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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 10-13-2010, 06:25 PM   #1
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Default Current State Of Affairs With XPS's Dynamax EDF ?


Absentee ballots are being cast at this time...yet when it comes to replies or answering telephone inquiries about large can motors
or alternatives for the Dynamax...calls to Lil Screamers remain quiet on the Northwestern Front. Anyone know if L.S. pulled up their
tent pegs after the recent test issues failed?


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Old 10-13-2010, 06:55 PM   #2
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XPS is now using a Hacker motor core for their Dynamax conversions. The LS motor couldn't hang. Is that what you're talking about?

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Old 10-13-2010, 07:08 PM   #3
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Default Large Can Motor

Originally Posted by crxmanpat View Post
XPS is now using a Hacker motor core for their Dynamax conversions. The LS motor couldn't hang. Is that
what you're talking about?
Its been a while since Scott B. at XPS and I spoke about their replacement for the gold case large can motor they originally purchased
from L.S. and married to the Dynamax. That marriage yielded excellent performance outside of its lack of continuity...literally :-) There
are two XPS/Dynamax offerings...if not more...

From the near term "blast" of less-than-resolved issues posted in RCG~RCU relative to test results that were less than satisfactory and
lead to second tier issues with the manufacturer/s...its been difficult to translate what is going on.




My personal needs are for the 12S+ large can powered Dynamax...as is the case with anyone with duration issues..not necessarily out
to pass the speed of light.




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Old 10-18-2010, 11:51 PM   #4
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XPS will have their replacement for the Big Extreme toward the end of Oct. Saw the prototype fly a 28 lb Yellow F-15 of 12S. Flew very well.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:07 AM   #5
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Bruff,

Given you live in AZ I assume you were watching Jim's F-15. Are you absolutely sure it had the new large can motor in it? Not being
a doubting Thomas... Simply aware Jim's had the LS big can motor in it previously. I see you work for Boeing. The nacelle set-up
I showed above is the bottom up view of the inboard nacelle for our two B-47's.

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Old 10-19-2010, 12:36 AM   #6
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Ed,

Bob and I know Jim and Scott very well. They have the new motor in the F-15. They took out the LS motor months ago.

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Old 10-19-2010, 12:49 AM   #7
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Default Great ! ! ! ! !

Bob & Pat:

This is excellent news amidst flurry of posts and counter post marketing of their competitors! I need the multiple attributes of the large
can motor during my most challenging maneuver...the landing approach.

Yea, I know...that may read strange but understanding B-47's most challenging maneuver...even the model has to perform it perfectly

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Old 12-04-2010, 10:36 PM   #8
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Ok lets clear this up The LS motor could "Hang" just fine The LS owner could not.........

That said, Jim had to remove the LS motor because he needs to show his new motor in demos. To date the LS has NEVER had one fail and there are more than 350 of them out there flying in Dynamax, Byron, and Ramtec conversions.

Since I built these motors I am kinda "sensitive" about the whole deal. Not with Jim and Scott mind you If LS had done things as he was told in dealing with his factory, there would be 1000 or more out there by now. I've seen and handled Jim's new big motor and it is awesome! Will do very well
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:50 PM   #9
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Bob I want to be absolutley clear...you are describing the new Xtreme large can motor in the Dynamax as
being better than LS's motor in the same application...and not the smaller/longer motor...right?

Ed

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Old 12-07-2010, 03:35 AM   #10
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No I didn't say better. It's a replacememnt because LS owners couldn't get it together and deliver. They forced Jim to be in the motor business because the demand was so high for these set ups. Jim made some changes like going to 8 pole rather than 6 poles, and added an extra bearing in the rear just as we did with the second batch. I am hoping to revive the Big motors that LS couldn't deliver and have changed things too. Hope to have something available through USRCjets.com in the near future. Like before spring
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Old 03-01-2011, 01:39 AM   #11
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Bob,

Any news on the replacement for the LS motor for the DM?

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Old 03-19-2011, 08:28 AM   #12
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When you say you dont need to pass the speed of light, I am guessing you dont need crazy power in the fan, so why do you want the "big" motor that pulls lots of amps?

The Scorpion 4035 runs with the Dynamax rotor just fine at 100A and 15lb thrust, and its a lightweight setup, my fan weighs 890 grams with brackets ready to mount. I understand if you need 22lb per fan of course..

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Old 03-19-2011, 06:32 PM   #13
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Default He Said She Said...Where's The Beef????



