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Batteries & Chargers Discuss Li-P, Li-Ion, NiMh, Nicad battery technology and the chargers that juice 'em up!

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Old 11-25-2012, 09:27 PM   #1
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Default Electrifly charger, batteries

Hi All,

So I read here about how bad electrifly chargers are.
Now, I meausured between taps 1&2, 2&3 and 3&4 for all three of my 3S batteries.
They all measure 3.2V or higher, and for each battery the measurements are very close:
Battery 1: 3.26, 3.21, 3.23
Battery 2: 3.87, 3.77, 3.73
Battery 3: 3.85, 3.82, 3.82

The batteries have only gone through about three cycles each.

Yet, my electrifly charger (model GPMM3319) shows the blinking pattern indicating "error" when I attempt to charge any of them.
So just verifying (correct me if I'm wrong): My batteries are fine, but my charger is wothless junk. Correct?
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:55 PM   #2
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How old is the pack? I think the charger is fine perhaps the battery. :0)

Not all chargers are calibrated well and certainly that is a fairly simple one. If you stick with the hobby it won't serve you well.

Mike
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:04 PM   #3
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I've had the ICharger 206B + 350W PS for almost 2 years and have not had a glitch yet. There are bigger, badder and better chargers out there depending on how much you can afford.

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Old 11-26-2012, 09:58 AM   #4
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The batteries (all three of them) are less than 2 months old and worked fine when I got them. Like I said, I've only gone through three cycles with each and the individual cell voltagess are OK (according to another post on this site) so I don't see how it could be the batteries.

I just thought it was ludicrous that a charger could go bad after so few usages, so I thought I must be missing something - but I guess that some manufacturers have the nerve to sell absolute cr*p.

My SuperTigre 400 brushless motor also died after several flights. Got a new one and it seems OK for now. I didn't want to take a chance with the original SupretTigre 20A ESC (heard that a bad motor can kill the ESC), so I also upgraded to a 30A SuperTigre ESC.

My son and I love flying the NexStar EP Mini, but it seems to me that anyone engaging in this hobby is expected to replace major electrical components on a regular basis (every few flights) - that gets expensive. Now, I expected gluing up shattered balsa and monkoting, but I didn't expect the never-ending buying of electronic components.

Having finished my rant, I will say that when the plane does fly, we enjoy it immensely - but we definitely spend a much a higher than expected ratio of maintenance-to-flying (more than an F-15!).
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by nuteman View Post
The batteries (all three of them) are less than 2 months old and worked fine when I got them. Like I said, I've only gone through three cycles with each and the individual cell voltagess are OK (according to another post on this site) so I don't see how it could be the batteries.
The reason I go down the battery path is a super simple one. Chargers are pretty consistent once calibrated. Batteries can go bad in 3 cycles.

But the charger you have is cheap and won't serve you well for the hobby so it would not be a bad idea to get something better.

Mike
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:33 PM   #6
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Those are resting charges long after you finished flying....right?
Battery 1 got WAY too low, probably below 3v at the time. It has bounced back (normal) but shows it was too low.
Bat. 2 & 3 are where you want them after flying.
If you've been flying them to LVC they may be well down the path to wrecked.

The SuperTigre 20A ESC uses this for LVC:
LVC = battery voltage x 0.67

If you start with a FRESH, CHARGED battery:
12.6 x 0.67 = 8.4v. (NEVER should get below 3v/cell).
If you fly to this kind of LVC > THIS IS LIPO DESTRUCTIVE!!!
If you start with lower voltage....it's WORSE.
Yes, there are brand name electronics that are junk. Electrifly and GWS ESC are similar. Like a lot of companies, some of their stuff is great, some good, some not so hot, and some should be avoided completely.
The SuperTigre and Electrifly use the same 0.67 x battery voltage for LVC so I suspect they are the essentially the same ESC. The 30A SuperTigre gives you more overhead but suffers from the same critical defect. It is NOT an improvement.
You CAN use it, just don't fly to LVC. come down with at LEAST 3.5v/cell in the battery.

Your charger is bottom rung....cr*p as you say. MOST of the electrics in common starting trainers are exactly that...bottom rung. Pretty much everything, motor, ESC, servos, TX, RX, charger...the works. The NexSTAR is certainly a step up from that but cost corners are still cut. Realistically if you wanted a top notch trainer with decent equipment going forward you need to spend maybe $500-600. You'd also need an instructor and buddy box to keep from ruining it immediately.

