critical than the aileron. After all , how will you ever learn a barrel or axial roll maneuver?

Fully agree. Nice thing about dual rates, and expo, you can change how sensitive the model is to transmitter stick travel without messing around with the servo arms and clevises.

As for aileron throw, I've got a Vyper model that, if you use recommended aileron throw, it will rotate about 4 times per second. It's impossible to stop it right side up with that level of control. This model has 50%, 70% and 100% on triple rates, plus about 30% expo on all of them.

Wrongway-Feldman 05-02-2014 03:39 AM

My rule of thumb has been that the faster the model flies, the higher expo I dial in.
It works for me as I have slightly shaky thumbs and when those speedsters start zooming it doesn't take a lot of stick to get them to respond.

thepiper92 05-02-2014 03:40 AM

You have to learn to stop aileron at the point you want and the turn with the elevator. Reducing aileron travel will technically slow roll rate, not stop roll, although on a high wing, it will likely stop roll, but making ailerons very slow acting. Treat ailerons the same as elevator. If you don't want looping, then don't go full elevator, but it you want a quick movement from elevator, go to a higher throw and then let off. High wings stabilize after ailerons are centered, but still have time to bank, and "yank" the elevator to swing the plane around. Exponential will allow controls to be less sensitive but allow you to move the plane around. For me, endpoint adjustment is something I use when the controls are so extreme at endpoints at 100%, and can cause control horns to collide with another control surface. I do this instead of manually decreasing throws. Also, too high of rates mskes thr flight too unstable at higher speeds. To make your plane roll less, exponential is what you need, allowing you to have slower movements, more controllable flight, but keep the endpoints that allow you to toss the plane of you with. It is unlikely that your plane has a high roll rate, so dumbing down endpoints shouldn't be too necessary. This is how I see it anyway. As for dual rates, you can have more extreme throws for slower speeds such as taxiing, takeoff and landing and then low rates for higher speeds where high rates would make everything erratic.

xmech2k 05-02-2014 05:22 AM

Hi Newbie, and welcome to WF. It looks in your post like you're expecting d/r and expo to limit the pitch and back of your plane? That is absolutely not the case. The SAFE system gyros and stuff in the rx do that, controlled by the 3 position switch on your dx5. You'll have to check the Apprentice manual for how to control SAFE with your dx6i.

solentlife 05-02-2014 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie55 (Post 947054)
I have only been flying for 1 season, currently using the E-Flight Apprentice.
Last season I used the 5 channel transmitter that came with the plane. I recently purchased the DX6i transmitter.
With the 5 channel transmitter it has training settings to limit the amount of lift, roll etc. so that it is easier to fly (training mode).
I was wondering if setting the dual rate and exponential on my new controller would do the same thing.

It should reduce the reaction of the model to your control input and make it less 'twitchy' ...

Quote:

I am looking to set limits so that it is easier to fly as I gain more experience. I would like to be able to hold the aileron control all the way left or right and not have the plane roll completely over.....
Is this possible by setting these limit?
Aileron at no matter what setting will cause a complete continued roll ... Reduced movement just slows it down. In fact rudder can do same but usually rudder causes roll and then into a rolling dive.

Quote:

If so, what % would you recommend for aileron and elevator?
Thanks
Basically take your 5 Tx and see what movements are with it normal and reduced ... reproduce those movement on the 6 by using the Dual rate function. With the expo - this softens the centre movement so I would suggest on a trainer like model no more than about 30% .. too much and you will feel mushy and then start over-controlling ..

Nigel

Yakfishingfool 05-02-2014 02:11 PM

Was playing wtih my DX8 yesterday and a new to me over wing pusher design plane - it's really cool to be able to set up REA's on DR and expo. Using the 3 position switches I set 0 as the 100% and the 1 as 70% and the 2 as 50%. I could find no literature on this plane as to high and low throw settings or else I would have set the DR using actual deflections. unfortunately it was extremely windy and for my first real aileron set up chose to fly RE only for the day. But it is set to go! SCott

Chucksolo69 05-02-2014 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmech2k (Post 947076)
Hi Newbie, and welcome to WF. It looks in your post like you're expecting d/r and expo to limit the pitch and back of your plane? That is absolutely not the case. The SAFE system gyros and stuff in the rx do that, controlled by the 3 position switch on your dx5. You'll have to check the Apprentice manual for how to control SAFE with your dx6i.

