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RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros Discussion all about rc radios, transmitters, receivers, servos, etc.

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View Poll Results: Pleasse answer the following, if your set-up is not listed - please post in thread.
Do you use the designed 9xr 1.5C 2100 3S LiPo ? 2 100.00%
Do you use a general use 3S LiPo not the 9xr specific one ? 1 50.00%
Do you charge your LiPo via the case charging socket ? 0 0%
Do you charge outside the case via the JST without balance ? 0 0%
Do you charge via JST with balance lead to charger as well ? 2 100.00%
Do you charge via Balance lead only succh as with budget RTF charger ? 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-22-2014, 08:32 AM   #1
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Default 9xr purpose designed LiPo or not ?

This thread is started to try and find out who uses or not - the Turnigy purpose designed LiPo for the 9xsr Radio.

It is a 1.5C 2100 3S protected circuit LiPo specially designed to fit the 9xr Tx.

What I would like to know is why you use it or why you do not use it, Are there any specific reasons you do or do not ?

Second - what charging regime do you use ? Do you remove from Tx case and balance charge ? Do you charge via the JST lead without balance ?

What do you understand is the real purpose of the Protection circuits ?

This is not a debate of LiPo vs NiMH ..that's done to death and anyway - the 9xr is designed for LiPo ... it also is not a debate about the 2s vs 3s and regulators. It is more about the 9xr 3S LiPo pack itself ...

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Old 06-06-2014, 06:14 PM   #2
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No-one answering ? Despite all the 9xr's out there ??

Amazing.

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Old 06-06-2014, 07:35 PM   #3
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Based on the last Transmitter survey......which only showed less than a handfull of Turnigy 9x users here at Wattflyer......this poll will be most likely void of any rational statistics related to the type of questions the OP has specifically outlined.

The poll may be better served by first targeting only the actual 9x owners here, reducing the number of questions to less complex requests (stick to one theme) and comparing those responses to another, larger Turnigy 9x segment based forum......

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Old 06-06-2014, 09:40 PM   #4
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The subject is 9xr ... not 9x....

How many total users is not the point - the point is how many use a type of battery pack and charge ?

It is apparent that many users are not coming fwd now .. not only here but other forums as well ...

Nigel

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Old 06-07-2014, 01:09 AM   #5
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Excuse me....9xr.

Now that reduces the amount of feedback here even more......

Here's a couple of links that give a few battery details:

http://forum.turnigy9xr.com/9xr-battery-update-t59.html

http://aircraft-modeling.com/content...d-turnigy-9xr/

Oh I'm sure Nigel has critiqued those as well.....

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Old 06-07-2014, 04:59 AM   #6
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I use a 3s, 1800mAH LIFE battery and remove it from the radio to charge.

The 9XR has a special battery available with built it overcharge protection so you can charge it in the radio. Theoretically, it's safe.

You can use any 3S lipo but charging it outside the radio with a proper balancing charger is safest.

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Old 06-07-2014, 07:09 AM   #7
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I posted the poll as I wanted to find out if I was different to others ...

I have the 9xr designed pack for one radio and a normal 3S 2100 pack for my other ...

I do not use the built-in charge port on the radios as I am concerned about a 2 wire charge port to a LiPo .. without balance.

If the 9xr designed LiPo is for charging via the Tx case port - then it flies in the face of all LiPo advice ...

So I wanted others opinions and is why the poll has specific options.

At present - I charge my 9xr LiPo's separate from Tx and use both the JST and balance leads to ensure good balanced charge. When my B6's are in use for flight packs - I have two budget RTF chargers that only use the balance leads at low rate ... so they get used for the Tx packs.

But it all seems a bit of a pain .. to have to extract the pack each time to charge ... someone 'cocked-up' there I reckon !!

If anyone knows the real truth of the charge port ... then please put me out of my misery !!

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Old 06-07-2014, 07:29 AM   #8
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In various forums and posts .. some say you can charge the 9xr LiPo via the case port ... others say that the diode in the radio will interfere with any smart charger connected there ...

Some say yes - use it ... others say do not use it ...

Maybe it's a good case for going back to a standard NiMH pack and forget all this ... a) no battery cut-off ... b) charge via socket .... c) no worries.

A 2100 pack will give about 9 - 10hrs Tx use total ......... so what to do ?

