Deep Cycle Lead Acid Battery Life Span

[cyclops2]

Go to page # 1 of this thread.

Then down to post # 13.

Click on his name in the left side.

Select send PM when on his page.

Rich

[cyclops2]

Go to..... Company Support Forum....

Then to ...FMA
Then to the.... saddle pack problem.....

You will see that all of FMA pitches in to help you on a problem.

Rich

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by MikeCr

Unfortunately no porch. More packs are good and I am leaning towards the FMA charger. I haven't had tome to run through the data. What is the difference between the PowerLAb 6 and 8?


Mike

The Powerlab 6 and 8 are both good chargers. Club members are using both units. If memory is correct, the '8 charger can handle more watts into your LiPo battery than the '6 charger can. Something you might need if you get into giant scale models.

I've got the '8 charger, and am using it to charge a 6S4P A123 battery pack at 30 amps. The '8 charger handles this with out effort.

Note that the '8 charger only charges one pack at a time though. To charge more packs, they must be placed in parallel, something covered in the '8 charger manual.

[PlaneCraz3d]

Denny, I see your using a PowerLab8 to charge your field batteries. I have a PowerLab6 and absolutely love it. I did a lot of research before buying this as I couldn't decide between icharger or this one. Anyway, I learned from Tim Marks over on RCG (I think), that the lead acid charge routine in the Powerlab has basically three steps. A higher amp bulk charge to around 12 volts, then lowered to around 2 amps until 13-14 volts, then goes into a finish cycle that is supposed to desulfate the battery. So if this is true then you already have desulfator on hand.

Note: My advice is to be taken with a grain of salt as I am no expert by any means, this is my understanding of a powerlabs lead acid charge routine though.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by PlaneCraz3d

Denny, I see your using a PowerLab8 to charge your field batteries. I have a PowerLab6 and absolutely love it. I did a lot of research before buying this as I couldn't decide between icharger or this one. Anyway, I learned from Tim Marks over on RCG (I think), that the lead acid charge routine in the Powerlab has basically three steps. A higher amp bulk charge to around 12 volts, then lowered to around 2 amps until 13-14 volts, then goes into a finish cycle that is supposed to desulfate the battery. So if this is true then you already have desulfator on hand.

Note: My advice is to be taken with a grain of salt as I am no expert by any means, this is my understanding of a powerlabs lead acid charge routine though.

Yeah, I've looked up desulfators on the internet, seems they may have questionable value. Those giant electric power substation lead acid batteries are put through whats called an "equalization charge" every so often. I've even tried doing that to my various lead acid batteries. Didn't do much good. One source even suggested boosting the battery voltage to 18 Volts DC on a charger. Tried that, no success.

I've got one of those glass hydrometers that shows the level of battery charge by testing the battery acid. It shows "good" on a new battery. But after a 1/2 year or so of treatment with the high powered Cellpro chargers, those lead acid batteries never get much over "Dead" on the hydrometer, even after a full charge cycle.

[quorneng]

kyleservicetech
In my days of full size gliding there were always lots of small 12V lead acid batteries (they powered the instruments) being discarded for holding little charge. As you say the hydrometer always indicated 'dead'.
As these batteries were considered scrap what I did as an experiment was fully charge and then replace with fresh battery acid. Lo and behold! The battery capacity was significantly (well over 50%) restored after a few charge/discharge cycles.
Of course it was still an 'old' battery and were never used in the air but I used them for test purposes for many more years.

[Turner]

This may be off topic but with people using multiple batteries to power chargers I thought it was pertinent.

Searching for some flexible wire to make up some small jumper cables suitable for motorcycles and lawn tractors I found a product called Radaflex twin cable in 6 AWG. It's a twin lead wire with black and red covering. Better yet I found a place that sells it for $1.98 a foot with no minimum.

http://www.cableyard.com/RADAFLEX-6-...able_p_17.html

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by Turner

This may be off topic but with people using multiple batteries to power chargers I thought it was pertinent.