This is EXACTLY right. You simply cannot setup the DX6i as the DX5e with the three position "flight mode" switch. The DX6i has NO 3 position switch. You will be limited to 2 of the three flight modes if you fly it with the DX6i. Again, like Xmech said, the anti roll, anti dive/climb function in this plane is all controlled by the SAFE system programmed into the RX. DR and Expo has NOTHING to do with it at all.:oops:

solentlife 05-02-2014 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chucksolo69 (Post 947105)
This is EXACTLY right. You simply cannot setup the DX6i as the DX5e with the three position "flight mode" switch. The DX6i has NO 3 position switch. You will be limited to 2 of the three flight modes if you fly it with the DX6i. Again, like Xmech said, the anti roll, anti dive/climb function in this plane is all controlled by the SAFE system programmed into the RX. DR and Expo has NOTHING to do with it at all.:oops:

Which is why I explained to him about copying surface movement amounts to the Dx6i .. he's going to have to make the jump sooner or later from the baby-carriage SAFE to real flying ..

Nigel

pizzano 05-02-2014 05:36 PM

Welcome Newbie55....you've come to a great info place. Be patient, sorting through the various responses that fit your "specific need", at times, can be time consuming........;)

Thank you Xmech and Chucksolo for pointing out that the OP made it clear that his issue was directly related to his E-Flight Apprentice, Spektrum DX5 and DX6i......rather than explaining to a newbee, details of what they use or know about Expo & Dual-Rates, ect. ect......although could be helpful down the road.

The advice provided by you two, and pointing out the limitations of the specific craft and transmitters/reciever was spot on!

More often than not, simply keeping advice "specifically" related to the "facts" on hand and basic (particularly) for a new flyer, will serve much better as a "starting point" for discussion, rather than just posting a "helpful", "knowledge and experienced" filled response that may lend itself to confusion (by the OP) and continued, endless discussion by those who enjoy responding!

xmech2k 05-03-2014 12:35 AM

Thanks pizzano. I try! Now if only we can hear back from newbie55! Are you still here?

Newbie55 05-03-2014 01:11 AM

Yep, I'm here, just digesting all the information! Thanks to everyone for the help. Clearly I have a lot to learn but looking forward to advancing in my skills each flight.
So if I understand the consensus....the dual rate and exponential are used to "soften" the controls for a smoother flight. They have nothing to do with limiting the amount of throw, this is controlled by the SAFE feature built into the Apprentice model itself.
I'll read up on how to get my new controller to link with the SAFE technology of the Apprentice.
Thank you all again for the advice, I really appreciate the help.

xmech2k 05-03-2014 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie55 (Post 947138)
Yep, I'm here, just digesting all the information! Thanks to everyone for the help. Clearly I have a lot to learn but looking forward to advancing in my skills each flight.
So if I understand the consensus....the dual rate and exponential are used to "soften" the controls for a smoother flight. They have nothing to do with limiting the amount of throw, this is controlled by the SAFE feature built into the Apprentice model itself.
I'll read up on how to get my new controller to link with the SAFE technology of the Apprentice.
Thank you all again for the advice, I really appreciate the help.

Glad to hear you're still here, but your definitions or understanding of flight are still off. D/R and expo are all about how much control throws are. But control throws do not limit the amount of pitch or bank the plane is limited to. You can make control throws real small, so the plane will respond slowly, but that won't keep the plane from going upside down. It just means it will take longer to get upside down.

thepiper92 05-03-2014 03:08 AM

When you get away from the SAFE system and take control completely of the plane, that's when expo and all that stuff comes into play more. Expo softens movements, dual rate is for when you want the most control throws at slower speeds, giving you more authority with less wind going over surfaces. Switch to low rate to give less throw for normal flight, where more air is going over the surfaces. Sorry before, I skipped over the idea of the SAFE system. The system will take care off most things, making it not stall and such. Once you get away from it, I suggest not trying to duplicate it with settings, but learn what it is doing: it know when the plane will stall, you must learn to and correct. If you don't want a roll, you must learn to stop going right or left on the stick when you want the roll to stop. You can't make adjust the throws to a minimal to get what the system is doing, because it isn't doing that, it's stopping input to prevent various unwanted actions, and you simply must be that system. Take a look at stunt flight, the planes will roll 90 degrees, stop, roll another 90. This is from a stopping aileron input. For your apprentice, I would put on 20-30 expo, dual rates shouldn't be needed for it I feel.

