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Old 05-02-2014, 03:21 AM   #1
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Default Dual rate and exponential settings

I have only been flying for 1 season, currently using the E-Flight Apprentice.
Last season I used the 5 channel transmitter that came with the plane. I recently purchased the DX6i transmitter.
With the 5 channel transmitter it has training settings to limit the amount of lift, roll etc. so that it is easier to fly (training mode).
I was wondering if setting the dual rate and exponential on my new controller would do the same thing.
I am looking to set limits so that it is easier to fly as I gain more experience. I would like to be able to hold the aileron control all the way left or right and not have the plane roll completely over.....
Is this possible by setting these limit?
If so, what % would you recommend for aileron and elevator?
Thanks
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:43 AM   #2
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Expo can make the center of stick movement less sensitive while still leaving full control throw available.

Dual rate will swap between full throw and some lesser amount depending on how you set it.

I personally prefer dual expo with the full thro always available if I need it. But this set up is a matter of what I am doing and can interfere with some styles of flying.

When using expo start at about 20% and adjust from there. Note that JR/Spektrum use reverse +/- value expo vs Futaba so you want to make sure you use the setting that will make the control less sensitive in center, not make it hypersensitive.

Similarly when you set up dual rates initially set one value to give the max control throw you are used to. and the other about 20% to 30% more (or less) So you can instantly put the plane back to what you are used to.
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:52 AM   #3
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Sounds like you really want to limit the travel .on the control surfaces. So with dual rates, set the high to the highest level you feel comfortable with and the low to something less than that. Or , mechanically limit the throws.

As a beginner, I found the throws for the elevator were more critical than the aileron. After all , how will you ever learn a barrel or axial roll maneuver?
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Old 05-02-2014, 04:27 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Sounds like you really want to limit the travel .on the control surfaces. So with dual rates, set the high to the highest level you feel comfortable with and the low to something less than that. Or , mechanically limit the throws.

As a beginner, I found the throws for the elevator were more critical than the aileron. After all , how will you ever learn a barrel or axial roll maneuver?
Fully agree. Nice thing about dual rates, and expo, you can change how sensitive the model is to transmitter stick travel without messing around with the servo arms and clevises.

As for aileron throw, I've got a Vyper model that, if you use recommended aileron throw, it will rotate about 4 times per second. It's impossible to stop it right side up with that level of control. This model has 50%, 70% and 100% on triple rates, plus about 30% expo on all of them.

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Old 05-02-2014, 04:39 AM   #5
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My rule of thumb has been that the faster the model flies, the higher expo I dial in.
It works for me as I have slightly shaky thumbs and when those speedsters start zooming it doesn't take a lot of stick to get them to respond.

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Old 05-02-2014, 04:40 AM   #6
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You have to learn to stop aileron at the point you want and the turn with the elevator. Reducing aileron travel will technically slow roll rate, not stop roll, although on a high wing, it will likely stop roll, but making ailerons very slow acting. Treat ailerons the same as elevator. If you don't want looping, then don't go full elevator, but it you want a quick movement from elevator, go to a higher throw and then let off. High wings stabilize after ailerons are centered, but still have time to bank, and "yank" the elevator to swing the plane around. Exponential will allow controls to be less sensitive but allow you to move the plane around. For me, endpoint adjustment is something I use when the controls are so extreme at endpoints at 100%, and can cause control horns to collide with another control surface. I do this instead of manually decreasing throws. Also, too high of rates mskes thr flight too unstable at higher speeds. To make your plane roll less, exponential is what you need, allowing you to have slower movements, more controllable flight, but keep the endpoints that allow you to toss the plane of you with. It is unlikely that your plane has a high roll rate, so dumbing down endpoints shouldn't be too necessary. This is how I see it anyway. As for dual rates, you can have more extreme throws for slower speeds such as taxiing, takeoff and landing and then low rates for higher speeds where high rates would make everything erratic.
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:22 AM   #7
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Hi Newbie, and welcome to WF. It looks in your post like you're expecting d/r and expo to limit the pitch and back of your plane? That is absolutely not the case. The SAFE system gyros and stuff in the rx do that, controlled by the 3 position switch on your dx5. You'll have to check the Apprentice manual for how to control SAFE with your dx6i.
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Old 05-02-2014, 05:42 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by xmech2k View Post
Hi Newbie, and welcome to WF. It looks in your post like you're expecting d/r and expo to limit the pitch and back of your plane? That is absolutely not the case. The SAFE system gyros and stuff in the rx do that, controlled by the 3 position switch on your dx5. You'll have to check the Apprentice manual for how to control SAFE with your dx6i.
This is EXACTLY right. You simply cannot setup the DX6i as the DX5e with the three position "flight mode" switch. The DX6i has NO 3 position switch. You will be limited to 2 of the three flight modes if you fly it with the DX6i. Again, like Xmech said, the anti roll, anti dive/climb function in this plane is all controlled by the SAFE system programmed into the RX. DR and Expo has NOTHING to do with it at all.
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:09 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Chucksolo69 View Post
This is EXACTLY right. You simply cannot setup the DX6i as the DX5e with the three position "flight mode" switch. The DX6i has NO 3 position switch. You will be limited to 2 of the three flight modes if you fly it with the DX6i. Again, like Xmech said, the anti roll, anti dive/climb function in this plane is all controlled by the SAFE system programmed into the RX. DR and Expo has NOTHING to do with it at all.
Which is why I explained to him about copying surface movement amounts to the Dx6i .. he's going to have to make the jump sooner or later from the baby-carriage SAFE to real flying ..

