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Hi-Performance and Sailplanes RC hotliners, electric pylon racers, F5B, F5D, sailplanes and gliders

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Old 03-17-2012, 01:31 AM   #51
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One thing I found when I was working and trying to build. Even if I just put in a half hour at night, the plane gets done much faster then if I just sit there looking at it. Now I don't have to worry about it. Since I retired I just pretty much do what ever I feel like doing when I feel like doing it. Makes for a much more pleasant day in the end. I also get my planes built faster some times. I also have a much longer flying season down here. I live in south central Georgia and we get plenty of flying in the winter and I don't have time to get rusty. Summer has some fantastic thermals too, but we get good fling even in the winter around here.

Got a question though. What holds the stabalator on with just two rods run through it? I'm building a Nimbus II right now. That's 126" span and really narrow wings. Talk about a high aspect ratio, this one has it. I have a 3548-800 motor that is going in this one and may put the same motor in the BOT too. I think I just may start on a BOT after I get that one finished. I always did like that BOT. Those Skybench models have that same wing and I think it is just a slightly redesigned BOT, but I could be wrong on that. Overall it pretty much looks like the BOT, just has a couple of changes.

Just in case you are interested, here is a short article on spoilers.
http://www.skybench.com/index.html?h...om/slnost.html
He uses linkage on his instead of like mine, but they both work, so no big deal. Just make sure you have a good tight fit when you make them and cover then top and bottom so they don't warp. I didn't do that when I built it and they warped on me. I took them home, got the warp out and then covered the bottom to stop that. Lesson learned the hard way. After that I found out that was in the instructions and I just missed it. I hope you get that thing up in the air pretty soon. I would love to hear how that thing flies, but then it is a Bird of Time, so it should pretty much float all day, especially on landing.

Ed
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:56 AM   #52
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hi ed,the stabalator is held in place by the piano wires,the rear thicker one is fed thru a brass tube as the pivot point and the thinner wire in the front goes thru the clevis. i have much to learn about trimming this bot out before the maiden. the wires can be left unglued so the stabalator can be removed for transport but the instructions say to glue them into one of the halves or they might get lost. in some ways i'd consider gluing both halves in the permenantly but the thought of repair work made easyer if needed is apealing.

as far as the spoilers go,i haven't designed how i want to make them yet.most likly laminate cross grain 1/16th balsa and aprox 1 1/2"wide by 3 bays long with a simple servo arm activation set up to push up and maybe a rubber band or magnet to be the hold down.i just don't want to rely on wind over the wing only for closing and staying closed.


gotta say about the retirement thing,i know how you feel what with haaving time to build....i had a heart attach in 04,then down time from carpentry in nyc in 08&09. my wife always want me busy building,and after open heart surgery in oct of 09 i could build a sig hog bipe slowly in 2 to 3 weeks ...lol. now with working in a rehab center for physicaly/mentaly disabled adults teaching in the work program i find far less time to build. seems fine though as the hangers full and the days are ripe for flying.

onee more battery to charge a i'm done for the night

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:04 PM   #53
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The thing I don't like about the rubber band holding the spoilers is that it must have some tension when they are closed to hold them closed. When you open them, they increase tension even more as you open them and continue to increase tension the farther they open. This puts more of a load on the servo and then you have the air to contend with and that adds even more load. With the magnet, you only have the load of the initial breaking free of the magnet and then the air load, so it is quite a bit less when fully open. That means you need to use a stronger servo to open them using that rubber band and that is more weight. That wing I showed you is very thin and the servo must be small to begin with, (22X16X8) and while it has 22oz torque, I didn't want to load it any more then necessary so I used the magnet. Whatever method you use, they must remain closed all the way when not in use and fit flush so they do not disturb the air. I also don't like the idea of having one break at the worst time and not have a spare available when I need one. I use the magnet simply because it doesn't break, holds good, and doesn't get tired like an old rubber band does.