solentlife 05-03-2014 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie55 (Post 947138)
Yep, I'm here, just digesting all the information! Thanks to everyone for the help. Clearly I have a lot to learn but looking forward to advancing in my skills each flight.
So if I understand the consensus....the dual rate and exponential are used to "soften" the controls for a smoother flight. They have nothing to do with limiting the amount of throw, this is controlled by the SAFE feature built into the Apprentice model itself.
I'll read up on how to get my new controller to link with the SAFE technology of the Apprentice.
Thank you all again for the advice, I really appreciate the help.

This is exactly what some people have posted against in other threads and forums - SAFE is a great AID to flying but needs to be understood for what it really is and how to move on from it. It also needs to be read up on ... to see how it affects controls and it's difference with a model without.
Sorry - but your understanding of SAFE and DR / Expo is still of the mark. SAFE provides a stabilising factor to assist in maintaining the model in the air .. to level out, to help correct learners errors. Bit like Fly by Wire.
DR and Expo are not same .. they adjust the control movements according to your settiings you make in Tx .. DR gives you two surface movement settings .. one with a lot of movement, other with reduced as you set in % of the first. Expo softens the .. in effect spreads out the movement in the first half of stick movement .. so you don't have the Bang Bang when you first move sticks.
DR and Expo do not give you SAFE Gyro techno aid .. there is no self recovery .. there is no stabilising effect.

My post #8 .. tried to help you understand what DR and Expo can do for you ... based on your questions ..

SAFE is great - but you need to move on .. I also believe that your model with SAFE - you have provision to switch it OFF and ON during flight ?

If so - Get up nice and high .. steady flight across one side to other .. switch OFF SAFE.. try fly a bit - switch back ON .. increase the time you fly without each time till you find that you do not really need it ... then swap to the 6i .. using the last bit of my #8 to set your control movements.

Nigel

xmech2k 05-03-2014 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solentlife (Post 947180)
....

SAFE is great - but you need to move on .. I also believe that your model with SAFE - you have provision to switch it OFF and ON during flight ?

...

Nigel

Yes, that's Expert Mode. You would still have AS3X, but no pitch or roll limits.

solentlife 05-03-2014 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmech2k (Post 947187)
Yes, that's Expert Mode. You would still have AS3X, but no pitch or roll limits.

That's ok .. I'm not a user of such ... but am looking to use the Orange 3 axis which I gather the AS3X will closely mimic ?

I'm not against such tools as some people ... for me - its' what people like that is important - not everyone flies same or wants to fly same.
I get a real satisfaction out of gliding round with the ASK21 .. or carving the air up as a maniacal speed machine .. Bith of which are totally different and also different to other people. Gyro's / SAFE is same as I'm concerned.

It is nice though if a person can progress on from it ... broadens the field .. allows them to fly other peoples models etc.

Nigel

Chucksolo69 05-04-2014 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solentlife (Post 947189)
That's ok .. I'm not a user of such ... but am looking to use the Orange 3 axis which I gather the AS3X will closely mimic ?

I'm not against such tools as some people ... for me - its' what people like that is important - not everyone flies same or wants to fly same.
I get a real satisfaction out of gliding round with the ASK21 .. or carving the air up as a maniacal speed machine .. Bith of which are totally different and also different to other people. Gyro's / SAFE is same as I'm concerned.

It is nice though if a person can progress on from it ... broadens the field .. allows them to fly other peoples models etc.

Nigel

Today at our field, the wind was blowing around 10-13 mph. I flew both my PZ Artizan and Visionaire and the difference the AS3X system makes when flying in the wind is uncanny; both planes flew straight and true with no buffeting or wind rocking. I also flew my Electrifly 40" Super Sportster in the same wind, and the wings were getting rocked about a bit while the other two planes remained rock steady. Doing aerobatics when the plane is not affected much by the wind is great fun and really fantastic. Some may view AS3X as an artificial crutch, but I assure you it isn't. It doesn't limit the airplanes flight at all like SAFE does, it just acts to enhance the experience.

