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Old 07-10-2014, 02:58 AM   #1
dereckbc
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Default Visionaire Landing Help

Hey Visionaire owners need some tips and advice on landing.

I fly the plane just fine, but landing has me perplexed a little and I am pretty sure it has to to with the gyro RX in it. I did something a little different today and it seemed to work OK, but I wanted to run it by experienced Visionaire pilots.

The RX holds the pitch and roll angle to whatever you set it to with the controls. For normal landing I would normally cut the throttle. let descend to just above the ground, level and then flare just before touch down. When I try that with the Visionaire it either tip stalls or just stalls and falls out of the sky.

Today what I did was put the throttle at about 40 to 50% and set the pitch to level flight or straight on the horizon. Turned final and then used the throttle to control vertical speed up or down. Basically flew it to the ground. The RX keeps the wings level assuming it is going fast enough, and the nose up on the horizon. Then just before touch down cut the throttle and flare.

It seems to work but a little faster then what I would like. Normally I would like to just level out a couple of feet above the ground, cut throttle and slowly let the plane down and drag the tail Cannot do that with this plane and have to land on main gear a little hot and it tends to bounce land a bit until the speed bleeds off enough to settle.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:16 AM   #2
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One of the issues with over-dependence on the gyros...

Don't trim it for as high a throttle setting if you are going to depend on the gyro for keeping it stable on approach. Trim it for a slower airspeed.

The real problem is that the gyro is fighting the airplane's natural tendency to drop the nose as it approaches stall. That forces the airplane deeper into the stall with no warning. If it was possible to just turn off the pitch axis of the gyro that would help because it would let the nose drop.

Trimming for low speed and controlling descent with throttle is fine. Its actually one of the better ways to deal with landing. In essence trim controls airspeed for level flight and then power controls whether you are going up or down or holding altitude. This is a NORMAL PRACTICE for full scale.

You can just blip throttle (not extreme full... just 10% or so more power than used for the descent) and not touch elevator and it will flair for you if trimmed right...
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:28 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
One of the issues with over-dependence on the gyros...
I don't think so. In fact pretty sure it has less to do with the Gyro than you think.

Do you have the VA?

Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Don't trim it for as high a throttle setting if you are going to depend on the gyro for keeping it stable on approach. Trim it for a slower airspeed.
The VA is in trim or out of trim. It flies the same slow as it does fast - no trim changes needed. The design sees to that.

And again DO NOT TRIM THE VA! You must mechanically adjust - due to the Gyros....

Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
The real problem is that the gyro is fighting the airplane's natural tendency to drop the nose as it approaches stall. That forces the airplane deeper into the stall with no warning. If it was possible to just turn off the pitch axis of the gyro that would help because it would let the nose drop.
Correct but the VA gyro can't be defeted in flight. Not a big deal as you just need to learn the "rules" of landing with this plane that is proper power management.

Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Trimming for low speed and controlling descent with throttle is fine. Its actually one of the better ways to deal with landing. In essence trim controls airspeed for level flight and then power controls whether you are going up or down or holding altitude. This is a NORMAL PRACTICE for full scale.
I agree 100% - except that this beast is trimmed at any throttle setting - quite remarkable.

Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
You can just blip throttle (not extreme full... just 10% or so more power than used for the descent) and not touch elevator and it will flair for you if trimmed right...
Correct - you do ahve to be careful - especially when landing in full 3D flight controls as the elevator gives a GREAT deal of control authority.

Mike
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:31 AM   #4
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She may be a little tail heavy. With a tail heavy model when you slow for landing the nose pitches up causing a stall, this is quite common with 3D models which tend to be balanced quite tail heavy by normal standards.

I've seen people add a mix between throttle and elevator that adds just a hind of down elevator at low throttle, though I dont do that myself.

But as noted above, for a plane like this you should normally be landing with a little power on anyway.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:22 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Hey Visionaire owners need some tips and advice on landing.
Happy to help -- the VA is a touch different but it too baffled me, when new. Now I have it dialed in.

Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
The RX holds the pitch and roll angle to whatever you set it to with the controls. For normal landing I would normally cut the throttle.
As you have figured out - you can't just "cut" throttle on this plane. You really should not do that on many planes.

The reason is the VA is large and draggy. This is much more the reason rather than the gyro, although that is NOT helping you.

So you MUST land with power. It does not take much however. I usually use about 10% power maybe even less.

Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Today what I did was put the throttle at about 40 to 50% and set the pitch to level flight or straight on the horizon. Turned final and then used the throttle to control vertical speed up or down.
Too much juice. 40% it will fly too fast but right idea, just the wrong amount of power.

Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Basically flew it to the ground. The RX keeps the wings level assuming it is going fast enough, and the nose up on the horizon. Then just before touch down cut the throttle and flare.
Bingo! This is EXACTLY what I do - fly it right into the ground. It sounds strange - but works VERY well! A very slight flair at the last keeps the nose from scraping.

One lesson for RC flying. I learned this while doing my full scale training. You control descent speed NOT WITH THE ELEVATOR but with throttle. You do exactly the same with the VA. Coming in too fast - more power, too slow less power.

Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
It seems to work but a little faster then what I would like. Normally I would like to just level out a couple of feet above the ground, cut throttle and slowly let the plane down and drag the tail Cannot do that with this plane and have to land on main gear a little hot and it tends to bounce land a bit until the speed bleeds off enough to settle.
This is because you too much power when you fly it in. Try less.

Here is what you need to do. Go to the field with as many charged batteries for the beast as you have. All you are going to do - is take-0ff's and landings. Take off do one circuit and land. Do that for the entire flight pack. Then put the next pack in and do the same.

