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Old 12-22-2012, 02:21 AM   #1
p3arljam
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Default Scale flying with warbirds

I was just wondering do most of you use rudder in your turns or aileron and elevator only?
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:31 AM   #2
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I usually add some rudder. Looks better to me.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:57 AM   #3
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Depends on the plane. But usually just Aileron and Elevator mostly due to being a tad lazy.

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Old 12-22-2012, 03:58 AM   #4
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i have a couple of FMS warbirds...P-51 & T-28. they pretty much turn on a dime with just the ailerons. i always forget about the rudder
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:24 PM   #5
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The rudder just for landing, in flight it causes too much drag.

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Old 12-22-2012, 08:26 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by DetroitHawk View Post
The rudder just for landing, in flight it causes too much drag.
Errr... nope.. the absolute opposite is true. Using rudder properly in turns helps keep the turn coordinated (i.e no skidding or slipping through the turn). This is key to minimising drag.

If you ever fly a full size sailplane you will see a piece of string taped to the canopy. This is called a 'yaw string' and is used to make sure the sailplane is properly coordinated in turns. In a turn you constantly balance aileron and rudder to keep the the string centred and therefore drag minimised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_flight

Of course for most powered sports RC models no one really gives a fig about drag reduction, so 'bank and yank' works ok. Personally though if the plane has a rudder I do tend to use it though this is a recent habit picked up only since i started flying 3D.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:03 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Errr... nope.. the absolute opposite is true. Using rudder properly in turns helps keep the turn coordinated (i.e no skidding or slipping through the turn). This is key to minimising drag.
.
DERP, i was answering a question; not asking your opinion about flying sail planes in relation to how i fly my warbirds. K/thanks

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Old 12-23-2012, 08:14 PM   #8
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Hi
Yes indeed i do use the rudder
Take care
Yours Hank


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Old 12-23-2012, 08:33 PM   #9
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....if its got a servo, I use it.... makes some flights look better and ""expert-like"" lol I didn't use it as much when I was a learning because I was more worried about not hitting ground! I use it most of the time now and I don't think its intent is only for landings.

best of flying 'jam

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Old 12-23-2012, 10:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DetroitHawk View Post
DERP, i was answering a question; not asking your opinion about flying sail planes in relation to how i fly my warbirds. K/thanks
Lets stick to fact and avoid insults.
Using the rudder to coordinate turns does not increase drag, done properly it reduces drag on ANY plane (not just sailplanes). This is not my opinion but fact, as you will find for yourself if you take the time to look into it.

You can fly however you want, rudder or no, doesn't bother me one way or another, but if you make a statement that is factually incorrect don't get your panties in a wad when someone points out the error.


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Old 12-24-2012, 01:42 AM   #11
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I'm consciously trying to incorporate rudder into turning - you can definitely do a prettier "looking" turn that way. Main problem I'm having is unintentionally varying the motor speed in the process. Practice, practice, practice...

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Old 12-24-2012, 07:23 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dgjessing View Post
I'm consciously trying to incorporate rudder into turning - you can definitely do a prettier "looking" turn that way. Main problem I'm having is unintentionally varying the motor speed in the process. Practice, practice, practice...
You could tighten up the friction/ratchet on the throttle, this would help prevent unintentional throttle movement. It's usually adjustable with a screw if you open the Tx up.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
You could tighten up the friction/ratchet on the throttle, this would help prevent unintentional throttle movement. It's usually adjustable with a screw if you open the Tx up.
Thanks - I'll have a look at that!

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Old 01-04-2013, 08:45 AM   #14
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You can also mix in a bit of rudder with your ailerons. Not too much. I have done that on a few occasions.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:30 AM   #15
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Default yeah, what steve said.

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Lets stick to fact and avoid insults.
Using the rudder to coordinate turns does not increase drag, done properly it reduces drag on ANY plane (not just sailplanes). This is not my opinion but fact, as you will find for yourself if you take the time to look into it.
I am learning to fly full-size airplanes and I can tell you that rudder is o-so-important to minimize drag and maintain coordinated flight.