Nigel, as for moving on from safe, it is just a flick of a switch away. Off SAFE, there is no difference in flight from the original Apprentice. The AS3X system is always on and it just helps maintain the plane in a rock steady state. ;) I was never, and still am not, a fan of the AS3X in the micro warbirds, but in planes like the Artizan and Visionaire, it is a marvelous system.

thepiper92 05-04-2014 12:49 AM

AS3X is great for small planes, like my UMX SBach. It doesn't stop you from screwing up, but on a apprentice sized plane, I think it is also something you should learn to get away from. It will correct every bit of wind and I think one must learn to deal with wind. Of course there is a limit, but if fly in wind, it's important to know what it does to the plane and adjust yourself. On micros, it is necessary as even light gusts toss the plane. For the apprentice, and similar sized or larger, I think it's necessary to learn flight with no aids.

kyleservicetech 05-04-2014 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solentlife (Post 947189)
That's ok .. I'm not a user of such ... but am looking to use the Orange 3 axis which I gather the AS3X will closely mimic ?

I'm not against such tools as some people ... for me - its' what people like that is important - not everyone flies same or wants to fly same.
I get a real satisfaction out of gliding round with the ASK21 .. or carving the air up as a maniacal speed machine .. Bith of which are totally different and also different to other people. Gyro's / SAFE is same as I'm concerned.

It is nice though if a person can progress on from it ... broadens the field .. allows them to fly other peoples models etc.

Nigel

I've got that little UMX Beast 3D bipe model with the gyro. From what I can determine, that gyro can't be turned off.

I flew it several days ago in 8 MPH winds, gusting to 16 MPH, per our clubs anemometer. It was getting bounced all over the place, but you could hear that gyro activating the servos, keeping it nice and level. IMHO, if that gyro could have been turned off, it would have been uncontrollable. This little model is fully acrobatic. Only negative thing about it, is when you turn the motor off for landing, it flies like a lead brick.

https://secure.hobbyzone.com/EFLU4850.html

thepiper92 05-04-2014 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech (Post 947225)
I've got that little UMX Beast 3D bipe model with the gyro. From what I can determine, that gyro can't be turned off.

I flew it several days ago in 8 MPH winds, gusting to 16 MPH, per our clubs anemometer. It was getting bounced all over the place, but you could hear that gyro activating the servos, keeping it nice and level. IMHO, if that gyro could have been turned off, it would have been uncontrollable.

I agree, the system makes micro planes flyable in winds. Once you get to a plane that can technically handle winds, the system takes away part of the learning. Same with the SBach, just drops when throttle is shut off. Landing isn't easy either, any wind wants to lift the plane. It is acrobatic, but not much more than a basic flier in wind.

kyleservicetech 05-04-2014 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepiper92 (Post 947226)
I agree, the system makes micro planes flyable in winds. Once you get to a plane that can technically handle winds, the system takes away part of the learning. Same with the SBach, just drops when throttle is shut off. Landing isn't easy either, any wind wants to lift the plane. It is acrobatic, but not much more than a basic flier in wind.

Yeah, these tiny models are fun to fly, but will never fly like a 60 inch or larger model airplane.

On the other hand, dropping in these little models from 5 feet, they flip over, and you go fly again. Do that with a giant scale model, and you'll be fixing something. :censor:

thepiper92 05-04-2014 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech (Post 947229)
Yeah, these tiny models are fun to fly, but will never fly like a 60 inch or larger model airplane.

On the other hand, dropping in these little models from 5 feet, they flip over, and you go fly again. Do that with a giant scale model, and you'll be fixing something. :censor:

SBach fell from 10, crumpled nose. It was when it got stuck in a tree, and found an empty bottle of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (I fly a minute from my work, which is a truck stop) and tossed it at the plane. The bottle is big, but light. The plane fell out of the tree and I almost grabbed it before it hit. A few tugs and the nose was good. Now when the plane went into a propelled dive into the field after I lost reception, it was 25 for a new fuse, and 20 for the prop, spinner and mount together.


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