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Old 05-02-2014, 06:36 PM   #10
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Welcome Newbie55....you've come to a great info place. Be patient, sorting through the various responses that fit your "specific need", at times, can be time consuming........

Thank you Xmech and Chucksolo for pointing out that the OP made it clear that his issue was directly related to his E-Flight Apprentice, Spektrum DX5 and DX6i......rather than explaining to a newbee, details of what they use or know about Expo & Dual-Rates, ect. ect......although could be helpful down the road.

The advice provided by you two, and pointing out the limitations of the specific craft and transmitters/reciever was spot on!

More often than not, simply keeping advice "specifically" related to the "facts" on hand and basic (particularly) for a new flyer, will serve much better as a "starting point" for discussion, rather than just posting a "helpful", "knowledge and experienced" filled response that may lend itself to confusion (by the OP) and continued, endless discussion by those who enjoy responding!

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Old 05-02-2014, 08:52 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Newbie55 View Post
I have only been flying for 1 season, currently using the E-Flight Apprentice.
Last season I used the 5 channel transmitter that came with the plane. I recently purchased the DX6i transmitter.
With the 5 channel transmitter it has training settings to limit the amount of lift, roll etc. so that it is easier to fly (training mode).
I was wondering if setting the dual rate and exponential on my new controller would do the same thing.
It should reduce the reaction of the model to your control input and make it less 'twitchy' ...

I am looking to set limits so that it is easier to fly as I gain more experience. I would like to be able to hold the aileron control all the way left or right and not have the plane roll completely over.....
Is this possible by setting these limit?
Aileron at no matter what setting will cause a complete continued roll ... Reduced movement just slows it down. In fact rudder can do same but usually rudder causes roll and then into a rolling dive.

If so, what % would you recommend for aileron and elevator?
Thanks
Basically take your 5 Tx and see what movements are with it normal and reduced ... reproduce those movement on the 6 by using the Dual rate function. With the expo - this softens the centre movement so I would suggest on a trainer like model no more than about 30% .. too much and you will feel mushy and then start over-controlling ..

