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Old 08-24-2014, 12:14 AM   #1
quorneng
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Default Bombardier Q400

A scratch build twin.
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I have seen these flying out of Liverpool Airport and at any altitude the wings look like pencils!
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It seems like a good subject for a really lightweight design and with that tiny wing area it would have to be as a park flyer.

Apart from the challenge of building the long fuselage it has some features that would help the build.
The wing is mounted completely above the fuselage 'tube' so structurally easier to do.
The engine nacelles are huge so no problem fitting the ESC and flight battery in each side.
Although a 6 blade prop is really too difficult however even a 3 blade would be huge.

So a hand launch, belly land all Depron twin.
That's about as far as I have got. The real question is could I possibly finish it by 15th Sept?
We shall see


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Old 08-24-2014, 01:39 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
A scratch build twin.
Attachment 177039
I have seen these flying out of Liverpool Airport and at any altitude the wings look like pencils!
Attachment 177040
It seems like a good subject for a really lightweight design and with that tiny wing area it would have to be as a park flyer.

Apart from the challenge of building the long fuselage it has some features that would help the build.
The wing is mounted completely above the fuselage 'tube' so structurally easier to do.
The engine nacelles are huge so no problem fitting the ESC and flight battery in each side.
Although a 6 blade prop is really too difficult however even a 3 blade would be huge.

So a hand launch, belly land all Depron twin.
That's about as far as I have got. The real question is could I possibly finish it by 15th Sept?
We shall see
With your building Skills, you should be able to have that plane built in less than 2 weeks

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 08-24-2014, 02:21 AM   #3
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Should be awesome. Good luck! Can't wait to see it.(Amazing those little wings carry all that! )
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Old 08-25-2014, 12:58 PM   #4
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A little bit further.
On of the problem starting from a small 3 view is the lines get very blurred when printed out at the intended size.
Like this.
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So after a few hours redrawing the small 3 view line by line on my computer but at a much larger scale the lines remain sharp even when printed out big.
This is a small size version of the file that can be downloaded.
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The big file is 9600 pixels wide. The same bit now looks like this.
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I have also done the side and front views.
Now I have to work out how on earth to actually make something this big in sheet Depron.
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It is just over 6' 6" (2000mm) long.
Yes, my Concorde is a bit longer but that had a wing built along most of its fuselage length. This fuselage will be supported just in the middle.
Why this particular size?
It is set by the only 'handed' pair of 3 bladed props I could find. 9x5x3.

Find the props and build the plane to match!


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Old 08-27-2014, 04:03 PM   #5
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At this stage any amount of thinking things out can save a lot of time in the long run.
For a really lightweight build the real problem is the fuselage (its by far the biggest bit!) rather than the wings. The lightest construction method is a stressed skin over closely spaced 'ring' formers much as is done in full size.
A 3mm Depron skin needs to be supported at least every 2" (50mm) which means there would be 23 identical formers in just the parallel portion of the fuselage.
I did consider making these 5.75" (150mm) diam formers complete in one piece but it would use up a huge amount of Depron.
I eventually chose to build the fuselage as a 'half shell' over the plan from top and bottom keels and to save Depron each former ring would be made up of quarters.
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Two quarters joined to make the half circle formers being added to the keels. The keels are joined by thin 'jury' struts that will be removed once the other side is added
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When all the formers are in place a start can be made with the planking.
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I had not intended to use grey Depron but this portion of the fuselage is over 43" (1100mm) long so the planks have to be cut from the big 1250mm sheets that are only available in grey.

Having proposed this for the $100 twin contest there must be a real possibility that such a complex build will not be completed in time but I will keep plugging away just in case.


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Old 08-27-2014, 11:33 PM   #6
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This should be a pretty amazing build. Best of luck with it!

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Old 08-29-2014, 12:35 PM   #7
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With the half shell almost fully planked it can be lifted from the plan.
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A start on the other half of the formers.
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It occurred to me that the fuselage would need local reinforcing under the wing mount to resist the weight of the wing in a belly landing so extra formers with full internal sheeting.
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It is also where the plane will be held for launching.

At this stage the fuselage has little torsional rigidity so the planks will have to added alternate sides to avoid building in a twist or a banana!


