If it aint broke, dont fix it?

[evlwevl]

In my 2.4ghz switch over, I just pulled out my old FM rx in exchange for a spektrum Ar6110e in my 3D bipe. Before this change over, I've had zero problems with my setup using my Airtronics Super6000 radio and Hitec 555 rx. In the last 2 years, I have converted most of my 11 planes using 6100s and 6110s with zero problems.

At RCX last month,I bought the final few AR6110e receivers to finish my FM to Spektrum conversion.

Needless to say, my first flight with this new receiver was disastrous, about 5 minutes in I lost motor power for about 2 seconds, luckily I was up about 30 feet fighting the wind and saved it. The next brown out wasn't so lucky. I was about to land it to see if the receiver was flashing and just when I made my final turn, I lost complete signal and it went straight in from about 30 ft up. This is my first brownout and it was not fun at all.

This has also been my first crash 10 years. Luckily it was only on a $20 airframe, but my piece of mind has been shattered with this rx.

The motor, battery, servos, esc all seem fine. I put the power setup on the bench and tried to recreate the flight. I'm not duplicating any gliches anywhere. Anyone have any ideas?

It makes me wonder if I had left that trusty Hitec 555 in there and used my 10 year old Airtronics Super 6000, this would have never happened.

So my next question is, Any recommendations for a replacement 3D airframe? My specs again.
Axi 2212/34
CC Phoenix 10
3 HS 55 servos
Thunder Power 1320 3S 15c Lipo

[CHELLIE]

Hi Evlwevl The AR6100 receivers are not a full range receiver, and have limited range, Also they are prone to masking, and Brown outs from low voltage, when using 2.4, Always use a UBEC to prevent a brownout from low voltage, the radio signal will sometimes get hidden with the battery or motor ( MASKING ) and you will loose your RF signal, it best to use a 2.4 Full range receiver, like a AR6200 with a satellite receiver to prevent masking and short range problems, Hope that Helps, Chellie

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...iversal/Detail

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...t=ubec+chellie

[CHELLIE]

Myself, I gave up on 2.4, I sold my DX6i radio and went back to 72Mhz, Just to many problems with 2.4 for me, With a JR 72MhzTransmitter and a Berg Receiver, thats a rock solid Radio system, the Berg Receiver will lock onto your Transmitter, its like having a 2.4 radio system but better IMHO, Why, No Short range problems, No Masking problems, No brown out problems and the Berg Receivers are about 3 times cheaper than a 2.4 full Range receiver, the 2.4 receivers that you want to watch out for are the AR6100, AR500, AR9000, AR600 those receivers have been giving people problems, Take care and have fun, Chellie

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59470

http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/ar500problem.shtml

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=46657

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1086164

http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...user_guide.pdf

[CHELLIE]

here is a nice Plane for you

http://3dxhobbies.com/airfoilz-edge-540nx.html



your Axi 2212/34 motor will power a plane up to 25oz

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/axi_gold_..._3015_prd1.htm

[evlwevl]

Hello Chellie,
In my full range gliders that I usually speck out, I plan on using 6200s or 6250s as recommended by Spektrum.
What I dont get is these micros were made for small parkflyers that cant accommodate a rx with a satellite. I currently have 5 parkflyers and 3D foamies that use the 6100 or 6110 with hundreds of successful flights logged and never an issue. Some of these planes have even less room in the fuse than this Bipe did, so the rx was as far back away from the motor and esc as possible.

I just put the motor with prop on a vice and attempted to mock a full flight trying to overload the BEC. I still couldn't get it to brownout again. I'm at a loss for what happend. I will definitely run an external BEC on my next flight with this power set and swap out the rx.

Thanks for the recommendation, looks like a nice flyer

[Larry3215]

How was your antenna placement? Was the rx tucked in with a bunch of wires or next to any carbon etc?

I just read an interesting article in RC Soaring digest where they did a number of tests on 2.4 antenna placement issues.

One thing they noted was that having the rx antenna laying up next to another wire - like a servo lead or balance plug lead or any other metal or any carbon fiber etc - would de-tune the antenna and drastically reduce range.

Even a small spacing made a big difference. It pretty much had to be touching to cause problems.

On the other hand, Ive seen many a 2.4 install where the rx was tucked into a nest of wires and there seemed to be no issues at all, but its something to note.