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Old 05-02-2014, 03:11 PM   #12
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Was playing wtih my DX8 yesterday and a new to me over wing pusher design plane - it's really cool to be able to set up REA's on DR and expo. Using the 3 position switches I set 0 as the 100% and the 1 as 70% and the 2 as 50%. I could find no literature on this plane as to high and low throw settings or else I would have set the DR using actual deflections. unfortunately it was extremely windy and for my first real aileron set up chose to fly RE only for the day. But it is set to go! SCott
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Old 05-03-2014, 01:35 AM   #13
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Thanks pizzano. I try! Now if only we can hear back from newbie55! Are you still here?
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:11 AM   #14
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Yep, I'm here, just digesting all the information! Thanks to everyone for the help. Clearly I have a lot to learn but looking forward to advancing in my skills each flight.
So if I understand the consensus....the dual rate and exponential are used to "soften" the controls for a smoother flight. They have nothing to do with limiting the amount of throw, this is controlled by the SAFE feature built into the Apprentice model itself.
I'll read up on how to get my new controller to link with the SAFE technology of the Apprentice.
Thank you all again for the advice, I really appreciate the help.
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Newbie55 View Post
Yep, I'm here, just digesting all the information! Thanks to everyone for the help. Clearly I have a lot to learn but looking forward to advancing in my skills each flight.
So if I understand the consensus....the dual rate and exponential are used to "soften" the controls for a smoother flight. They have nothing to do with limiting the amount of throw, this is controlled by the SAFE feature built into the Apprentice model itself.
I'll read up on how to get my new controller to link with the SAFE technology of the Apprentice.
Thank you all again for the advice, I really appreciate the help.
Glad to hear you're still here, but your definitions or understanding of flight are still off. D/R and expo are all about how much control throws are. But control throws do not limit the amount of pitch or bank the plane is limited to. You can make control throws real small, so the plane will respond slowly, but that won't keep the plane from going upside down. It just means it will take longer to get upside down.
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Old 05-03-2014, 09:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Newbie55 View Post
Yep, I'm here, just digesting all the information! Thanks to everyone for the help. Clearly I have a lot to learn but looking forward to advancing in my skills each flight.
So if I understand the consensus....the dual rate and exponential are used to "soften" the controls for a smoother flight. They have nothing to do with limiting the amount of throw, this is controlled by the SAFE feature built into the Apprentice model itself.
I'll read up on how to get my new controller to link with the SAFE technology of the Apprentice.
Thank you all again for the advice, I really appreciate the help.
This is exactly what some people have posted against in other threads and forums - SAFE is a great AID to flying but needs to be understood for what it really is and how to move on from it. It also needs to be read up on ... to see how it affects controls and it's difference with a model without.
Sorry - but your understanding of SAFE and DR / Expo is still of the mark. SAFE provides a stabilising factor to assist in maintaining the model in the air .. to level out, to help correct learners errors. Bit like Fly by Wire.
DR and Expo are not same .. they adjust the control movements according to your settiings you make in Tx .. DR gives you two surface movement settings .. one with a lot of movement, other with reduced as you set in % of the first. Expo softens the .. in effect spreads out the movement in the first half of stick movement .. so you don't have the Bang Bang when you first move sticks.
DR and Expo do not give you SAFE Gyro techno aid .. there is no self recovery .. there is no stabilising effect.

My post #8 .. tried to help you understand what DR and Expo can do for you ... based on your questions ..

SAFE is great - but you need to move on .. I also believe that your model with SAFE - you have provision to switch it OFF and ON during flight ?

If so - Get up nice and high .. steady flight across one side to other .. switch OFF SAFE.. try fly a bit - switch back ON .. increase the time you fly without each time till you find that you do not really need it ... then swap to the 6i .. using the last bit of my #8 to set your control movements.

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Old 05-03-2014, 03:09 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
....

SAFE is great - but you need to move on .. I also believe that your model with SAFE - you have provision to switch it OFF and ON during flight ?

...

Nigel
Yes, that's Expert Mode. You would still have AS3X, but no pitch or roll limits.
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Old 05-03-2014, 03:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by xmech2k View Post
Yes, that's Expert Mode. You would still have AS3X, but no pitch or roll limits.
That's ok .. I'm not a user of such ... but am looking to use the Orange 3 axis which I gather the AS3X will closely mimic ?

I'm not against such tools as some people ... for me - its' what people like that is important - not everyone flies same or wants to fly same.
I get a real satisfaction out of gliding round with the ASK21 .. or carving the air up as a maniacal speed machine .. Bith of which are totally different and also different to other people. Gyro's / SAFE is same as I'm concerned.

It is nice though if a person can progress on from it ... broadens the field .. allows them to fly other peoples models etc.

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Old 05-03-2014, 04:08 AM   #19
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When you get away from the SAFE system and take control completely of the plane, that's when expo and all that stuff comes into play more. Expo softens movements, dual rate is for when you want the most control throws at slower speeds, giving you more authority with less wind going over surfaces. Switch to low rate to give less throw for normal flight, where more air is going over the surfaces. Sorry before, I skipped over the idea of the SAFE system. The system will take care off most things, making it not stall and such. Once you get away from it, I suggest not trying to duplicate it with settings, but learn what it is doing: it know when the plane will stall, you must learn to and correct. If you don't want a roll, you must learn to stop going right or left on the stick when you want the roll to stop. You can't make adjust the throws to a minimal to get what the system is doing, because it isn't doing that, it's stopping input to prevent various unwanted actions, and you simply must be that system. Take a look at stunt flight, the planes will roll 90 degrees, stop, roll another 90. This is from a stopping aileron input. For your apprentice, I would put on 20-30 expo, dual rates shouldn't be needed for it I feel.
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Old 05-04-2014, 01:49 AM   #20
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AS3X is great for small planes, like my UMX SBach. It doesn't stop you from screwing up, but on a apprentice sized plane, I think it is also something you should learn to get away from. It will correct every bit of wind and I think one must learn to deal with wind. Of course there is a limit, but if fly in wind, it's important to know what it does to the plane and adjust yourself. On micros, it is necessary as even light gusts toss the plane. For the apprentice, and similar sized or larger, I think it's necessary to learn flight with no aids.
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Old 05-04-2014, 11:05 PM   #21
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Newbie, here's a good read if you're not too familiar with how planes really fly:
Aerodynamics in flight

It's a site for full scale pilots, but all the stuff relates to our little planes as well.
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:07 AM   #22
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Unfortunately systems like SAFE often become crutches and they can hobble your progress.