I've noticed that on my rc planes it's not as evident, probably because they're way up in the sky where it can be hard to tell if it is slipping or skidding.

But as other readers have noted, in the landing phase it is very helpful to use the rudder to align the plane more precisely and avoid banks when close to the ground.

And who doesn't use rudder on takeoffs? A bit of right rudder is usually necessary to counter-act the prop torque and p-factor. (Also noticable at high AOA's) Not to mention steering down your runway!

Truth be told, I don't use my rudders too much in flight, that's why my flight instructor keeps harrassing me! STAY COORDINATED!

Cheers!
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:37 AM   #16
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Default ooooops... we digress

It looks like we have strayed from your original post into a foray on rudder use. Forgive us!

I have a FMS 1100mm Hellcat that looks great in turns with no rudder at all. Very scale-like turns, as long as you keep the aileron input smooth.

What warbirds are you flying?

--G
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:43 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by yamahafunkplayer View Post
I am learning to fly full-size airplanes and I can tell you that rudder is o-so-important to minimize drag and maintain coordinated flight.

I've noticed that on my rc planes it's not as evident, probably because they're way up in the sky where it can be hard to tell if it is slipping or skidding.

But as other readers have noted, in the landing phase it is very helpful to use the rudder to align the plane more precisely and avoid banks when close to the ground.

And who doesn't use rudder on takeoffs? A bit of right rudder is usually necessary to counter-act the prop torque and p-factor. (Also noticable at high AOA's) Not to mention steering down your runway!

Truth be told, I don't use my rudders too much in flight, that's why my flight instructor keeps harrassing me! STAY COORDINATED!

Cheers!
Try flying a Tiger Moth. You just HAVE to use rudder.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by yamahafunkplayer View Post
It looks like we have strayed from your original post into a foray on rudder use. Forgive us!

I have a FMS 1100mm Hellcat that looks great in turns with no rudder at all. Very scale-like turns, as long as you keep the aileron input smooth.

What warbirds are you flying?

--G
Funny, because to my eye in most aileron elevator turns (no rudder) the plane looks like its slipping through the turn with tail low and nose high, very un-scale-like. It's a fact that real planes use the rudder when they turn so it's basic common sense that to turn like real planes do is going to need rudder... No

It's really only in the last couple of years that I started to notice this slipping in turns, and I've been flying RC for 40 years. I now use rudder much more than I ever used to.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:21 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Funny, because to my eye in most aileron elevator turns (no rudder) the plane looks like its slipping through the turn with tail low and nose high, very un-scale-like. It's a fact that real planes use the rudder when they turn so it's basic common sense that to turn like real planes do is going to need rudder... No

It's really only in the last couple of years that I started to notice this slipping in turns, and I've been flying RC for 40 years. I now use rudder much more than I ever used to.
I agree with you!

Just to be obnoxious, however, I would say that not all airplanes require rudder when turning to stay coordinated. Some can stay coordinated without any rudder at all. The wing design and control surface placement, deflection, area, etc are all factors. For example, the ailerons & flight spoilers on a 737 cause the airplane to bank (and turn) in a coordinated fashion, as it causes no adverse yaw that needs to be corrected with rudder. But most smaller airplanes, especially our kind (RC) still require rudder to counter the adverse yaw caused by the ailerons.

Also, once the airplane is established in a turn, the rudder remains neutral. It is only needed to coordinate the initial aileron input. If you hold rudder in the turn, the result will be a skid with the tail moving towards the outside of the turn and a steepening bank angle (assuming the wing has dihedral). With wings that have no dihedral (like most 3D types), keeping the rudder in will cause a skid, but the bank angle will usually not change much.

