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Old 02-25-2014, 05:54 PM   #1
solentlife
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Default $100 Contest entry : Twin Pusher "Sport Scale" TU-144 Concordski ?

Ok ... all know my success with the twin EDF sport-scale Concorde. I mentioned before that I consider building a twin pusher - which should have more scale-like nacelles and more power to really fly ... The twin EDF actually flies better than I expected after finding the Mad Thrust EDF's to be rubbish.

I propose same size airframe ... 1200mm LOA, 650mm span with :


Floater-Jet Replacement Motor (AXN-2208-2150)





Floater-Jet Replacement Motor (AXN-2208-2150)

Specs.
RPM/V: 2150kv
Max Watts: 180w
Max Amps: 20A
Max Volts: 11.1 (3s)
Turns: 16t
Resistance: 0.085Rm
Magnet type: N45SH
Idle Current: 1.52A
Shaft: 3mm
Weight: 44.0g
Suggested Prop: 5x5 / 6x4




2 of those pushing it with 5x5 props. Lighter than the EDF's ... I can move batterys back or run of a larger single 3S. Amp draw on a 5x5 is reckoned at 17 - 19A each.
Or I can butcher my twin parkjet for the more powerful 3200kv Heli motors ... needing serious twin battery power then ... and serious ESC's.... amp draw here is more like 45A each ... on 4S but HUGE power output on a 4.1x4.1 prop. One on it's own pushes my 50mm T45 to over 180KPH in pusher mod form.

So the question is :

Do I push the design to limits with power or build a reasonable flyer with less power ?

Nigel

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Old 03-04-2014, 11:36 AM   #2
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The other question is the fuselage profile.... initially as the square in the EDF version looks ok in the air, I considered that again. but am now starting to think rounded more scale like may be better. Because of the sheer length - I wonder if an already available round tube can be used? Cutting in half lengthwise to get a rounded section to glue onto slab sides.

Flat plate wing again. ......

Nigel

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Old 03-04-2014, 02:25 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
The other question is the fuselage profile.... initially as the square in the EDF version looks ok in the air, I considered that again. but am now starting to think rounded more scale like may be better. Because of the sheer length - I wonder if an already available round tube can be used? Cutting in half lengthwise to get a rounded section to glue onto slab sides.

Flat plate wing again. ......

Nigel
Great project there. The pusher prop version will no doubt eat the EDF one for breakfast Then again, a pusher set up is usually lighter and more efficient anyway, so you could get the same performance but in an airframe half the weight. It would make a nice floater or parkflyer. It's only a thought, but as far as rounded fuse goes, have you considered using the foam "noodles" that are sold for use in swimming pools? They are used by swimming instuctors and for recreational fun use as well. About 4-5 foot long, quite cheap, completely round, and easy to cut. They would be ideal for the shape of the Concord fuse. You would need to stiffen it of course with CF or some sort of spar system, and I just bought a couple myself for $2.00 AUD each to experiment with. The foam is pretty durable as well. Good luck with this one
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:36 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
Great project there. The pusher prop version will no doubt eat the EDF one for breakfast Then again, a pusher set up is usually lighter and more efficient anyway, so you could get the same performance but in an airframe half the weight. It would make a nice floater or parkflyer. It's only a thought, but as far as rounded fuse goes, have you considered using the foam "noodles" that are sold for use in swimming pools? They are used by swimming instuctors and for recreational fun use as well. About 4-5 foot long, quite cheap, completely round, and easy to cut. They would be ideal for the shape of the Concord fuse. You would need to stiffen it of course with CF or some sort of spar system, and I just bought a couple myself for $2.00 AUD each to experiment with. The foam is pretty durable as well. Good luck with this one
Pipe Insulation is considered with thin 3mm Depron or card applied over to harden up for colour scheme. But then again ... if I am going to do that - I might as well get out the rolling pin and roll out 6mm Depron to the curve form over formers.
The fuselage sides would with formers be 6mm standard Depron.

I'm hoping that the wing will not require double thickness as with EDF's as the pusher set-ups are lighter. BBQ rods should be enough to stiffen the wing.

