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Old 12-13-2013, 05:14 PM   #1
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Default First scratchbuild Biplane

I'm looking at building a twin engined pusher Bipe, along the lines of a Gotha G.V. , and need some advice. I've built countless experimentals of all types, and have the fuse, wings, power system already to put together. What I specifically need to know is the basics of biplane setting up. ie, dihedral, angles of incidence/attack, how much lead of top wing over lower, most efficient control surfaces etc. I'm sure i could put her together using photo's and drawings, but would prefer some experienced guidance. Thanks in advance
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Old 12-13-2013, 07:22 PM   #2
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I doubt you will get specifics ... you might get a bunch of ideas that you then average out ...

As I've said on other threads for other How to set this ... I use existing plans, designs etc. to get ideas to set up measurements ...

Whatever anyone says - majority of successful planes follow after each other - it's really only fine points and cosmetics that change the look of it.

If I want to scratchbuild a floater - I look at old-timer plans ... If I want an aerobatic biplane - I look at Pitts, Christen Eagle, Ultimate plans ... etc. etc.

The Gotha is out there as a plan .. so download it ... use that as a basis ... much better than a hamfisted bunch of various figs thrown out by all and sundry ...

Just my opinion ..

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:37 PM   #3
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I don't understand completely why they always stagger the wings on a bi plane. most ww1 bi planes had a ridiculous amounts of lift and lots of incidence. id personally build it just like you would any normal plane. plans would make it easier. one thing I like a lot about bi planes, is you can have a small wingspan making them more aerobatic and floatier then other planes of similar size

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:45 PM   #4
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Many bipes are staggered to facilitate pilot getting in and out !! The Tiger Moth even has sweep in the top wing to help even more because by then - parachutes were given to RAF pilots !!

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Old 12-14-2013, 07:18 AM   #5
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Michael, this may be useless info but here goes.
Back in the 80's I scaled up a 22 inch span single channel high winger designed by Eric Clutton called "Sharkface." The original had a diesel and that just suited my diesel addiction at the time.
I made it 38 inch span for 1.5cc motor and kept the wing incidence as in the original. It flew very well on two channel rudder and elevator and was my intermediate, second model.
As I'd actually increased the wing span in proportion to the fuselage size I also made a 34 inch span proportionally sized wing to fly with as well. The top mounted wings were standard rubber band attachments so swapping was a doddle.
One day I decided to make it into a biplane variant as well so I copied the wing seat incidence to the lower wing and cut a seat for the 34 inch wing into the lower fuselage with the leading edge set back at half the chord of the upper wing.
The whole point of this is that it flew fine and I could fly it as a high wing or a biplane by simply adding or removing the lower wing and there was no re adjustment of C of G carried out between flights either.

Barry
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:26 AM   #6
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I'm not sure which plane it was ... but a WW1 biplane had a wing removed experimentally - leaving only the top one ... it flew ... (full size this is).

It may have been what became the Sopwith Swallow ... but not sure which ...
I just remember reading an article many years ago about experimental stuff in those days.

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Old 12-14-2013, 08:43 AM   #7
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The only generality about bipes is to put the upper wing at a slight negative incidence compared to the lower. 1/2 to 2 deg difference with 1 deg being very common.

The rule for CG of a biplane is either ignore the lower wing and use 25% MAC of the upper or go by the total wing that shows in plan view ignoring the area where one wing hides the other. Then set it at 25% "MAC" of that area.

Tiger Moth (DH82) is an oddity.
DH-60 Gypsy Moth was put forth in a competition for the RAF's new trainer. RAF demanded the upper wing be moved forward for front cockpit access and that the exhaust be moved to prevent burning the pilots.
DeHaviland swept the wings to move the center of the wings forward, but keep the same CG and they flipped the engine to move the exhaust to the belly.
The result is one of the most perfect trainers ever designed. The sweep acts to greatly stabilize the aircraft and the new thrustline location made the plane have almost 0 pitch effect from throttle.
Good maneuverability plus good stability made it a plane that showed you your mistakes without killing you.