Searching for some flexible wire to make up some small jumper cables suitable for motorcycles and lawn tractors I found a product called Radaflex twin cable in 6 AWG. It's a twin lead wire with black and red covering. Better yet I found a place that sells it for $1.98 a foot with no minimum.

http://www.cableyard.com/RADAFLEX-6-...able_p_17.html

Another place to check out is one of those welding supply houses. They sell very flexible heavy gauge wire for reasonable prices.

[LowThudd]

I didn't see this mentioned in the thread, so I'll throw it out there. Cheap diesel gensets are now becoming readily available from china. These can be run on a variety of fuels including Biodiesel(love the stuff in my Diesel Mercedes), waste vegi oil, syndiesel, kerosene etc. This would limit the polution factor, as well as being a very efficient source of power. A typical diesel is at least 30% more efficient than gas, reguardless of fuel choice. And being able to run virtually ANY thin oil is indeed neat. In an emergency, I even ran my 300SD Merc on a gallon of motor oil, when I ran out of fuel no where near a station that sold diesel. If I was in the market for a small generator, that is the direction I would shoot for.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by LowThudd

These can be run on a variety of fuels including Biodiesel(love the stuff in my Diesel Mercedes), waste vegi oil, syndiesel, kerosene etc. This would limit the polution factor, as well as being a very efficient source of power. A typical diesel is at least 30% more efficient than gas, reguardless of fuel choice. And being able to run virtually ANY thin oil is indeed neat. In an emergency, I even ran my 300SD Merc on a gallon of motor oil, when I ran out of fuel no where near a station that sold diesel. If I was in the market for a small generator, that is the direction I would shoot for.

Being raised on a farm many many years ago, my dad had an Oliver 88 diesel tractor, first diesel tractor in the neighborhood. When our neighbors found out about the 88's diesel engine's fuel economy, especially under light loads, a lot of them followed suit.

Problem is, after two years of running, that 88 got very hard to start. I drove it into town for a check over. The diesel mechanic asked "What were you running in this thing? Tractor Fuel?" (Back then tractor fuel was a low grade of gasoline for farm use. Diesel fuel was 17 cents a gallon, tractor fuel a few cents cheaper.)

Of course we were running tractor fuel, and it cost $600 to fix the fuel injectors. Back in 1957, $600 was a LOT of money.

Back to the present days, last summer our RC club started running jet fuel in our diesel powered lawnmower. I warned them about the lack of injector lubrication in jet fuel. Turns out you can buy a special oil for this purpose to mix with various fuels. Jet fuel has noticeably less horsepower than regular diesel fuel with our lawnmower.

So far, so good.

[LowThudd]

Biodiesel has higher lubricity than standard diesel fuel. Syndiesel is even better(but pricey), and can be ordered through the standard mail as it has a very high flash point. These days, tractor fuel, or off highway diesel(red dye) is as good or better than what is in the highway fuel pumps. I have heard of people running jet av fuel mixed with tranny fluid to up the lubricity, in fact a few good mechanics I knew were doing this.

[LowThudd]

FWIW, in my Merc. running Biodiesel makes the injecters nearly silent, and the power an smoothness is noticably better. 30 year old 5 cyl turbo diesel, 130k miles. Runs great. Gotta love the old diesel mercs. The motors run anywhere from 500k to a million miles without needing a rebuild. No one makes cars like that anymore. lol

[CHELLIE]

Originally Posted by LowThudd

Biodiesel has higher lubricity than standard diesel fuel. Syndiesel is even better(but pricey), and can be ordered through the standard mail as it has a very high flash point. These days, tractor fuel, or off highway diesel(red dye) is as good or better than what is in the highway fuel pumps. I have heard of people running jet av fuel mixed with tranny fluid to up the lubricity, in fact a few good mechanics I knew were doing this.

