What is FASST ?

[Birdmanpete]

It looks like a joke but I do need to know whether FASST receivers work with all transmitters on appropriate frequencies or only with specific FASST transmitters.

Birdmanpete

[Wildflyer]

FASST is Futaba's term for their method of the many different ways, company's code the 2.4 GHZ RC systems.

As far as I know FASST receivers will only work with Futaba FASST transmitters. I could be wrong as I am a JR man.

All manufactures have their own system with their own name for it.
Some company's like HobbyKing make compatible receivers as well as their own. Of course all of them claim there's is the best.

Because we have several different ways the brands handle switching around the 2.4 band, we as flyers can operate more RC gear in one place without interference than we could ever fly

Here is Futaba's explanation of FASST;

http://www.futaba-rc.com/technology/fasst.html

[AEAJR]

FASST is a brand name for one of Futaba's 3 implementations of the 2.4 GHz system. They also have FHSS which is their low end implementation.

Futaba FASSTest is an extension of FASST that includes telemetry. I believe Futaba FASST radios can talk to FASSest receivers but they can't take advantage of the telemetry features.

FASST radios can not talk to Futaba FHSS receivers and their FHSS radios (6J and 8J) can not talk to FASST or FASSTest receivers.

Note that FHSS is also a generic term meaning Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum. But just because a radio says it uses FHSS does not mean a Futaba FHSS readio can talk to it.

It gets even more confusing when you get to modules and DIY RF adapters that you can solder inside your radio. I have a Futaba Radio that was originally a 72 MHz radio. Then I added a Spektrum DSM2 module. Then I added a Futaba FASST module. Then I added a Hobbico AnyLink module. Now I can talk to a variety of receivers.


Unfortunately this 2.4 GHz world is a mass of conflicting and confusing terms. Ya just have to keep asking questions. Those of us who have studied this stuff will be glad to help.


Are you looking for receivers that will work with your radio? What radio do you have?

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by AEAJR

FASST radios can not talk to Futaba FHSS receivers and their FHSS radios (6J and 8J) can not talk to FASST or FASSTest receivers.

Note that FHSS is also a generic term meaning Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum. But just because a radio says it uses FHSS does not mean a Futaba FHSS readio can talk to it.

Interesting.

I've got a Spektrum DX8 with DSMX technology, and it works just fine both my new DSMX receivers and my old DSSS receivers. You can google DSSS modulation, and get all sorts of very technical information on exactly how it works. Google FASST, and get, nothing on exactly how it works.

They both work well however.

[rcers]

Originally Posted by AEAJR

FASST radios can not talk to Futaba FHSS receivers and their FHSS radios (6J and 8J) can not talk to FASST or FASSTest receivers.

They are on the cusp of releasing the first that will talk to both. The Futaba 14SG will have the ability to talk with any Futaba protocol. At $600 street price it isn't a high volume model more than likely.

I am still trying to figure out why Futaba did this.

Mike

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by rcers

They are on the cusp of releasing the first that will talk to both. The Futaba 14SG will have the ability to talk with any Futaba protocol. At $600 street price it isn't a high volume model more than likely.

I am still trying to figure out why Futaba did this.

Mike

Yeah, that is rather strange.

[AEAJR]

They came out wtih FASST first. It appeared to be targeted more to the high end customers that are Futaba's biggest buyers. Solid as a rock but quite expensive.

Meanwhile Spektrum was cleaning up in the entry level and beginner market, the market of the future. As Spektrum has advanced their technology they have done a superb job of maintaining backward compatability.

Apparently Futaba they could not bring down the price of FASST so they released FHSS, more focused on the lower end and entry level market. As Kyle stated, they will start coming out with radios that can do both, or all three.

[rcers]

Spektrum's 18th month lead in the market really hurt Futaba. Releasing non-backward compatible protocols I don't think helps them. The 6J and 8J (especially the later) do offer really good functionality at a decent price.

But it is pretty confusing for the masses - compatibility that is. It will be interesting to see if they bring compatibility too all the range of radios.

Mike

[AEAJR]

10 years ago Spektrum didn't even exist. Today it is probably the top selling brand in the 2.4 market.