But building a scale WWI bomber (and staying reasonably scale) you can't play games with sweeping the wings or changing where the props get bolted on... Same with most of the rest of the setup. Follow the 3-view and then get the CG right.

***********

Fokker DVIII was at first look very similar to a DVII with the lower wing removed, but structure was quite different.
Very few (if any) biplanes could survive the removal of the lower wing without compromising the support of the upper wing.
Fokker Dr1 could have either the mid or lower wing removed and the upper would stay on... the struts between wings were added to please some paper pusher and could be removed and not affect the plane at all (except a small drag reduction).

**********

Parachutes were available to both sides in WWI... most fighter pilots refused to use them because taking a chute along was seen as planning to get shot down.
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Parachutes were available to both sides in WWI... most fighter pilots refused to use them because taking a chute along was seen as planning to get shot down.
in fact parachutes were only issued to spotters in balloons.... not until the closing stages of the war were pilots allowed or even considered for parachutes. the official reports said "May impair a pilots nerve".

The Tiger Moth had one trait - a vicious spin when provoked... and is the reason the anti-spin strips to rear fuselage were added to later builds. it didn't work!

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Old 12-14-2013, 08:55 AM   #9
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:00 AM   #10
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:17 AM   #11
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Neet Build, If I were to build this plane, i would go with 0-0 incidence on the bottom wing and elevator/ stabilizer assy, and slight neg incidence on the top wing, top wing and bottom wing to be even with one another, top and bottom, 25% CG from the front leading edge, slight dihedral on both wings, ailerons on both top and lower wings, ability to add down thrust on motors if needed, maiden flight will let you know Subcribed

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Old 12-14-2013, 05:04 PM   #12
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Wrong... parachutes were available for any pilot that wanted one... some even used them.

Tiger's spin had to be forced and held... pops right out if you let go of the stick.
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Wrong... parachutes were available for any pilot that wanted one... some even used them.
Not according to :

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/p...es/1914_18.htm

Just one example online supporting my statement ... care for more ?

Tiger's spin had to be forced and held... pops right out if you let go of the stick.
The Tiger Moth in original form had no anti-spin strakes but were a later addition by RAF decree ...

Here's an Air Accident Investigation Report regarding the "pops right out if you let go of the stick" fallacy ...

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...rMXAFYR63N6hAA

More ...

http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-83628.html

I will just say this -- my Father was a senior CAA (DoT) official and involved in Air Accidents up to time AIB was formed ... he retired shortly after.

He was also Ex RAF.

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Old 12-14-2013, 05:57 PM   #14
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I'd read this before stating parachutes were used and available to ALL pilots of WWI & WWII bi-planes:

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol116jm.html

Clearly, this article is based on military fact...!.....and not another web based info blog.....

Just tired of seeing posts made by certain members here (especially on very interesting and informative topics), being butchered by comments as if they had "personal experience" or "I was there when"......you know who you are......ya, the ones who (seldom if ever) support their opinions or claims with any documented facts or proof......just always starting their BS off with "wrong, no way, that's stupid"....ect.ect.ect.....!

Yes, we are all entitled to an opinion......it's just those continued members who 99% of the time, seem to have a need to be THE AUTHORITY all the time that chases me (and I'm sure other's) away....the ignore button list I use has started to fill up.....maybe it's time to for me to consider another avenue to explore....since there is only a handful of members here anymore that I regard consistantly honest, knowledgable, considerate and not about telling me just how much they think they know!

Sorry for the high-jack pattern14.......just like to see you get some advise that's not geared towards confrontation or useless debate!

AMA 928214
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Old 12-14-2013, 06:46 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
I'd read this before stating parachutes were used and available to ALL pilots of WWI & WWII bi-planes:

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol116jm.html

Clearly, this article is based on military fact...!.....and not another web based info blog.....

Just tired of seeing posts made by certain members here (especially on very interesting and informative topics), being butchered by comments as if they had "personal experience" or "I was there when"......you know who you are......ya, the ones who (seldom if ever) support their opinions or claims with any documented facts or proof......just always starting their BS off with "wrong, no way, that's stupid"....ect.ect.ect.....!

