TH Vista EP

[Flash1940]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Ed, the Chrysalis is a nice lookin bird. Is that transparent film easier to see up high than the solids? I like those KD's myself although I'm fond of the A22-20L. Where can I find those Chrysalis kits Ed? Thanks again you guys.

Chappy

Hi Chappy......I can answer that question.... Here... http://www.djaerotech.com/

I also fly a Vista and am in the construction of a Chrysalis. Mine will have the same motor as Ed's. I'm the one that found that the wing of the Vista and it's stab were NOT at the same incidence. After putting a block of balsa under the wing's trailing edge....all is now lined up. You will NEVER get the CG adjusted unless it's set zero - zero. I couldn't keep it from porpoising without moving the CG forward of the normal point. And I always needed to use up trim when the CG was correct. The dive test failed every time. Now it's a pleasure to fly and I'm beginning to notice the thermals a little better. Going to take me a long time to learn thermalling. I got above cloud cover once....that was a thrill......I could barely see it !

Flash

[mred]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Yea Clint thats what I'm working on now. An old 40 sized fuselage and several wings were left at our club for anyone who wanted to try and put them back in the air. I obsconded with them and have recently been stripping the old film off with the intent on trying my hand at covering. Only experience I have there is smoothing out the wrinkles in several of my models with the wife's cloths iron. hehe. Some equipment is in order before I can get too serious.

Ed, the Chrysalis is a nice lookin bird. Is that transparent film easier to see up high than the solids? I like those KD's myself although I'm fond of the A22-20L. Where can I find those Chrysalis kits Ed? Thanks again you guys.

Chappy

I'm not sure about your remark about the KD motors. The 22-20L is the KD motor. The whole thing is KD A22-20L the way it is listed at Hobby City.

As for the transparent covering, I love them. You can see through most of them very good while flying, but the MonoKote transparent blue is almost solid. They are about the same to see when you are flying and no harder or easier to see, just better looking down low in my opinion.

I think the best covering iron is the Coverite iron along with their trim iron. You will also need a sock for the iron. I have tried them all and haven't found a better one yet. A household iron will work, but they are clumsier to use then a good iron. We all started out using the household iron until they came out with these. When covering the wing, always start with the bottom and then go to the top. It looks better that way. As you get higher, they all get more and more like a solid covering and start changing colors. After you reach a higher altitude, the bottom of the wing just looks black. I've had mine up to 2150ft according to my Eagle Tree altimeter and it just looks black up there.

http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_product/ Try here for the Chrysalis kit. Just go down to the sailplane section and while you can convert the normal sailplane to motor, the motor sailplane is better to start with for a beginner. Make sure you down load the Ask J&D section. There is a lot to read and it will educate you as to how the glider is built and flown. There is a lot of useful information in there.

Good luck with it and if you get one, don't worry about building it, it's easy. After all, it's designed for beginners.

Ed

[Chappy]

Flash/Mred:
Thanks for the link, some very good informative and helpful info there. Still not sure what ship I'll end up going with, the Dynaflite The Bird of Time has spiked my interest as well. RCgroups has a very interesting and detailed thread on converting a BoT to E power.

Recently my Vista's KD A22-20L develped a lot of vibration and I had to investigate. As I had recently gone to a new folder prop/spinner, initially thought that was my problem. After changing several prop/spinner/adapter combinations and the vibration still remained I figured the motor had a bad bearring. There was some noticable up/down side/side slop so I began the task of removing the motor. I quickly discovered that the cross motor mount was broken. After removing a couple cross mount screws and a motor screw or two the motor came out in my hand. The cross mount had disintegrated into 3 pieces! How that was possible I don't know but I've replaced it with another of the same kind (came with the motor) and the vibration is gone. So for now I'm back in action.

In making the repair I made some modifications to the motor compartment to make the next motor removal a bit easier. I removed some balist that initially I thought was needed and carved out some more of the front end of the fusalage which is now squared instead of round, and this time I screwed the nose piece on for easy removal. I was actually able to mount the cross mount to the motor first and then install the motor w/mount into the nose and still had room enough to get my screw driver in to install the firewall mounting screws. Now she's down to a slim 29.9 oz w/o battery; 35.8 AuW using a 2200 mha flightmax battery.

