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-   -   Full Scale E Flight Airbus (http://www.Wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73724)

pizzano 05-10-2014 05:08 PM

Full Scale E Flight Airbus
 
Airbus Group has success:

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/...ay_490_318.jpg

http://www.airbus-group.com/airbusgr...oup_e-fan.html

http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/vi...ctric-airplane

Watch the second link video.....it will remind many of those like Nigel, JPL, Chellie, Xmech, Hawk and others......what their doing on their work benches and PC's is not that far removed from what "billion dollar" aviation experts perform........minus the cash, material and tool surplus...:D

xmech2k 05-10-2014 09:33 PM

Neat! They're on the way, just some more refinement...

dahawk 05-11-2014 01:06 AM

Pizzano,

Great post. Pretty cool indeed. Supersize my edf please ! LOL

What's Jet-A going for nowadays ? I know 100LL is about 6 bucks a gal. There's about 6lbs per gal. I wonder how Lithium technology can compete with Fossil as a fuel source in terms of how much energy can be produced in watts versus the weight penalty of the battery itself? Of course, the fossil fuel gets burned but there's a power plant expending energy somewhere in order to re-charge the lipo. Always an interesting conundrum.

Probably wouldn't need 400hz ground power and for that matter, you get a lower weight electric brushless motor without the need for a first stage compressor, a constant speed drive, fuel pumps, plumbing, etc. Hey, it's only money !

Would be real cool if and when this ever becomes practical in our lifetime. At my age, I guess I shouldn't be buying green bananas but I'm sure this day will arrive.

Can just hear pilots conversing:: " How big is the esc you have in that thing?" LOL

Nanotechnology is probably the next big breakthrough. Just when Lipo disrupted NiCad, they'll be something that weighs less with more power coming down the pike.

CHELLIE 05-11-2014 01:28 AM

Thats neet :) All they need Now is a Small Gas/Jet fuel turbine Engine to turn a generator like they have on Electric Buses, and they can stay in the Air for a long time it will charge the batteries so they dont have to exchange Batteries :ws: That was my idea Airbus, I get the Royalties :Q :D ;-) and the jet exhaust can be used for additional thrust




http://www.defensepower.ch/images/15x15.gif10KVA Gas Turbine Generator http://www.defensepower.ch/images/tu...generator2.jpg
http://www.defensepower.ch/images/tu...generator1.jpg Enclosure: Chrom-Nickel
Gear: Integrated, maintenance free metal
Nominal RPM: 100.000 U/min
Nominal Power: 14 hp / 10,6 kW @ ISA standard atmosphere
Gearbox output: 20.000 U/min (gear ratio 5:1)
Turbinewheel: CNC manufactured from Inconel Superalloy
Lubrication: Light version - mixed lubrication
Industrial version - oil-circulation system

Fuel: Direct start with Jet fuel A1 and Diesel
Consumption: 170 ml/min only!!
Operation: Fully automatic with integrated brushless starter
Output Power: 10KVA cont.
Output Voltage: 28V/300A or 380VAC 3-phase
Immediate power (no warm up)
High power density and light weight
Low maintenance

kyleservicetech 05-11-2014 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahawk (Post 948093)
Pizzano,

Great post. Pretty cool indeed. Supersize my edf please ! LOL

What's Jet-A going for nowadays ? I know 100LL is about 6 bucks a gal. There's about 6lbs per gal. I wonder how Lithium technology can compete with Fossil as a fuel source in terms of how much energy can be produced in watts versus the weight penalty of the battery itself? Of course, the fossil fuel gets burned but there's a power plant expending energy somewhere in order to re-charge the lipo. Always an interesting conundrum.

Probably wouldn't need 400hz ground power and for that matter, you get a lower weight electric brushless motor without the need for a first stage compressor, a constant speed drive, fuel pumps, plumbing, etc. Hey, it's only money !

Would be real cool if and when this ever becomes practical in our lifetime. At my age, I guess I shouldn't be buying green bananas but I'm sure this day will arrive.

Can just hear pilots conversing:: " How big is the esc you have in that thing?" LOL

Nanotechnology is probably the next big breakthrough. Just when Lipo disrupted NiCad, they'll be something that weighs less with more power coming down the pike.

Only problem with these electric conversions. Again, its the battery.

Looking up energy content of gasoline versus Lithium Ion battery, gasoline (or similar type fuels) has about 43 Mega Joules per Kilogram of energy. That is about 16 horsepower hours. With perhaps 25% efficiency of a gasoline engine, that is about 4 horsepower hours.

A Lithium Ion battery is about 0.8 MJ/Kg or about 0.3 Horsepower Hours. Decent electric motors are running near 90% efficiency. For those that have heard of them, a super capacitor is about 0.018 MJ/Kg, completely out of the ball park.

So, even if you triple the energy capacity of a rechargeable battery, it's still way shy of an engine powered system. That shows up with our models, where an electric model might fly for 6 minutes or so, but putting in a gasoline tank with the same weight as that LiPo battery, you'd likely fly for over a half hour. Not a problem for our models, but for full sized airplanes, getting three hour flights at perhaps 150 MPH is a real design problem.

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Energy_densi...apn&ap=ask.com

CHELLIE 05-11-2014 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech (Post 948096)
Only problem with these electric conversions. Again, its the battery.

Looking up energy content of gasoline versus Lithium Ion battery, gasoline (or similar type fuels) has about 43 Mega Joules per Kilogram of energy. That is about 16 horsepower hours. With perhaps 25% efficiency of a gasoline engine, that is about 4 horsepower hours.