For the longest time it was Spektrum for the entry level to mid range stuff and JR for the high end. But Spektrum stepped on JR's spance with the DX8, DX10 and DX18. JR has now come out with a line of radios that abandon Spektrum's RF system.

It will be interesting to see if we start to see JR moving back into the entry level stuff to capture the newer pilots. Once a pilot gets set with a given 2.4 protocol it gets harder to move them to another RF system. That is how Spektrum did it.

[JetPlaneFlyer]

yep,
Futaba really screwed up on their marketing stratergy, and they not only screwed up once but several times..

1. They missed the boat on 2.4Ghz favouring instead to sit on their laurels.
2. Eventually they have no choice but to jump on the 2.4GHz bandwagon but stupidly they do it only at the top end of the range meaning newbies and the mid range masses have to choose other brands.
3. When they do release mid range priced products they do so with a separate 2.4GHz protocol giving users no upgrade path to the higher end Futaba products.. Doh!
4. They let Horizon corner the increasingly dominant RTF and BnF and Ultra-Micro markets rather than tieing up with some high volume RTF model manufacturer.
5. Even today they still have no truly low price product to attract beginners. Their basic 4 channel 2.4tx is 300% more expensive that the equivalent Spektrum model!

The guy in charge of Futaba marketing strategy should be shot....

Steve

[rcers]

Originally Posted by AEAJR

10 years ago Spektrum didn't even exist. Today it is probably the top selling brand in the 2.4 market.

For the longest time it was Spektrum for the entry level to mid range stuff and JR for the high end. But Spektrum stepped on JR's spance with the DX8, DX10 and DX18. JR has now come out with a line of radios that abandon Spektrum's RF system.

It will be interesting to see if we start to see JR moving back into the entry level stuff to capture the newer pilots. Once a pilot gets set with a given 2.4 protocol it gets harder to move them to another RF system. That is how Spektrum did it.

Yep - I knew when I received the "pre release" Spektrum DX6 radio system for a review I knew in within 2 weeks of getting that box the RC world was about to change, forever. That system was released to the public in December of 2005, just over 7 years ago.

I had the Futaba 6EX in my hands for a review 18 months later. I was shocked it took Futaba that long to release their first 2.4GHz box.

I was so impressed with that 6 channel DX6 I sold ALL of my 72MHz equipment about 4 months after getting the DX6. I was that convinced.

It was a brilliant plan from Horizon. Release it under a new "brand" name but use JR boxes and software (brilliant). The reason I say brilliant is if the system had not "caught on" they had a new brand, not JR to expose to that. Brilliant.

Well we all know it caught on.

I don't know that I agree with stepped on - Horizon = JR = Spektrum anyway. Both are Horizon brands.

I would love to know the North America Radio system share on December of 2005 and today. I suspect Spektrum swapped with Futaba in share (well maybe as of a year or two ago).

Anyway - all the modern 2.4GHz system are the most reliable RF links we have ever had. All of us benefit. It is great to have a choice!

Mike

[AEAJR]

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer

yep,

Futaba really screwed up on their marketing stratergy, and they not only screwed up once but several times..

snip...

The guy in charge of Futaba marketing strategy should be shot....

Steve

Why? He doesn't produce the products. He promotes what they make.

Now, you might wish to take exception to the decisions made by the product design team.

[JetPlaneFlyer]

Originally Posted by AEAJR

Why? He doesn't produce the products. He promotes what they make.

Now, you might wish to take exception to the decisions made by the product design team.

I'm not so sure. The design guys just design the stuff that the guys living on the top floor say they want. There really is nothing wrong with the design of Futaba gear, it's good stuff. I think they lost their way at a strategic product line level and in their pricing policy, neither of which is within the designers remit.

Anyway, someone in Futaba screwed up badly.

[rcers]

Yep that is that way it works at my company - marketing and product are one in the same.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by rcers

Yep that is that way it works at my company - marketing and product are one in the same.

LOL
Every so often before retiring, our marketing department would sell a bunch of $$$$ special design circuit breakers.

THEN, they'd go to the custom engineering group and ask them "Can we make this???" And sometimes the Mkg guy would loose his job over this.