In the real airplane, I use aileron and rudder together to enter a turn, and then ailerons to maintain the bank angle and elevator back pressure to keep the pitch attitude and the plane turning. The rudder stays neutral except when rolling wings level again.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:45 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by yamahafunkplayer View Post
Just to be obnoxious, however, I would say that not all airplanes require rudder when turning to stay coordinated. Some can stay coordinated without any rudder at all. The wing design and control surface placement, deflection, area, etc are all factors. For example, the ailerons & flight spoilers on a 737 cause the airplane to bank (and turn) in a coordinated fashion, as it causes no adverse yaw that needs to be corrected with rudder.
Not obnoxious, a good point. I would however class the use of spoilers on airliners to control the plane in yaw just another form of 'rudder'. There is a name for spoilers when used to control yaw: 'drag rudders'. Commonly found on tailless 'flying wing' aircraft that don't have a vertical stabiliser on which to mount a conventional rudder.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:13 PM   #21
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It takes some practise to use rudder in a turn but it does help to reduce drag and smooth out the turn. The thisg is that there is no way to know if you are actualy doing a coordinated turn unless your sitting in the cockpit so I just try to make the turns as smooth as possible.

Mixing rudder with aileron is a lousy way to do it because the rudder needs to be held in the turn a little longer and also the ratio of elevator to rudder changes as you go through the turn.

In any case JetPlaneFlyer is right and anyone who has ever flown real aircraft knows that a coordinated turn generates the least amount of drag and puts the least amount of stress on the airframe and the pilot.

But with model airplanes it doesn't really matter as long as you make the turn without tip stalling or augering in.

The TRUTH is not always what it seems.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:41 PM   #22
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The only feedback we get on how smooth, or coordinated our turns are when flying RC is visual, as others have alluded to, and what we see most obviously is the effect of adverse yaw as a turn is initiated.

For me, some planes, my GWS Corsair for instance, look just fine turning without adding any rudder. On the other hand turns with my GWS Formosa look best if I add a little rudder, although I admit I don't always do so. My AerodromeRC Jenny has enough adverse yaw that it really prefers its turns initiated with rudder, with ailerons added as the coordinating control element and to control the bank angle.

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Old 01-04-2013, 06:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by yamahafunkplayer View Post
...For example, the ailerons & flight spoilers on a 737 cause the airplane to bank (and turn) in a coordinated fashion, as it causes no adverse yaw that needs to be corrected with rudder. But most smaller airplanes, especially our kind (RC) still require rudder to counter the adverse yaw caused by the ailerons....
I beg to differ. While I haven't (yet!) researched the details, as I understand it, the 737 is one of the few swept wing airliners that is not required to have a yaw damper system, as it self dampens dutch roll, apparently unlike this plane, although I think this one had bigger problems but it is classic dutch roll (And why did the Dutch get blamed for this aerodynamic phenomina?):

http://youtu.be/BpOmzjUHVy8

Here's a site that echo's the yaw damper statement I mentioned:

The Boeing 737 Technical Site

I don't believe the 737 doesn't need rudder input to stay in coordinated flight. That site even mentions they still kept the yaw damper for passenger comfort. Maybe that's just for turbulence induced forces, but probably to keep apparent gravity going the right way in turns as well.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:35 PM   #24
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Also, since I'm already on a 'technicality' roll ( Sorry!) , Adverse yaw is not the tendency of a plane to slip through a turn without rudder input. Adverse yaw is when you the ailerons cause the plane to yaw in the opposite direction of the desired turn when the ailerons are applied. In a steady turn, the ailerons should be neutral in most planes, so there shouldn't be adverse yaw at that point. (Many of my models are crooked already... )
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by p3arljam View Post
I was just wondering do most of you use rudder in your turns or aileron and elevator only?
Yes if you want to fly scale then you need to use the rudder as if the full scale would.

just because a pilot's inexperiance may not see it slip, skid in flight doesn't mean it isn't.

If your were flying scale at TOP GUN , you would be seriously down graded.

If you at your park or sport flying then do what ever you want.

OH, don't coordinate those turns on a high wing loaded aircraft , and it will get you eventually..

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