Incase of a melt down, you have a gas station on just about every power pole that has a transformer, shoot a hole in the transformer, get a long wood pole, funnel and garden hose, about 15 gallons of mineral oil in each transformer LOL, Denny is going to love this one make sure the power is Turned Off

[LowThudd]

Originally Posted by CHELLIE

Incase of a melt down, you have a gas station on just about every power pole that has a transformer, shoot a hole in the transformer, get a long wood pole, funnel and garden hose, about 15 gallons of mineral oil in each transformer LOL, Denny is going to love this one make sure the power is Turned Off

The real fun begins when a bad voltage regulator causes all the glow plugs to burn out, and the only way to get the engine started is to use the engine block heater while pouring boiling water over the injection pump and injectors for about 15 min. lol
According to the owners manual, my car can be started in winter without a battery charge if you get the car moving at @30mph then drop it in low speed. Haven't tried that one yet.
I have run it on veggie oil a couple of times in a pinch. In a worst case senario in the middle of no where, I guess one could attatch the injection pump to the crank case. There is two gallons of motor oil in there= 50 miles or so, or whenever the bearings seize. lol

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by CHELLIE

Incase of a melt down, you have a gas station on just about every power pole that has a transformer, shoot a hole in the transformer, get a long wood pole, funnel and garden hose, about 15 gallons of mineral oil in each transformer LOL, Denny is going to love this one make sure the power is Turned Off

Yup
Some of our circuit breakers used that transformer oil for insulation. And every so often we'd get one back where some deer hunter used it for target practice. Those tanks have rather thick walls on them, and it takes a 30-06 or similar to punch a hole in them.

After the insulating oil leaks out, the utility has a real mess on their hands. First, the thing is going to blow after the oil is gone. I've seen those 1/8 inch thick walls on those tanks rip open like it was hit with a giant can opener. And the 38KV flash over can be seen for miles. You'd better believe when we get one of these back, we'd look for bullet holes, because of liability concerns. We had one come back where the backup circuit breaker failed to clear the faulted breaker that lost its oil. We got that 1600 pound circuit breaker back as a bunch of melted aluminum/steel/copper puddles inside of a 55 gallon barrel. It even melted the ceramic portions of the vacuum contact interrupters. And the customer wanted to know why it failed.

Second, the utility has some 50 gallons or more of oil (Sometimes a lot more) soaking into the ground. And, that has to be completely dug up and completely cleaned up.

We designed our NOVA circuit breakers for this reason. (NOVA = No Oil with VAcuum contacts.)

For what it's worth, transformer oil has no lubrication qualities what so ever. I don't know if transformer oil would even run in a diesel engine. That stuff has a pretty high flash point.

(Moderators, I know this is getting way off of topic!!!)

[LowThudd]

Heavy weight motor oil ran in my Merc. Didn't run great, and smoked pretty bad, but it kept me going down the road until I filled it up with diesel. I wouldn't recommend running anything in a diesel that isn't tried and true, unless it is absolutely necessary.

Running waste veggie oil was all the rage in NorCal(the hippies loved it), until San Fransisco decided it would require all waste veggie oil to be converted to biodiesel for the cities fleet vehicles.

[CHELLIE]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_transf...tue_diesel_oil

Can transformer oil substitue diesel oil?



In:Ford F-250, Ford F-350 [Edit categories]


Ford Questions






Best Answer

Hi

Yes I have been running about four Ford LDV's On transformer oil for about three years now. No problem. The only problem is to get enough at a reasonable price and then to purefy the oil to acceptable levels. I bought my own purefication plant and uses about 1500liters of tranformer oil to run vehicles. for business use. We travel a lot.

[LowThudd]

I'll have to remember that the next time the Appocalypse happens. lol

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by CHELLIE

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_transf...tue_diesel_oil

Can transformer oil substitue diesel oil?







Best Answer

Hi

Yes I have been running about four Ford LDV's On transformer oil for about three years now. No problem. The only problem is to get enough at a reasonable price and then to purefy the oil to acceptable levels. I bought my own purefication plant and uses about 1500liters of tranformer oil to run vehicles. for business use. We travel a lot.

Transformer oil is good for use in transformers for many years. What breaks down that oil is contamination with water, and sometimes some other unknown stuff. We routinely tested that oil in customer return units with an oil sample tester that subjected the oil to 75 KV, and watch for excessive current leakage through the oil.

A lot of transformer and circuit breaker repair shops do filter that oil, and re-use it. Our company never did do that. Just to much risk because of liability issues. (If you ever saw a circuit breaker explode, you'd know why!) For what its worth, we had six 50,000 gallon tanks of oil in the plant for new production.