[evlwevl]

The antenna was placed on the sidewall inside the fuse with nothing around it. All the wires from the rudder and elevator servos run under a separate foam channel to the front of the plane. This was basic foam/ light ply construction with only 2 small carbon rods on the outsides of the wings for support. I'm thinking I might end up holding onto my FM radio and recievers in my full range gliders, cause this one has got me spooked.

[CHELLIE]

Originally Posted by evlwevl

The antenna was placed on the sidewall inside the fuse with nothing around it. All the wires from the rudder and elevator servos run under a separate foam channel to the front of the plane. This was basic foam/ light ply construction with only 2 small carbon rods on the outsides of the wings for support. I'm thinking I might end up holding onto my FM radio and recievers in my full range gliders, cause this one has got me spooked.

Hi its possible that your battery was low, and a sudden burst of power, WOT could have caused a low BEC voltage issue, and caused a brown out, if thats the case, a UBEC would have prevented that, just my 2 cents worth Keep your 72mhz as a back up, if your 2.4 Transmitter takes a Dump and try Berg Receivers on 72Mhz , They are the best of the Best, they are made by Castle Creation, I like the Berg 4L receiver on my park fliers, only use Berg Crystals, on all 72Mhz micro receivers, use scotch tape to hold the crystal in, because they have very small pins, and can vibrate out, Take care and Have fun, Chellie

http://www.thefind.com/instruments/b...berg-receivers

[Larry3215]

Doesnt sound like an antenna issue then.

Come to think of it, if it had been a signal issue, the plane would have gone into failsafe mode - probably power off and controlls neutral.

If it was a brown out, that could be caused by a bad or over loaded BEC on the p10 or a poor connection between the esc and rx or the esc lead coming unpluged.

You could also have had a servo hang up or jamming, but you said you tested everything after the crash?

The last possibility I can think of is you got a bum rx. A while back some people were having issues with the 6110E's IIRC, but I thought they got that fixed.

Still, every once in a while you get a lemon even from the good guys.

I wouldnt give up on 2.4 with just one rx issue. Its probably something unique to that particular setup or rx.

[CHELLIE]

I have had brown out issues with 2.4 too, No More though, because i went back to 72MHz LOL

[CHELLIE]

airfoilz Edge 540

[constantCrash]

Chellie, I love your posts and respect you a lot, but you've been bombing every single 2.4ghz thread with your (I went back) posts. Please stop. We all know you went back and don't regret it. But telling that does nothing to find this guy's failure.

From the sound of this one, I'd place my money on a loose power connection somewhere. What is the Bec rated at for the CC 10amp. It's possible that the servos had a stiff connection and caused a brownout, but I wouldn't put my money on that.

That, or a bad receiver, which happens (even on 72mhz) occasionally.

[CHELLIE]

Originally Posted by constantCrash

Chellie, I love your posts and respect you a lot, but you've been bombing every single 2.4ghz thread with your (I went back) posts. Please stop. We all know you went back and don't regret it. But telling that does nothing to find this guy's failure.

From the sound of this one, I'd place my money on a loose power connection somewhere. What is the Bec rated at for the CC 10amp. It's possible that the servos had a stiff connection and caused a brownout, but I wouldn't put my money on that.

That, or a bad receiver, which happens (even on 72mhz) occasionally.

Hi CC You know what, it upsets me when a newbie gets a 2.4 radio system, and is not aware of the issues with them, and wind up crashing because they were not aware of range issues, or masking, All I try to do is make people aware of these issues, so they dont crash a new plane and get discouraged with RC, More newbies are having problems with 2.4 than with 72 MHz, It should not be that way, you can read thread after thread of newbies having issues with 2.4, people that are aware of the 2.4 issues, use UBECs to prevent Brown outs, they use full range receivers if flying at a distance, i wish the makers of the 2.4 radios would be more up front, and educate people better about their product limitations, before people go out and buy a 2.4 radio, Ok I will Tone it down a little But you will have to Admit, Lots and Lots Of people are Having Issues with 2.4 and are Crashing nice planes and helis due to Radio Block out Problems, I read this in Forum after Forum, I am Sure you have too, anyway, just my 2 cents worth, Take care and Have fun, Chellie

[cptdragn]

And then along comes someone like myself that has over 50 various makers 2.4 receivers (many of them the "dreaded" AR6100's.) and to date, I had "1" failure of an AR6100 and it was DOA and never made it into a plane.
I even have one that burned up in an ESC fire that still works. I simply use it for a test receiver and haven’t reinstalled it into another plane. Should I ever run out of receivers and need to use it, I would in a second.