After about 10 packs of doing this - you will have it down.

I can land the VA in the exact spot I want - remember to keep the power on. Power off - and you will have a hard landing or a snap - as you have noted.

Practice!

Mike
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
As you have figured out - you can't just "cut" throttle on this plane. You really should not do that on many planes.
You can on planes that don't have something like auto-pilot like the VA has. Pretty much exactly how I do it in a Cessna 172, set the airspeed to 70 knots with elevator and full flaps, and control vertical speed with throttle. Cross the threshold, cut throttle, flare, and touch down around 55 knots.

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
So you MUST land with power.... It does not take much however. I usually use about 10% power maybe even less.
Yep figured that out already

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
One lesson for RC flying. I learned this while doing my full scale training. You control descent speed NOT WITH THE ELEVATOR but with throttle. You do exactly the same with the VA. Coming in too fast - more power, too slow less power.
Thanks Mike I think I got a handle on it. I wished I could turn off the RX gyros on landing, at least the pitch gyros. From what I can tell is set the pitch to the correct attitude for landing to level with Horizon or just a little up as that is where the gyor will keep it assuming the plane has enough air speed. Then just use Throttle to control vertical speed to go up or down but never cut throttle or STALL as the gyros try to keep the nose up.
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Old 07-11-2014, 01:26 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
You can on planes that don't have something like auto-pilot like the VA has. Pretty much exactly how I do it in a Cessna 172, set the airspeed to 70 knots with elevator and full flaps, and control vertical speed with throttle. Cross the threshold, cut throttle, flare, and touch down around 55 knots.
You should never land with no power, not RC and for sure not full scale...

As you know 70 knots is still some pretty good power.

Power is good and yes think full scale and use power to control your descent.

Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Thanks Mike I think I got a handle on it. I wished I could turn off the RX gyros on landing, at least the pitch gyros. From what I can tell is set the pitch to the correct attitude for landing to level with Horizon or just a little up as that is where the gyor will keep it assuming the plane has enough air speed. Then just use Throttle to control vertical speed to go up or down but never cut throttle or STALL as the gyros try to keep the nose up.
Yep power. That is all you need. The gyro is not really the big culprit here rather the big huge draggy wing! The VA drops airspeed as fast as any airplane I have flown.

Keep at it and lots of landing practice. You will have it after 100 landings or so!
Mike
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Old 07-11-2014, 02:23 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Keep at it and lots of landing practice. You will have it after 100 landings or so!
Mike
I can only hope it stays in one piece that long. Already two props and one cowl.
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Old 07-11-2014, 05:59 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
I can only hope it stays in one piece that long. Already two props and one cowl.
Dereck,

Why don't you try just moving the CG a little forward and see if it helps. It's as simple as moving the battery and it you don't like it just put it back where it was.

Cant do any harm to try.
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Old 07-11-2014, 05:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
As you know 70 knots is still some pretty good power.
Notable exception being sailplanes This will include most powered sailplanes because if you apply any power they wont come down
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:03 PM   #11
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My solution was to pull the RX with gyro and put in a normal RX...
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
My solution was to pull the RX with gyro and put in a normal RX...
But now that I have landings figured out - the AS3X is brilliant in-flight. I love how it turns off the wind.

I do admit - it would be nice to have it on/off from the TX. I believe the newer AS3X versions offer this.

ML
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:49 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
But now that I have landings figured out - the AS3X is brilliant in-flight. I love how it turns off the wind. ML
Thought I would visit back with a closing and share my learning curve so it might help any new owners get to maximum performance faster.

As Mike stated tune/trim the plane with linkage adjustments, not electronic adjustments. Take off with every controlled and trim centered, fly around once and adjust. Take off repeat.

For me the plane was a bit off with just a little to much up, and an annoying right roll. What worked best for me was work on only one axis at a time. For me that was pitch. Took me about five tries to get pitch and CG worked out. You will know you got it with a quick roll inverted. You should not have to apply any elevator to keep it from sinking or pitching up.

After that I knocked of the annoying roll in about 3 adjustments.

Once you get this plane tuned in, it is a dream to fly. It will fly well and easy at Slow speeds, or a guided missile at full power and goes wherever you point it. Or be an idiot like me going full power level in 3D mode and kicked the rudder hard left. Dang plane flew backwards, then flipped itself going forward with another bump of the rudder. I did not know it could do that. I just plain screwed up and did it by mistake.
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Old 07-11-2014, 06:25 AM   #14
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AS3X is essentially a 3 axis heading hold gyro which attempts to prevent change in pitch roll or yaw without command... that means the airplane will not drop the nose (without pilot input) in a stall until the stall has progressed to a point where its ready to spin.
That hides the normal visual cues we have used to "see" a stall and be able to respond before the plane falls out of the sky.

Its a double-edged sword. It can hide problems until its too late.
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Old 07-11-2014, 04:24 PM   #15
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You are correct to some degree. In my experience trying to land like a real plane, the plane does not tip stall, it just falls and drops like a brick. Now that I understand what is happening I will now set the pitch to just slightly above horizon, level the wings, steer with rudder, and control accent/decent with throttle when landing.


Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
AS3X is essentially a 3 axis heading hold gyro which attempts to prevent change in pitch roll or yaw without command... that means the airplane will not drop the nose (without pilot input) in a stall until the stall has progressed to a point where its ready to spin.
That hides the normal visual cues we have used to "see" a stall and be able to respond before the plane falls out of the sky.

Its a double-edged sword. It can hide problems until its too late.
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