Originally Posted by ExtremeRC View Post
When you say you dont need to pass the speed of light, I am guessing you dont need crazy power
in the fan, so why do you want the "big" motor that pulls lots of amps?

The Scorpion 4035 runs with the Dynamax rotor just fine at 100A and 15lb thrust, and its a lightweight setup, my fan weighs
890 grams with brackets ready to mount. I understand if you need 22lb per fan of course..
Mark,

After 20+ years of hands-on experience with Tommy's fan and witnessing Stu's and Chris' proof of performance... I arrived at my decision based on
actual performance Vs. the claims Schubeler
made for what he said was a par product. I found only one par example, and it was an extremely short
flight.


Tommy is extremely strict about selling unassembled blade sets. I have not known Tommy to expose himself when product was being incorporated
in a DYI environment. He actually prefers
damaged blade sets be returned for repair...

I do understand a desire to tout your products amidst my discussion of Chris and Jim's product; however claims are not evidence enough.

Evidence trumps words every time. I invite you to post evidence in the form of video with metered performance for a 32# AUW twin flying 10 min.
Though I prefer EagleTree
results for the metering, I will accept a par program to witness results.

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Old 03-19-2011, 09:25 PM   #14
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Default More For Less Or Simply Par For More ? ?

Consider 1.625 x #thrust= AUW of ready to fly model. My B-47's anticipated AUW is 28#~30# sans batteries. I hope to trim
this by five or more pounds as we get further along. FAI does not consider battery weight in the maximum AUW. Knowing the
duration I require, what would you propose as an alternative setup?

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Old 03-22-2011, 12:24 AM   #15
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You said:
My personal needs are for the 12S+ large can powered Dynamax...as is the case with anyone with duration issues..not necessarily out to pass the speed of light.

I said why do you need the big can motor? Maybe you are not up to speed with the XPS big motor setup, a little reading would avoid having to challenge me when there is nothing to challenge Once you do some more research and see the amp draws being quoted with the big motor setups you might realise where I am coming from.

The thread title is "Current State of affairs with Dynamax motors" it doesnt say "discussion of Chris's & Jims products" There happens to be a hell of a lot of motors out there being used with the Dynamax rotor, and there is a new one I am about to test too which could blow away everything, but who knows, I cannot talk about it right now, under orders...

I dont need to prove anything, 6 years of building EDF systems and hundreds of happy forum posters around the world are proof enough that when I test and report on figures they are real.

The Dynamax rotor is the Dynamax rotor, its not going to change much from shroud to shroud, so when I say the DYNAMAX ROTOR with the Scorpion 4035 pushes 15lb thrust on 12 cells at 100 odd amps, thats what it does, and there are many who have run this same combo who can attest to the figures.

I am not trying to sell you anything and quite frankly the condescention in your reply doesnt make me want to try and explain things. I use Hyperion E-meter II which is as good as if not better than Eagletree.


If you want a ratio of 1.625:1 then you only need 19lb thrust for your 30lb model, the scorpion 4035 on 10 cells would likely do this + some, I havent run it on 10s yet but plan to as someone else wants to run it on 10s. I imagine the amp draw would be down to 80 or so, and then 8000mah 12s would likely give you your 10 mins cruising.

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Old 03-22-2011, 01:27 AM   #16
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Default Questions With Answers Yet Witnessed...

My reply is in red within your post below:

Originally Posted by ExtremeRC View Post
You said:
My personal needs are for the 12S+ large can powered Dynamax...as is the case with anyone with duration issues..not
necessarily out to pass the speed of light.

I said why do you need the big can motor? Maybe you are not up to speed with the XPS big motor setup, a little reading
would avoid having to challenge me when there is nothing to challenge Once you do some more research and see the
amp draws being quoted with the big motor setups you might realise where I am coming from.

I am aware of the high amp draw on the big can motor, its less now than with the original. I have video of a twin powering
a 40+ pound F-15 as well as Stan's single powering a 19+ pound F-9F Panther.

The thread title is "Current State of affairs with Dynamax motors" it doesnt say "discussion of Chris's & Jims products"
There happens to be a hell of a lot of motors out there being used with the Dynamax rotor, and there is a new one I am
about to test too which could blow away everything, but who knows, I cannot talk about it right now, under orders...