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Old 08-30-2014, 05:02 PM   #8
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Completing the fuselage formers is a slow process.
This shows the sequence.
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First the remaining half of the former ring is glued on and the jury strut removed.
Then the one piece inner flange is added to turn the former into an "I" beam. A tricky operation as it has to be cut to exactly the right length to ensure it makes contact all the way round the inside of the ring.
A flange is added to the lower keel to also turn that into an "I" beam.
Finally another jury strut is added to keep the former square.
Access limitations mean that each former has to be completed before work can start on the rest one and there are 23 to do!
Eventually it looks like this.
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Now there just 17 more planks to add!

And it definitely wont be complete by the 15th so it is no longer an competition entry.
I suppose I could submit my Hamilcar X. It was first built nearly 5 years ago but has only recently had its true maiden flight! (All the previous attempts were only seconds long and ended in a crash!)


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Old 08-31-2014, 08:06 PM   #9
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The last plank, or rather the space where it is has to fit!
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always the most difficult as it has to fit both sides all along it length.
The engine nacelles are huge (16" long!) and would not look out of place as the fuselage of a small park flyer.
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There should be masses of room to fit the motor, ESC and battery in each.
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With the radio in the wing and the rudder & elevator servos in the T tail (their cables will run in the dorsal spine) it means the fuselage will have absolutely nothing in it!


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Old 09-01-2014, 12:21 AM   #10
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Nice!
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:34 PM   #11
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Impressive work, sir.

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Old 09-21-2014, 02:03 PM   #12
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As this is not in the twin build contest any more things have slowed down a bit coupled with a long period of very good flying weather!
With the rear part built the fuselage is now at its full length.
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Near enough 6'6". Quite a bit of sanding and filling to do.
The planking has been left off the top at the rear to allow its enormous fin to be 'built in' to the fuselage.


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Old 10-05-2014, 07:59 PM   #13
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Having finished the cascade ducted Harrier work can start again on this.
Being a T tail the fin needs to be fairly stiff but on such a long fuselage it is also a long way back. Weight is critical so I decided to use a substantial 'full with the surface' balsa/Depron/balsa spar like this.
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The fin spar will extend right through the fuselage.
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Lifted from the plan the 3mm Depron skin can be added.
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The missing section of skin is to allow the rudder servo to be added.
The fin installed on the fuselage.
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The fin spar as actually inserted into the fuselage lower skin as shown by the red circle.
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The tailplane is next.


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Old 10-28-2014, 11:18 PM   #14
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Slowly creeping on. The tailplane.
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All 3mm Depron with the tapered balsa spar flanges as part of the skin to give the maximum depth. The Q400 tailplane uses a conventional air-foil section but it is upside down.
The elevator halves are joined by a short glass fibre tube.
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The horn is glued to the mid point of the tube so it will be hidden inside the fairing on the top of the fin.
The elevator servo is almost completely buried in the tailplane.
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The substantial fairing on top of the fin completely hides the elevator linkage - just!
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The rudder servo is built into the lower part of the fin with just part of the servo arm protruding.
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The rudder is centre pin hinged top and bottom.
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To reach the radio, which will be in the wing centre section, the servo extension leads have to be nearly 1000 mm long.

This picture does rather show how 'spindly' the wing is compared to the fuselage.
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The span is quite a bit less than the fuselage length and the wing chord even at the root is less than the fuselage diameter!


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Old 11-19-2014, 02:21 AM   #15
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The Q400 has a surprisingly thick (18%) wing at the root for a fast plane and it is almost a 'sail plane' type section with the maximum thickness well aft and a slight under camber at the trailing edge. It reduces to 13% at the tip.
The centre section and outer panel ribs.
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With the motors way out in front of the wing and the elevator and rudder servos right at the back whilst they should more or less cancel out it does mean the wing centre section will have to withstand a substantial torque as well as any bending loads.
As a result it has a substantial balsa/Depron/balsa box spar.
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It has internal webs corresponding to the rib positions.
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By comparison the wing outer panels only need a much more modest "I" beam spar.
The centre section complete.
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The upper rear skin is left off to give access to install the radio within the wing.


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