The fact of battery cut-off still irks me - I'm still 50-50 on that ... I can see the arguments against it .. I can see for it ... but actually cannot see why anyone really thought it necessary to implement it. Over charge protection yes ... but would have been better if balance protection was done so standard 2 wire charge could have been implemented via the charge socket.

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Old 06-07-2014, 02:52 PM   #9
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I have the purpose made 9xr lipo in my TX and remove it to balance charge using the balamnce plug and the jst plug. It is no hassle to do so as others have complained about.
I need to charge it so infrequently that it really is not an issue. When I'm at the field I'll always have some 3s packs with me and if for whatever reason my volts drop in the TX pack I can always swap in one of the other packs.

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Old 06-07-2014, 03:40 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Wrongway-Feldman View Post
I have the purpose made 9xr lipo in my TX and remove it to balance charge using the balamnce plug and the jst plug. It is no hassle to do so as others have complained about.
I need to charge it so infrequently that it really is not an issue. When I'm at the field I'll always have some 3s packs with me and if for whatever reason my volts drop in the TX pack I can always swap in one of the other packs.
Same as one of my 9xr's ... has the purpose designed 9xr LiPo in ...

The other has an older non-flight 3S pack in .. basically one that will not fly my 450 heli anymore but can fly my ASK21 glider ... discharge tests show that low amp discharge is fine on it but high amp discharge it cannot sustain.

What worries me is this 'if for whatever reason my volts drop in the TX pack I can always swap in one of the other packs' ..... especially with the 9xr LiPo .... I was against the fear-mongerers who all decry the protection circuits in them - particularly the over-discharge bit where the pack cuts of at 3.0v. But the more I consider it - the more I realise they just might have a point. Once I get back home - I am going to run a test of the two 9xr's side by side and see which one shuts off first and what warning I get.

I reckon I am like most others - I never look at the display when flying ... and I often do not hear the beep of any alarm such as timer etc. as I'm concentrating on flying ... my high-speed stuff ... EDF's and wet-fuel stuff are quite loud ... so a cut-off may just be what I do not need.

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Old 06-07-2014, 04:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Same as one of my 9xr's ... has the purpose designed 9xr LiPo in ...

The other has an older non-flight 3S pack in .. basically one that will not fly my 450 heli anymore but can fly my ASK21 glider ... discharge tests show that low amp discharge is fine on it but high amp discharge it cannot sustain.

What worries me is this 'if for whatever reason my volts drop in the TX pack I can always swap in one of the other packs' ..... especially with the 9xr LiPo .... I was against the fear-mongerers who all decry the protection circuits in them - particularly the over-discharge bit where the pack cuts of at 3.0v. But the more I consider it - the more I realise they just might have a point. Once I get back home - I am going to run a test of the two 9xr's side by side and see which one shuts off first and what warning I get.

I reckon I am like most others - I never look at the display when flying ... and I often do not hear the beep of any alarm such as timer etc. as I'm concentrating on flying ... my high-speed stuff ... EDF's and wet-fuel stuff are quite loud ... so a cut-off may just be what I do not need.

Nigel
I take some of the fear mongering with a grain of salt. Much of what people are saying about voltage drops make logical sense but not critical sense.
Logically you could drop voltage too low and cause a shutdown. Critically the chances of that happening are pretty low unless you completely ignore every warning and indicator on the TX.
I would be worried about it if the TX drew the same amps as a motor, but it doesn't.
It draws a very low amperage. For the flight times of the average electric plane out there you can start flying on a marginal transmitter battery charge and still get a full flight before that charge becomes a problem.
These are no longer the days of nicads where the cells would sustain voltage till nearly exhausted and then suddenly drop to nothing.
These TX lipos are actually the worst grade lipos available. They would fail badly if ever put under a real load. But because the amp draw is so low on a TX they work just fine for that purpose.
This is nothing new and is done by a verriety of manufacturers for many many years. Due to that they are worthless to manufacturers and in the past would have been scrapped, they now they market them as " transmitter packs", toss on some cheap circuitry they say is needed, and sell them for much more than their true value.
I have once forgot my TX pack at home and flew the entire day on an extra flight pack. If the TX pack ever fails I won't be replacing it, I'll just start using some older bench use only packs.

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Old 06-07-2014, 05:03 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Wrongway-Feldman View Post
I take some of the fear mongering with a grain of salt. Much of what people are saying about voltage drops make logical sense but not critical sense.
Agreed ... much of the fear-mongering that goes on - I abhor in fact.