[AEAJR]

Anyone know of a source of sales figures for the various brands of radios?

I still think Futaba is one of the top 3 in $ volume though they might not be the top in unit sales. But it takes a lot of DX6is to make up for one 14MG

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by AEAJR

Anyone know of a source of sales figures for the various brands of radios?

I still think Futaba is one of the top 3 in $ volume though they might not be the top in unit sales. But it takes a lot of DX6is to make up for one 14MG

Didn't wattflyer run a survey on this a few years ago?

[rcers]

Originally Posted by AEAJR

Anyone know of a source of sales figures for the various brands of radios?

I still think Futaba is one of the top 3 in $ volume though they might not be the top in unit sales. But it takes a lot of DX6is to make up for one 14MG

They don't release the real numbers.....

Large event surveys would be good too.

[AEAJR]

I did a survey on the most popular radios and the most popular protocols for sailplanes. The survey was over on RCGroups. Futaba came out as #1

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by AEAJR

I did a survey on the most popular radios and the most popular protocols for sailplanes. The survey was over on RCGroups. Futaba came out as #1

Was that for 72Mhz or 2.4 Ghz? And, how long ago was it?

If my feeble memory is correct, Spektrum came out on top in the www.wattflyer.com survey.

Maybe it's time to run another survey or wattflyer poll for "what radio are you using?"

[rcers]

The surveys on the forums just turn into "fan's" getting other like minded to vote. I think the best thing you could do is go to huge events and require that info on registration. That would be interesting. It would also show you what the airplane guys use, VS heli, VS sailplane. The events I go to around here - Spektrum and JR dominate. Followed distantly by Futaba and then Hitec. Airtronics (bigger among the sailplane crews I have seen like 3 of - ever). I used to be Airtronics exclusively. My club reflects that with largely Spek/JR then Futaba. I think one guy flies Airtronics and 1 or 2 on Hitec. The 72MHz holdouts are still largely Futaba.

If you could get the entire site population of RCG, Wattflyer and RCU to vote - rather than the very few that do surveys, that might be legit.

What is most important is - we all have a choice and it does not really matter what is popular as long as you are happy. Ford VS Chevy. I drive a Honda.

Mike

[AEAJR]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

Was that for 72Mhz or 2.4 Ghz? And, how long ago was it?

If my feeble memory is correct, Spektrum came out on top in the www.wattflyer.com survey.

Maybe it's time to run another survey or wattflyer poll for "what radio are you using?"

Survey found here:

What Radio/RF are you using for your full house sailplanes?
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1732320

As of today 333 people have responded to the survey. This was started in Sept of 2012. Here is an analysis I did in Septermber when 281 had responded. There may have been small movements since then but the analysis will hold up pretty well even after another 50 responses.

Originally Posted by aeajr

As of 9/26 281 people have responded. But the ratios are holding pretty well:
Futaba Radio/Futaba RF............... 15.66%
Futaba Radio/Other RF................. 4.98%
JR Radio/JR RF ............................ 10.23%
JR Radio/Other RF........................ 6.76%
Spektrum Radio/Spektrum RF...... 10.68%
Spektrum Radio/Other RF ............ 0.36%
Airtronics Radio/Airtronics RF ....... 16.37%
Airtronics Radio/Other RF ............. 0.71%
Hitec Radio/Hitec RF .................... 4.59%
Hitec Radio/Other RF ..................... 0.36%
Multiplex Radio/Multiplex RF ........... 2.14%
Multiplex Radio/Other RF ................ 3.56%
Graupner Radio/Graupner .............. 1.78%
Graupner Radio/Other RF ............... 1.42%
Turnigy/TH9X Radio ........................ 2.49%
Turnigy/TH9X Radio, Other RF ........ 3.56%
Other Radio/Same brand RF............ 0 0%
Other Radio/different RF .................. 0.36%

Of the top 5, JR owners are the ones most likely to be using a third party RF system. Approximately 32% of the JR users who responded are using a non-JR RF system. . It is possible some of these are using Spektrum modules, which work with JR receivers, and may have answered as using a non-JR module. It should be noted that there is a HUGE pool of module based JR radios out there which are easy to switch to third party RF. It should also be noted that there are more third party options for these radios than for many other brands so JR pilots would seem to have a wider range of choices. So, does this reflect dissatisfaction with the JR/Spektrum system or are pilots opting for third party system to access lower cost receivers or features not available from JR?