One point that I note from others work with Concorde's and Pusher props ...
The rotation angle at take-off and landing means props are extremely vulnerable ... so I will have to mount shaft line as near as possible to wing line TE level as possible ... even if it means the motor can extends above slightly.

If I build to same as my EDF version - I'm hoping to shave of weight. If I use my Twin Parkjet power set-up - it should be capable of extreme speed ... BUILD weight saving will then allow me increase the battery pack size to cater for such power level ... 0ver 1KW ...
I'm hoping that I might be able to push her to 150 or even 180kph ...

Nigel

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Old 03-04-2014, 08:45 PM   #5
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Subscribed and listening.....and BTW Nigel, very nice project on your twin. Was very happy to see you got it dialed in and flying nicely.....nice job...
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:19 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by DEG View Post
Subscribed and listening.....and BTW Nigel, very nice project on your twin. Was very happy to see you got it dialed in and flying nicely.....nice job...
My thanks to you for drafting up the plans and mods for me ... I'm just glad I have flown her and proved your work ...

Maybe you fancy drafting up the original plans to similar dimensions ? 1200mm long and 650mm span ? But this time with nacelles at correct size for holding a 28xx high KV motor ...

Cheers
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:56 PM   #7
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Solentlife
As you have identified with a long slender delta the pusher prop strike problem is very real.
Either you have to adopt a taller under carriage than even the full size had or else simply limit the take off rotation to protect the prop by using a long tail bumper wheel. This may not be so much of an issue as with more thrust and less weight the pusher will not need such a severe 'rotation' to take off.

Raising the motor line to above the wing will certainly work but is not a very 'elegant' solution given that even a scale jet duct is plenty large enough to fully accommodate a motor.

Interesting to see what you end up doing.

In some respects EDFs do have advantages for a typical jet plane layout!
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:17 PM   #8
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There is of course another solution that in fact has advantages ...

Prop in Slot ! No I haven't lost my 'marbles' ....

Give it thought before condemning ....

Imagine motors mounted at FRONT of nacelles and props operating through slots in wing either side.

You get :

1) Props that are basically never going to hit deck on any rotation.

2) Prop wash over surfaces increasing authority at slow speed.

3) Motors are set BELOW wing and also better balance.

It's just a thought ... I'm still primarily looking at twin pusher at back end ... high KV on props up to 5x5 ... but likely 4.1 x 4.1 or 4.5

This matter of rotation is not only when she is about to leave ground ! Watch the vid's of my Twin EDF and you watch that nose bouncing along ... The model being so long and slender, it bounces at slightest bump or excuse ....
Leg height - the real one looks like it's on Stilts anyway - so a small increase won't go amiss.

I'm itching to get this started ! There always was the thought in back opf mind... that if the EDF version didn't work out - I'd rip out the EDF's, reduce nacelles back and install pusher props. But of course she's proven herself as a good flyer !

Nigel

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Old 03-05-2014, 03:26 PM   #9
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Prop in slot does give better performance than an EDF.. at the cost of some "appearance points"
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Prop in slot does give better performance than an EDF.. at the cost of some "appearance points"
Not so much the vs EDF ... but to reduce the prop strike matter. The props will then be near U/C main legs with very little effect on gap to ground when she rotates.

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Old 03-06-2014, 01:27 AM   #11
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Nigel,

Be happy to help with some drafting if you need some lines drawn....
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by DEG View Post
Nigel,

Be happy to help with some drafting if you need some lines drawn....
OK ... that would be great ....

Attached here is the 3 view I have of the real machine ... the point being that it shows the ratio of nacelle size to wing and the fuselage oblate roundness.... both of which I want to re-create in the model adjusted to my 1200 x 650mm proven LOA vs Span format.

I don't think there's any need to create former templates - as the taper is quite simple from full to needle nose etc. I can use the 3-views end on for the former.

I also note that the wing is set up into fuselage more than the pusher plan I had for the EDF version.... supporting your suggested set-in of wing I used.