Yes, we are all entitled to an opinion......it's just those continued members who 99% of the time, seem to have a need to be THE AUTHORITY all the time that chases me (and I'm sure other's) away....the ignore button list I use has started to fill up.....maybe it's time to for me to consider another avenue to explore....since there is only a handful of members here anymore that I regard consistantly honest, knowledgable, considerate and not about telling me just how much they think they know!

Sorry for the high-jack pattern14.......just like to see you get some advise that's not geared towards confrontation or useless debate!
Lets forget the non-naming and I will ask - Are you referring to me ? In this ?

Not starting an argument .. just wish to know.

Your parachute link - seems to support mine ... so what's the point ?

Not only is it plastered across so many Historical Online and printed sources - it's also common knowledge ... not that ever prevented others refuting ...

As regards - your last comment - that gives impression you may dislike my quoting my Father ... who I am sure investigated far more aircraft incidents than you will EVER be aware of ... and I as a young guy heard the storys over the family dining table for year after year ...

Can you name the Chief Investigator for the BEA airliner that crashed in the Perpignan Mountains ? Can you name one of the lead investigators in the Comet investigations ? I can.

Nigel

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Old 12-14-2013, 09:30 PM   #16
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pizanno doesn't read his links. he just googles key words and then post the first link to pop up. even when you agree with him he has to find a technicality or flip flop his views to prove you wrong. before too long he will piss every one off and disappear.

going back to the original topic.

I would build it the same as any other plane. id personally set both top and bottom wing incidence to be.the same, but I haven't played around with them enough to be considered an authority .on my slow stick bipe the cg is supposed to be almost 1/2 way between the standard cg of both wings.

slow stock prop reversal. it flies! easily! 543 watt dual motor bipe slow stick. push-me-pull-you. 242 watt 3 channel slow stick. 365 watt mini ultra stick. 415 watt mini contender. 810 watt ultra stick .25e. 220 watt alpha 450 sport (retired).
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:55 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
pizanno doesn't read his links. he just googles key words and then post the first link to pop up. even when you agree with him he has to find a technicality or flip flop his views to prove you wrong. before too long he will piss every one off and disappear.

going back to the original topic.

I would build it the same as any other plane. id personally set both top and bottom wing incidence to be.the same, but I haven't played around with them enough to be considered an authority .on my slow stick bipe the cg is supposed to be almost 1/2 way between the standard cg of both wings.
I was out of line and should not have posted as I did .. I will leave as is

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Old 12-15-2013, 10:48 PM   #18
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Default Parachutes????

Just got back to this thread after finishing nightshift; looks like I missed all the fun about parachutes, but it was still interesting to read about it. Thanks everyone for chiming in with their advice and comments.

To be more specific, the choice of the Gotha has to do with the 1914/2014 centenary re-enactment taking place next year. If anyone remembers, I built a "disposable " Dornier Do17, for an aerial display last year, which overflew a re-enactment of an Australian battalion in Greece during WW2. I fitted a bomb drop and a smoke device, and was duly "shot down" by my sons ' Spitfire, while the 40mm Bofors' blazed away at all and sundry. The crowd loved it

The Military historical society asked if I could do the same with a WW1 theme, so hence the Gotha. The German planes make the classic bad guys in these sort of events, and the ANZAC spirit was born during the first world war, so I thought I'd oblige.

I'm looking at an all EPP and coreflute build ( I will have to crash it in a smoking heap after all), complete once again with bomb drop and the mandatory smoke pouring out of the engines. It does not look too difficult a plane to make a passable classic WW1 bomber, and the pusher props are something I have had a lot to do with. Like the old motto says, build it to crash, not fly......next is to find a suitable British bipe to down the Hun over the trenches. I'm hoping to start on it early next year, and have already started assembling the pieces. More later , cheers
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:12 AM   #19
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I'm planning a new pusher puller bipe using a twin boom and trike gear, with coroplast wings and tail.

