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Old 12-20-2012, 12:30 AM   #1
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Default Delta Blimp Idea

Hello All,

It's a long story but I'm here because of some research I'm involved in. An internet search got me here. I have an idea that's been in my brain for over a year and I would like to open a discussion on it. My research somehow found the Black Triangle thread in the Humor Forum and CHELLIE's post. For some background perhaps you could look at the thread then afterwards maybe we could then pick it up here

I'm new here so be patient.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:53 AM   #2
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Hello All,

This is the concept for the main drive:



This photo is only to illustrate the idea. My mental image is to apply the ducted fan to a black triangular design fo a blimp. A year ago I picked up a small Blade hilo to study the idea. I would like some feedback on externally ducting the project like in the photo or internally ducting like I've been dreaming about. I've never built anything in the way of rc stuff but in the 1950's my father built and flew the old balsa models. Gas engines, wooden propellers and control wires as rc was not around then that I know of.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:56 AM   #3
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here is some neet info

http://www.theparacast.com/forum/for...gles-forum.15/

http://black-triangles.blogspot.com/...dod-blimp.html

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:11 AM   #4
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I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:12 AM   #5
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I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:22 AM   #6
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I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:28 AM   #7
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I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:10 PM   #8
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The photo posted in the second post looks like the Avro Car. Neat looking machine.

I've always tossed around the idea of the Focke Wulf vtol, although it would be complex and difficult to build reasonably scale. The small thrust outlets would probably have to be small pusher props, and who knows if it could ever transition and control reasonably with the ailerons. Always liked the look of the craft itself though:
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:45 AM   #9
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Hello All,

Really great links. Generally I see various design ideas incorporating my Blade cx2's concept. Counter-prop engineering. That concept is fine but what I also see is that the prop uses brute strength for lift. The delta blimp will not. The counter-prop design I've had in mind is completely internal with no exposed machinery at all- just vents along the edges. If I have the where-with-all I'll sketch it out, scan it, and post the configuration I'm trying to convey. I envision no visible moving parts, a quiet operational noise level, and by not having an open duct design better control over the altitude. Motor(s) will be for mostly horizontal vectoring. Thanks a mil for the links though, some of the motor designs are encouraging.
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:32 PM   #10
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Will someone please tell me is I've finally found a home LOL. You wouldn't BELIEVE what it's like out there although some of you just might. A somewhat centrally located horizontal fan pressurizing air to ductsthat run internally to thrust ports aft as well as either side of the nose section to aid steering is what I've been discussing. You folks think and imagine so I thought (and hope) I could present this for more in-depth discussions involving the engineering to make this puppy fly

The fan would be a counder rotating system to reduce torque with the blades aiding in perhaps a gyro stabilization of sorts. Two exhaust ports widely space at the aft corners of the triangular body for altering direction assisted by the smaller exhaust ports port and starboard of the cockpit area. That's the basic idea I'm trying to convey. In other words, nothing extraneous outside the body to catch any extraneous wind forces.

Looking for any input regarding design issues or even feasibility on this, my first post

Thanks hiflier
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Neat stuff. It gets me thinking that the Focke Wulf Vtol may actually be possible in some sort of scale fashion some day:
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:51 PM   #12
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I've located a local source for 1/8th inch matt board but a mylar skin might make more sense. Depends on the look I'm after as well as the weight considerations. I now have an internet source for a counter rotating blade/motor system that will produce about 4 lbs of thrust. next will be securing mylar sheeting of course eve if it's not for the exterior. It's for making the custom ballonet(s). I have a source already for the better high grade helium that welders use.

Expensive? Yep. I see throwing about $200 or more at this and that's only if I don't blow it by loosing all the helium because of a leak in the shakedown cruise. Air testing will be job one Hope to get going on the shell and ducting in the next three weeks. I think hanging the components from a spring scale will nail down the weight parameters before making the ballonets. Could mean a change in height from 1 foot to something more. As it is the volume is only 17.5 cubic @ 1oz. of lift per cu. ft. Might like to get that to around 24 cu. ft. or better. Rounding the nose to expand the width will also increase volume.
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Old 12-22-2014, 09:00 PM   #13
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Hello BillG,

Yep, that would be cool. HOPEFULLY, my craft won't need brute strength to get off the ground LOL. If anything I want to incorporate some kind of venting in the floor under the fan system to bleed off the lift if desired due to the Coanda effect.