I ran the setup thru my eflight watt meter and with a fresh 11.1v flightmax battery I was getting 17.8A for 203 watts using the 10x6 folder. Seems it can take a 11" prop before going over the 25a rating.

[mred]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Flash/Mred:
Thanks for the link, some very good informative and helpful info there. Still not sure what ship I'll end up going with, the Dynaflite The Bird of Time has spiked my interest as well. RCgroups has a very interesting and detailed thread on converting a BoT to E power.

Recently my Vista's KD A22-20L develped a lot of vibration and I had to investigate. As I had recently gone to a new folder prop/spinner, initially thought that was my problem. After changing several prop/spinner/adapter combinations and the vibration still remained I figured the motor had a bad bearring. There was some noticable up/down side/side slop so I began the task of removing the motor. I quickly discovered that the cross motor mount was broken. After removing a couple cross mount screws and a motor screw or two the motor came out in my hand. The cross mount had disintegrated into 3 pieces! How that was possible I don't know but I've replaced it with another of the same kind (came with the motor) and the vibration is gone. So for now I'm back in action.

In making the repair I made some modifications to the motor compartment to make the next motor removal a bit easier. I removed some balist that initially I thought was needed and carved out some more of the front end of the fusalage which is now squared instead of round, and this time I screwed the nose piece on for easy removal. I was actually able to mount the cross mount to the motor first and then install the motor w/mount into the nose and still had room enough to get my screw driver in to install the firewall mounting screws. Now she's down to a slim 29.9 oz w/o battery; 35.8 AuW using a 2200 mha flightmax battery.

I ran the setup thru my eflight watt meter and with a fresh 11.1v flightmax battery I was getting 17.8A for 203 watts using the 10x6 folder. Seems it can take a 11" prop before going over the 25a rating.

Careful with that 25A rating. That is burst rating, not continuous rating. The constant amps is 20A and 25A for 60 seconds. I have run an 11X6 folding prop on mine and the only thing I noticed was the motor was a little warmer after I came down. I put my Eagle Tree in there and it showed 23.6 amps at full power in a climb. That's fine as long as you keep the run short, but don't go running that motor like that constantly, or you will burn it up. I didn't see any performance increase out of it with the 11" prop, so went back to the 10X6 prop. It climbs just as good on that one and less power going out of the battery. I know the power difference is not all that much, but for the difference in performance it is to small to see.

Ed

[Chappy]

Mred:
I haven't flown since my afore mentioned problem, but I was rather dissapointed with the climb rate with the 10x6 as compared to the previous (but temporary) prop saver with the 11X4.7 SF. Quite possibly the vibration/mount issue had a lot to do with it but it just didn't seem to have any zip. Of course it was making a racket and I wasn't sure why so I didn't really give it a fair chance at WOT. I was hoping a little more prop would be the answer. I usually don't go WOT for very long. I'll run it through the meter first to have a good idea of how hard I can run it. I'm hoping that since I've made the mount repair and shaved almost 2 more oz of weight off it will have it's zip back. I can still trim off some weight by switching out the full size servo's I'm running now with mini's. Wind is becoming a bigger issue now this time of the year and I suppose I'll need to add some weight rather than remove it but for now I'll stay with what I've got.

[cbatters]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Mred:
I haven't flown since my afore mentioned problem, but I was rather dissapointed with the climb rate with the 10x6 as compared to the previous (but temporary) prop saver with the 11X4.7 SF. Quite possibly the vibration/mount issue had a lot to do with it but it just didn't seem to have any zip. Of course it was making a racket and I wasn't sure why so I didn't really give it a fair chance at WOT. I was hoping a little more prop would be the answer. I usually don't go WOT for very long. I'll run it through the meter first to have a good idea of how hard I can run it. I'm hoping that since I've made the mount repair and shaved almost 2 more oz of weight off it will have it's zip back. I can still trim off some weight by switching out the full size servo's I'm running now with mini's. Wind is becoming a bigger issue now this time of the year and I suppose I'll need to add some weight rather than remove it but for now I'll stay with what I've got.

11x4.7 has more thrust at the same RPM which is what you need to fight against gravity during a climb. 10x6 has more speed but less torque so I am not surprised you noticed reduced climbing ability.