Air pressure alone will close them while flying, but since there is nothing to hold them fully closed, they tend to flutter from the sir passing over them and that is not good. The magnet stops this and holds them nice and tight, so that is not a problem. The rubber band will accomplish the same thing, but with other problems the magnet doesn't have. My spoiler is a piece of trailing edge stock and that works fantastic. Stiff enough to holed up and fits nice and tight when closed. Couldn't ask for anything better. I know I am nit picking about some things, but I always nit pick a little with every plane I build and have my own ways of doing things. One thing I do know is that spoilers are fantastic for landing a glider that doesn't want to come down. Yours seem to be a perfect size for this wing and should work great.

Sorry to hear about your heart problems. I hope you get better fast. I know how much an operation can take it out of you and you never seem to quite come back all the way after a major operation. I had to have my anurisum repaired and I never did come back all the way. I may not have come back all the way, but I refuse to let it stop me.

Ed
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:13 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by mred View Post
The thing I don't like about the rubber band holding the spoilers is that it must have some tension when they are closed to hold them closed. When you open them, they increase tension even more as you open them and continue to increase tension the farther they open........

Try putting them like this in photo.The increase in pressure is very little as the rubber band runs sideways to the axis. I'll try to get a better photo if you want one.


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Old 03-18-2012, 12:01 AM   #55
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ed and leadchucker,i just returned home from a great day of flying and would have flown all day time wise if i had brought the skimmer 600...,instead i brought the aerobatic planes. ,but there were two gliders up soaring in thermal lift . an eagle also passed by to really impress us with soarabilty skills.

i have a small park jet to build for speed,it comes with small magnets to hold the canopy down and i now plan to use these as the hold down method.they are very small and very strong. i have aileron stock in my shop and plan to shape it to the curve of the ribs and use ca hings. i also have the space to use hxt900 servos on the spoilers and will use standard hitec servoes for the rudder/staba.

today would have been the day to fly the bot! and i'm sure without spoilers it would have been a few go rounds to get on the ground.

LC,those are some large spoiler/airbrakes your showing,to large for the bot,what plane do they go on. speaking of spoiler size,i noticed the spoilers on todays planes were very small both in width and length. i guess it doesn't take much to add down pressure.

its great to have your feed back guys,and i don't plan on shleving the bot till next winter...it justisn't going to replace flying..lol

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:34 AM   #56
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Now that is about the biggest spoiler I have ever seen. What does that go on?? I don't think any of my gliders could handle a spoiler that big. As for CA hinges on the spoilers, all I can say is why?? I just pushed my spoilers as far forward as I could get them and centered in the slot and then used tape to make a hinge for them. It's simple, safe and effective. If you used CA hinges you would need to out them as high on the spoiler as you could and with the tape on the top, the hinge is in a perfect place to let the spoiler open without rubbing on anything and it allows it to pivot nicely and is as free as you can make them. Making the spoiler go 90 degs using CA hinges would be kind of hard, where tape is super simple and if you ever need to work on anything, just take the tape off and go at it. I used trailing edge stock on mine because the angle of the front is different then aileron stock is. The leading edge of trailing edge stock is vertical when sitting flat on the table while aileron stock is not and if you put the leading edge up against the spar like I do, there would be a gap on the leading edge, where mine has none. The tape I use is Bu-Bro hinge tape and it works great and holds until I need to take them off. I have about 500 flights on my Chrysalis and everything is holding up fine.

Ed
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:45 PM   #57
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Stu!!

I hope that it is the work schedule that's got you sidelined??

Regards
Jimmy
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:16 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by riverrat View Post
Stu!!

I hope that it is the work schedule that's got you sidelined??

Regards
Jimmy

Shh don't tell anyone, but rumor has it hes been flying speed demons and crashing and repairing them.

If anyone asks ya didn't get this info from .
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:38 AM   #59
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Sorry for hijacking this thread, especially considering it's age, but your discussions on controlling the spoilers has me thinking (uh, oh! Take cover! :-) )

Mred, you say let the servo arm push the spoiler up, but that weight/wind is sufficient to push it down, using a magnet to hold it closed. Others have suggested rubber bands to pull/hold it down.Why not just mount the magnet on the end of the servo arm, positioning the paperclip on the underside of the spoiler so the magnet does both? pushing the spoiler up and pulling it down?

Or is that too obviously simple to work?