With all the different planes I have in my hanger, I’ve yet to have a brown out with any of them.

As for range, I’ve flown mine out to the limits of my eye sight (about 1800ft on a 28 in wing span F22 jet) and still had control. I simply could no longer determine which way it was going and being I was getting near a highway, chopped the power and elevator’ed it to the ground. I had control all the way down as well.

So, don’t trash 2.4 just because you have had such bad luck with it. As you can see from above, not everyone does.

And we now return you to the topic at hand;

You say you bench tested it to recreate the flight, did you move around the wires while moving the controls? I'm with CC that it sounds more like a loose connection rather than a brown out.
You thought you first had a brown out (motor died) and recovered.
What were doing at the time? Straight and level, 3D, a loop?
Any extreme maneuver could still point out a bad connection more that a brown out and I myself would assume that before thinking I had a receiver problem.
Lastly, you were going to land anyway after the first event to see if the receiver was blinking, Did you think to do so after the crash? As long as you didn't throw the batt away from the plane at impact, you would still be able to see if it was flashing or not.

[evlwevl]

In Reply:
After the crash, I did move around the wires while on the bench in the attempt to find a broken wire but to no avail. After the crash, the servos and connectors were still all tight. The battery was ejected but still connected to the esc. In my attempt to retrieve the downed plane, I completely forgot to look at the rx to see if it was flashing, while my focus was on disconnecting that lipo as fast as I could in case of fire. After I watched the lipo for a few hours for puffing, it did nothing....tuff little sucker. The setup continues to perform flawlessly on the bench with a solid light on the rx.

The first "brown out" I experienced was just after pulling out of a loop, the second in level flight with just aileron to line up for landing. I in fact reduced all the 3D throws from my FM setup, just to get a good second maiden on this new receiver so binding wouldn't occur which it had not in the previous settings. I'm going to continue to work with it on the bench till I find the culprit. I'm really hoping a broken wire will reveal itself, cause this setup is going in a Kyosho F-16 next.

Thanks everyone for trying to help locate the cause of this problem. As far as giving up completely on it, the odds are still in my favor and I have way too much invested in my Spektrum setups to just go back to FM permanently but I may leave my tried and tested FM setups alone in my gliders and just keep the 2.4 for all of my smaller aerobats.

It's a funny thing,when your plane leaves the ground, you put all of your faith in the components you've installed in the model. I don't believe in buying cheap brandless components from some offshore outlets for this very reason. I have been flying since the mid 90's so I consider myself lucky to have only lost a lousy $20 airframe at this point but this kind of thing rocks the foundation this hobby is based on...TOTAL CONTROL. Until you've experienced total loss of it, its easy to see how we take it for granted that our planes will make it safely back on earth in spite of numerous variables working against us. Like they say, think of your r/c aircrafts as being disposable.

Dead sticking this 3d model into the ground has just lost a little of that faith, but the most damaging thing to my psyche is that I cannot seem to replicate the brownout on the bench using the same exactly setup and approximate placement, even while loading up the prop in a stationary fashion at full throttle.

[Larry3215]

Brown out would be caused by excess servo loads - not motor loads.

Even if the ESC hits LVC, the rx will continue to see full voltage from the BEC.

The only reason BEC output voltage would drop is if the esc/bec over heated and shut down. In that case you would loose ALL controll, not just the motor.

[FlyWheel]

Originally Posted by evlwevl

In my 2.4ghz switch over, I just pulled out my old FM rx in exchange for a spektrum Ar6110e in my 3D bipe. Before this change over, I've had zero problems with my setup using my Airtronics Super6000 radio and Hitec 555 rx. In the last 2 years, I have converted most of my 11 planes using 6100s and 6110s with zero problems.

At RCX last month,I bought the final few AR6110e receivers to finish my FM to Spektrum conversion.

Needless to say, my first flight with this new receiver was disastrous, about 5 minutes in I lost motor power for about 2 seconds, luckily I was up about 30 feet fighting the wind and saved it. The next brown out wasn't so lucky. I was about to land it to see if the receiver was flashing and just when I made my final turn, I lost complete signal and it went straight in from about 30 ft up. This is my first brownout and it was not fun at all.