IMO that charger is not worth keeping even if it does work.
I don't have any experience with those batteries but you certainly can ruin a lipo with only a few excessive discharge cycles.

Unfortunately there is a steep learning curve on the electrics in this sport.
Learning to fly is easy, the ELECTRICS are hard.

(Note-If a new flyer got a plane needing a lot of assembly, a computer TX, AND one of the better chargers needing programming they had better have help or they would rapidly be overwhelmed by the equipment. So, RTF trainer stuff attempts to be simple and generally is cheap. Obviously this comes at a different cost)

The trainers are merely an entry point. Decent stuff costs WAY more. Learning WHAT decent stuff is takes awhile and a fair amount of reading since there is a HUGE discrepancy about value in sites like this. Most people are cheap, at least until that bites them a few times.

Out of curiosity, how did the motor die?

fly
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:55 AM   #7
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flydiver, Thanks for the detailed info. I've already ordered the Accucell 6 charger.
Just to clarify: Years ago (like over 20 years ago) I used to fly glow-plug, so I'm savvy about controlling the airplane in flight (aerodynamics), balancing the airplane before flight, etc (I only got out of the hobby because I started my private pilot training and couldn't afford the time/money for both - I'm still not sure which is more fun ). My son practiced many, many hours on the simulator before he ever flew the NexStar. Neither of us has ever had anything more than mildly damaging landings (collapsed nose gear, torn off main gear, mild ground loop/cartwheel, etc.), and we've each done at least 15 landings.
But, like you said, this electrics world is a whole new ball of wax.
By the way, I just upped the ESC to 30A to make sure I wouldn't run into the "servos/engine drawing too much current, overheating the ESC" scenario.
Now I know (thanks to you) that if the BEC/LVC kicks in I'm trashing the battery.
So it seems you've confirmed the following:
The cell voltage readings I've provided for Battery 2 & 3 (see original post) prove that those two batteries are still fully functional.
The charger should be able to charge them without showing error indication, so the charger is junk.
Have I got that right?
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:09 AM   #8
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Also, you asked "Out of curiosity, how did the motor die?"
GOOD question. I just found one day that it would stutter back and forth, make noise, and that it was harder to turn by hand. I read here (I think) that the motor could do that if the ESC can't handle the current draw, causing both ESC and motor to fry. I did the test described here (with the hand drill) and one of the phase combinations showed about half the resistance as compared to the other two. There was no smoking of either motor or ESC as far as I could tell, and the ESC was a bit hot but certainly not the scalding 230 degrees described in the documentation as thermal cut-off.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by nuteman View Post
I just found one day that it would stutter back and forth, make noise, and that it was harder to turn by hand. I read here (I think) that the motor could do that if the ESC can't handle the current draw, causing both ESC and motor to fry.
Stutter is no indication of ESC issues rather a connection issue or wire break in the motor. 90% of the time it is a poorly attached connector on the ESC or motor side (usually motor side). Sometimes it is a wire break in the motor (very unlikely) and other times it may be the ESC (extremely unlikely).

The symptoms you describe have nothing to do with current handling ability of the ESC.

Originally Posted by nuteman View Post
I did the test described here (with the hand drill) and one of the phase combinations showed about half the resistance as compared to the other two. There was no smoking of either motor or ESC as far as I could tell, and the ESC was a bit hot but certainly not the scalding 230 degrees described in the documentation as thermal cut-off.
Again - connectors is MUCH more likely than a wire break in the motor.

When diagnosing issues - it is always best to start with the most common rather than the least. I think your first ESC was just fine. Much more likely to have been a poor connector solder job.

Mike
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:14 PM   #10
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I agree with everything Mike said. Likely you had some sort of connection problem-bad solder joint in a bullet, or a funky motor wire.
A stuttering motor is a strong indicator of that.
It is also a DEAD SHORT.....and WILL fry the ESC if you continue to try to make it run.
If you still have the motor resolder the bullets and give it a test. A good motor will run immediately. If it doesn't....STOP! and figure out what the problem is.
A bad motor can fry an ESC, a bad ESC won't hurt a motor. Easiest test is to cross match briefly and see what works.