[Flash1940]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Mred:
I haven't flown since my afore mentioned problem, but I was rather dissapointed with the climb rate with the 10x6 as compared to the previous (but temporary) prop saver with the 11X4.7 SF. Quite possibly the vibration/mount issue had a lot to do with it but it just didn't seem to have any zip. Of course it was making a racket and I wasn't sure why so I didn't really give it a fair chance at WOT. I was hoping a little more prop would be the answer. I usually don't go WOT for very long. I'll run it through the meter first to have a good idea of how hard I can run it. I'm hoping that since I've made the mount repair and shaved almost 2 more oz of weight off it will have it's zip back. I can still trim off some weight by switching out the full size servo's I'm running now with mini's. Wind is becoming a bigger issue now this time of the year and I suppose I'll need to add some weight rather than remove it but for now I'll stay with what I've got.

Question Chappy:.....Have you had a stalled in landing on the nose???....If you have....then it's possible you may have a bent shaft. You will need a dial indicator to see the run-out. Using a good eyeball isn't bad.....but not very precise.
Another issue....no bent shaft....but the spinner rubs the firewall at low throttle and smooths out.....or quits rubbing at a higher throttle.....solution: in the impact....the shaft was shoved back allowing the retainer clip to ride forward on the shaft. If you grasp the spinner and look at the space between the back of the spinner and the firewall can change when you push on the spinner....the clip has jumped out of it's groove. All this info is for motors mounted inside the fuse of the Vista.
Hope this is a bit helpful.

Flash

[mred]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Mred:
I haven't flown since my afore mentioned problem, but I was rather dissapointed with the climb rate with the 10x6 as compared to the previous (but temporary) prop saver with the 11X4.7 SF. Quite possibly the vibration/mount issue had a lot to do with it but it just didn't seem to have any zip. Of course it was making a racket and I wasn't sure why so I didn't really give it a fair chance at WOT. I was hoping a little more prop would be the answer. I usually don't go WOT for very long. I'll run it through the meter first to have a good idea of how hard I can run it. I'm hoping that since I've made the mount repair and shaved almost 2 more oz of weight off it will have it's zip back. I can still trim off some weight by switching out the full size servo's I'm running now with mini's. Wind is becoming a bigger issue now this time of the year and I suppose I'll need to add some weight rather than remove it but for now I'll stay with what I've got.

The 11X4.7 may give you more thrust then the 11X6, but it is killing you on the glide. You really need a folding prop and since they don't make folding props in a slowflier style, you can't get the flatter pitch props. You can get a good folding spinner with adapter from Hobby City and the folding blades from Esprite Models in FL. You will need a spinner with a 3mm adapter and if you want the 45mm spinner, then you will need to buy the 40mm also so you can get a 3mm adapter. They interchange, so that not a problem, but the 45mm is only in 4mm and up, no 3mm available. They don't cost much and they are the ones I use all the time. I really like them. When you buy a folding prop, make sure it has an 8mm shoulder on it.

Now that you have found the broken X mount, it should run better without all that shaking around and noise you were talking about. It sounds like you have the motor mounted on the outside of the nose too. You would be better off with the motor mounted on the inside and use the spinner for streamlining and also a folding prop.What ever you do, you need to get a folding prop and get rid of that anchor you have sticking out in front of that glider. It's almost as bad as flying around with the spoilers up and trying to catch thermals. It can be done, but you will be much better off with a folding prop and get rid of that slowflight drag machine. Even with the blades stopped, you will have a lot of drag. If you keep them turning while at low throttle, you will have even more drag. Try here;
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp...S&Category=615

You can use either the Graupner or Aeronaut folding props and they work great. Most people like the Aeronaut better, but I haven't see a lot of difference in them myself. I have used both. If you want a flatter blade, you can get the 9.5X5, but I don't think you want to do a lot of flight testing different props at these prices, unless you have a lot of money. The best overall that I have found is a 10X6 and that will stand it on it's tail. I don't think you can do much better then that.

You can get it to lite for flying. I am about 35oz and it flies great, but go much liter and you start getting to the point of not getting penetration in the wind and will have to add led to bring it back up to weight. If you need information on how to mount the motor inside the plane, let me know and I'll take some pictures to show you. It's much better inside then outside. Also, the prop adapter is made to go on the shaft of the motor. That's why you need to mount the motor on the inside of the nose with the shaft sticking out the front.