We do not have any exclusive focus on Chris and Jim's packaging of Tommy's fan. You mis-took my request for visual
evidence your set-up will sustain our competition timeline where in I need a buffer to offset loiter if there are issues
with other competitors not being able to land, We typically have three to four aircraft in the air at the same time...
typically landing in sequence.

I dont need to prove anything, 6 years of building EDF systems and hundreds of happy forum posters around the world
are proof enough that when I test and report on figures they are real.

I need to see an aircraft powered with your setup on 12 cells (You failed to mention Cell# in your original post above)

The Dynamax rotor is the Dynamax rotor, its not going to change much from shroud to shroud, so when I say the
DYNAMAX ROTOR with the Scorpion 4035 pushes 15lb thrust on 12 cells at 100 odd amps, thats what it does, and there
are many who have run this same combo who can attest to the figures.

Like I asked before, send them to me to share their input. Our investment in these two (2) B-47's is rather large... I didn't
accept claims before focusing on the Dynamax with Chris' big can motor and have not stopped...

I am not trying to sell you anything and quite frankly the condescention in your reply doesnt make me want to try and
explain things. I use Hyperion E-meter II which is as good as if not better than Eagletree.

As stated from the beginning of my project over a year ago, we seek to use the best performance products to assure
we achieve our goal. If you take my inquiry as condescending I apologize. Sorry, but we've listened to more claims for
the last year and a-half without much evidence. 90% of electric marketing is designed to empty shelves, not to gain
customers!

If you want a ratio of 1.625:1 then you only need 19lb thrust for your 30lb model, (actual AUW is anticipated to be
40# with batteries) the scorpion 4035 on 10 cells would likely do this + some, I havent run it on 10s yet but plan to
as someone else wants to run it on 10s. (This is why I want to see video of the physical configuration and flight of
same). I imagine the amp draw would be down to 80 or so, and then 8000mah 12s would likely give you your 10 mins
cruising.
Do you understand my flight plan(s)? I posted them in the first section of my thread.

We desire to utilize the new iron annode li-poly which are touted to reduce cell weight by at least 35% at the same
time increasing capacity.

We were looking at 10kv with the big can motor to achieve base line 10 minutes then through throttle management
achieve another 1.5 to 2 minutes.

Reason for using the big can motor is its fly wheel attribute & mid-throttle thrust. Our final approach is extremely long
(250+') with touch down being as close to parallel to runway as possible because of bicycle gear configuration and my
requirement to "drive" it all the way to the runway.

I believe you understand our "need" to see the performance of what we pay for...on an unedited video. Our choice of
motor is not set in stone. However, I have yet to find any other fan to provide the thrust we require.

Please describe your blade to motor attachment...it would appear it has a flange attachment to the shaft...otherwise
you would simply use a double threaded collet.

My project is a Flite-Metal poster child...it has to be capable of providing what is required for my three flight plans to
achieve what is desired.

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:38 AM   #17
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Sorry but I am not going to go out and build a 40 pound model just to prove that two fans that produce an industry accepted AND known 15lb each on the bench will fly it. I have video'd my fans running on the test bench in the past, and will do it with the 5" when time permits.

As I said before not trying to sell you anything, I can understand your feelings about the hype and bull on power output but I am not American nor in the USA and I dont buy into the marketing method of Hyping a non existant product like so many over there seem to do. Good luck with it, sounds like your gonna need it.

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Old 03-22-2011, 03:02 PM   #18
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Default Loaded Examples...

Mark,

Once again Sam and I are accussed of being negative about another EDF than that which we chose at this point in our power
system evaluations. Its not that we have to go far...when presented with "0" evidence of par performance to that which we
have investigated and observed while in a model...flying, approaching, and landing across a time line.

Originally Posted by ExtremeRC View Post
Sorry but I am not going to go out and build a 40 pound model just to prove that two fans that
produce an industry accepted AND known 15lb each on the bench will fly it.

Mark, no one asked you to build a 40 pound anything...your performance example need only be a 19 pound model powered
with your 10S config and full disclosure of the battery, motor, and controller.

You forgot Sam and I both inquired with you over a year ago. After a year I would have expected some examples.

I have video'd my fans running on the test bench in the past, and will do it with the 5" when time permits.

This brings us to why I ask for "in the air" witnessing of capabilities. One need only view the video below to appreciate our
concerns.



YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


As I said before not trying to sell you anything, I can understand your feelings about the hype and bull on power
output but I am not American nor in the USA and I dont buy into the marketing method of Hyping a non existant product
like so many over there seem to do. Good luck with it, sounds like your gonna need it.
I am left at a loss understanding the above paragraph. Since we made our inquiry, obviously we welcomed and invited
your input. A year and a half later we asked again... Wasn't selling us "the" point of your post?

Bring it on! Show Sam and I...the money! Or as Dave Thomas said it best..."Where's The Beef?" All we read is negative
slams of our choice of product based on our observations of product in the air...where is your's? Its not as if we ask any
more of you than we did StuMax, Schubeler, and the other offshore marketers. Nothing has changed.

Aside from the now three domestic, aka USA manufacturers of DF/EDF appropriate for use in our B-47, (Bob Kress passed
3 years ago)...Larry Wolfe, Tommy Cook, and Bob Violett are it. Every other fan we were offered, was manufactured
outside the U.S.A.


Here's your opportunity...again.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:49 PM   #19
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I am not accusing you of being negative because of your choice, I am simply stating that there is so much verifiable data out there on the Dynamax rotor that you seem to be a little close minded to the concept that a Sapac Dynamax for example is making the same thrust at 25K rpm as an XPS Dynamax does at 25K rpm.

LOL mid last year I said I was developing a housing to add to my range that would take the Dynamax rotor, November I had the housings on the way and January I had the modification machining sorted for running either inrunners or the Scorpion outrunner. Hardly a year and a half, but then time does fly in the rc world huh

Here are a couple of pics of the Scorpion being tested, unfortunately I dont have the special cardboard box wind tunnel tester but I cant be far off


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Old 04-11-2011, 12:20 PM   #20
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Default Where's The Beef? Its That Simple

As we have said, "Where's the beef?" Or as we said earlier we would like to view performance, not read someone's
description. Not intending to sound curt or rude...finding myself repeating.

This is simple enough to do if people are buying and using a system. Nothing is more important than customer references
when it comes to who's is bigger, better, best. That target is one of those constantly moving targets. Always someone
coming along designing or packaging this or that a little different...a little better.

Below is the XPS on the ground, and in the air as an example of what we looked for and found with the Dynamax as
packaged by XPS. We also found Stu Maxwell's 110 to also be an excellent choice. In fact, show me the money won as
Keith and Jim's second trip to the well produced an excellent result.

I have used Tommy's fan for nearly 25 years in its recip version. You obviously recognize a benefit in marketing Tommy's
Dynamax with its bigger bite. The magic is in the motor packaged with the proper batteries to yield whatever it is you
require for your project.

YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

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Old 04-19-2011, 01:24 PM   #21
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Mark,

Do you have any in the air examples of your Dynamax blade configuration?

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Old 05-03-2011, 12:11 AM   #22
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=332

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Old 05-04-2011, 02:31 AM   #23
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Default Composite Power System

Yes, and your point is?

Our plan is to use 45C 12s-7200's to gain as much duration as possible. These are nano's to more evenly distribute the discharge.
45C provides a more gentle charge turnaround. Should reduce the standing temperature in nacelles and pylons where our batteries
reside.

Considering capacity continues to rise higher and higher we have the luxury of not having to rush to meet this summers F4C qualifier.
Since deciding it was best to focus on the next F4C cycle...we can relax and gett'er done without a murderous fall dead date. This is
supposed to be fun...and continues to be, sans the rush.

Did you sell your configuration to someone with a 30# twin, yet?


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Old 05-24-2012, 02:28 PM   #24
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I am glad to report the motor situation is on track with Stateside inventory in hand. Scott Bahde
reported last Friday they await machining of CNC'd billet components for new motor then begin to
ship again. International business is more challenging than ever with entitlement withdrawl.

Ed Clayman
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:14 PM   #25
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I suppose there may be third generation XPS Dynamax large can edf out there. The XPS web site makes
reference to a 3rd generation XPS Pro 2 EDF. Reading text I did not discover whether 3rd generation XPS
is the Chinese large can XPS Dynamax EDF or the other set-up.

Has anyone used a "third (3rd) generation" large can XPS to be able to explain what you found different
from your original XPS large can EDF, the 2nd generation XPS Pro 2 Dynamax, and now a 3rd generation
XPS Dynamax large can EDF setup?

This is to ask not what the text on the web site told you or any conversation about what the difference
was, what were your personal findings when you swapped 3rd Generation Large Can XPS Dynamax EDF
in your whatever?

:^D

Ed Clayman
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