Logically you could drop voltage too low and cause a shutdown. Critically the chances of that happening are pretty low unless you completely ignore every warning and indicator on the TX.
It's not dragging the voltage low by voltage sag - it's running the LIPo down over time .. how many times do we read about someone who is using LiPo in their Tx and ... "Holy Moly - I now don't have to worry about charging it - it's good for months ... ". How stupid can people be ? mAh is mAh whatever the form. If you use 250mA per hour out of a pack .. a 2500mAh pack will last 10 hrs .. less whatever safety charge of course ... regardless of whether it's LiPo .. LiFE ... NiXX etc.

I would be worried about it if the TX drew the same amps as a motor, but it doesn't.
It draws a very low amperage.
Average Tx draws from 180 up to 280 mA ... depending on backlights and additions. The 9x range sits about the 230mA as I tested.

For the flight times of the average electric plane out there you can start flying on a marginal transmitter battery charge and still get a full flight before that charge becomes a problem.
and ?

These are no longer the days of nicads where the cells would sustain voltage till nearly exhausted and then suddenly drop to nothing.
In fact NiXX are better in one respect - they can be taken much lower in charge state before switching of ... figures of 90% usage capability are common .. so in fact you can use MORE of the capacity of a NiXX than a LiPo.

These TX lipos are actually the worst grade lipos available. They would fail badly if ever put under a real load. But because the amp draw is so low on a TX they work just fine for that purpose.
This is nothing new and is done by a verriety of manufacturers for many many years. Due to that they are worthless to manufacturers and in the past would have been scrapped, they now they market them as " transmitter packs", toss on some cheap circuitry they say is needed, and sell them for much more than their true value.
I have once forgot my TX pack at home and flew the entire day on an extra flight pack. If the TX pack ever fails I won't be replacing it, I'll just start using some older bench use only packs.
I have info that ALL LiPo packs are supposed to be based on matched cells. But only high-end packs actually have their cells matched to give best balanced performance. From high-end lines - the cells not suitable can be passed on to 3rd party assemblers into lesser packs or as you say - such as Tx packs. The common result is high C rate cells being downgraded in C rating to cover their poor testing.

I agree that due to the low discharge rates needed - old flight packs are ideal candidates for Tx packs. I have 5 on my bench that are excellent Tx pack material ...

My main concern which is becoming more convincing to me the more I think about it :

The 9xr pack has a sudden set shut off value. There's no user settable value here. It's 3.0V per cell or actually 9V total. If one cell fails, or if the total in any way does not meet 9+ volts - the Tx shuts off .. no question. Not because the Tx does it - it's the battery pack that does it.
Now if we take a normal 3S pack and we put it in ... it will keep providing V all the way to zero ... and that time past 9V may just be enough to save your model while the Tx alarm is beeping at you.

I'm not fear-mongering .......... just considering possibilities. A failed cell is not impossible. A failed cell on the 9xr pack is fatal. But on a normal 3S pack is survivable.

Do you not agree that last point ?

Nigel

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Old 06-09-2014, 01:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Agreed ... much of the fear-mongering that goes on - I abhor in fact.



It's not dragging the voltage low by voltage sag - it's running the LIPo down over time .. how many times do we read about someone who is using LiPo in their Tx and ... "Holy Moly - I now don't have to worry about charging it - it's good for months ... ". How stupid can people be ? mAh is mAh whatever the form. If you use 250mA per hour out of a pack .. a 2500mAh pack will last 10 hrs .. less whatever safety charge of course ... regardless of whether it's LiPo .. LiFE ... NiXX etc.



Average Tx draws from 180 up to 280 mA ... depending on backlights and additions. The 9x range sits about the 230mA as I tested.



and ?



In fact NiXX are better in one respect - they can be taken much lower in charge state before switching of ... figures of 90% usage capability are common .. so in fact you can use MORE of the capacity of a NiXX than a LiPo.



I have info that ALL LiPo packs are supposed to be based on matched cells. But only high-end packs actually have their cells matched to give best balanced performance. From high-end lines - the cells not suitable can be passed on to 3rd party assemblers into lesser packs or as you say - such as Tx packs. The common result is high C rate cells being downgraded in C rating to cover their poor testing.