Ed

[Chappy]

Point understood Clint. Seems that's what I need more of .. thrust. Is there a folder that provides more thrust than others? I'm using the HC blades at the moment.

Nope Flash, no hard landings to this point. I had the motor out and replaced the cross mount. All that you mentioned seems to be OK to the naked eye. (mine anyway) It's a new motor, I did shift the shaft to the front (clip and grub screw reinstalled) before initial instalation but other than that it hasn't been altered. I've run it on the bench and seems good. Just haven't had the weather to fly lately. When I do I'll open it up and see if there's an improvement before I make other changes. I do have several shafts, so it's not a problem to change if that's what it needs.

Chappy

[Chappy]

A little cross communication difficulty.

Thought I'd attach these pic's Mred since a picture is said to be worth a thousand words. Seem's I'm up to speed with the suggestions you've made. If you have any others I'm all ears. Sorry the pic's aren't any better, the camera I'm using isn't much good for this kind of picture taking. Thanks for the link, I've added them to my favorites list.

[mred]

Well, you did good, except you kind of did it the hard way. Below is the way most people put theirs on and it makes it super easy to get out. Notice on the back side there is a brace holding the wires out of the way. This is a different glider, but it works the same on the Vista. I installed a 1/8" LitePly former behind the motor to hold the wires in place with a cutout on the corner for the wires to go through. The former slides up and down in a slot I made for it. Works great and keeps the wires out of the way of the rotating can.

I tried one of the props from Hobby City and didn't much care for them. I changed to Graupner and Aeronaut props and have had real good luck with them. The people at Esprite are very good people to work with and they ship fast. You can call or E-Mail them while they are open and they are more then willing to answer any questions you may have. With all the testing I have done, I still think the 10X6 Aeronaut is the way to go.

Ed

[Chappy]

Flash;

You got me thinking that maybe I'm overlooking something. Since I had another shaft I decided to replace the current shaft with a new one to eliminate any possibility the installed shaft was the cause of the vibration that initially broke the cross mount. While pondering the posibilities and sighting down the length of the rotor toward the motor base I could detect some 'out of round' as the rotor was spun slowly on the shaft. I removed the motor from the plane and not having a dial indicator guage, I used my dial calipers and measured the diamiter of the rotor as I spun it slowly with my fingers. It seems to be out of round by a difference of .004 of an inch, from 1.108 to 1.112". I don't know what the tollerances should be but I would suspect that is too much and and in fact would be greater if the right tool was used to measure it with. This seems to me to be the culpret that explains the vibration. I guess a replacement motor is in order.

Chappy

[mred]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Flash;

You got me thinking that maybe I'm overlooking something. Since I had another shaft I decided to replace the current shaft with a new one to eliminate any possibility the installed shaft was the cause of the vibration that initially broke the cross mount. While pondering the posibilities and sighting down the length of the rotor toward the motor base I could detect some 'out of round' as the rotor was spun slowly on the shaft. I removed the motor from the plane and not having a dial indicator guage, I used my dial calipers and measured the diamiter of the rotor as I spun it slowly with my fingers. It seems to be out of round by a difference of .004 of an inch, from 1.108 to 1.112". I don't know what the tollerances should be but I would suspect that is too much and and in fact would be greater if the right tool was used to measure it with. This seems to me to be the culpret that explains the vibration. I guess a replacement motor is in order.

Chappy

Now that you have the motor out, try running it in your hand and see how it feels. Take the prop off first and see if the motor runs true or if there is any vibration to it. You don't have to run it at full power, just run it up a little to about half or so. Did you replace the shaft yet? If not, replace the shaft and try this. It should run nice and smooth in your hand. Just hold it by the X mount and you should be able to tell if it is vibrating and if it is, then you need a new motor. The only thing you should have to worry about is torque and that will not be all that bad on that size motor. If holding it in your hand bothers you, then make a small board to hold it. Don't mount it on anything, just hold it in your hand. That way, you can feel it better. Mine run smooth as silk like that and so should yours.