If the floor there has a deployable disc then the pressurized chamber should disperse the air horizontally 360 degrees and maybe cancel or diminish the amount of lift. Either that or go a bit heavier than pure gas buoyancy to compensate. I can always take my hand off the danged stick too
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Old 12-22-2014, 09:17 PM   #14
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This brings me back to my thread ages ago about a possible Verticraft ... combining a fixed wing craft with a quad.

It's funny because about the time I was posting and asking ideas .. pop-ups started appearing on RCG for a vertical lift and transition model ...

I still want to explore the idea ... and I still say there is no need for tilting props etc.



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Old 12-22-2014, 09:31 PM   #15
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About the need for tilting props or thrust, I believe it's almost a necessity for a successful design. I think using separate lift and thrust power systems adds excessive weight. I guess on an RC model it's not all that important as long as you can get it to work, but looking at full scale planes, it seems the thrust vectoring has been the most successful, as in the Harrier and V-22. There have been some good attempts, like the Fairey Rotodyne, but even as good as it was, it didn't last. (Although wasn't it actually the noise from the rockets driving the main rotor that killed it?) For full scale, if you can't carry a payload, then it's not very useful.
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Old 12-22-2014, 10:11 PM   #16
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Full scale the baby I'm talking about could have a small payload of about 6 tons. As long as it doesn't RAIN! That's taking into account a 300x200 delta shape about 20 ft in height. Not small by any stretch. This model is about a 1/40th scale and instead of a possible 80mph speed for it's big brother I don't expect mote that 2-4mph for one this size.

So. Mylar skin-on-frame or thin foam core? Either way there will be a custom fabricated, nearly full sized, interior bag for the lift gas. The way I see it locating the central air drive for balance needs to happen once the gas is inside the craft to see just where to position it. The reason for that is I'm pretty sure the aft end will want to rise ahead of the bow. Setting the drive and battery on the top surface at that point may be best although it would seem that I need to locate the balance point before the gas goes in order to even properly locate the through point in the ballonet?

Which way to go, which way to go (drums fingers on table).
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Old 12-22-2014, 11:03 PM   #17
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BTW, some of you may notice that my post #9 was TWO YEARS ago! A lot has happened since then. I'm now fully retired and free to attack this project as time allows. You also may be somewhat taken aback that during the interim I have not somehow quite come to my senses In either case I look forward to not only engaging the community but also to documenting the build to upload here. The feasibility of such a project was something in which I had no doubts at all and now that hopefully time is on my side the opportunity to see how many times I can fail is now upon me.

Should be fun on many levels!
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Old 12-22-2014, 11:49 PM   #18
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There have been some quite spectacular 'helium assist' planes.
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

But If you are thinking 2 to 4 mph you will really have to fly indoors - like this full size Vauxhall Astra.
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

My guess is rather than deflect thrust it would be much easier to use several individual fans to control roll, pitch and yaw.
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Old 12-23-2014, 12:08 AM   #19
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Hey, thanks for the nice vids. I always enjoy seeing what others have done. I've thought about several fans as perhaps one in each duct and just using a center port for make up air drawn in equally from above as well as below. Using several fans elsewhere would take up valuable lift gas space IMO. And I'm not good enough, and maybe never will be, to set up the controls for a bunch of fans. Of course, it may not be any more difficult than trying to control a runaway lift problem. Not to mention remotely opening and closing the different thrust ports with some kind of linkage.

In a simple design I kind of see a port side aft thruster operating with starboard side nose thruster and visa versa for turns while running a lower fan rpm. I've also been wondering, since there's no real downward thrust like in a helo how much the effect of drawing air in from above the craft only would have? I know one thing that can disappear and that would be the ground effect one experiences when helos first take off.

We don't have to talk about what happens at the ceiling when one is inexperienced okay?
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Old 12-23-2014, 12:26 AM   #20
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Just a point but if you bought yourself a small cheap quadcopter you would have 4 motors and props along with all the necessary control gear for roll, pitch and yaw already built in. With say 90% helium lift the small props could control quite a big blimp - indoors.
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Old 12-23-2014, 01:14 AM   #21
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Awww. That would mean over two plus years of brain power out the window. Just kidding of course. I won't say no to a quad as long as I can figure a way to internalize the gear. The point being my mind sees no external protrusions for the purpose of having the craft look as if it IS an anti-gravity device, just suspended in mid air, even though it isn't........and to mask most of the sound. Looking and sounding stealthy is the impression I'm trying for. It's kinda what the design is all about.