A Lithium Ion battery is about 0.8 MJ/Kg or about 0.3 Horsepower Hours. Decent electric motors are running near 90% efficiency. For those that have heard of them, a super capacitor is about 0.018 MJ/Kg, completely out of the ball park.

So, even if you triple the energy capacity of a rechargeable battery, it's still way shy of an engine powered system. That shows up with our models, where an electric model might fly for 6 minutes or so, but putting in a gasoline tank with the same weight as that LiPo battery, you'd likely fly for over a half hour. Not a problem for our models, but for full sized airplanes, getting three hour flights at perhaps 150 MPH is a real design problem.

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Energy_densi...apn&ap=ask.com


A Small gas turbine generator will take care of that, they are used on buses, and the buses can climb a hill at 65 MPH and not loose any speed due to batteries getting depleted

kyleservicetech 05-11-2014 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHELLIE (Post 948102)
A Small gas turbine generator will take care of that, they are used on buses, and the buses can climb a hill at 65 MPH and not loose any speed due to batteries getting depleted

Yup
Those gas turbines come in all sorts of sizes. Before retiring, I traveled to the East coast to work on some of our high voltage circuit breakers. They showed me a natural gas operated gas turbine that had a 750 Horse Power Diesel engine.

For a fuel pump.

CHELLIE 05-11-2014 01:53 AM

what might work well to is a Hybrid Lipos and Hydrogen Fuel cells to keep the batteries Charged and provide power.

Larry3215 05-11-2014 02:21 AM

Its a LOT less weight, less expensive and a good bit more efficient to drive the plane directly from a turbine (or any other fossil fuel engine) rather than use it to drive a generator to then drive a motor.

Its even less efficient AND heavier again, to use a turbine to drive a generator to charge a battery to drive a motor :)

Fossil fuels will remain the only practical way to power cars and especially planes for a long time Im afraid. We need a major break through before e-power can catch up and even begin to be comparable on a cost and/or efficiency basis to fossil fuels.

This stunt by Airbus is just advertising fluff :)

kyleservicetech 05-11-2014 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry3215 (Post 948107)
Its a LOT less weight, less expensive and a good bit more efficient to drive the plane directly from a turbine (or any other fossil fuel engine) rather than use it to drive a generator to then drive a motor.

Its even less efficient AND heavier again, to use a turbine to drive a generator to charge a battery to drive a motor :)

Fossil fuels will remain the only practical way to power cars and especially planes for a long time Im afraid. We need a major break through before e-power can catch up and even begin to be comparable on a cost and/or efficiency basis to fossil fuels.

This stunt by Airbus is just advertising fluff :)

Yup I agree. :cool:

CHELLIE 05-11-2014 02:42 AM

We had some Gas turbine generator / e powered Hybrid buses where i used to work at, they were neet, although not the perfect solution, they can help to double the range by just using fossil fuel alone. every little bit of Fossil fuel saved is great for our environment.

"We are very pleased with the success DesignLine has had in deploying our microturbines in their buses for a number of years. Hybrid electric buses, built by DesignLine and equipped with Capstone microturbines, have been operating in various parts of the world for approximately 10 years. In recent product demonstrations the ECOSaver IV hybrid buses when equipped with our turbine have seen up to a 100% improvement in fuel economy over a traditional diesel bus which equates to fuel savings of up to 6,000 gallons per year according to DesignLine," said Darren Jamison, President and Chief Executive Officer of Capstone Turbine Corporation.

CHELLIE 05-11-2014 03:38 AM

Ford and Hydrogen powered Spy Plane :D :D :D LOL

http://crispgreen.com/2010/07/boeing...ydrogen-plane/

http://crispgreen.com/files/2010/07/...ng-150x150.jpg



Hydrogen fuel cell plane

http://inhabitat.com/transportation-...el-cell-plane/

http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/...ogenjetpic.jpg

kyleservicetech 05-11-2014 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHELLIE (Post 948117)
Ford and Hydrogen powered Spy Plane :D :D :D LOL


Guess its got a few problems??

http://www.wired.com/2013/04/phantom-eye-2/

Hydrogen gas has something like 4 times the energy of jet fuel per kilogram. But, that is at some 10,000 PSI :censor:

JetPlaneFlyer 05-11-2014 11:55 AM

As pointed out above, batteries would have to become several times more efficient in terms of energy stored to weight before they could compete with conventional liquid fuels, to be realistic IMHO it's never going to happen because combustion fuels have the massive advantage of using the oxygen from the air as part of the combustion process. So that is weight they don't have to carry around, they literally pull it out of fresh air. Add to that the weight of liquid fuels depletes during flight making the plane lighter and more efficient.

Using a turbine to drive a generator to charge a battery to drive a motor to drive a prop/fan will never work efficiently in an airplane because you could save all the added weight and complexity and efficiency losses simply by powering the prop/fan directly from the turbine, like they already do today.

Hydrogen fuel cells certainly have potential but there are some pretty serious practical/safety issues to overcome first.

The fans seem like a strange choice for this Airbus demonstrator. I cant help wondering if using fans is more about image (it looks like a jet) than efficiency? Even with conventional turbine power the slower flying planes are more efficient with props (i.e. turboprops) only at high mach number is the turbo fan more efficient.

squidger 05-25-2014 10:07 PM

http://www.caradvice.com.au/287241/d...proved-safety/


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