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:12 PM   #60
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My spoilers will fall down of their own weight, so closing them is no problem. When the glider is moving, you have the added effect of air pushing it back down. Between the two, there is more then enough closing force to close them. The magnet is only there to hold them closed during the climb and normal flying.

Some people put the rubber bands on because they don't feel that there is enough force to close them and keep them closed, but I have found that just a magnet and paper clip is more then enough to keep them closed. You really don't need any more force applied and the magnet is plenty strong enough to keep them closed.

You can try and complicate them all you want, but I like to keep things as simply as possible and this is super simple and doesn't have any draw backs that I have found. They close every time and I don't think you could ask for anything else.

Some people say that going past 60 degs is not necessary and it only adds drag. I say great, that is just what I want. I go to 90 degs so I get an air brake action and it really slows things down. My glider will almost stop in mid air and it comes down pretty fast. That is exactly what I want and this system has been working on my gliders now for over 3 years with not one problem coming up.

If you ever need to get in to work on the servo, that tape comes off very easy and so does the spoiler so you can get to the servo very easy. Now I would like to take credit for coming up with this system, but I didn't, I just copied it. This has been around for awhile and while I don't know who discovered this, I do know that it works great and while you can do things different, I don't think any other system will do it any better.

Ed
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:06 PM   #61
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what ever happened to this guy building the bot,for crying out load!starts and doesn't finnish. who does he think he is.












oh yeah,it's me....was hooked on my need for speed and flying.gramps,thanks for telling everyone of my addiction to speed but with help from fellow club members... i got my life back to normal speed[old 60's saying"speed kills"]

the weathers changing quickly and the bot is waiting on the side line till flying is done. it's really ready to go together soon and please don't ever consider talk of spoilers as hijacking this thread as it's a very important subject. i plan on installing spoilers for sure and will copy the design described by ed. the simplest to add,and i have the greatest lil magnets to use as hold downs. they were meant for the canopy on my hk parkjet that uses screws to hold it in place now.very small and very strong.

i haven't checked the assembled wings that have been uncovered for warping so i can only hope all is as i left it. will reactivate this thread very soon. i think I'm going to love finishing this build and sailing the bot!

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:47 AM   #62
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BACK TO THE BUILD!!!!!

I am starting to fit the tail feathers on this bird and the instructions aren't very clear. so before i cut the slots in the vertical fin [elevators front le rod]. i need to have someone who's seen the tail trimmed to know if theres enough down elevator. i took these pics for reference only as theres nothing set yet.

notice the space that is in the top of the vertical fin slot.if this is nuetral[picture#1] theres around 1/3" to move the elevators le up to get the down elevator movement [pic #2]....not much throw compared to the up elevator[picture #3].i placed a straight edge along the bottom of the fuse to give a visual of maximum movements.

the drawings do not show the elevator installed in neutral position to go by, so any help with this info will be great appreciated. thanks,stu


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narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:51 AM   #63
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i bumped this post for a hopeful responce...i figure the down elevator position is enough now after studying my pictures,but i am looking for confirmation.

if someone can confirm the neutral for level flight for a "bird of time" will be picture #1 ,and the little bit of movement for down elevator in picture #2 will be enough i would greatly appreciate your feed back.

i am so used to using max throws on other planes. this large glider has me thinking the total throws on this whole elevator section moving as one piece will be very little if the instructions say 1/2".[guessing thats 1/2"in both direction =1 inch total]

the thing that cause's my question is the amount of distance i could get for the up elevator but not down. and if i launch and need to trim in down elevator to attain level flight..that could spell trouble for me to get down.


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narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:52 PM   #64
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I hope you get an answer, as I have a BoT on the shelf myself, and the more build tips I get to read about before I transfer it to the build table, the better I will feel

However you must remember, sailplanes in general are not that popular at WattFlyer, and the preferred building material for the few here that do build is usually foam or coroplast. So you're thread is already of interest to only a small pecentage of a small percentage of a small percentage of WattFlyers who would want to build a sailplane out of balsa.

Blasphemous as this may sound, you may want to pose the question on RCGroups as well, as they have enough sailplane enthusiasts who also build to have a a few dedicated forums to the subjects, rather than just "one and a half".