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Old 12-23-2014, 08:22 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
Just a point but if you bought yourself a small cheap quadcopter you would have 4 motors and props along with all the necessary control gear for roll, pitch and yaw already built in. With say 90% helium lift the small props could control quite a big blimp - indoors.
Exactly my point earlier and in my thread before. OK - here we add in Helium for a Blimp ...

Given the amount a large quad / multi-rotor can lift .. all that's needed for horizontal is a small conventional prop .... (my idea to keep platform strictly horizontal, unlike normal multi that whole model tilts by way of differential thrust ...).

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Old 12-23-2014, 04:10 PM   #23
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OK, woke up today with the solution to balancing gas with the placement of the propulsion system. Kinda adds value to the term "I'll sleep on it". Fill the custom bag inside the shell with helium with ducting materials also on board as if it wasn't going to have propulsion. Set the motor system on the top surface on a stringed center line and move forwards or aftwards while the craft is floating. Mark the balance point. Remove the top, empty the gas (sigh) into a holding bag, cut the hole through the top surface as well as through the deflated bag. Reseal the bag around the hole and begin the install.

Fine tuning flight attitude can be accomplished by installing horizontal center pivoting exhaust flaps that also act as hatches closing off the either rear exhaust for steering. By angling the hatches to a flat position horizontal flight should result. Angled up or down then should aid in directing the stern up or down for minor altitude changes. I can easily visualize this set up.

Determining the size of the exhaust ports to match the thrust pressure of the motor and blades I think will have some leeway. It all comes down to sizing them in such a way that there should be a little air coming through all four thrusters, front and back, when the throttle is about 3/4 open.

Trial and error should determine how not to burn out a motor LOL. Too much pressure/rpms into a plenum whose ducts are all closed probably wouldn't be good, eh? I can't see that ever happening as log as the throttle is off or linkages don't malfunction.

Question: could I rig up swash plate linkages from say a Blade 5-in-one to control the volume of air going to the exhaust ports via rotating hatch covers? or maybe covers over holes cut into the plenum at the beginning of each duct run? There go my rudders LOL.
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Old 12-23-2014, 07:19 PM   #24
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In thinking futher along the 5-in-1 idea I'm inclined to think it would work. A dual linkage arm mechanism could open one rear port and at the same time open a front side port on the opposing side for turning the airship. The front port(s) could be a hatch that is hinged on the nose side of the port and open in a way that directs airflow back at greater than 90 degrees in relation to the direction of travel with the complementary aft port fully open. Air seeks the least resistance so I imagine most of the flow will be at the rear of the craft.

Not ideal for sharp turns except perhaps when moving very slowly of from a hovering position. This configuration would allow for my current helo transmitter and receiver to not need upgrading? Late if everything looks to be engineered correctly and I get more experience then separating the thrusters to operate more individually might be the best solution.

Sorry, just thinking out loud here in an effort to organize my thoughts as an overview of how things might operate. In retrospect upgrading the electronics may be unavoidable due to motor/battery requirements that could fry the 5-in-1. Initially though using my current helo's drive and electronics might give me some much needed answers. I think I'm much closer though than when I started this thread.

I thank those that have contributed valuable ideas and opinions so far. You're a great help.
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Old 12-24-2014, 02:43 AM   #25
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Controlling these things could be interesting. The heli swash plate could definitely be a useable part. This thread got me thinking about controlling the FW subject. I came down to using the throttle for lift/altitude, where the elevator/ailerons would simply be mixed with the rudder for turning, while providing compensating elevator for loss of altitude on turns. The bottom louvered door would likely just stay open for full upward thrust. The exhaust propulsion would probably be operated from the ail/elev stick, using it only for forward motion and turns. The exhaust ports would probably be motors with tiny counter rotating props mixed with the right hand ail/elev stick on Mode 2. Controlling and mixes would be interesting, and not scale in function.
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