Ed

[Chappy]

OK Ed gave it a try and it definately does vibrate. I didn't replace the shaft however but I can't see where that will change anything? The rotor is out of round, egg shaped and no matter how true it is running on the shaft it will continue to wobble. True?

[mred]

Originally Posted by Chappy

OK Ed gave it a try and it definately does vibrate. I didn't replace the shaft however but I can't see where that will change anything? The rotor is out of round, egg shaped and no matter how true it is running on the shaft it will continue to wobble. True?

If it is still vibrating and you can feel it, then it is time to replace the motor. I hate to say this, but if your motor is not shaped right and the thing is vibrating there is nothing you can do about it. I have 5 of them and all of mine run silky smooth while running in my hand. That's one of the tests I do with every motor I get and if they vibrate they get replaced. On the bigger motors I use a plywood plate to hold it so it won't twist out of my hand.

The shaft can cause it to wobbly if the can is not tracking straight, that's why I ask if you replaced the shaft. If the bell itself is out of round, then it's just to bad. No way to fix it short of putting it in a lathe and truing it down, but then most people don't have a lathe to run it on. You also run into balance problems trying that too, but then if it is bad anyway, you don't have much to loose.


Ed

[Chappy]

And my Vista modifications continue..

Recently I dumb thumbed my Funtana which was running the same KD motor as I am having problems with in my Vista. So I decided to do some parts swaping to make one good motor from two that both had different problems. The Funtan's motor shaft was bent so I pulled that rotor and replaced the shaft in it and put that rotor on the Vista's motor windings since the Vistas rotor was out of round. It seems to run smoothly in the hand so I planned to use it. I was wondering what the advantages might be that would cause the manufacturer to opt to extend the motor shaft out of the rear (wire end) instead of the forward (rotor/bell) end?? It seem reasonable to conclude that due to the long (37mm) rotor combined with 10 -12mm of shaft extending out from that and a prop attached to the end of it might tend to exaggerate any imperfection in any of the three componets. So I decided to modify the placement of the Vista's motor mount. I made a new mounting plate like Mred shows having done in post #86 above and carefully sanded it to fit snug and flush with the nose. I cut out the previous plywood mount and had to cut away part of the 2nd former directly behind it to make room to incert the motor backwards into the narrow nose channel. As the channel in the nose was rectangular in shape I turned the motor so that the wires were in a lower corner, away from the spinning rotor, and drilled the mounting holes accordingly. I've mounted the motor and have bench tested it with a fresh 2200 11.1V battery, 10X6 folder prop using my eflight watt meter and the motor runs very smooth. No vibration could be felt, however I was only getting 147 watts at 15 amps WOT. I'm hoping a 11x8 prop or possibly larger will be my answer to the low power output. But I question if this could posibly also be impart due to the mixing the two motor parts??

[mred]

Originally Posted by Chappy

And my Vista modifications continue..

Recently I dumb thumbed my Funtana which was running the same KD motor as I am having problems with in my Vista. So I decided to do some parts swaping to make one good motor from two that both had different problems. The Funtan's motor shaft was bent so I pulled that rotor and replaced the shaft in it and put that rotor on the Vista's motor windings since the Vistas rotor was out of round. It seems to run smoothly in the hand so I planned to use it. I was wondering what the advantages might be that would cause the manufacturer to opt to extend the motor shaft out of the rear (wire end) instead of the forward (rotor/bell) end?? It seem reasonable to conclude that due to the long (37mm) rotor combined with 10 -12mm of shaft extending out from that and a prop attached to the end of it might tend to exaggerate any imperfection in any of the three componets. So I decided to modify the placement of the Vista's motor mount. I made a new mounting plate like Mred shows having done in post #86 above and carefully sanded it to fit snug and flush with the nose. I cut out the previous plywood mount and had to cut away part of the 2nd former directly behind it to make room to incert the motor backwards into the narrow nose channel. As the channel in the nose was rectangular in shape I turned the motor so that the wires were in a lower corner, away from the spinning rotor, and drilled the mounting holes accordingly. I've mounted the motor and have bench tested it with a fresh 2200 11.1V battery, 10X6 folder prop using my eflight watt meter and the motor runs very smooth. No vibration could be felt, however I was only getting 147 watts at 15 amps WOT. I'm hoping a 11x8 prop or possibly larger will be my answer to the low power output. But I question if this could posibly also be impart due to the mixing the two motor parts??