[Turner]

Isn't that oil toxic. Maybe things have changed but that stuff used to be very dangerous to human health if i'm recalling correctly.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by Turner

Isn't that oil toxic. Maybe things have changed but that stuff used to be very dangerous to human health if i'm recalling correctly.

Yeah, it used to be years ago. They used PCB's in it. Nowdays, everything that comes into our repair center is 100% tested for PCB's in the oil. If it has over a few parts per billion, we don't work on it, and return it as is.

With PCB's the customer is pretty much stuck with it.

The company I worked for came up with an insulating oil based on soy beans. It works very well, and in a bind, you can safely cook your turkey in it.

[LowThudd]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

Yeah, it used to be years ago. They used PCB's in it. Nowdays, everything that comes into our repair center is 100% tested for PCB's in the oil. If it has over a few parts per billion, we don't work on it, and return it as is.

With PCB's the customer is pretty much stuck with it.

The company I worked for came up with an insulating oil based on soy beans. It works very well, and in a bind, you can safely cook your turkey in it.

If it is soy ester based, it may be similar to biodiesel. The transestrifacation of soybean oil separates the glycerin from the oil, leaving methyl-esters. Interesting enough, the process is very similar to making soap.

PCBs are nasty. Years ago, even toxic waste round ups would not take the stuff because it was illegal to transport it. Now days, they'll take anything just to keep it out of the landfills.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by LowThudd

If it is soy ester based, it may be similar to biodiesel. The transestrifacation of soybean oil separates the glycerin from the oil, leaving methyl-esters. Interesting enough, the process is very similar to making soap.

PCBs are nasty. Years ago, even toxic waste round ups would not take the stuff because it was illegal to transport it. Now days, they'll take anything just to keep it out of the landfills.

Good question. The companies research center scientists created this new oil with one very good benefit. It is much harder to ignite in a disaster. Something pretty important when dealing with very high voltage equipment failures.

[solentlife]

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer

That's very interesting. I did know that pulling higher currents diminished the Ah capacity available (in any battery) but i didn't know the effect was quite so marked on lead acids. This will tend to drive battery selection to massive size batteries that are very unwieldy to transport and handle, and also pretty expensive.

Maybe carrying a few extra flight batteries to reduce field charging requirements is suddenly a more attractive option?

Steve

This is one of the reasons I gave up posting on similar threads after reading replies basically telling me I knew nought about it !

I have 4 boats and all this is old hat to anyone with a boat and sails seriously. We rely on our batterys to power everything from the navigation lights to radios, start the diesel, diesel fired heating ... the list goes on and on ... building up into a high ampage reqt.

I agree that Puekerts Law is valid and surprises many - but what I amd many opther boaters I know consider is that USEFUL capacity reduces .. the actual capacity of the battery doesn't suddenly dissapear ... If not pushed too hard ... the battery recovers somewhat and can then supply again but it would then be advisable to greatly reduce demand. Bit like that winters dayu when car wouldn't start ... battery gives out ... you go back to car 10mins later and battery turns it over again.

Deep Cycle can be discharged lower than a standard traction battery BUT cannot take HIGH demand current - it damages plates. But even that deeper discharge is NOT as great an increase amount as some think compared to traction batts ...

I shall wander of now ... before getting into trouble with experts !!

Nigel

[solentlife]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

Hi Walt
Do you have any records or data on that "very low amp draw"? Might be useful for the other wattflyer readers.

Watch out guys ... there are people on here and RCG that say it's tosh and DC will provide starting for heavy diesels etc.

DC batterys are designed to power leisure gear in trailers, boats, camping ... NOT for high ampage starter duty etc.

They have thick soft plates and do not have the surface area of traction batts with lots of thin HARD plates.

There are compromise battts - which can start engines and can survive deeper discharge - but they are a compromise. Unfortunately many sellers do NOT distuinguish between them and buyers get fooled ...

The best battery for heavy duty - are truck batterys built to not only start the big diesel engines but also to power the hydraulic tail-lifts.

(I've been suffering Lead Acid batterys all my life on boats ... tried all the different types ... )

Nigel