Plans needed ? Full single sheet plan for overall look and a tiled A4 plan for Length 1200mm x Span 650mm size. I suggest modification of the existing EDF plan used to create this ?
There's no need for wing curves in it's chord ... we go the flat plate as before. One modification I made was to make it double thick .. 12mm instead of 6mm ... I think this time we can go 6 + 3mm ... 9mm thick to give stiffness and depth for motor leads / bamboo rods etc.

Cheers
Nigel


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File Type: pdf Concorde 3V A0 sized.pdf (184.8 KB, 26 views)

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Old 03-06-2014, 11:38 AM   #13
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Nigel,

Did a little this morning. Using the three view you posted earlier this AM for comparisons.

Attached PDF shows three choices for the major section of the fuse, keeping to the original 1200mm fuse length. Sections are for the outside of the skin. Hope these make sense. This PDF is scaled to fit paper (A4), full size will be on finished plan.

Also did a PDF of wing comparison but having trouble uploading that....will try in a separate post.

Don


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Old 03-06-2014, 11:56 AM   #14
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Hi DEG ....

I was at first little confused - but then realised that of course our modifications before created two aspect changes ...

mmmmmm interesting ..... what to do !

I'm inclined to go for the larger 'B' former - but the 'A' is more true. It's a question as most find with Concorde construction - it is long, thin and needs a lot of support while putting together.

Just got your email ... OK ... I just have to watch the MB's as I'm travelling and if I download files - my phone bill goes nuts !!

Send to my email

Cheers
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:06 PM   #15
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Nigel,

B would allow for the most room for equipment. That would be my choice also. For now let's settle on "B" if that's OK...

I was also concerned about assembly problems and keeping everything straight and true during the build. One thought was to make a ply keel-like jig that would be removable after all sheeting was done except for maybe 6mm or so where/when the jig is removed. I'm sure others will chime in with more ideas on this. We probably should also show some internal structure...i.e. number and/or spacing of bulkheads, suggested equipment size and placement, etc... Let's make this a full plan. Being retired, I have the time if you've got the patience to answer nit picky questions from me.....

The other PDF was just a visual comparison of the two wings....the three view wing when the fuse length is scaled to 1200mm and the actual wing we designed for your EDF. I just didn't realize the size difference in the two. If my math is correct we've got roughly 25% more wing area than a true scale model. Not that that is bad, just that's what it is. Nacelles can and IMO should be scaled to the 650 wing. I believe that's what you were after.

Really no need to post that wing comparison PDF or to email it. It was just sort of a visual reference.

Don
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:26 PM   #16
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The twin EDF model showed that the increased wing worked without destroying the illusion of Concorde in air.

I went for it based on wanting a model that can fly slow as well as blistering fast. The wing being flat plate IMHO needs every advantage we can give it.

Nacelles ... only dimension mod there I would go for is width - not depth. Depth can be as per scale with width increased to match ratio increase of wing span.

Fuselage formers .... now that's a difficult one as I added / removed / modified the EDF ones every time I changed CoG etc. I cut away fuselage top more times than I care to think about to arrive at final ...
This model I am considering battery hatch etc. in BOTTOM of model so I can keep fuselage above wing structure as one !

My initial thoughts are to create a vertical foam spine which formers are then added to in halves ... then all planked with curved Depron.
Wing seat then hot-wire cut from the 'tube' ...

I have excellent hinged battery boxes from Skyartec ... that can be installed where needed.

Lipo's ? I might end up with one large one or split to two end on to each other lengthways in fuselage instead of side by side.

It's all thoughts at moment ... and lets be honest - when it comes to the build - many ideas will be scrapped, modified or ignored !

We went through a lot of ideas / development before the EDF version rolled out ... and look at the success we had !

Nigel

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Old 03-06-2014, 03:33 PM   #17
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Solentlife
The only other thing about a prop in slot is they are really noisy! Not the whine of an EDF but like a siren - which technically is what it is!
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:50 PM   #18
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Nigel,

Here's the first take on the nacelles just to open the discussion on same. The width shown is proportionate to the 650mm wing, however the depth needed to be increased a bit to accommodate the motor and motor mount. The motor I show is found here:

http://www.headsuphobby.com/Firepowe...otor-G-545.htm

If you have a motor that fits better, I can easily incorporated it.