It may be that's the problem, but I don't think so. I have changed parts around on mine and never had that kind of problem crop up. I don't know why yours is only running at 15 amps, but I would start looking at the battery and connections. You may have a problem with current getting to the motor. Mine draws right at 20 amps on a fresh change and a 10X6 folding prop. Do you have your end point adjustment set at 100% ? You could, try moving that up above 100% and see what that does for you. If you know a friend that has a watt meter, try his once and see if it reads the same. Your meter could be off..... As for the shaft going out the other end of the motor, they have a prop adapter that goes on that end for mounting the prop and you don't need the shaft for that. Also, make sure you have something holding the wires off the motor so they don't rub while flying and chaff the wires. I would check the motor after a good run of about a min to see if the motor is still cool. I don't like that reading you are getting and going to an 11X8 will normally over load that motor. If you have a tach, give me a reading and I'll check mine against yours and see if you are close on the rpm.

Ed

[cbatters]

Make sure prop is not mounted backwards. If prop is mounted backwards it will not be efficient and will not draw full power.

[Chappy]

Good point mred. Throttle end point adjustment is something I didn't consider. I'll take it up and see what kind of difference that will make. Odd I didn't consider the throttle because I did make sure the ESC was programed to the throttle hight point. I did add a skin of shrink tube over the motor wires before installing the motor and hot glued them at the other end to keep them down and away from the motor. Just want to mention mred, that we are running two different motors. You have the KD A20-22L hacker style while mine is the plain gold and black KD A22-20L. Some difference, not much, but I think you have the better of the two where quality is concerned.

[Chappy]

Raising the throttle end point didn't effect things as much as I had hopped. Since my folding props are limited to 10x6's for the time being I thought I'd do a check with an APC 11x7 I had on hand. I chicken'ed out when I went to WOT and saw 26+amps! I eased backed into it, somewhere btwn 3/4 and full with 23a and 247 watts! Seems the motor needs that extra inch of prop to reach it's potential. I need to get a 11x6 folder and set my throttle points back down to the 100% range and give it another test run.

[mred]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Good point mred. Throttle end point adjustment is something I didn't consider. I'll take it up and see what kind of difference that will make. Odd I didn't consider the throttle because I did make sure the ESC was programed to the throttle hight point. I did add a skin of shrink tube over the motor wires before installing the motor and hot glued them at the other end to keep them down and away from the motor. Just want to mention mred, that we are running two different motors. You have the KD A20-22L hacker style while mine is the plain gold and black KD A22-20L. Some difference, not much, but I think you have the better of the two where quality is concerned.

Not really. I have the same motor you have, the good old black bell model. I can run an 11X6 folding prop and it draws around 23 amps, but the thrust is not really any different then the 10X6 prop. I am drawing right at 20 amps with that one and thinking of trying a 9X6 just for kicks. The APC 9X6 gives the most thrust, but I don't have any data for the folding props yet. I was going to try it just to see what it does. I have my end point adjustments set at 100% on the transmitter so it goes full throttle and gets around 20 amps with the 10X6 folding prop.

I don't know why your amp draw is so low. Try getting an RPM reading and see what it says along with the watt meter reading. I'll do mine today and post it so you can see what is going on with mine. I would have done it last night, but it's kind of hard to get a reading in the dark. It doesn't do much for your reading in the house under lights with the interference you get from them either. The only thing I can think of is you are not getting full power out of the motor for some reason. Can't really think of what it may be right now though. The only other thing I can think of is mine is set to high timing on the ESC and that may make a difference. I'll try a lower setting to see if that makes any difference on power going to the motor.

It's kind of hard to put a folding prop on backwards and get it to fold right. It would be rather obvious if it was on backwards. With the curve on the base of the folding props, it only really goes on one way, so it will really stand out if it's on backwards. It's not like an APC prop that can go on either way and not really make any difference in mounting.

Ed

[cbatters]

My bad - forgot it was a folder - impossible to put on backwards.

[mred]

Originally Posted by cbatters

My bad - forgot it was a folder - impossible to put on backwards.

No biggie. I was teasing you more then anything else.........................

Ed