id be.very interested in seeing your progress

slow stock prop reversal. it flies! easily! 543 watt dual motor bipe slow stick. push-me-pull-you. 242 watt 3 channel slow stick. 365 watt mini ultra stick. 415 watt mini contender. 810 watt ultra stick .25e. 220 watt alpha 450 sport (retired).
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
I'm planning a new pusher puller bipe using a twin boom and trike gear, with coroplast wings and tail.

id be.very interested in seeing your progress
That sounds like a unique project there; does the pusher/puller system work in tandem ie prop at the front and back like the Dornier Do335? Do you have any pics or drawings?
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:47 AM   #21
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I haven't actually drawn it up yet. it is an evolution of my current slow stick bipe.




where the motors are mounted so high, it makes it difficult to control the plane under throttle. right now I am planning to get rid of some of the flex from the fuse, hence the twin boom configuration and I want trike gear for good ground handling and touch and goes. biggest problem I've had with trike gear on a stick is prop clearance on the nose wheel and flex in the fuse.

so I will build it up with a center section for battery and nose gear along with possibly a camera mount, then the landing gear can be attached wherever I want further down the fuse. the extra width also makes the plane less prone to tipping over and dragging a wing. I also want to mount the motors in the center of the two wings, which will help with the pitch down under throttle.

as the bipe sits right now, it weighs 54.75 oz and with the 450 and 480 motors pulls 49 amps and about 550 watts on 3 cells and 11/8 counter rotating props. it should have over 6lbs of thrust.

slow stock prop reversal. it flies! easily! 543 watt dual motor bipe slow stick. push-me-pull-you. 242 watt 3 channel slow stick. 365 watt mini ultra stick. 415 watt mini contender. 810 watt ultra stick .25e. 220 watt alpha 450 sport (retired).
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:42 PM   #22
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Default Parachutes as used in WWI

Greetings,

Had to weigh in on the parachute discussion as I am just finishing a book entitled, Fighting the Flying Circus by Captain Edward V. Rickenbacker copyright 1919.
In chapter 23, "Back Close to Verdun" Rickenbacker has just learned of the high altitude collision of two of his pilots and their resulting deaths. On page 228, beginning with the second paragraph, he has this to say and I quote;

"The fighters on the front can never understand why the authorities back home deny them necessary arms and ammunition. We air-fighters cannot understand why we cannot have parachutes fitted on our aeroplanes to give the doomed pilot one possible means of escape from this terrible death."

He finishes this paragraph with mention of the pilots acceptance of death as a result of battle with an enemy, but believes that a pilot should have a means to escape a crippled aircraft. He goes on to state how the German pilots have been using parachutes during the last six months of the war,and of course balloon observers, thus why shouldn't the allies?

There are often a multitude of reasons to explain human actions or inactions as may well be the case with this subject. Much study / research could be made of this subject as well as commentary on Rickenbacker's words.
Happy New Year to all and soft landings.

GEB
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Old 02-23-2014, 03:07 PM   #23
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Did you ever get to building your "Gotha"?

A few years ago I did up a twin Bipe based on British bombers. I designed it as I built it from stuff I had in the workshop, fun weekend project. Flew it for a year before I used the gear for another project.

WS 48in with a slight stagger.
wings had no Dihedral (wanted good roll abilities)
Top wing 0deg
bottom wing +1deg
Tail 0deg
motors, think final was about 1deg down thrust



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Old 02-25-2014, 09:12 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by yorcram View Post
Did you ever get to building your "Gotha"?

A few years ago I did up a twin Bipe based on British bombers. I designed it as I built it from stuff I had in the workshop, fun weekend project. Flew it for a year before I used the gear for another project.

WS 48in with a slight stagger.
wings had no Dihedral (wanted good roll abilities)
Top wing 0deg
bottom wing +1deg
Tail 0deg
motors, think final was about 1deg down thrust


Nice job there. Well done. There has been so much happening family and work wise that my hobby interests are very much relegated to the back burner. I'm still keen to build this plane, but probably won't start for a while yet ( months at least). Then again, I may suddenly decide to sit up all night and build a prototype It does not need finishing until October, when the WW1 re-enactment is planned, but it would be nice to get it flying sooner. Watch this space
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