Futaba owners are the second most likely to be using a third party RF system. Approximately 24% of Futaba users responding are using a third party RF system. Like JR, there is a HUGE pool of module based Futaba radios out there which are easy to switch to third party RF. And, like JR, it should also be noted that there are more third part options for these radios than for many other brands so Futaba pilots have a wide range of choices. So, does this reflect dissatisfaction with the Futaba RF system or are pilots opting for third party systems to access lower cost receivers or features Futaba does not offer? As many will recall, even in the 72 MHz world, some Futaba users were using Hitec synth modules.

Hitec likewise has a very large pool of module based radios out there. However, only 2% of responding Hitec users changed to non-Hitec RF systems. Many of the third party modules made to fit Futaba radios also fit Hitec radios so Hitec users have a pretty wide choice of third party modules and options. What does that tell us about Hitec owners? Why are they less likely to switch?

Airtronics also has a large pool of module based radios, but it seems the third party module makers pay less attention to Airtronics as a market. Only about 4% of Airtronics users have switched. There are third party RF systems out there that can fit Airtronics but the choice is much more limited than for JR, Futaba or Hitec. Shall we see that as a statement by satisfied customers or the lack of options which are available to Futaba, JR and Hitec owners?

None of Spektrum's radios are module based so it is much harder to switch a Spektrum radio to a third party RF system, but there are kits that will let you make the change if you are willing to solder. We see 3% have moved to another RF system. So, are Spektrum users happy with their RF system for full house gliders or are they more locked in due to the challenge of making a change?

One listed, where third party RF exceeds the native brand, is the Turnigy/FlySky and the other labels on this radio. About 59% have changed to a third party RF system. Is the native Turnigy/FlySky system not suitable for full house gliders or did users change for options not available from the native Turnigy FlySky RF system in order to use them for full house gliders?

Edit: 9/28 - Just noted that Multiplex also has more users with third party RF than native. Sorry for the oversight. I don't have any specific comments here as I don't know the Multiplex line very well.

If anyone has comments about my analysis I would encourage you to post. I have no loyalty or vested interest in any of these systems. I am personally a Futaba user but I don’t think that really influences my analysis.

Of all of them the Hitec really sticks out in that these radio systems are just as capable of being switched to third party RF system as the other top brands, but few have done it. I will note that, when RCModelReviews did a "shoot-out" of available RF module systems, Hitec tied for first place suggesting they had an excellent RF system. You can read the report here. http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/2.4ghzshootout.shtml

So, has Hitec delivered a quality RF system AND found the right price point to keep its users loyal? My observation is that Hitec receivers are typically lower in cost than JR, Futaba or Airtronics receivers. What do you think is the reason for this apparent loyalty by Hitec users?

People pick their radio for its price and/or features typically. In the 72 MHz world you could choose from a variety of brands of receivers that would work with your native RF system. This is starting to occur in the 2.4 GHz market as well.

If you don't like the RF system in your radio, you have choices. In the 2.4 GHz world you can swap out your RF system for a different one to have access to third party receivers. And we are starting to see compatible receivers emerge so you can keep your RF system but have access to compatible receivers.

We will see how the RC Radio/RF system market evolves, but this survey has brought out some interesting results.

[rcers]

Interesting that Spektrum is so high with the 18 being the really only out of the box full house software.

Airtronics is no shocker considering the audience.

Mike

[AEAJR]

Note that you don't have to have sailplane programming to fly a full house sailplane. I can set up a full house sailplane, even an electric sailplane, on a 5 channel standard radio like the Spektrum DX5e.

And when you read the comments you see that some of these pilots are flying radios that are over 10 years old, so this is not just a refection of currently available radios.

[rcers]

Ed I consider Crow/Butterfly and camber mixes on 4 servo wings to be basic to full house. So I guess we just may have to disagree a bit. But your technically correct.

Mike