Next- the ability to handle servos is NOT based on the 30A capability. That's for the motor. Inside the ESC there is a BEC (battery eliminator circuit) that handles that. It feeds power to the servos. Yours is 2A. You have 4 mini servos. It's probably a LINEAR BEC (uses resistance to pull the 12.6v battery power down to 5v required for the servos) so tends to get warm. The warmth you felt 'may' have been normal.
I'd call that the limit of it's capability. Some would call it too much. It's a judgement call.
Better ESC, generally at least 30-40A, may have a SWITCHED BEC (electronic) that is more efficient. An ESC with a 3A switched BEC would be much better for that plane, instead of a 2A linear BEC.
Remember the Receiver battery pack you used to use in Nitro? The BEC replaces that using the main battery. Some people disable the on-board BEC and continue to use an RX battery for better reliability, especially in larger planes that can handle the weight and have a mess of servos or components to run.

Last-YES! that charger should charge a battery that shows above 3v in all cells. I believe it has failed.
The AC-6 is a decent unit....once you figure out how to run it. I have one and use it frequently. There are LOTS of videos on youtube on how to operated it. Google some up and watch. You'll be glad you did. It's not terrible, but it's not simple either.

fly
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:31 PM   #11
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Default I can't beleive these clowns

rcers and flydiver:
Thanks again for the info. You guys were right on the money. I looked at the burnt motor for curiosity. The manufacturers are clowns. They mashed up the three phase leads such that they were up against the rotating "case" of the motor. When I removed the plastic sleeve that cinches the three leads together I found thin, frayed, exposed wires. I don't have any solder and the inner thin wires (goldish color) are probably coated with something to prevent shorting in the windings of the motor. I don't think I have the patience for it right now anyway, and I've got the new motor. Maybe when I get some time I'll attempt a repair, but I have the feeling it's not worth risking frying an ESC (as flydiver indicated that a bad motor CAN fry an ESC). The new motor has the leads well clear of the casing (I guess they finally learned something).
I do intend to put in a couple hundred more bucks into this over the next few months, but I suspect I won't be able to keep that rate of investment going much longer than that - especially considering how little flying time you get for that rate of investment. When you divide the cost by flying time it's appalling - a significant percentage of the cost of renting a Cessna 152 (so far, at least) - so it better improve
When I was in this hobby 20 years ago I realized the same thing and a light bulb lit up in my head: "Hey, for what this is costing me, I could be a significant way towards my private pilot's license!" - which is exactly what I did.
I thought (naively, perhaps) that with the advent of reasonably powerful and light electric motors and batteries, the whole process would be considerably less costly and maintenance intensive. And my son really wanted to do it (he's only 13, so when he gets older he can use his side-job money to pursue a private or recreational pilot's license, but I certainly can't afford to pay for it now).
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:51 PM   #12
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RC is fantastically cheap. FAR cheaper than full scale - I left that many years ago due to cost.

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Old 11-27-2012, 07:45 PM   #13
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Ah, rotating case frayed the wires. Those may or may not be extensions of the winding wires. The wires that wind the motor have an insulating coating.
Some manufacturers extent the wires out and solder directly to them Others solder on 'normal' wire extensions. Poke around and you may be able to see, or not see, a connection.

Once you get a good charger and TX, along with a supply of basic parts the cost falls way off. But, it's bit of a hump to get there. Plane purchases or replacements are at your own discretion and part of the hobby. You can make planes for dirt cheap out of foam, buy them for a modest price, or go all out and dump LOTS of $$ into it. Your wallet, your choice.
BUT, you DO need that decent TX and charger to start.

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:03 PM   #14
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Yes, I suppose the costs do fall off once you get the right equipment.
My TX is the Tactic TTX404. I haven't had a single glitch with it. No interference, instant response. Have I just been lucky so far???
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by nuteman View Post
Yes, I suppose the costs do fall off once you get the right equipment.
My TX is the Tactic TTX404. I haven't had a single glitch with it. No interference, instant response. Have I just been lucky so far???
It' probably fine. It's drawback is that it's a 'basic' no-frills TX that is not mainstream. No computer features, no model memory, maybe harder to get RX and support. I'm not familiar with it.
I'd say the equivalent more common TX is a Spektrum DX5e-fine for a first model, not sufficient for progressing through the sport.