I do realize that a lot of things we show get changed as the build goes forward....that's just the nature of scratch building....


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Old 03-06-2014, 04:14 PM   #19
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The motors earmarked for this are :

2623 3200kv .... which are at present installed on my Twin parkjet ...



or these ...

2623 3000 Turnigy




So no real problem of depth in nacelles ..

Nigel

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Old 03-06-2014, 06:23 PM   #20
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Nigel,

Two more to look at....

I adjusted the nacelle height as much as I think feasible for the 2623. Took the measurements off HK site so hoping they're correct. We gained or rather lost about 2.5mm in height. Anyway we now have two choices for the nacelles.

Also I took Section "B", added interior lines to reflect the actual bulkhead size and also your vertical spline. Outside shell shown is 6mm depron. Width, at this point, to remain the same as first PDF.


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File Type: pdf NACELLE-02.pdf (23.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: pdf FuseSectionB.pdf (22.2 KB, 14 views)
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:20 PM   #21
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Looking good ....

I am having thoughts of using wood stringers to stiffen fuselage length ... possibly one each side and one along top ...

Anyway - its gone 0200 am here and I've just got of phone with Russian Oil interests ... must get sleep !! Busy day tomorrow !!

Nigel

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Old 03-07-2014, 05:38 PM   #22
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A little more detail to keep the conversation going...

Battery shown is just a typical 1800 so this may change a bit.

This plate should print out on A4 to scale. Please check the two dimensions and let me know.


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Old 03-07-2014, 07:15 PM   #23
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Ok ... interesting ...

Main thing though DEG .. the battery and gear can all be sorted later ... having moved the gear in the EDF version 4x .. I realise I will probably be playing again with the alterations here.

Main point is to get the overall airframe sorted. Internals are later.

FYI - just started a 150,000 ton oil ship here in China ... 2 days work on board and then 2 days ashore. Possibly another 1 or 2 ships after before I get home ...

Then I may have to visit an office - I've been Headhunted for a new team !

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Old 03-07-2014, 09:09 PM   #24
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Nigel,

Wasn't intended for the exact location of the battery longitudinally. As you mentioned before you'd like to have the battery accessed from below. With either of those arrangements of stringers the battery could be fit anywhere in the belly of the beast and be accessed from below. Exact longitudinal location will be at the whim of the builder and depends on the equipment used.

One thing I wasn't sure of is if 5mm sq. stringers are readily available over there? Over here I'd call out a 3/16" sq. hard balsa/spruce for the stringers.

Also what would your recommendation on the spacing of bulkheads be?

Fuse plan comes next. It'll be the original plan we had adjusted to fit Section "B"....

Have a good one....

Don
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:09 AM   #25
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Hi DEG ...

Stringers are no problem as I have a bench circular table saw and I can strip any size I like. This is good as I can buy wood from local DIY and select best without knots and defects.

It has crossed my mind whether to actually Hot-Wire cut the main length of fuselage and just hollow out where gear is to go ... ends to be in depron construction. This Hot-Wire cut fuz to have the stringers set into the foam. Could save a lot of fiddling about keeping formers straight and aligned !
But at moment let's stick with sheet on formers construction ... and decide later.

The Skyartec battery box has an interesting form ... it also has a section that accepts U/C wire legs ... and I'm thinking that if I can set the battery box and legs at similar position, this can really help to reduce the amount of wood plate for U/C fixing. More on that later ...

One of my flying pals has been prodding me to fit retracts, saying that 'wheels down isn't right'.....
Funny actually ... as the only time most of us ever saw Concorde in reality - she was wheels down taking off or landing ...
The spindly form that I fitted to the EDF version - in fact are not that obvious in flight ...

Lot of ideas in my mind at moment !

Cheers
Nigel

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