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Old 11-07-2012, 01:29 AM   #65
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thats a great idea flywheel,i took your suggestion and just posted on rcu's builder threads. for what ever reason,my logging into rcg doesn't stay and i really don't want to go thru the hassel to do it all over...lol. sadly,I'm still having trouble getting around wattflyers threads.sometimes it works ,other times i close out due to it freezing up. it's only happening to me here at wattflyer so...... life goes on.


i hope to hear from ajear[ed] from" long island silent flyers" club.he'll know how the tail feathers should look when trimmed....hope all is ok with his family in long island ny...it took a hit with sandy and still has lots of folks without power. this is going to be a long week for repair crews with a nor easter blowing weds thru thursday..

i'll post the answer for the BOT and will finish the build soon as cold weather has set in and daylight fades quicker every day.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:58 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by stuart View Post
i bumped this post for a hopeful responce...i figure the down elevator position is enough now after studying my pictures,but i am looking for confirmation.


the thing that cause's my question is the amount of distance i could get for the up elevator but not down. and if i launch and need to trim in down elevator to attain level flight..that could spell trouble for me to get down.
Stuart don't worry about the down.
It's a glider it's not suppose to come down.

I take it the throws on the BOT has to be setup now before you glue on the tail feathers because of clearance issues to get the down?
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:09 AM   #67
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I just found this thread and having built an electric conversion BOT I went an took some pictures of the tail trimmed at neutral. I also took some pictures of the spoilers and of the motor install, including one showing the cooling air inlets which are similar to the Chrysalis. I hope these help and are not too late.

Happy building & flying

Mike


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Old 01-10-2013, 04:48 PM   #68
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stuart - Don't know if these would be of interest to you but I just discovered them at HK. They are frequently in and out of stock but I just received a pair and they look really good!. They are proportional and I will put them on my right side slide lever on my JR9303 as soon as I get my BOT. There are videos of their installation on the web - hard to find but they're there - and they are nearly invisible when not deployed. You have to adjust your servo travel to about 50% and you could use servo speed control so they are a little slower - if you wish. I just watched a video of sailplanes racing down in New Zealand and after they dumped their water ballast and came in to land, you could see them working the spoilers as they crossed the edge of the field. Really showed my how these things work in real life!!
Anyway, I am enjoying your build, your fight for recovery and your fine workmanship. I am retired and past 80 but still love to build and fly. Just not as fast as I once was - but then who is??

Cheers

Appearantly I can't post links as this is my first posting. I will try again at another post!
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:10 PM   #69
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stuart - Here is the link for spoilers that I alluded to in my first post http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ight_Pair.html

And here is the link to the Sailplane races in NZ that you may be interested in viewing.
http://blip.tv/virtualsoaringeu/glad...racing-3232728

Cheers
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:14 AM   #70
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OK flyer,thanks for the pictures. you built a beauty bot!

scman,thanks for the hobbyking links,i think the spoiler will be a servo activated spoiler and made from balsa. even though those alum ones look so cool,they also weigh much more then the simple balsa design.

i have all the pc's sitting on a build table collecting dust,really do need someone to inspire me to finish the bot. tonight i finished transferring all the setting from my old optic6 into the new one. went thru every setting for epr,expo,dr,ect...ect...and now need to power up each model to see if the programing needs fine tuning.....props will be removed of coarse first.

i really do want to wrap up the bot for spring flying but theres still lots of time.

thanks again guys. okflyer,i still need to enlarge the vertical fin slot so i can get more movement with the elevator in the down position. I'm going to knife it deeper and add a little balsa to the vertical Le for strength.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:50 PM   #71
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finished moding the vertical fin slot for the elevators movement. going to be thinking about covering the bot soon. quick question to all you glider pilots out there....is there an advantage to using transparent covering over the ribs of the wing. i bought a roll of monocoat transparent red but need 2 rolls to do the wings and there was only one roll on the rack in the store.

will sunlight shine thru the covering making the bot more visable or is this just for cosmetics to see thru wing and the ribs. i know when gliders get real high they just all look dark. thanks for any answers.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:53 AM   #72
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YIKES!!!!!the bot build is almost a year old,just another 11 days. I'd say I'm lazy but truth is i had more fun projects to occupy my building time...house chores.