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Old 12-10-2012, 12:40 PM   #16
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Default Update

Just thought I'd update you all with my findings.
First, the electrifly charger (model GPMM3319) was the culprit for the charging issue. All three of my batteries charged fine with the Accucell 6 (thanks for advising to watch the youtube video on its usage).
Second, the motor with the frayed wires was fairly easily repaired and runs just fine now, even with my old ESC - so I essentially have both a backup ESC and backup motor now. I've set up the motor so that the leads are well clear of the rotating case. It's just a little frustrating that I had to think of that and the manufacturer didn't.

Anyway, my son and I flew the plane yesterday and did some aerobatics (simple loops and rolls) and landings. Of course our flights were forced to be no more than eight minutes per battery. So I guess I should buy a couple more batteries. I'm also starting to teach my son how to repair the plane with epoxy and charge/test batteries, etc. He's got to know that there's a lot of time invested for each trip out to the field
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by nuteman View Post
He's got to know that there's a lot of time invested for each trip out to the field
That does get better. I used to come home with no props (all broken), damaged plane, and batteries still charged as I didn't get to use them. Now most of my damage is 'self inflicted' by full contact combat, but it sure is fun.

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Old 11-18-2013, 01:31 PM   #18
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Another update for y'all.
My son and I have progressed to building/flying our own foamy designs including canard, mirage-2000-like delta, constant chord flying wing, biplane, twin boom pusher, etc.
Yes, the cost per hour of flight has fallen off dramatically now that we have decent electronic equipment and are using dirt-cheap building materials (gotta love dollartree foam and "pink" Owens-Corning foam).
Here's the current problem: I'm thoroughly addicted precisely because we've discovered the best ways to do this "on the cheap" .
I'm always planning out my next project. If it was a little more time consuming and costly to build these foamies I might spend a little time doing something else for a change.
But, boy it sure is fun
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:49 PM   #19
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Glad you got all sorted .. and to be honest - you have been unlucky in having to spend out so much money ...

Now that you are sorted - I hope you enjoy a more budget conscious hobby !! But be careful .. this is only a part of my hangar a year go (dec 2012) .. I have quite a few more added to it now ..



I have 3 radios with full memories and another Tx on the way !

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Old 11-18-2013, 04:02 PM   #20
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Wow, your aircraft are pristine!
Mine are total "beaters". At this stage I'm disinterested in aesthetics and concerned only with function and practicality. Trying out various designs (and tweaking them) and getting a different flight experience from each is what really drives me in the hobby at this point. I also enjoy taking elements of various existing builds and putting them together to result in a new creation with very different flight characteristics. I've re-used my first foam wing in at least 3 very different airplanes by now (conventional tractor, canard and biplane). I also enjoy designing/building from scratch (like my Mirage-style delta that does awesome high alpha). Just buying someone else's design is not very rewarding for me.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by nuteman View Post
Wow, your aircraft are pristine!
Mine are total "beaters". At this stage I'm disinterested in aesthetics and concerned only with function and practicality. Trying out various designs (and tweaking them) and getting a different flight experience from each is what really drives me in the hobby at this point. I also enjoy taking elements of various existing builds and putting them together to result in a new creation with very different flight characteristics. I've re-used my first foam wing in at least 3 very different airplanes by now (conventional tractor, canard and biplane). I also enjoy designing/building from scratch (like my Mirage-style delta that does awesome high alpha). Just buying someone else's design is not very rewarding for me.
Believe me there are some 'beaters' in there ...

I'm the local dustbin for crashed / smashed models. People give me models that usually would be binned. I look, cut, scrape, scarf, fill .. repair and put back in the air.
I have models that are collections of bits and pieces ..

I scratchbuild .. with and without plans.

I'm not overly concerned about looks on the ground - as long as they fly / look reasonable in the air.

The camera fools you into thinking they are pristine ! Search out my name on here and you'll see plenty threads of my rebuilds of many what you see in that photo and others not there.

Nigel

222kph PKJ,EDF Concorde, Mini4,Mig3,T45,PKJ twin,ME109,Edge540,Cessna182,Skymaster Biplane,F15,F16,Badius,Ultimate,SE5,Qbee10,450 Heli,V911,J3 Cub Founder 9x forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flysky_RC_radio/
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