We generally get people past needing the auto-stabilizer setting that prevents rolling more than about 30 to 45 deg holding full ailerons on the first buddy box lesson. I really think that setting is doing the beginner more harm than good.

Your first flight under instruction should have the instructor guiding you through a loop and a full axial roll. They are EASY.

Loop :
Apply some extra power...
OK pull back the stick about halfway... hold it...
as the plane gets over the top let off the elevator then start pulling again.
At appx 10 deg nose down (approaching level) let go of the stick and the typical trainer will level on out for you.

Roll:
Nose up about 10 deg and establish that line
give full aileron and hold till the plane has gone inverted and come back upright...
center the stick.
Should be very close to level flight again. If not, then make the corrections gently.

Every student gets big grin after their first loop...
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:41 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Unfortunately systems like SAFE often become crutches and they can hobble your progress.

We generally get people past needing the auto-stabilizer setting that prevents rolling more than about 30 to 45 deg holding full ailerons on the first buddy box lesson. I really think that setting is doing the beginner more harm than good.

Your first flight under instruction should have the instructor guiding you through a loop and a full axial roll. They are EASY.

Loop :
Apply some extra power...
OK pull back the stick about halfway... hold it...
as the plane gets over the top let off the elevator then start pulling again.
At appx 10 deg nose down (approaching level) let go of the stick and the typical trainer will level on out for you.

Roll:
Nose up about 10 deg and establish that line
give full aileron and hold till the plane has gone inverted and come back upright...
center the stick.
Should be very close to level flight again. If not, then make the corrections gently.

Every student gets big grin after their first loop...
Exactly ...

And that bit in red I highlighted .... most beginners panic and their loop is FULL elevator and with a trainer type - that will often screw her out near the top ..
It takes a bit of mind over matter to NOT pull that FULL ... as said 1/2 to 3/4 stick and she should go over OK .. if it cannot go over at 1/2 - then a little dive first to get some momentum ...

Who cares if it's not round .. who cares if the roll is not axial .. most old-hands are not that good either ...

Nigel

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Old 07-09-2014, 08:51 PM   #24
RayDF
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Default Apprentice S and the Spektrum DX6i

Without going into the discussion if SAFE mode is good for you or not, I wonder if anyone here has specific information (or can refer me to such information) of how to program the DX6i for full use of the SAFE mode and "Panic" function in a DX6i? The Apprentice manual "explains" this in page 22 but neither myself nor any of my buddies at the flying club are able to figure it out correctly.

I know that with the DX6i you can only have two of the three SAFE modes available and that's OK (I would choose "Beginner" and "Expert") but the indicated settings --or our interpretation of them-- don't seem to work and we can't manage to obtain the "Expert" SAFE mode nor the "Panic" function. All we get is the "Beginner" mode and no "Panic" function is available.

Any SAFE mode / Spektrum DX6i experts in the house? Thanks in advance for any help!

Ray
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:14 AM   #25
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Default

Originally Posted by RayDF View Post
Without going into the discussion if SAFE mode is good for you or not, I wonder if anyone here has specific information (or can refer me to such information) of how to program the DX6i for full use of the SAFE mode and "Panic" function in a DX6i? The Apprentice manual "explains" this in page 22 but neither myself nor any of my buddies at the flying club are able to figure it out correctly.

I know that with the DX6i you can only have two of the three SAFE modes available and that's OK (I would choose "Beginner" and "Expert") but the indicated settings --or our interpretation of them-- don't seem to work and we can't manage to obtain the "Expert" SAFE mode nor the "Panic" function. All we get is the "Beginner" mode and no "Panic" function is available.

Any SAFE mode / Spektrum DX6i experts in the house? Thanks in advance for any help!
It is possible to have 3 positions on the gear switch on a DX6i. In the same way as I have 3 position flaps on a DX6i for my Sportcub. You use mixing to set the channel on a second switch and program it for midway. For my flaps, the ele D/R switch gives me 50% flaps and the flaps switch gives 100%.

If you Google 3 position flaps on DX6i for instructions and adapt for the gear channel... As I didn't save any text or pics when I set mine up.

It will, at least, give you 3 positions on the gear channel. Which *should* allow the RX to use 3 settings. Sadly, I don't have a SAFE RX to play with to make sure... But its worth a go.
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