This has also been my first crash 10 years. Luckily it was only on a $20 airframe, but my piece of mind has been shattered with this rx.

The motor, battery, servos, esc all seem fine. I put the power setup on the bench and tried to recreate the flight. I'm not duplicating any gliches anywhere. Anyone have any ideas?

It makes me wonder if I had left that trusty Hitec 555 in there and used my 10 year old Airtronics Super 6000, this would have never happened.

So my next question is, Any recommendations for a replacement 3D airframe? My specs again.
Axi 2212/34
CC Phoenix 10
3 HS 55 servos
Thunder Power 1320 3S 15c Lipo

Your using a 2212/34 for 3D?! Wow! I wonder what I'm going to get out of my slow flier with the same motor?

Sorry 'bout the OT...

Posted via Mobile
Device

[jetjky1]

Sorry to hear about your crash. I myself am having my first issues with my 2.4 system. Just lost my second airplane within 1 week at 2 seperate flying fields. The ar 6100 and 500. I have 3 Expensive edf's I am terrified to fly now. I sent the Transmitter back to Spektrum to Check the RF unit. Also look into the new UPGRADE of the RF unit to DSMX technology. It is available this April and will cost $75 and 1 week of down time. It will still work on the older DSM2 RX's and newer DSMX ones as well. I think they are finally addressing the issues at hand.
BTW a great 3D Foamy is a Juka from DW Foamies.
Jeff

[evlwevl]

Im not very good with choosing a power combo but this one was ok. The 2212/34 is good for planes 10-25 oz. This one was probably at around 12oz or, but don't quote me on that. It had fairly decent punch out but could have been better and hovered about half throttle swinging an 11" prop.

I had spoken with spectrum reps a few weeks ago and here's what he told me. The update is for people who are going to be flying at events where 50 or more 2.4ghz radios might be flying at any one time and that If I never flew at large competitions, DSM2 was fine to stick with. There may be other reasons for the upgrade they arent talking about but Im going to take their word at face value.

When I was at RCX, DW Foamies was there demo'ing a bunch of planes. I jokingly said, I'm going to have to crash one of my planes first so I can free up a power set......well? be careful what you wish for.

[CHELLIE]

Originally Posted by jetjky1

Sorry to hear about your crash. I myself am having my first issues with my 2.4 system. Just lost my second airplane within 1 week at 2 seperate flying fields. The ar 6100 and 500. I have 3 Expensive edf's I am terrified to fly now. I sent the Transmitter back to Spektrum to Check the RF unit. Also look into the new UPGRADE of the RF unit to DSMX technology. It is available this April and will cost $75 and 1 week of down time. It will still work on the older DSM2 RX's and newer DSMX ones as well. I think they are finally addressing the issues at hand.
BTW a great 3D Foamy is a Juka from DW Foamies.
Jeff

Hi Jeff use the AR6200 Receiver on your EDFs, its a rock solid receiver for 2.4, also use a UBEC for added insurance, The E Power RC car guys, driving on carpet use a voltage protector capacitor, its has also been used on planes too to keep the voltage up on the receiver helping to prevent a brown out, We had a big discussion here on Wattflyers about Then and on RCG there was a big discussion on them too Originally they were developed for cars with heavy motor loads that were dropping the voltage so low, that the ESC/BEC could not feed the 2.4 receiver enough voltage, and they went into a brown out, A Charged Capacitor is a battery, there are micro airplanes flying on just a Charged capacitor, These Capacitors keep the voltage up for the receiver so it does not go into a brown out, Some Guys have also installed them on Planes with Great Success, The Capacitor does not know if its in a car or a Plane, it will do its intended job of Feeding stored current when needed, a lot of RC car guys are using large capacitors too, because some of the HD digital servos are draining a lot of current and the receiver cant keep up with the heavy load, These capacitors will work with airplanes too, but some people will argue that fact not knowing any better anything to protect your voltage to the receiver and preventing a brown out is a good thing.




This Spektrum Voltage Protector prevents a DSM receiver's voltage from dropping below the proper operating level in lower voltage applications such as 4-cell 1/12th carpet racers. Installation is as simple as plugging it into an open channel slot on the receiver unit. For DSM system. Prevents voltage drops to receiver.

http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CBQQ8wIwAA#

[CHELLIE]

The use of a UBEC IMHO is better than just using a Voltage protector, but using both of them together IMHO would be the best thing to do, Take care, Chellie