one thing that hindered the continuing of the bot was the final assembly of the fuse and designing my own layout for servos,the hatch which turned out really nice,and the many trials of the tail section to getting things aligned so shaping of the fuse with the hand planer and then coarse sand paper.

the tail section is surprisingly level and the vertical fin is ready for installing. horizontal fins need fine sanding as does the fuse. now i hope to get the spoilers into the wing halves then it's off to the hobby store to p/u more covering. even though monocoat can be a challenge to use i prefer the thicker material for the wing as it adds strength and will certainly help to get any warps out . the wings have been waiting for a long time to get attention and the final picture is where they sat all this time.......nice and cozy on top of the unfinished topflight coarsair...lol.


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Old 02-18-2013, 09:49 PM   #73
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so i set the spoilers today and went 4 bays wide between ribs. the with is about 1 1/2" and i realize the servo arms need to be longer. they in the "up" position are hitting to low on the spoiler thus making for leverage on the hing tape...the arm needs to reach the top edge better when open.

as far as the hold down ,I'll be setting a very small magnet on each side to hold them down snug. these magnets are the small type used to hold the hobbyking parkjet canopy on and won't add any real weight.

next to do is set the wing to the fuse and trim the battery hatch to fit snug to the LE of the wing,then the best part of all is the setting the motor into the nose with the esc and battery to check how much weight will be needed to get cg.

a few pictures of the spoilers with misc items to still be completed. note the packing tape is of coarse just to see if they worked at all and full length hing tape will be used after the covering is done. the covering will be monocoat missile red and I'm going to put a bold bright yellow pattern on the top side just for looks as i don't expect to see a difference when high up.


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Old 02-18-2013, 11:10 PM   #74
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Good looking build Stuart. On the covering, transparent is really cool looking, but that is about all I have noticed, I can see any of my gliders at a good height no matter what kind of covering I use. The main thing is to use a good bright color so it will show up better then you are turning and can see the top of the wing. Now if you get high enough, they are all going to start looking black, but that is up there a ways.

I like transparent coverings, but I also use solid colors too and they all show up great. I like yellow the best for showing up, but red and orange are pretty good to. I have transparent blue on the wing and it does not show up very well as transparent. It looks more solid then transparent and it is great on cloudy days, but not so great on clear days. It's OK, but it looks black rather fast where the yellow and red show up much better.

On the spoilers, I am using the longest servo arm that comes with the servo and it makes contact with about the bottom 25% of the spoiler when fully open. They open and close just fine and I have yet to have any problems with them. I am using 22oz output torque servos and they are really small and thin. They are Blue Bird BMS-306MAX and they have been in there about 4 or 5 years now and they are still working great and have never had any troubles out of them. I fly this guy often and they have gotten a lot of use and have yet to give me a hard time.

Make sure you cover your spoilers totally, not just on top, or they will warp when you take them outside. Mine did and they warp more the longer they are out. In a short 2 hour or so flying session it's no big deal, but I took my glider to SEFF and they warped so bad I could not fly it.

Don't forget to put a frame around the spoiler so the covering has something to stick to. I looks like you left that out, but maybe you were planning to put it in later.

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Old 02-19-2013, 02:10 AM   #75
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ed ,glad you mentioned the frame around the spoiler bays for covering to stick to. I'm guessing it doesn't have to be a deep frame work...maybe 1/2inch deep to get enough surface for the covering. i also plan on enlarging the servo arms.

tonight i hadn't planed on going back down to work some more,but i did and have the motor mounted to a fire wall and made a way to protect the 3 wires from the bell spinning. with a little added balsa on the inside I'll be able to sand the nose more rounded to make the spinner look better and also allow for a cooling hole inlet. my plan is to use 4 long bolts to screw into blind nuts mounted inside the fuse behind the motor,this way i can easily pull the motor for replacement if needed. i really don't worry about the motor or esc,battery overheating as i rarely run the motor on my skimmer 600.gain height and power off. maybe 30 to 50 second bursts then glide and things are always cool.

thanks again ed,i would have missed the frame work and been annoyed once covering..... been there..done that before.....

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