I agree that due to the low discharge rates needed - old flight packs are ideal candidates for Tx packs. I have 5 on my bench that are excellent Tx pack material ...

My main concern which is becoming more convincing to me the more I think about it :

The 9xr pack has a sudden set shut off value. There's no user settable value here. It's 3.0V per cell or actually 9V total. If one cell fails, or if the total in any way does not meet 9+ volts - the Tx shuts off .. no question. Not because the Tx does it - it's the battery pack that does it.
Now if we take a normal 3S pack and we put it in ... it will keep providing V all the way to zero ... and that time past 9V may just be enough to save your model while the Tx alarm is beeping at you.

I'm not fear-mongering .......... just considering possibilities. A failed cell is not impossible. A failed cell on the 9xr pack is fatal. But on a normal 3S pack is survivable.

Do you not agree that last point ?

Nigel
I agree with your last point completely but as far as low quality lipo packs being rated as such because of unmatched cells I have to disagree.
Lower quality packs most of the time are just that, lower quality. Poor manufacturing controls can lead to cells of poor consistency. Even the best manufacturing conditions can lead to variences in the compounds produced. This leads to cells that can a wide variation in internal resistance. The cells with higher resistance are sold with a lower C rating as the better cells get sold as a higher C rating.
This was a common practice in the 90's with computer CPU's. Intel would design a chip to run at a specific speed. Those that passed the test would be marketed as that speed. Those that failed would get retested at progressively lower speeds till it would run stable. Those chips would be marketed as a cheaper, slower chip.

That aside, it still comes down to offsetting risk. No matter what batteries you use in your TX there are pluses and minisus.

Unfortunately for me that choice is no longer mine as my 9xr released magic smoke this morning. Naturally this is the first day of my vacation so I needed to replace it quickly and did not have the luxury of ordering anything online. Ended up driving into town and picking up a dx8.

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Old 06-08-2014, 02:37 AM   #14
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What you get with the special HK battery is the ability to charge with the pack in the radio. You know that that is not the best practice for any number of reasons. Best practice would be to balance charge a lipo outside the radio. Lipo fires are becoming very rare but still can happen and if it does your radio at least won't burn. The protection circuit saves the battery at the potential cost of a plane. (Though I think this is very unlikely. I think you'll know if the TX pack is dying.)

So the question is; Is the benefit of charging the battery in the radio worth the risks of charging a lipo in the TX and using the circuit protected pack. Lots of people use this set up and have no problem so the risks are probably small.

I use a LIFE battery in my 9X and balance charge it outside the TX (maybe 3-4 times a season). I use Nimh batteries in my Taranis and charge them with the internal circuit is the radio every 3-4 flying sessions even though I've only used a quarter of it's capacity because it IS convenient.

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Old 06-08-2014, 06:58 AM   #15
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This you see is confusing ...

The HK pack is stated as having overcharge and over-discharge protection. Nothing about balancing or general use.

I cannot find any HK / Hextronic statement that says it can be charged in situ via the case socket.

Only thing I can find is on the 9xr forum where a guy says the installed diode on the board will interfere with any smart charger trying to charge it.

What it really needs is Hextronic to come out with specific info on this and clear up the discussion once and for all.

I use NiMH in my 9x's ... good reason - no problems or questions about voltage levels ... no problems about charging via the case socket ... plenty of RC Tx / Rx chargers out there ideal for the job. I use 50mA Futaba M chargers for my 9x's ... plug and forget basically.
Like Pmullen - I very rarely use significant amount of my packs ... I have 2300mAh AA's in mine. But I know they are charged up and ready to give me a weekends use without fault.
Plus - I can buy replacement single AA's over local shop counter.

I have one 9xr designed LiPo ... and I think that will be the last one I buy. From now on - it's normal 3S LiPo's ... I'm increasingly wary of this low voltage cut-off. Doubly so if using the charge socket on the radio. It has no cell detection at all ... just total voltage charge. If a cell repeatedly tries to go over the 4.2 ... and the circuitry keeps it back .. surely that indicates the pack is suspect ? At least with a normal pack - a Wattmeter or even the charger itself will show unequal cells ... so you have warning. The HK 9xr pack will not give you that warning ... as I see it.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm Hextronic - wake up and give us a real answer ...

Nigel

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  WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums - Discuss radio control eflight > R/C Electric Topics - General > RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros

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